Tyrian Alliance and the story forward

[EdwinLi.1284]

Well Anet posted a reveal to the upcoming main storyline and some side lore to go with it that set up the events.


It is as expected since it is mentioned that the Kryptis Invasion did not go unnoticed and from what it is said, the invasion was so massive that it did not take long for them to be aware what was going on. The governments of the Tyrian Alliance only did not got involved in SotO simply because when they finally gather to act against the Kryptis invasion offscreen, the Commander/Wayfinder just defeated Eparch. So now the Commander/Wayfinder and the entire Astral Ward is stuck in their current situation where they are summoned to meet with all the known governments in the Tyrian Alliance to explain things to them and provide probably the lore reason for moving forward in future expansion storylines. 

So what do you all think about this development and where do you all think this may lead long term wise?

For me it is probably going to develop into just the Astral Ward organization needing to reveal a lot of secrets they been hiding long term wise involving the entire planet itself which may lead to different locations per expansion with the Tyrian Alliance now aiding the Astral Ward into regions beyond current known locations. Each situation per expansion remaining separate from each other main story wise but simply linked by Timeline placement and the Astral Ward being aware about these issues for a long time. 

[Kalavier.1097]

I don't expect there to have been any army mobilizing, as even in SOTO after the first wave the Rift Hunters continued to be sealing rifts across the shiverpeaks without too much issue.

I expect it to be more of a "Our intelligence gathering groups figured out something was going on, and that another player was actively stopping these mists based attacks before they got too bad"

[draxynnic.3719]

It could well be formalising something that's been developing for a while. We had the various races line up with the Pact in season 2, charr and humans intervening in each other's civil wars, and there's been mention of diplomatic contacts with Cantha and Elona. I'm sceptical that the norn or asura are in a position to formally join an alliance (the Arcane Council prefers to do its own thing, and the norn don't really have a government to sign treaties), but the signs of an alliance forming comprising the charr legions, human nations, Lion's Arch, and the Grove have been there for a while.

[Teknomancer.4895]

28 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm sceptical that the norn or asura are in a position to formally join an alliance (the Arcane Council prefers to do its own thing, and the norn don't really have a government to sign treaties)

You're probably right about the Norn (Knut Whitebear doesn't even try to herd his cats) but there's plenty story-wise that could be done with the Asura since they effectively control the world's economy via their transportation network.

Instead of joining an alliance, think in terms of breaking one. Suppose some rogue Asura (whether Inquest or not) figures out a way to hijack the global gate/waypoint network and blame it on the Arcane Council, the Wayfinding Commander, one of the Orders or other nations, whatever. MacGuffin Scarlet seemed to manage something similar so it's hardly implausible.

Throw in some well-placed messaging designed to stoke mistrust and voila! Instant political instability. There would be worldwide chaos and distrust as transportation grinds to a halt and lines of communication are cut (since aside from Kryptis telepathy, we've only ever seen Asura and Jade Tech remote comms capability).

Who needs dragons or demons to create a workable story scenario?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

14 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

For me it is probably going to develop into just the Astral Ward organization needing to reveal a lot of secrets they been hiding long term wise involving the entire planet itself which may lead to different locations per expansion with the Tyrian Alliance now aiding the Astral Ward into regions beyond current known locations. Each situation per expansion remaining separate from each other main story wise but simply linked by Timeline placement and the Astral Ward being aware about these issues for a long time. 

Anet has said they want these expansions to be more standalone compared to the past dragon storyline. I don't know if they will just keep going with "the astral ward reveals YET ANOTHER" big secret for multiple expansions. That just gets too repetitive and formulaic, and creates too much "previous knowledge" issues needed to understand whats going on in each future expansion.

Also, SoTO mentioned that the Astral Ward largely dealt with threats from outside Tyria, and largely left issues within Tyria to Soo-Won. Eparch and the Kryptis(SoTO), Mursaat and the Titans(Janthir Wilds) both qualify as extra planar threats. I wouldn't be surprised if the third of these new xpacks, which we know Anet is making, is focused on something like the Gods/Menzies, and creates something of an "Astral Ward trilogy" before they move onto something else.

There's not even that many dangling plot threads that need the Astral Ward to be involved with, most of the remaining big plots are things the Tyrian races already know about to some degree.

Edited July 11 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[draxynnic.3719]

I'd be sceptical they could cover everything related to the gods in one annual expansion. Menzies, maybe.

9 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

You're probably right about the Norn (Knut Whitebear doesn't even try to herd his cats) but there's plenty story-wise that could be done with the Asura since they effectively control the world's economy via their transportation network.

Instead of joining an alliance, think in terms of breaking one. Suppose some rogue Asura (whether Inquest or not) figures out a way to hijack the global gate/waypoint network and blame it on the Arcane Council, the Wayfinding Commander, one of the Orders or other nations, whatever. MacGuffin Scarlet seemed to manage something similar so it's hardly implausible.

Throw in some well-placed messaging designed to stoke mistrust and voila! Instant political instability. There would be worldwide chaos and distrust as transportation grinds to a halt and lines of communication are cut (since aside from Kryptis telepathy, we've only ever seen Asura and Jade Tech remote comms capability).

Who needs dragons or demons to create a workable story scenario?

You're basically agreeing while couching it as disagreement here? The Inquest, or even the Arcane Council (keeping in mind that the Inquest are ON the Council) causing problems for everyone else would be entirely on brand. They have a track record of thinking that they're better than everyone else and that they can solve their own problems while going their own way, and don't care much if their solutions hurt others.

To put it another way, Phlunt is the reasonable one, and we know how mercenary HE is. They thought they could hide fron the dragons in the initial story, demanded the most to attend the summit in EoD, and committed fully to allying with Jormag in EoD while everyone else was suspicious of Jormag's motives. Take away the incentive of an imminent threat, and they'll probably continue thinking they're better off not having to answer to bookahs and talking cabbages.

Which leaves the door wide open for them to precipitate the next crisis, deliberately or otherwise.

[Teknomancer.4895]

I don't think I'd characterize it as disagreement so much as just coming at it from a different direction, maybe. And based on some of the things we've seen to date, I'd bet on both deliberate and not. 😆

[EdwinLi.1284]

10 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Anet has said they want these expansions to be more standalone compared to the past dragon storyline. I don't know if they will just keep going with "the astral ward reveals YET ANOTHER" big secret for multiple expansions. That just gets too repetitive and formulaic, and creates too much "previous knowledge" issues needed to understand whats going on in each future expansion.

Also, SoTO mentioned that the Astral Ward largely dealt with threats from outside Tyria, and largely left issues within Tyria to Soo-Won. Eparch and the Kryptis(SoTO), Mursaat and the Titans(Janthir Wilds) both qualify as extra planar threats. I wouldn't be surprised if the third of these new xpacks, which we know Anet is making, is focused on something like the Gods/Menzies, and creates something of an "Astral Ward trilogy" before they move onto something else.

There's not even that many dangling plot threads that need the Astral Ward to be involved with, most of the remaining big plots are things the Tyrian races already know about to some degree.

I do not think "stand alone" is in the right term for these expansions now since we know they will still account for the Timeline when each expansion takes place.

 

The best way to describe how each expansion is from what we seen so far in SotO is that the Antagonists are all going to be Stand Alone antagonists so the story each expansion will not be related to each other since each expansion Antagonists are always defeated within each Expansion to prevent any long term plot Antagonists. However, certain aspects are going to carry over to each expansion due to the storyline needing to account for the timeline while showing long term consequences for each expansionw without needing to tie each expansion together. 

Think of it like the old GW1 way of handling the "expansions" if they never tried to tie together each expansion in Nightfall. They are Stand Alone but timeline wise they are still recognize as canon and we still see the effects of them happening long term wise so some small aspect still carry over.

Edited July 12 by EdwinLi.1284

[Fipmip.7219]

it really seems like we're heading into saturday morning cartoon villain of the week territory. I suspected this would happen with the resolution to the dragons but im fully resigned at this point. Imo they should make it so eparchs warning about the nature of his people weren't empty words and peitha starts the process of becoming a villain. And just make it so the demons are the bad for the rest of the game's life cycle. the demon realm is supposed to be a whole parallel reality after all, there's probably a ton more variety to explore there. then in the final expac we seal it off forever. in any case, I just hope the instance designers are able to get their groove back and make some cool missions.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

The nation's are armed to the teeth after all these years of conflict with elder dragons and nothing to point the weapons at. 

Making sure that peace is assured is priority NR 1 right now. 

The leaders of all the big groups coming together to talk makes total sense. 

We need a cooldown phase globally. So that everyone can recover from the dmg the Dragon's caused. 

Edited July 12 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Teknomancer.4895]

6 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

it really seems like we're heading into saturday morning cartoon villain of the week territory.

And they would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids!

[EdwinLi.1284]

5 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

The nation's are armed to the teeth after all these years of conflict with elder dragons and nothing to point the weapons at. 

Making sure that peace is assured is priority NR 1 right now. 

The leaders of all the big groups coming together to talk makes total sense. 

We need a cooldown phase globally. So that everyone can recover from the dmg the Dragon's caused. 

I honestly saw this being the result when Isgarren mentioned the Kryptis invasion was too big to go unnoticed. 

Tyria's government, atleast the ones we know about, only just got out of centuries long war against the Elder Dragons. Now they are just learning there are other World Ending threats that have been active along side the Elder Dragons coming from the Mist and the only reason they did not know about it is because this secret organization called the Astral Ward doing their best performing containment and keeping word from getting out to the majority until recently. They can no longer hide and each threat they dealt with only been growing each encounter with the only reason why the Kryptis threat being finally dealt with, though small amount still remains a threat since they still follow Eparch's ways, is by luck due to the Commander getting involved to cause events to lead to Eparch's fall. 

The only thing they can do now is just reveal the truth since they can no longer hide and everyone have eyes on them.


----------------------------------------

Speaking of future expansions.....

I wonder if Anet even remembers Doern Velazquez and his Secret Origin side plot they set up since GW2's release era.

Edited July 12 by EdwinLi.1284

[Morvran.8265]

I think it's a bad direction for the story to go in.

Having different groups and subgroups with conflicting interests make for good stories.

If everyone thinks the same and acts the same for the same goals, why do we even have different races? Or countries. "Globalism good" seems to be the entire thought process and it's straight up boring. It's also completely out of character for the individualistic norn to join something like a Tyrian alliance especially post-Jormag.

Alliance against what, anyway? I thought the Astral Ward (which was totally not shoehorned into the lore, nope) had everything under control. With an alliance like this we'll only be fighting world ending threats after JW until the end of time, and personally I'm really burnt out on that type of narrative.

They are squandering all the potential Tyrian lore had with this move, but that's nothing new. It's been the direction since 2012. I just hope GW3 ignores GW2 lore at this point.

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

I think it's a bad direction for the story to go in.

Having different groups and subgroups with conflicting interests make for good stories.

I'd love to see where an alliance of the major nations will suddenly remove all conflicting interests or any subgroups? 

4 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

If everyone thinks the same and acts the same for the same goals, why do we even have different races? Or countries. "Globalism good" seems to be the entire thought process and it's straight up boring. It's also completely out of character for the individualistic norn to join something like a Tyrian alliance especially post-Jormag.

I'd love to see where such an alliance would make everybody think the same and act the same. It's also completely out of character to assume that Norn would just reject such things "because individualistic". It also completely ignores how the Norn of Hoelbrek have evolved culturally or the massive presence of Norn in the orders, Pact, lionguard, and various pirate groups.

4 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

Alliance against what, anyway? I thought the Astral Ward (which was totally not shoehorned into the lore, nope) had everything under control. With an alliance like this we'll only be fighting world ending threats after JW until the end of time, and personally I'm really burnt out on that type of narrative.

Man, if only you had paid attention in Soto (assuming you played it) and you'd have actually seen that the Astral Ward deals with threats from the mists, not threats native to Tyria!

Also pretty sure they outright said they wouldn't be doing such massive stakes when talking about the future of GW2. Nothing about Janthir suggests world-ending threats at all.

4 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

They are squandering all the potential Tyrian lore had with this move, but that's nothing new. It's been the direction since 2012. I just hope GW3 ignores GW2 lore at this point.

Sorry to burst your GW2 hating bubble, but they won't be erasing GW2, and any hypothetical GW3 would be building off GW2. It's been 12 years since GW2 came out, should probably accept this fact and if you dislike it so much, find a new game?

[Kalavier.1097]

On 7/11/2024 at 8:55 AM, Teknomancer.4895 said:

You're probably right about the Norn (Knut Whitebear doesn't even try to herd his cats)

I mean, Knut's official control is over Hoelbrek, which is the largest norn population true. He holds influence over the other Norn but his word isn't law, he can suggest things but that's it. 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

7 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

Having different groups and subgroups with conflicting interests make for good stories.

And how does this Tyian Alliance remove the various groups and subgroups that make it up, and could possibly have differing ideals on how to take the Alliance?

7 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

If everyone thinks the same and acts the same for the same goals, why do we even have different races? Or countries. "Globalism good" seems to be the entire thought process and it's straight up boring. It's also completely out of character for the individualistic norn to join something like a Tyrian alliance especially post-Jormag.

Compared to what, the opposite message of "tribalism good"? And by this logic its out of character for Norn to join the Orders like the Priory, or Vigil. No, it isn't. Even Norn realize they have to work in hunting packs to hunt larger prey.

7 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

Alliance against what, anyway? I thought the Astral Ward (which was totally not shoehorned into the lore, nope) had everything under control. With an alliance like this we'll only be fighting world ending threats after JW until the end of time, and personally I'm really burnt out on that type of narrative.

The Astral Ward only deals with threats from outside Tyria. And there's still hordes of elder dragon minions still roaming around places like Orr and the Maguuma, the threat of the Deep Sea Monster, the Titans around Janthir, and tons of other issues Anet can make up, none of which are world ending.

[Zok.4956]

11 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

Having different groups and subgroups with conflicting interests make for good stories.

Good writing makes for good stories. In the past, stories have often tried to do too many things at once, which meant that the depth of the characters and the quality suffered. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 7/12/2024 at 12:31 AM, Fipmip.7219 said:

it really seems like we're heading into saturday morning cartoon villain of the week territory. I suspected this would happen with the resolution to the dragons but im fully resigned at this point.

And this is a bad thing?

Granted, it's more accurate to say "villain of the year" given that's how long each storyline seems will be lasting. But that's actually not all that different from how it was before. Though the villains remained part of an over-arching group - usually - over the 10 year span we dealt with:

1. Zhaitan
2. Scarlet Briar
3. Mordremoth
4. White Mantle (Caudecus / Lazarus)
5. Balthazar
6. Kralkatorrik
7. Jormag
8. Primordus
9. Ryland Steelcatcher
10. Dragonvoid

That's just talking about the end-of-storyline villains - pretty much averages out to 1 a year. So the setup is still the same as before.

And if we include "half-point villains" or other "major villains who weren't the big bad of the season" like Cerus:

1. Dungeon Bosses (Kudu / Gaheron / Huntsman)
2. Zhaitan
3. Scarlet Briar
4. Shadow of the Dragon
5. Mordremoth
6. White Mantle (Forsaken Thicket aka Sabetha / Matthias / Xera)
7. White Mantle (Caudecus / Lazarus)
8. Balthazar (LWS3)
9. Herald of Balthazar
10. Balthazar again (PoF)
11. Palawa Joko
12. Kralkatorrik
13. Bangar Ruinbringer
14. Jormag
15. Primordus
16. Ryland Steelcatcher
17. Dragonvoid

You get even more villains-of-the-plot taken down.

If you go for real villain of the week mentality - every story act and LWS episode ends with a small big bad taken down. Death-Branded Shatterer (LWS4E4), Barradin's Statue (LWS2E3), The Freanir (LWS5E1), etc. So, honestly? We've been where you talk about since the very launch of the game. Big Nose Ted says hi.

On 7/12/2024 at 12:31 AM, Fipmip.7219 said:

it really seems like we're heading into saturday morning cartoon villain of the week territory. I suspected this would happen with the resolution to the dragons but im fully resigned at this point. Imo they should make it so eparchs warning about the nature of his people weren't empty words and peitha starts the process of becoming a villain. And just make it so the demons are the bad for the rest of the game's life cycle. the demon realm is supposed to be a whole parallel reality after all, there's probably a ton more variety to explore there. then in the final expac we seal it off forever. in any case, I just hope the instance designers are able to get their groove back and make some cool missions.

While the idea of "good guy demons" is... awkward and completely contradictory to GW1 worldbuilding, it's an unfortunate common trope that's become more popularized in the past 20 years than it was back in the mid 00s.

That said, completely reverting the value of Peitha's plot is a horrible writing decision that basically says kitten you to all the build up in the SotO arc and - more importantly - the fans' opinions of it. Like or dislike it, it's never a good idea to do an unwarranted sudden 180 in a storyline.

And having a singular enemy for "the rest of the game's life cycle" is equally a terrible idea - besides you can have demon villains without it being Kryptis villains. Not all demons are Kryptis - and similarly, Nayos isn't the only demon realm, nor is Nayos "supposed to be a whole parallel reality" either. It's just a singular realm that is built off the dreams of worlds near it - a Realm of Dreams, if you will. Completely different from the Realm of the Dead, the Realm of War, or the Realm of Torment that we visited in GW1 (and technically visited in GW2 too though in smaller quantity).

And going back to "you can have demon villains without it being Kryptis villains" - Titans, at least one main antagonist of Janthir Wilds, are demons. So technically? We still have demons as the continued enemy of this part of the game's life cycle.

There's definitely more potential to explore with Nayos, but I don't want 10 years focused on just one tiny pocket of the multiverse. Personally I hope that Janthir Wilds is the last of the "mysteries of GW1 answered 20 years later" plot that ANet does, and goes into truly new storytelling. But I imagine that just as the first ten years was "revisiting GW1 space 250 years later with dragons as the overarching antagonist", from here on we'll be "revisiting GW1 plothooks and mysteries with Mists relation as the overarching antagonists".

Edited July 14 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Danikat.8537]

I never got the impression Peitha was supposed to be good. My understanding is that Kryptis morality is somewhat different from Tyrian (and real-life) morality and none of them entirely align to what we would consider good or evil, Peitha working with the Astral Ward was more a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." She's a better choice for ruler than Eparch because she's opposed to Kryptis cannibalism and forcefully invading Tyria, making her less of a threat to both Krpytis and Tyrians, but she is still a demon.

Also Kryptis are extremely long-lived compared to Tyrians so if she does get worse over time it's likely to be a very long time (centuries) in the future before it has an impact.

[Fipmip.7219]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And this is a bad thing?

Granted, it's more accurate to say "villain of the year" given that's how long each storyline seems will be lasting. But that's actually not all that different from how it was before. Though the villains remained part of an over-arching group - usually - over the 10 year span we dealt with:

1. Zhaitan
2. Scarlet Briar
3. Mordremoth
4. White Mantle (Caudecus / Lazarus)
5. Balthazar
6. Kralkatorrik
7. Jormag
8. Primordus
9. Ryland Steelcatcher
10. Dragonvoid

That's just talking about the end-of-storyline villains - pretty much averages out to 1 a year. So the setup is still the same as before.

And if we include "half-point villains" or other "major villains who weren't the big bad of the season" like Cerus:

1. Dungeon Bosses (Kudu / Gaheron / Huntsman)
2. Zhaitan
3. Scarlet Briar
4. Shadow of the Dragon
5. Mordremoth
6. White Mantle (Forsaken Thicket aka Sabetha / Matthias / Xera)
7. White Mantle (Caudecus / Lazarus)
8. Balthazar (LWS3)
9. Herald of Balthazar
10. Balthazar again (PoF)
11. Palawa Joko
12. Kralkatorrik
13. Bangar Ruinbringer
14. Jormag
15. Primordus
16. Ryland Steelcatcher
17. Dragonvoid

You get even more villains-of-the-plot taken down.

If you go for real villain of the week mentality - every story act and LWS episode ends with a small big bad taken down. Death-Branded Shatterer (LWS4E4), Barradin's Statue (LWS2E3), The Freanir (LWS5E1), etc. So, honestly? We've been where you talk about since the very launch of the game. Big Nose Ted says hi.

While the idea of "good guy demons" is... awkward and completely contradictory to GW1 worldbuilding, it's an unfortunate common trope that's become more popularized in the past 20 years than it was back in the mid 00s.

That said, completely reverting the value of Peitha's plot is a horrible writing decision that basically says kitten you to all the build up in the SotO arc and - more importantly - the fans' opinions of it. Like or dislike it, it's never a good idea to do an unwarranted sudden 180 in a storyline.

And having a singular enemy for "the rest of the game's life cycle" is equally a terrible idea - besides you can have demon villains without it being Kryptis villains. Not all demons are Kryptis - and similarly, Nayos isn't the only demon realm, nor is Nayos "supposed to be a whole parallel reality" either. It's just a singular realm that is built off the dreams of worlds near it - a Realm of Dreams, if you will. Completely different from the Realm of the Dead, the Realm of War, or the Realm of Torment that we visited in GW1 (and technically visited in GW2 too though in smaller quantity).

And going back to "you can have demon villains without it being Kryptis villains" - Titans, at least one main antagonist of Janthir Wilds, are demons. So technically? We still have demons as the continued enemy of this part of the game's life cycle.

There's definitely more potential to explore with Nayos, but I don't want 10 years focused on just one tiny pocket of the multiverse. Personally I hope that Janthir Wilds is the last of the "mysteries of GW1 answered 20 years later" plot that ANet does, and goes into truly new storytelling. But I imagine that just as the first ten years was "revisiting GW1 space 250 years later with dragons as the overarching antagonist", from here on we'll be "revisiting GW1 plothooks and mysteries with Mists relation as the overarching antagonists".

It feels bad when there's nothing that ties them together. all the villians you put on that list, 5 are the dragons themselves and three are in service to them. and balthazar's motivations were to destroy the dragons. now they're gone, something needs to remain in the background to fill that void in order to have a story. otherwise they are disconnected. hence feeling like whack a mole with various villains springing from nowhere.

That being said, i didnt know about the demon tie into janthir so if that pans out, then maybe we've got something.

as for peitha, her involvement overthrowing eparch builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again? characters can develop their motivations and beliefs over time. it's called character development. maybe not right away, but if written well, it would be good storytelling. in any case, demons dont need to be the enemy every time, much like the dragons and their minions weren't the subject of every expansion - they were the backdrop of the story, and now the demons can be that.

I called the demon realm a parallel reality because that's a quote from the game. your point about there being other realms within it is exactly what I had in mind - so we agree on that.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

47 minutes ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

It feels bad when there's nothing that ties them together.

If anything, it feels bad when every villain in a long running game series is tied together. Look at the real world, how many totally disconnected entities are out there causing issues? A lot. Why would a fantasy world be any different? Tying everyone together endlessly just creates the World of Warcraft Jailer situation where some guy was behind the guy, who was behind the guy, who was behind the guy, who was behind the guy..... etc. etc.

A realistic and believable world has tons of unrelated issues going on all over the place.

2 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I never got the impression Peitha was supposed to be good. My understanding is that Kryptis morality is somewhat different from Tyrian (and real-life) morality and none of them entirely align to what we would consider good or evil, Peitha working with the Astral Ward was more a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." She's a better choice for ruler than Eparch because she's opposed to Kryptis cannibalism and forcefully invading Tyria, making her less of a threat to both Krpytis and Tyrians, but she is still a demon.

Also Kryptis are extremely long-lived compared to Tyrians so if she does get worse over time it's likely to be a very long time (centuries) in the future before it has an impact.

Yeah, Peitha is clearly not a "good" person, and the game points it out. she invades people's minds without permission, violently betrayed her brother and helped in his murder, and manipulated Nephus into her forces against his will. These are not the actions of a "good" person. Shes just not cannibalistic, and doesn't want to invade Tyria.

[Fipmip.7219]

35 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

If anything, it feels bad when every villain in a long running game series is tied together. Look at the real world, how many totally disconnected entities are out there causing issues? A lot. Why would a fantasy world be any different? Tying everyone together endlessly just creates the World of Warcraft Jailer situation where some guy was behind the guy, who was behind the guy, who was behind the guy, who was behind the guy..... etc. etc.

A realistic and believable world has tons of unrelated issues going on all over the place.

You mean the real world? the real world where every bad guy is dealt with by one guy? Having an overarching plot gives focus to our character. the villains we defeat along the way are in service to resolving that plot. and you can do that without doing whatever wow does. you say its more realistic to have unrelated issues all over the place, but there's nothing to suggest that isnt the case. they are just dealt with by other people.

[Kalavier.1097]

2 minutes ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

You mean the real world? the real world where every bad guy is dealt with by one guy? Having an overarching plot gives focus to our character. the villains we defeat along the way are in service to resolving that plot. and you can do that without doing whatever wow does. you say its more realistic to have unrelated issues all over the place, but there's nothing to suggest that isnt the case. they are just dealt with by other people.

The point is when you constantly try to make everything link together, you run into issues. A common one is "BUT WAIT, I'M IN SERVICE OF A GREATER BAD GUY!" or "But I was trying to prepare the world/stop this greater bad guy!" which just escalates upwards. That's what WoW ran into, and then smashed both those things together with the Jailer by trying to basically link EVERYTHING to him.

[Fipmip.7219]

23 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The point is when you constantly try to make everything link together, you run into issues. A common one is "BUT WAIT, I'M IN SERVICE OF A GREATER BAD GUY!" or "But I was trying to prepare the world/stop this greater bad guy!" which just escalates upwards. That's what WoW ran into, and then smashed both those things together with the Jailer by trying to basically link EVERYTHING to him.

we had a greater bad guy since the start of the game, the dragons. it certainly didnt feel the way you described. there were many villains, and they were all mostly related to the dragons that were established early on. what they should do is set up a new backdrop, and a new path towards an eventual goal. with that established, the story has a foundation on which to march forwards.

[draxynnic.3719]

As a few people have said, the existence of an alliance does not mean that tensions within an alliance disappear altogether, even with the presence of a common enemy. We see plenty of examples of this in the real world.

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

While the idea of "good guy demons" is... awkward and completely contradictory to GW1 worldbuilding, it's an unfortunate common trope that's become more popularized in the past 20 years than it was back in the mid 00s.

I don't think this is entirely true... or if it is it's only true in a semantic sense. Razah was essentially a demon that we got to before he turned from evil, just to give one example. The semantic sense is that in GW1, it was fairly clear that creatures from the Mists could be both good and evil (although the latter seemed to outnumber the former) and that the label 'demon' was specifically applied to those that were considered to be evil. In that sense, the idea of "good guy demons" is contradictory to GW1 worldbuilding, but not in a way that makes the Kryptis shifting their attitude contradictory - instead, according to the GW1 terminology, Kryptis that have reformed would no longer be demons.