In your opinion, should the Revenant's spear be a power or condi based weapon?

[Asgarow.8271]

As a rev main, I was as disappointed as everyone else by the revenant's spear. The purpose of this post is not to go again into detail of all the problems that plague it, there are enough posts on that subject.

I'd like to focus on a point that comes up a lot: the fact that the spear is a condi based weapon. I've seen many people say that a power based spear would have been a better choice. I'm one of those people who prefer a power based spear over a condi based one, especially seeing that the only damaging condition is torment.

I just want to know the feeling of revenant players on this specific point.

Edited July 15 by Asgarow.8271

[arazoth.7290]

It could work perfect as hybrid weapon if they focus a little bit more on it, like here my suggestion for hybrid======>

 

Rev spear has too long cast times on skill 1,2,4,5,  these need each 0,5 sec cast time. Since spear abilties will be used little more then other weapons skills, it has to be smooth fast enough and not slow.

Because of this the spear skills need lower energy cost.

 

 

Some larger radius on all abilties, should atleast be 240 and not 180.

600 range still looks too short if even these below get put in, so 900 range atleast.

• Auto attack: It could use more conditions like vulnerability on autos together with the torments each auto. For more condi hybrid weapon cover.

•Skill 2: Some weakness conditions on skill 2 added for more condi cover and defense.

 

•Skill 3: Longer/further evade on skill 3 with few more orbs.

Add even a 2nd ability that allows you to place the orbs at a different location which also triggers it because you moved them 

•Skill 4: Let it pulse chill conditions and not only in the end. 

If cast times are made faster, the end pulse pull will be more reliable too.

•Skill 5: Torment, poison and vulnerability conditions on skill 5. If 3 stacks max are reached, they gett applied like 3 torment, 3 poison and 3 vulnerability.

You gain stacks of abyss if a target is struck, max 1 stack and it stacks up to 3 max.

[arazoth.7290]

Just now, arazoth.7290 said:

It could work perfect as hybrid weapon if they focus a little bit more on it, like here my suggestion for hybrid======>

 

Rev spear has too long cast times on skill 1,2,4,5,  these need each 0,5 sec cast time. Since spear abilties will be used little more then other weapons skills, it has to be smooth fast enough and not slow.

Because of this the spear skills need lower energy cost.

 

 

Some larger radius on all abilties, should atleast be 240 and not 180.

600 range still looks too short if even these below get put in, so 900 range atleast.

• Auto attack: It could use more conditions like vulnerability on autos together with the torments each auto. For more condi hybrid weapon cover.

•Skill 2: Some weakness conditions on skill 2 added for more condi cover and defense.

 

•Skill 3: Longer/further evade on skill 3 with few more orbs.

Add even a 2nd ability that allows you to place the orbs at a different location which also triggers it because you moved them 

•Skill 4: Let it pulse chill conditions and not only in the end. 

If cast times are made faster, the end pulse pull will be more reliable too.

•Skill 5: Torment, poison and vulnerability conditions on skill 5. If 3 stacks max are reached, they gett applied like 3 torment, 3 poison and 3 vulnerability.

You gain stacks of abyss if a target is struck, max 1 stack and it stacks up to 3 max.

In short, for me it should be a hybrid*

[draxynnic.3719]

I wouldn't commit to saying condi over hybrid, but I would note that there are three DPS power options (sword, greatsword, hammer) and two support weapons that are power-oriented for the damage they do (staff, sceptre), but there are only two condi weapons (mace, shortbow, with the latter being a hybrid). So a condi weapon makes sense.

Revspear's issues are broader design problems, not a matter of power versus conditions.

[Shagie.7612]

I know a lot of people want a power spear because of Archemorus, but where would it fit in? Hammer's finally good as a ranged power weapon and has 1200 range(while spear will probably go to 900), greatsword covers 2h melee power and sword covers the 1h/offhand flexibility for power.

On the flip side, as a ranged condi weapon, shortbow and spear step on one another's toes, when the 2h melee niche was wide open for it as the condi counterpart to greatsword.

More than damage type, what's it even supposed to accomplish?

 

[Asgarow.8271]

4 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I know a lot of people want a power spear because of Archemorus, but where would it fit in? Hammer's finally good as a ranged power weapon and has 1200 range(while spear will probably go to 900), greatsword covers 2h melee power and sword covers the 1h/offhand flexibility for power.

On the flip side, as a ranged condi weapon, shortbow and spear step on one another's toes, when the 2h melee niche was wide open for it as the condi counterpart to greatsword.

More than damage type, what's it even supposed to accomplish?

 

17 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I wouldn't commit to saying condi over hybrid, but I would note that there are three DPS power options (sword, greatsword, hammer) and two support weapons that are power-oriented for the damage they do (staff, sceptre), but there are only two condi weapons (mace, shortbow, with the latter being a hybrid). So a condi weapon makes sense.

Revspear's issues are broader design problems, not a matter of power versus conditions.

I totally agree with both of you : the real problem is not a power vs condi option, as the design of the spear in itself is flawed, at least in its current state. 

I was asking this question as a more chill topic just to know the feeling of revenant players about the damage type of the spear. But of course, it's a side-topic given the real problems this weapon currently has.

[Shagie.7612]

3 minutes ago, Asgarow.8271 said:

I was asking this question as a more chill topic just to know the feeling of revenant players about the damage type of the spear.

Personally I'd have liked a replacement for Mace/Shield for non-Herald condi builds in PvP/WvW.
Shield is your best choice regardless because staff loses you all pressure, but it feels pretty lame on Core, Renegade and Vindicator because you can't get the cleanse trait.

Given Greatsword having a decent PvP kit while still being PvE viable, they could have done the same with spear for condition builds.

 

[Jobber.6348]

I just want to say:

If it wants to do anything as a Condi weapon even Hybrid, it needs more cover conditions. 

Having pure Torment, no Fields, no Combos and no cover conditions is just garbage. And if it's hybrid, it's already dead because it'll just be a flaccid Power weapon with non sticking Conditions. 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

The spear should have been a melee centric condi weapon to compliment mace/ax combo, just like greatsword was a power weapon that compliments sword/sword.

We didn't need another ranged condi weapon we already have the shortbow and no matter of copium is going to change the fact the bow will be better than the current iteration of the spear.

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

Why does everyone want a melee weapon? They want another negative on top of what they already have? If Anet actually balanced melee vs ranged and melee was strong due to “risk”, then I can see the argument. At the moment ranged weapons are just better. You get the flexibility of doing damage at range and losing nothing in melee. Especially on a weapon that basically has 0 facing requirements and almost none of it is projectile based. Everything is played melee in pve regardless of the weapons ranged capabilities due to the meta gameplay and how heals and boons are distributed. But when there are spread mechanics, I’m glad I’m already on, or timed a swap with that phase in order to continue doing damage. And when it comes to the pvp modes, do you really want to be kited around. The spear has really bad energy economy and probably will continue to if they stick with this building mechanic. Do you really want to add Shiro port or mallyx leap costs on top of it? 
 

regardless the weapon needs a rework, but I highly doubt they’ll add new skills or change animations. Kitten were probably still stuck with the awful “building in power” theme they wanted. They’ll just tweak cooldowns, maybe add a condi, and reduce an energy cost and call it a day.

 

Sorry for the thread detour… I just never understand the desire for a melee weapon. Especially when all ranged weapons can be played as melee weapons, even more so with some spears getting split autos to support that gameplay.

[Jobber.6348]

8 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

The spear should have been a melee centric condi weapon to compliment mace/ax combo, just like greatsword was a power weapon that compliments sword/sword.

We didn't need another ranged condi weapon we already have the shortbow and no matter of copium is going to change the fact the bow will be better than the current iteration of the spear.

Range is irrelevant as long as it has enough cleaving via skills and such. Melee weapons are essentially only important if they are Power based weapons because those usually has much higher scaling than Ranged Power weapons. 

Condition weapons on the other hand is about how good it is at keeping the Conditions ticking, which usually means utilizing two swaps with good rotation of Condition skills to apply their Conditions and move on, not Auto camping which you may want to fill with a Melee weapon which has high coefficients on their Auto chain. So ultimately, doesn't matter, not the point. 

Spear needs, above all, not to suck in Condition application compared to Shortbow. Mace itself already giga suck because its buddy and abusive partner is Axe and Axe 4 which Anet is trying to force us to use but realistically everyone is like "please don't make me use this in PvE, I will actually literally die in a Raid if I have to use this and go off stack"  

Edited July 15 by Jobber.6348

[draxynnic.3719]

20 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I know a lot of people want a power spear because of Archemorus, but where would it fit in? Hammer's finally good as a ranged power weapon and has 1200 range(while spear will probably go to 900), greatsword covers 2h melee power and sword covers the 1h/offhand flexibility for power.

On the flip side, as a ranged condi weapon, shortbow and spear step on one another's toes, when the 2h melee niche was wide open for it as the condi counterpart to greatsword.

More than damage type, what's it even supposed to accomplish?

 

By this logic, we didn't need greatsword because swords already existed as a power melee set. I can think of a number of reasons to introduce supposedly 'redundant' options:

1) Different utility, so they shine in different situations or in combinations with other skills;

2) The option to have a build that has both if you really want to commit to what the two sets share;

3) Actually building redundancy - if one weapon is overnerfed, people can switch to the other (which also sends a signal to the devs - if everyone is using a B-grade weapon over a D-grade weapon, that indicates there's a problem better than if people are still reluctantly using the D-grade weapon because there's no alternative);

4) Simple variety. Someone might be bored of a particular weapon, or hate it for reasons of personal taste and would prefer something else.

7 hours ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

Why does everyone want a melee weapon? They want another negative on top of what they already have? If Anet actually balanced melee vs ranged and melee was strong due to “risk”, then I can see the argument. At the moment ranged weapons are just better. You get the flexibility of doing damage at range and losing nothing in melee. Especially on a weapon that basically has 0 facing requirements and almost none of it is projectile based. Everything is played melee in pve regardless of the weapons ranged capabilities due to the meta gameplay and how heals and boons are distributed. But when there are spread mechanics, I’m glad I’m already on, or timed a swap with that phase in order to continue doing damage. And when it comes to the pvp modes, do you really want to be kited around. The spear has really bad energy economy and probably will continue to if they stick with this building mechanic. Do you really want to add Shiro port or mallyx leap costs on top of it? 
 

regardless the weapon needs a rework, but I highly doubt they’ll add new skills or change animations. Kitten were probably still stuck with the awful “building in power” theme they wanted. They’ll just tweak cooldowns, maybe add a condi, and reduce an energy cost and call it a day.

 

Sorry for the thread detour… I just never understand the desire for a melee weapon. Especially when all ranged weapons can be played as melee weapons, even more so with some spears getting split autos to support that gameplay.

If you go through the builds, in most cases the melee weapons do outDPS the ranged ones. The exceptions come in three broad categories:

1) No melee weapon exists for the build (condi necros, condi virtuoso);

2) The melee weapon trades range for survivability instead of damage (power mesmers... until spear arrives, anyway);

3) The ranged weapon powercrept the melee weapon (guardian pistol, common on elementalist at the moment too, although in both of these examples the builds tend to lose a lot of damage when not in melee).

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

On 7/15/2024 at 4:24 AM, Shagie.7612 said:

I know a lot of people want a power spear because of Archemorus, but where would it fit in? Hammer's finally good as a ranged power weapon and has 1200 range(while spear will probably go to 900), greatsword covers 2h melee power and sword covers the 1h/offhand flexibility for power.

On the flip side, as a ranged condi weapon, shortbow and spear step on one another's toes, when the 2h melee niche was wide open for it as the condi counterpart to greatsword.

More than damage type, what's it even supposed to accomplish?

 

No a lot of people want condi spear. We got two solid power weapons GS and sword sword. We don't have a decent solid condi weapon to pair with mace/ax.

[Jobber.6348]

16 hours ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

Sorry for the thread detour… I just never understand the desire for a melee weapon. Especially when all ranged weapons can be played as melee weapons, even more so with some spears getting split autos to support that gameplay.

I'll tell you why people clamour for Power and Melee: They want to roleplay Dragoon from FF14. That's literally it. 

Had to roll my eyes when reading through reddit about their disappointment that it's Condi and semi-ranged and cry about MUH FANTASY. Like bro just go back and play 14. 

We need a good Condi set and it needs to be better than Shortbow. Need a good pair with Mace/Axe for PvE and we can just leave Shortbow for competitive. As it is now, Spear is so slow that it can't possibly compete even with Shortbow based on the beta numbers. It's shameful how the spear was so weak ontop of being slower than grandma. 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

32 minutes ago, Jobber.6348 said:

I'll tell you why people clamour for Power and Melee: They want to roleplay Dragoon from FF14. That's literally it. 

Had to roll my eyes when reading through reddit about their disappointment that it's Condi and semi-ranged and cry about MUH FANTASY. Like bro just go back and play 14. 

We need a good Condi set and it needs to be better than Shortbow. Need a good pair with Mace/Axe for PvE and we can just leave Shortbow for competitive. As it is now, Spear is so slow that it can't possibly compete even with Shortbow based on the beta numbers. It's shameful how the spear was so weak ontop of being slower than grandma. 

Honestly, it just continues to reinforce my belief that the current powers and skills team has no respect for revenants. The constant hammering with nerfs and strange "reworks" lately have done little to assuage my feelings of that. Never mind the weird "death knight/dark knight" style graphics lately that have little to do with mist powers.

Edited July 16 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

I'll tell you why people clamour for Power and Melee: They want to roleplay Dragoon from FF14. That's literally it. 

Had to roll my eyes when reading through reddit about their disappointment that it's Condi and semi-ranged and cry about MUH FANTASY. Like bro just go back and play 14. 

We need a good Condi set and it needs to be better than Shortbow. Need a good pair with Mace/Axe for PvE and we can just leave Shortbow for competitive. As it is now, Spear is so slow that it can't possibly compete even with Shortbow based on the beta numbers. It's shameful how the spear was so weak ontop of being slower than grandma. 

To be fair, a melee spear would make sense as a vindicator weapon even if you ignored Archemorus.

Mind you, so does greatsword.

14 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Honestly, it just continues to reinforce my belief that the current powers and skills team has no respect for revenants. The constant hammering with nerfs and strange "reworks" lately have done little to assuage my feelings of that. Never mind the weird "death knight/dark knight" style graphics lately that have little to do with mist powers.

Yeah, I've pretty much ended up putting mine on the backburner for the time being. Might be my first character through Janthir Wilds, though. Why? Because I won't miss spear while I'm in the process of getting the spear mastery if I'm playing revenant.

[Angesombre.4630]

In any case, if the spear remains in the same lamentable state, not to say kitten. It will remain just another useless thing after the sceptre (which also has negative feedback in general) and a revenant community dissatisfaction. Even a loss of sales for the extension. 

But then again, Anet doesn't seem to give a kitten about her community. They ask for our opinion and they don't give a kitten.

Yet Anet has already managed to make support weapons and hybrid weapons like the thief's axe for example, although I don't know if it's played in many modes.

Edited July 17 by Angesombre.4630

[Tobias.4975]

13 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

In any case, if the spear remains in the same lamentable state, not to say kitten. It will remain just another useless thing after the sceptre (which also has negative feedback in general) and a revenant community dissatisfaction. Even a loss of sales for the extension. 

But then again, Anet doesn't seem to give a kitten about her community. They ask for our opinion and they don't give a kitten.

Yet Anet has already managed to make support weapons and hybrid weapons like the thief's axe for example, although I don't know if it's played in many modes.

Scepter on Rev isn't fully useless, it's underwhelming and clunky, but as healsupport better then mace, since they nerfed it. 

So I'm waiting for the shortbow-nerfs, then they force us again to play the new weapon...

True, they wanted our feedback, but what's the meaning behind it, if they don't change anything. To be fair, they remove the upkeep on scepter 3. But that was all!

Sometimes it seems to me that there is no one in the dev-team that played or has even any clue about the revenant, not to mention what it is. It's a bit ironic they created something, but don't know what and what to do with it.

Maybe it's the point that it is the "blue class-syndrom", too, but I can't judge that.

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Tobias.4975 said:

Scepter on Rev isn't fully useless, it's underwhelming and clunky, but as healsupport better then mace, since they nerfed it. 

This just exacerbates the situation, though - when you make a bad weapon and then nerf the competing weapon to try to force people to use it, this makes it feel even worse than if they'd just made a bad weapon and abandoned it. Since the latter case is at least doing no harm and was just a missed opportunity, while the forming is actively making the profession as a whole less functional due to the bad weapon existing. 

[mirage.8046]

Spear is awful for... the same reasons why scepter was also awful, except spear is not a support weapon: it has poor condi variety; its AA is so slow you can't even use that without quickness or stability covering the cast time. The aesthetics are the only feature that makes spear look attractive IMO. 

There's also zero reason to nerf any existing weapon to make people use the new weapon; it's a terrible precedent for future weapons being added to classes. It's a different story when existing weapons are overperforming, but serviceable weapons that get unnecessarily nerfed for a new one do not give players faith in the devs.

[Buran.3796]

On 7/17/2024 at 9:40 PM, Tobias.4975 said:

Scepter on Rev isn't fully useless, it's underwhelming and clunky, but as healsupport better then mace, since they nerfed it. 

  Scepter and then the spear beta helped me to chose to not buy the JW expansion so yes, had some utility. They have been a cautionary tale and eye opening reveals about what I can expect from the game and what the game can expect from me.

[arazoth.7290]

19 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Scepter and then the spear beta helped me to chose to not buy the JW expansion so yes, had some utility. They have been a cautionary tale and eye opening reveals about what I can expect from the game and what the game can expect from me.

buttt butttttt homesteadsss 🥺

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

buttt butttttt homesteadsss 🥺

  I was expecting homing for EoD; I no longer care.  

[Mike.7983]

Would have loved power or hybrid honestly, any hopes of a vindicator "dragoon" aka FF series lance/spear with jump spams died soon as it came out a condi wep.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

34 minutes ago, Mike.7983 said:

Would have loved power or hybrid honestly, any hopes of a vindicator "dragoon" aka FF series lance/spear with jump spams died soon as it came out a condi wep.

We got enough power weapons, we are lacking condition weapons. And shortbow is already hybrid. Go use the superior weapon there for that. I want something to pair with mace/ax.