Bring up Demolisher, Paladin and Tyrant stats to PvE...

[Buran.3796]

33 minutes ago, Parasite.5389 said:

...

All these sets use Core prefixes that are available in Ascended quality; values don't account for additional stats from runes or Infusions which would allow more fine tuning to reach your desired values.

  I've been trying solo power builds recently (mostly Vindicator) trying to reach 1800 armor and 50% crit chance (to cap it with fury & traits) and ~205% crit damage. In order to get those numbers I mix up 8 marauder pieces (weapon + armor), 4 knight trinkets, dragon amulet and one cavalier ear ring:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAEVlZSMsTqjhScsUyjpSksSigJ/lasC-DShYiRFbOoAjgcPCC6QKUBkpUoXRgM/PkAB2D3PkEwDA-e

   The problem is that using 3 stat pieces (knight, cavalier) means giving up stats compared to 4 stat pieces (~8%) If I want power + health (with marauder or dragon) I don't lose that points, but if I want toughness I have to bleed some points. Then, is celestial to make fun of both.

   Anayway, that was my request, but if ANet doesn't want to do it won't change anything:  after 2 weeks trying marauder/dragon vs viper vs grieving I already moved back to celestial. Power builds are nice in groups and sometimes in PvP, but for solo play don't stand a chance vs cele.

[SeTect.5918]

3 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

So rather than adding these Prefixes to PvE; can you actually get the same stats using existing PvE prefixes?

Surprisingly, Yes, with a little bit of effort you can already repilcate these stat combinations (+/- a few points here or there).
However it should be noted that PvP stat combinations are generally slightly lower than their PvE counterparts E.g. the power stat for Berserker armor in PvP is 2200, Vs 2361 in PvE

With that said, lets start with the Demolisher;
in PVP you'll have the following stats:

• Power:  2000
• toughness: 1500
• vitality: 1000
• precision: 2000
• ferocity: 500
• condidtion damage: 0

these stats can be replicated in PvE using Assassins Weapons+Back piece, Berserker armor, and Knights trinkets, giving us out final stats of:

• Power:  2085
• toughness: 1629
• vitality: 1000
• precision: 2054
• ferocity: 535
• condidtion damage: 0

 

While I agree you can get somewhat the same stats in pve with knights, cavaliers, Assassins and berserkers, your calculation didnt fully go up there.

PvP amulets have less stats than PvE armor.

Demolishers would likely have the same amount of stat points of marauders which would look like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POQAI+AA-DSJYiRBPAA-e

So basically it would be

2172 Power, 2172 preci, 1633 toughness and 633 fero.

Which is better than the Mixture you did, even tho it comes somewhat close to this.

 

The reason why a Mixture of stats is worse than full demolishers is because 3-stat combos have less stats than 4-stat combos. 

For example:

an ascended Berserkers earring has 110 Power, 74 preci and 74 fero, which makes a total of 258 stat points.

an ascended marauders earring has 92 Power, 92 preci, 49 Vita and 49 fero, which are a total of 282 points.

Thats why mixing stats with 3-stat combos isnt as effective as a 4-stat combo which gives the exact stats you want to achieve.

 

Its still a good option you mentioned there tho.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

I agree with this.

 

It would make a nice change instead of defaulting to celestial/trailblazer when doing OW stuff.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 8/7/2024 at 4:54 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

To be honest, we need less stats in PvE, not more. Most of them (especially most of the stat sets promoting survivability through stats, not through skill use/paying attention) not only have only extremely limited use (or no use at all), but are actually damaging because they encourage bad playing habits.

Okay, but can we have them in WvW please?

[Astralporing.1957]

13 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Okay, but can we have them in WvW please?

That would require some kind of stat separation between PvE and WvW (like it already exists for SPvP), but sure, why not? Some of those stat sets are clearly meant for PvP modes only anyway.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That would require some kind of stat separation between PvE and WvW (like it already exists for SPvP), but sure, why not? Some of those stat sets are clearly meant for PvP modes only anyway.

Nah, we don't need that stat separation in WvW. Don't bring up boons, we need more and better boon rips is all.

[Panda.1967]

On 8/7/2024 at 3:54 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

To be honest, we need less stats in PvE, not more. Most of them (especially most of the stat sets promoting survivability through stats, not through skill use/paying attention) not only have only extremely limited use (or no use at all), but are actually damaging because they encourage bad playing habits.

No, we need more. Being optimal or not doesn’t matter, and WvW is a thing too where these defensive stats are more valuable. Also, despite how niche they may be, there actually are a few PvE builds that do infact utilize those defensive stats. Elementalist and Revenant in particular have some build options that can turn Toughness into a sizable offensive boost. Most classes can also convert Vitality into an offensive or support stat too… so having more options to stack these stats with more offensive or support focused stat combos is actually a goof thing for these builds. Having such stats combos in PvE may even increase the use of such builds too, or even see all new builds made using those stats and traits.

Edited August 16 by Panda.1967

[Alcatraznc.3869]

23 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That would require some kind of stat separation between PvE and WvW (like it already exists for SPvP), but sure, why not? Some of those stat sets are clearly meant for PvP modes only anyway.

 

Why would we need stat separation for WvW and PvE exactly ? WvW is a mix of PvE and PvP, it wouldnt make sense for it to have separated stats. Unless you're only looking at the PvP aspect - in which case SPvP exist already - I dont see any reason for it to be applied.

 

Also I am curious what stats set you think are made exclusively for PvP. I cant really think of any reason why I wouldnt want to have these stat in PvE if I can

[SeTect.5918]

On 8/7/2024 at 10:54 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

To be honest, we need less stats in PvE, not more. Most of them (especially most of the stat sets promoting survivability through stats, not through skill use/paying attention) not only have only extremely limited use (or no use at all), but are actually damaging because they encourage bad playing habits.

For power classes, we definitely need more. 

Even if we didnt have celestial stats, condi would still perform far better in solo play just because of trailblazers. 

Power needs good 4 stat combinations too. Or maybe even invent 5 stat combinations with power,  preci, fero, toughness and concentration. 

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Why would we need stat separation for WvW and PvE exactly ? WvW is a mix of PvE and PvP, it wouldnt make sense for it to have separated stats. Unless you're only looking at the PvP aspect - in which case SPvP exist already - I dont see any reason for it to be applied.

 

Also I am curious what stats set you think are made exclusively for PvP. I cant really think of any reason why I wouldnt want to have these stat in PvE if I can

I think i have explained myself well enough in my previous posts. I don't see a reason why i should do it again, but you can, of course, go back and read what i wrote before. Assuming you care.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I think i have explained myself well enough in my previous posts. I don't see a reason why i should do it again, but you can, of course, go back and read what i wrote before. Assuming you care.

 

You only said it promote bad habbit which is totally false. You didnt provide any explanation. So I ask again assuming you actually have any valid explanation to provide.

[Panda.1967]

2 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

You only said it promote bad habbit which is totally false. You didnt provide any explanation. So I ask again assuming you actually have any valid explanation to provide.

They seem to think, playing non-meta builds = bad habit. Poor build choices are not bad habits, but issues of optimization, and in most PvE content doesn’t matter all that much. Also, just because it’s not meta does not mean it’s not good, there are plenty of build possibilities that can perform as good as or even potentially better than the meta builds. Keep in mind, the concept of “what is meta” is often controlled by a small group of individual players who actively curate the build websites.

Edited August 17 by Panda.1967

[lodjur.1284]

We badly need more stat combos, in particular for WvW, here are some that I would love, big letters are primary stats, small letters secondary

 

Demolisher

 

Power, Ferocity, vit, toughness

 

Power, Toughness, conc, ferocity

 

Power, conc, fero

 

In general more power+ferocity combos without precision would be great. More with Power and Toughness

 

Condi, Vit, toughness, expertise

 

Condi, Conc, vit, tough

 

Condi, Exp, tough, vit

Edited August 17 by lodjur.1284

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 8/17/2024 at 7:20 AM, Panda.1967 said:

They seem to think, playing non-meta builds = bad habit. Poor build choices are not bad habits, but issues of optimization, and in most PvE content doesn’t matter all that much. Also, just because it’s not meta does not mean it’s not good, there are plenty of build possibilities that can perform as good as or even potentially better than the meta builds. Keep in mind, the concept of “what is meta” is often controlled by a small group of individual players who actively curate the build websites.

There's a strong element of preference in solo play.  With no group relying on you, there really isn't a "wrong" way of approaching it as long as the build does what you want it to do.  However, for those same reasons a bias naturally develops with the player likely unaware that there could be a better way to achieve their goals.

I think newer players tend to have a bias toward excessive levels of sustain.  It's more forgiving of mistakes and if it gets the job done is there a problem?  But what they may not realize is that after a certain point (and this can depend on many variables), they may actually be making things more difficult for themselves.  Not because of bad habits, but because it can be difficult to discern the balance between sustain and damage.

What I mean by that is the value of sustain in general as well as any particular sustain trait, skill, or stat is dependent upon many factors and is not constant.  Its easy to think that if you're dying to high pressure enemies the sensible solution is to increase sustain.  But often for less experienced players it's the opposite.  They're struggling because they sacrifice too much damage for sustain when placing a higher priority on damage would help them to get more value out of their sustain.

Of course, this is really something you have to learn from experience, but if you get stuck in your comfort zone you may never learn and grow.  Which is fine.  It's just a game, of course.  But you can't blame other players for trying to show others a potentially better way.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

20 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

There's a strong element of preference in solo play.  With no group relying on you, there really isn't a "wrong" way of approaching it as long as the build does what you want it to do.  However, for those same reasons a bias naturally develops with the player likely unaware that there could be a better way to achieve their goals.

I think newer players tend to have a bias toward excessive levels of sustain.  It's more forgiving of mistakes and if it gets the job done is there a problem?  But what they may not realize is that after a certain point (and this can depend on many variables), they may actually be making things more difficult for themselves.  Not because of bad habits, but because it can be difficult to discern the balance between sustain and damage.

What I mean by that is the value of sustain in general as well as any particular sustain trait, skill, or stat is dependent upon many factors and is not constant.  Its easy to think that if you're dying to high pressure enemies the sensible solution is to increase sustain.  But often for less experienced players it's the opposite.  They're struggling because they sacrifice too much damage for sustain when placing a higher priority on damage would help them to get more value out of their sustain.

Of course, this is really something you have to learn from experience, but if you get stuck in your comfort zone you may never learn and grow.  Which is fine.  It's just a game, of course.  But you can't blame other players for trying to show others a potentially better way.

From my experience it's not really it.

 

People just dont know why they are building some stuff that way. I see many people look at solo OW build, see it's full celestial and then ask if this same build would work in a group play. Technically yes, celestial can play in group content, I think Teapot managed to clear raids with a team filled with nothing but celestial build. But in group content you will have dedicated DPS, dedicated healer and dedicated boon support (usually one healer + quickness/alacrity and the other fills the lacking element). Playing solo build is actually a very selfish and often useless way to approach group content.

 

This nuance is what players fails to realize. It's not so much about player investing in sustain, it's that they dont realise you have to separate build that operate in solo and build that operate in group content. And part of the blame also goes to people encouraging raid build for solo play under the reason that "it teaches you to be better". Yeah sure I want to see them solo a legendary with nothing but full berserker, only DPS skill (raid build obviously dont give up any form of boon/breakstun) and 2 dodges. Why someone would do that you ask ? Because when no one is online and you need to kill that specific legendary, you will have no one but yourself to do that.

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

From my experience it's not really it.

 

People just dont know why they are building some stuff that way. I see many people look at solo OW build, see it's full celestial and then ask if this same build would work in a group play. Technically yes, celestial can play in group content, I think Teapot managed to clear raids with a team filled with nothing but celestial build. But in group content you will have dedicated DPS, dedicated healer and dedicated boon support (usually one healer + quickness/alacrity and the other fills the lacking element). Playing solo build is actually a very selfish and often useless way to approach group content.

 

This nuance is what players fails to realize. It's not so much about player investing in sustain, it's that they dont realise you have to separate build that operate in solo and build that operate in group content. And part of the blame also goes to people encouraging raid build for solo play under the reason that "it teaches you to be better". Yeah sure I want to see them solo a legendary with nothing but full berserker, only DPS skill (raid build obviously dont give up any form of boon/breakstun) and 2 dodges. Why someone would do that you ask ? Because when no one is online and you need to kill that specific legendary, you will have no one but yourself to do that.

So lets not introduce new stat combinations? I mean nothing will change actually. 

 

The players that are currently using open world builds in group content will also continue to use these if you dont introduce new stat combinations. 

And they will also do it if you introduce new stat combinations. 

So they will do it in both scenarios, so you can basically introduce these and nothing will change. 

 

I play in open world myself with specific armor. Sometimes I use cele and currently I am mostly on Untamed with Berserkers/assassins/diviners gear.

IF I enter fractals with these solo builds, then I solo the whole fractal and sometimes open lfg on last boss so people can get the rewards for the last boss or daily. 

 

Players who are currently joining group content with solo builds will do that if there is a new stat combination but they will also do it if there is no new stat combination.

I dont see a difference, except that some solo builds get a small Upgrade for damage, which (even tho you are right that its d*mb) will also increase the damage of the players who are still joining group content with their solo builds.

Edited August 19 by SeTect.5918

[Gaiawolf.8261]

6 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

This nuance is what players fails to realize. It's not so much about player investing in sustain, it's that they dont realise you have to separate build that operate in solo and build that operate in group content.

If you want players to play a certain way in organized group content, then you have to teach them. That's the "organized" part of the group dynamic and part of being an MMO community. This is what raid/frac guilds are for. We do the same thing in wvw. We don't expect anyone going in to know what they are doing. Even most raid/frac/strike players get absolutely destroyed until they get taught.

If you see someone struggling in a certain game mode because it plays differently than where they came from, point them in the right direction instead of complaining about how things are done in other game modes. Otherwise pugs are just gonna keep pugging badly. 

Edited August 19 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Alcatraznc.3869]

19 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

So lets not introduce new stat combinations? I mean nothing will change actually. 

 

The players that are currently using open world builds in group content will also continue to use these if you dont introduce new stat combinations. 

And they will also do it if you introduce new stat combinations. 

So they will do it in both scenarios, so you can basically introduce these and nothing will change. 

 

I play in open world myself with specific armor. Sometimes I use cele and currently I am mostly on Untamed with Berserkers/assassins/diviners gear.

IF I enter fractals with these solo builds, then I solo the whole fractal and sometimes open lfg on last boss so people can get the rewards for the last boss or daily. 

 

Players who are currently joining group content with solo builds will do that if there is a new stat combination but they will also do it if there is no new stat combination.

I dont see a difference, except that some solo builds get a small Upgrade for damage, which (even tho you are right that its d*mb) will also increase the damage of the players who are still joining group content with their solo builds.

 

Quote me where did I say it is a reason to not introduce more stat combinaisons ?

What I describe in that wall of text is the lack of information on why player use their build that way vs investing too much into sustain. I already know some player will use their solo build into group content anyway, even if they are being told it's detrimental if everyone in the group is already doing the role they are supposed to do.

 

13 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

If you want players to play a certain way in organized group content, then you have to teach them. That's the "organized" part of the group dynamic and part of being an MMO community. This is what raid/frac guilds are for. We do the same thing in wvw. We don't expect anyone going in to know what they are doing. Even most raid/frac/strike players get absolutely destroyed until they get taught.

If you see someone struggling in a certain game mode because it plays differently than where they came from, point them in the right direction instead of complaining about how things are done in other game modes. Otherwise pugs are just gonna keep pugging badly. 

I leave that to the people already doing that. What I am saying is just that things arent so black and white.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

I leave that to the people already doing that. What I am saying is just that things arent so black and white.

In that, we agree. I just offered some the community's working solution for when the game doesn't instruct new players.

[Terrorangel.1526]

I wonder if the devs ever thought about giving the players the freedom of choosing the attributes however they want to.

Ascended head armor has 153 stat points when it has 3 stats,168 when it has 4 stats and celestial stats add up to 270 stat points in total.

If the armor had one blanc base stat value of 160 or 200 or 240, players could distribute those freely however they want to when first obtaining the gear or wearing it the first time.

That would bring all possible combinations into the game. And even more:  subtract some points from vitality and put them into strength and so on. A problem might be that players want put all available stat points into one stat (for example strength). That could be worked around though if the old stat combinations work like a "blue print":
You have to choose between a 3-stats combination, a 4-stats combination or celestial stats. Tied to that choice you can distribute your points freely, but there are some restrictions for maximum value or minimum value for example. There could even be the option of "single stat equipment", but its base stat value is much lower than the other combinations (if 3 stats is 180 maybe 1 stat only has 90 or 100 points). 

For theory crafting and trying to get the best out of the stats for your build I think it's appealing. On the other hand I can imagine that newer players will be just overwhelmed by the spectrum of options that you would have. But here could all the combinations be selectable from a preview, similar to selecting stats of ascended gear for the first time or changing the stats of legendary gear. And if nothing is to your liking you can just distribute the points freely.

That would also change crafting quite a lot. You wouldn't craft a certain weapon for its stats but rather for its looks. Meanwhile ascended armor could use some fresh skins that are possible to craft instead of all the same looking armor with just different stats (why would Zojjas armor look like Occams?- makes no sense). Maybe the current main stat could influence their look, so that not every combination has its own skin but rather groups that share a prioritized stat share one look.

[Guy.9207]

10 hours ago, Terrorangel.1526 said:

I wonder if the devs ever thought about giving the players the freedom of choosing the attributes however they want to.

Ascended head armor has 153 stat points when it has 3 stats,168 when it has 4 stats and celestial stats add up to 270 stat points in total.

If the armor had one blanc base stat value of 160 or 200 or 240, players could distribute those freely however they want to when first obtaining the gear or wearing it the first time.

That would bring all possible combinations into the game. And even more:  subtract some points from vitality and put them into strength and so on. A problem might be that players want put all available stat points into one stat (for example strength). That could be worked around though if the old stat combinations work like a "blue print":
You have to choose between a 3-stats combination, a 4-stats combination or celestial stats. Tied to that choice you can distribute your points freely, but there are some restrictions for maximum value or minimum value for example. There could even be the option of "single stat equipment", but its base stat value is much lower than the other combinations (if 3 stats is 180 maybe 1 stat only has 90 or 100 points). 

For theory crafting and trying to get the best out of the stats for your build I think it's appealing. On the other hand I can imagine that newer players will be just overwhelmed by the spectrum of options that you would have. But here could all the combinations be selectable from a preview, similar to selecting stats of ascended gear for the first time or changing the stats of legendary gear. And if nothing is to your liking you can just distribute the points freely.

That would also change crafting quite a lot. You wouldn't craft a certain weapon for its stats but rather for its looks. Meanwhile ascended armor could use some fresh skins that are possible to craft instead of all the same looking armor with just different stats (why would Zojjas armor look like Occams?- makes no sense). Maybe the current main stat could influence their look, so that not every combination has its own skin but rather groups that share a prioritized stat share one look.

I would love to have this kind of thing in game. Something about maths in theorycrafting makes my mind go brr