Pvp Damage Needs to be Toned Down

[Pyriel.4370]

Current meta is delete or be deleted.
 

From virtuosos hammering out tons of ranged dps from range with little to no risk.
Reapers just spinning about the place constantly.
Daredevils instantly stunlock and delete.
Willbenders just cleaving down groups.
Scrappers sun locking and deleting everything in their hammers range.
DH's catching a group in trap spam and longbow 2 to down em all.
Spellbreakers rip off all your boons and do tons and tons of damage while being almost unkillable.
To Bunny Thumper Rangers doing all the stun, all the damage while taking hits for them is a breeze AND the pet will keep chomping at the same time.

Stop for 1 moment and you get a whole line of condis and multiple stun locks then instantly downed, more often than not just cleaved really fast also.

There are no tactics or strategies, just spam damage as much as possible.

Even support classes are just removed instantly and cannot get anywhere near the pace of dmg and condis.

The damage currently available to almost every profession is obscene. Literally delete or be deleted.

We've had this for multiple patches in a row. Does anyone in the Anet team even play pvp?

Why is it that this power creep hasn't been properly seen to since HoT? Every patch,. every season, increases in damage, decreases in support or survivablility.

I used to play sup guard and in the brief moments in certain patches where I could avoid a spike and not get cleaved down instantly, teams were more balanced and varied.

Even the most recent "balance" patch didn't address ANY of the problems with OP builds that require little to no effort (see Reaper).

Edited August 18 by Pyriel.4370

[Eddbopkins.2630]

New weapons in 2 day? Only going to get worse I feel.

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

54 minutes ago, Pyriel.4370 said:

Current meta is delete or be deleted.
 

From virtuosos hammering out tons of ranged dps from range with little to no risk.
Reapers just spinning about the place constantly.
Daredevils instantly stunlock and delete.
Willbenders just cleaving down groups.
Scrappers sun locking and deleting everything in their hammers range.
DH's catching a group in trap spam and longbow 2 to down em all.
Spellbreakers rip off all your boons and do tons and tons of damage while being almost unkillable.
To Bunny Thumper Rangers doing all the stun, all the damage while taking hits for them is a breeze AND the pet will keep chomping at the same time.

Stop for 1 moment and you get a whole line of condis and multiple stun locks then instantly downed, more often than not just cleaved really fast also.

There are no tactics or strategies, just spam damage as much as possible.

Even support classes are just removed instantly and cannot get anywhere near the pace of dmg and condis.

The damage currently available to almost every profession is obscene. Literally delete or be deleted.

We've had this for multiple patches in a row. Does anyone in the Anet team even play pvp?

Why is it that this power creep hasn't been properly seen to since HoT? Every patch,. every season, increases in damage, decreases in support or survivablility.

I used to play sup guard and in the brief moments in certain patches where I could avoid a spike and not get cleaved down instantly, teams were more balanced and varied.

Even the most recent "balance" patch didn't address ANY of the problems with OP builds that require little to no effort (see Reaper).

You forgot vindicator

[Gotejjeken.1267]

22 minutes ago, NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

You forgot vindicator

That's cause they main it

[Dean Calaway.9718]

2 hours ago, Pyriel.4370 said:

Current meta is delete or be deleted.

We call that fast paced gaming for people that don't work by the hour.

[Hotride.2187]

Nah, lets not do that again.

[Kuya.6495]

And turn the current side nodders into bunkers? Nah

[Myror.7521]

@Kuya.6495 not like they are allready bunkers ..... Oh wait they are :d

[Zekent.3652]

2 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

And turn the current side nodders into bunkers? Nah

There are bunkers already, even in such bursty meta.

[Kuma.1503]

Unfortunately, the last time Anet tried this, they overcorrected, and decided to kill off build variety at the same time. 

People complained about boons so they deleted boon duration. Now any build with too much boon access cannot be balanced in such a way that they need more concentration to do their job. Anet is forced to take an all or nothing approach. 

People complained about condis so they deleted expertise. Now when a condi build does too much damage while investing into tank stats, there are no squishy expertise amulets that Anet can push those builds into. Because they don't exist. 

People complained about damage, so they not only nerfed the damage, they nerfed cooldowns to reduce "spam". Problem with that is that in doing so, they not only reduced burst dps. They reduced sustained dps as well. Without sustained dps, we cannot break through bunkers. So we ended up in a bunker meta which everyone hated. 

 

Damage has needed to go down for a long time, but Anet's execution was so terrible, that most people would rather not try out that again. 

Edited August 19 by Kuma.1503

[Shagie.7612]

7 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Damage has needed to go down for a long time, but Anet's execution was so terrible, that most people would rather not try out that again. 

Even the big 2020 patch didn't do that great of a job of it, honestly.
The problematic big damage builds like Sic 'Em Slb just swapped to full glass and were doing just as much damage as pre-nerfs. More glass, sure, but it didn't matter that much.
And in the meantime, a bunch of elite specs were smited out of existence and the entire Warrior class was banished for like 2 years.

The big damage nerf was fine conceptually, PoF sent boons out of control too, some CCs not doing damage is even okay imo (though others still should, it should have been on a case by case basis dependent upon cast times, other effects, cooldowns, etc), but none of it got followed up on to actually make a decent competitive environment.

The only thing that happened after that was a gradual unnerfing of damage given to the favored specs, and then EoD dropped and powercrept everything out of control again, including mobility that time.

Anyways I do agree there's some stand out balance problems but it seems pretty incorrect to me to generalize it like this.

If your whole team runs into DH traps they probably deserve to die lol

[coro.3176]

I have tried to make something similar to what I play in WvW work, with sustain, water fields, etc, and I've come to the conclusion that the damage is just way too high for it.

Like, wtf am I even doing trying to blast this water field for ~1-2k healing, costing me precious cast time when my opponents are smacking me for 5-10k if they even land a single hit. Even my heal skill will only undo like 1 minor hit.

[whooot.5784]

I'd rather have billion time a power crept meta instead of a bunker one tbh, and even in this power crept meta, bunkers are still extremly strong, even busted ( hello ranger, hello war, hello everything playing with eretik amulett) that have every tools to survive so easily without no risk, have damage, cc and can kill you cause they're simply almost immortals.

If you want to shave all dps, then you shall instantly completly delete all bunkers capability to do damage as well.. Cause this is not normal, that a spec who's almost immortal, can do damage, cc, having mobility, infinite amount of block/invuln/evade frame. A spec shouldn't be able do to everything in the same time

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

There's already bunkers... we just had people upset about harbingers the other day. 

kitten y'all really do just wanna nerf things y'all don't like without thinking of the way the balance changes huh 💀

This won't work

11 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Unfortunately, the last time Anet tried this, they overcorrected, and decided to kill off build variety at the same time. 

Damage has needed to go down for a long time, but Anet's execution was so terrible, that most people would rather not try out that again. 

 

yep.

This + the fact that instead of doing this they gave most classes mobility, high mitigation or both.

However.

If you get nuked now it's because you facetanked something you shouldn't have. We can argue whether or not that damage should come with more or less vulnerability, sure, but I'm pretty convinced at the moment that if you get deleted there was something you could have done directly to prevent it as the balance stands right now. 

Quote

Stop for 1 moment and you get a whole line of condis and multiple stun locks then instantly downed, more often than not just cleaved really fast also.
 

If you're driving on a highway and you slam on the brakes is the accident a skill issue or a problem with the highway? Don't stop. 

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There are no tactics or strategies, just spam damage as much as possible.

Untrue. Some classes in the current meta need to be systematically disassembled or be subjected to special rotations to die -at all- if the player is good. I normally am a big critic of mindless spam play, but there isn't a whole lot of that right this second. 

Edited August 19 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[MithranArkanere.8957]

It's not simply damage that needs to be toned down, it's the overall pace in competitive modes, it's too fast for new players at entry levels. No single build should be able to single-handedly take down anyone under 3 seconds without, warning, help, or preparation like builds can do from stealth.   Stunlocks shouldn't be as easy to achieve, and excessive stun spam should result in 'free' stun breaks so players use CC sparingly to maximize the effects, something similar to how fighting games got juggle breaks and reduced damage on consecutive strikes on a juggled enemy to make infinite combos that take you from 100% to 0% in little time way harder to achieve.

Veterans would be able to adapt to a slower pace, but newbies will never adapt to the current fast pace.

Unfortunately, things like converting quickness and alacrity into stacking boons, giving casting time and/or aftercast to many skills that do not have them so they can't be used at the same time and other measures that would make competitive modes friendlier towards new players would also make PvE quite slower and thus more boring without additional changes across the board.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

16 minutes ago, MithranArkanere.8957 said:

It's not simply damage that needs to be toned down, it's the overall pace in competitive modes, it's too fast for new players at entry levels.

*Hissing*

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Veterans would be able to adapt to a slower pace, but newbies will never adapt to the current fast pace.

Would be able to? Sure.

Will? Nah.💀 Trivializing challenging content by making the existing content less engaging is a good way to kill your population. The people that are here now are largely the people that have adapted to or are committing to adapt to that skill curve. You're gonna punish all of them for potential players that haven't even started?

What you need is a wading pool, not a removal of the diving board. 

Quote

 other measures that would make competitive modes friendlier towards new players would also make PvE quite slower and thus more boring without additional changes across the board.

It'll make the competitive mode boring too! 😴 

Edited August 19 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Supernova Starr.2069]

18 hours ago, Pyriel.4370 said:

Even the most recent "balance" patch didn't address ANY of the problems with OP builds that require little to no effort (see Reaper).

I'd say balance patches are working as intended

[Pyriel.4370]

On 8/18/2024 at 8:24 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

That's cause they main it

Nope, I rarely play revenant and only really geared one out during SOTO. Never took one into pvp or at least haven't for a VERY long time. 

I've deleted groups of players with willbender and feel my wrath. 

It didn't feel good, as I've been on the receiving end of that. If I catch em trying to stomp or bunched up out of dodge and CDs, they're down in less than 3 seconds. 

Dragon Hunter, swooping in with all traps and a longbow 2 downs people with very little reaction time. 

The damage and condi spam with the current builds is just so maxed out that people die REALLY easy. It isn't fun for anyone outside the power fantasy players. 

It isn't competitive to nuke or be nuked. 

I'm also not pointing to a bunker meta but for example, shout heal guard has little damage so the trade off is that it shouldn't be solo able by a ranged virtuoso with minimal investment on their part. Playing willbender I can stick to a bunker guard and straight up dps them down despite them offering little to no threat to me. Not true for other bunkers and tanky builds. 

I'm advocating for bringing back the older roles. E.g duellists and side nodes are mobile with high damage but go down easy. Bunkers have little damage but high survivability and support. Teamfighters should have mid survival and mid damage. Etc etc. 

Here's SOME examples of the ridiculousness that immediately come to mind:

Take the current Spellbreaker staff variant. It duels really well, ccs like crazy, rips boons and can easily take out someone but also is hard to kill AND provides heals, cleanse and boons via staff while damaging pretty heavily. Guard staff is a support weapon and doesn't even come close to the support offered by warr staff, never mind the movement and damage offered by warr staff also. 

Or the current willbender, sure it goes down fast IF you catch it and if it doesn't have its CDs for stab, mass cleanse, teleport etc. If not it resets and nukes you down. Oh and if it's running renewed focus it just strait up invuns for 3 seconds, long enough for someone to spend enough of their burst to immediately receive a nuke to the face. 

Ranger bunny thumper just nukes everything and ccs everything at the same time and it's hard to kill as their maces have barrier, cleanse and boons. Nevermind the rest of the toolkit. Then throw in a pet that is almost as hard as the ranger itself to disable / kill while sticking to you, doing not insignificant damage, like glue despite the ranger being elsewhere or hiding. 

Reaper just spams out chill etc aoe unblockable with the relic. Two health bars, tons of dmg, boon rip, all the conditions applied with a simple whirl or two. Burst one down and it just drops shroud and you have used your burst, then it has scepter burst, and before you know it it's back in shroud. Dual reaper is just obscene. 

These are a few of many examples I've seen of damage being off the charts. 

Balance is gone and has been for a while. The latest patch was a joke and mostly buffed everything. Not a hotfix in sight either for over performing classes. 

Then there's newbies getting into it. It's such a fast paced nuke meta that I'm surprised any barely get to hit their stride learning the actual builds and tactics. One wrong step and dead. A few wrong steps and your targeted as an easy down and done, they'll likely spend the rest of their match being farmed or hanging out decapping what they can and avoiding combat. 

Even disengaging from team fights is extremely difficult with how mobile most specs are now. 

Genuinely we need a slower paced meta. Not a bunker turtle fest but something at least a little more nuanced than who can fill mid with as many aoes as possible. 

Edited August 19 by Pyriel.4370
Spelling and additional.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

22 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Even the big 2020 patch didn't do that great of a job of it, honestly.
The problematic big damage builds like Sic 'Em Slb just swapped to full glass and were doing just as much damage as pre-nerfs. More glass, sure, but it didn't matter that much.
And in the meantime, a bunch of elite specs were smited out of existence and the entire Warrior class was banished for like 2 years.

The big damage nerf was fine conceptually, PoF sent boons out of control too, some CCs not doing damage is even okay imo (though others still should, it should have been on a case by case basis dependent upon cast times, other effects, cooldowns, etc), but none of it got followed up on to actually make a decent competitive environment.

The only thing that happened after that was a gradual unnerfing of damage given to the favored specs, and then EoD dropped and powercrept everything out of control again, including mobility that time.

Anyways I do agree there's some stand out balance problems but it seems pretty incorrect to me to generalize it like this.

If your whole team runs into DH traps they probably deserve to die lol

That is because the only half finished it, by their own admission.

What would have been easier would have been to put a cap on added damage modifiers, including critical damage.

[jdawgie.1835]

We are very, very close to a bunker meta if we're not careful. 

Edited August 19 by jdawgie.1835

[CallousEye.5018]

I don't think damage is too high, but I also usually don't run full glass, or if I do, I expect to be able to be deleted if I get out of position.

What feels imbalanced to me the number of abilities that some classes have that give mitigation outside of toughness, so blocks, reflects, aegis, evades, invulnerabilities, blinds, stealth, and more. The ability of warriors and revenants to tank while using, blocks, evades, etc seems off, the amount will benders can teleport seems off, thief stealth spam, mesmers seem to have a ridiculous amount of invulnerabilities, the number or interrupts a mace untamed brings I guess, necros in general...