Trash mobs shouldn't exist.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Azoqu.8917 said:

Here everyone is talking about release HoT mobs, meanwhile I'm thinking of the beta mobs that had dodges for AoEs and people hated that with a passion. And those were just the current mobs in base Tyria with dodges.

They actually had more than that. They also used original GW1 AI, which means they not only could dodge, but also walked away from AoEs, kited, and coordinated spike attacks.

[anninke.7469]

6 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Don't underestimated how bad many Openworld players are. They die to this. 

That would be me... 😅

(So obviously no to the OP's suggestion from my sorry lousy kitten.)

[daw.4923]

On 8/19/2024 at 11:37 AM, Dib.4612 said:

I was on my way to the Valdhertz Crypts in Echovald Wilds. On my way there, there were a handful of Brotherhood enemies, I suppose guarding the place from our entry?
Anyways, I hadn't played the game for some time and one of these guys started attacking me. I decided to test their strength, I am a guardian on a glass cannon build. So I just stood there, taking the hits. I waited... And waited... And waited. And after 1.5 minutes he finally managed to down me. In turn I got up and killed him in 3 seconds.

What this does is trivialize their presence, and in turn trivialize the world you're in. Part of the immersion in a world is that if someone attacks you, you may just die. And when that's the case you start noticing their burst attacks, you try to avoid them. And in turn you start appreciating and respecting this foe, try to find ways to go around them, or make smart pulls like in GW1. Immersing you into the world through its dangers.

You may say, "but in groups they will pose a threat to you!". But really there would have to be 9 of them to bring it down to 10 seconds, and then I'd still burst down this swarm of annoying flies and make it even more inconsequential, I just killed 9 people on my own. Furthermore I don't see their attacks anymore, I cannot react to anything, only 'counterfight', aka burst them as fast as possible.

You may also say, "but it's so annoying if I walk around and get killed!". In that case, why do you play an adventure game?
But furthermore I have better solutions:
1. Only make enemies that feel alive and threatening, they should be able to kill you on their own in just a couple of seconds if you don't put up a fight. Apart from auto attack, give them at least a burst, CC, heal and the ability to dodge. If they are humans, take their attacks from the player abilities so it feels like fighting real people. Give Veterans and Elites more skills, not more health/damage.
2. Readjust their number down so we don't get overwhelmed by these stronger enemies and are able to read their attacks.
3. Put them in sensible places. Why are these enemies here? If they are fighters then surely they are protecting something? Is it their hideout or city or fortress, or maybe an important road between two places they occupy. Maybe they are protecting the entire land. Let them patrol, let them set up chokepoints, watchtowers.
4. Lastly the AI on many of them really needs to improve, some kind of interaction or movement on them is important as to make them feel alive. Make them smart enough to coordinate, like if they see a group of players that is too large for them to deal, let them call on reinforcements with a horn from another place in the map.

In conclusion (TLDR).
Make fewer but much stronger enemies with better AI and player moves that make you feel as though they are a worthy opponent. No more auto attacking trash mobs that try to pet me to death.
Why? For the sake of immersion and a fun challenge!

i wonder if they had milion hp and oneshot you .. would it made your experience more interesting?

you can visit drizzlewood where you can see events overlap and groups of 10+ mobs will definitely test your skills.

[Smol.7985]

Pre-nerf HoT anyone ? 😂 Yeah let's never do this again .

[Zebulous.2934]

10 hours ago, Skub.8240 said:

If you want a challenge, take your armour off or something. Not everyone wants to always have a high level of challenge at all times.

They want interaction and counter-play.  Ideally that would come from PvP or WvW.  However I don't think that the current state of Gw2 pvp modes is satisfying.

[Radiancee.6537]

On 8/19/2024 at 12:00 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

You might have missed initial release of HoT expansion.

 

[Radiancee.6537]

- edit: deleted because of double post

Edited August 21 by Radiancee.6537

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

A hostile mob for every node you come across. Especially in Janthir Wilds.

[RyasmaRaven.6018]

If Anet got rid of trash mobs people would complain the world feels dead and lifeless. I do agree with the better implementation, roving packs of wolves or shrooms, patrols of White Mantle or whatever instead of enemies just standing around. But getting rid of them? Nah, I do want the world to feel alive.

And for buffing, the newer expacs have  some more dangerous OW enemies. But not in older stuff because, well, yeah old HoT lol

[Dib.4612]

On 8/20/2024 at 8:01 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Don't underestimated how bad many Openworld players are. They die to this. 

And they SHOULD die if they don't interact with the opponent. Ignoring the obviously telegraphed hard burst skills and CCs.
You then respawn, come back with the knowledge of how those attacks look like, and easily defeat it and feel like you achieved something in this game as well as immersing you. And for the rest of your playtime, you will every time feel a master of these enemies by outwitting and outplaying them. This is FUN!

[Dib.4612]

11 hours ago, Radiancee.6537 said:

 

In fact Heart of Thorns still features the best mob design and balance to this date. I have a real respect for those Frogs, Wyverns AND the dangerous environment, they feel real to me BECAUSE when they attack you, they are a threat, not an overgrown lawn that needs mowing. Heart of Thorns also featured very fun raids in which you would co-operate with people to overcome a threat. It's hard for me to believe you all don't want such fun, the games combat is built for this.

And to the casuals that fear such content, it really doesn't take much to 'get good' at the game. Just auto attack, heal and get your dodge keybind right under your thumb (space or alt) and look at the enemy when you fight. Otherwise CCing helps a lot also. (And obviously bring sensible gear).

[Dib.4612]

On 8/20/2024 at 2:32 PM, daw.4923 said:

i wonder if they had milion hp and oneshot you .. would it made your experience more interesting?

you can visit drizzlewood where you can see events overlap and groups of 10+ mobs will definitely test your skills.

These and many strawman arguments in this thread are really unhelpful.
I'm simply looking for interaction with the NPCs enemies in the game, they should feel like a threat in order to feel alive. They don't have to murder you in one shot OBVIOUSLY! And hard hitting attacks should be somewhat slow so even casuals can notice and move or dodge.
And you would find this fun to if you only would try instead of despair and fear. And like I said in the comment before, bind your dodge key under your thumb for immediate access!

[Dib.4612]

On 8/20/2024 at 11:41 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

They actually had more than that. They also used original GW1 AI, which means they not only could dodge, but also walked away from AoEs, kited, and coordinated spike attacks.

Why would you expect someone to keep standing in a burning field of lava? How is that immersive?
That just means AOE fields are not meant to be a direct damage tool, only a tool to deny area to an enemy, force them to move elsewhere. A bit like artillery. Would you expect people to just stand their and take an artillery barrage? No, they hide or move and then try to counter that battery to bring it down.
I'd much prefer if they bring that AI back.

[Dib.4612]

On 8/20/2024 at 8:50 PM, Zebulous.2934 said:

They want interaction and counter-play.  Ideally that would come from PvP or WvW.  However I don't think that the current state of Gw2 pvp modes is satisfying.

Exactly. And I think you're right, the PvP isn't satisfying.
I think the animations in this game should be MORE telling so that they are more readable for one.
Much of why people don't get into PvP also is because the gap is just so massive between PvE, it's a totally different ball game. And I think it would be better for the games health if these things were more similar and BOTH accessible also to casual players.

I am not advocating for anything to become too hard for casuals, just teach them the game through interactive PvE mobs and a tutorial that supports it as well as more sensible default keybindings.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Dib.4612 said:

Why would you expect someone to keep standing in a burning field of lava? How is that immersive?
That just means AOE fields are not meant to be a direct damage tool, only a tool to deny area to an enemy, force them to move elsewhere. A bit like artillery. Would you expect people to just stand their and take an artillery barrage? No, they hide or move and then try to counter that battery to bring it down.
I'd much prefer if they bring that AI back.

"immersive" is not the same as "realistic", and means different things to different people. Would it be more immersive, if we died on the first day of leaving the city to a bunch of rabid animals? Or a week later from tetanus contracted from fighting those animals? Most likely not, even though that would be the expected outcome. Too much realism actually detracts from our "immersion", because that is heavily influenced by the fun we're having (or not having) while playing.

Make mobs too smart, and the average player would not feel much immersion, because it would be overwhelmed very fast by the growing feeling of annoyance.

Anet did well when they nefed the AI then. Just as they were right to nerf the HoT mobs later. If they did not do so, we would have ended in a game that might have been more challenging, but that would also be far more empty.

 

[Dib.4612]

10 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

"immersive" is not the same as "realistic", and means different things to different people. Would it be more immersive, if we died on the first day of leaving the city to a bunch of rabid animals? Or a week later from tetanus contracted from fighting those animals? Most likely not, even though that would be the expected outcome. Too much realism actually detracts from our "immersion", because that is heavily influenced by the fun we're having (or not having) while playing.

Make mobs too smart, and the average player would not feel much immersion, because it would be overwhelmed very fast by the growing feeling of annoyance.

Anet did well when they nefed the AI then. Just as they were right to nerf the HoT mobs later. If they did not do so, we would have ended in a game that might have been more challenging, but that would also be far more empty.

 

I never said 'realistic', those are your words. Again, a strawman.
However in order to be immersed, things do have to react in a logical, consistent manner.

[Flowersunshine.7385]

14 hours ago, Radiancee.6537 said:

 

Thank you for sharing this, @Radiancee.6537. It brightened up my day.

3 hours ago, Dib.4612 said:

not an overgrown lawn that needs mowing. 

😂

[Astralporing.1957]

54 minutes ago, Dib.4612 said:

I never said 'realistic', those are your words. Again, a strawman.
However in order to be immersed, things do have to react in a logical, consistent manner.

Sure, but the narrative logic does not always need to follow the same rules as logic of reality. To feel immersion you need to have fun playing first. Towards that goal certain "creative" adjustments can be made. Making the enemies weaker and dumber than they could potentially be is part of that.

Hint: the famous Indiana Jones swordsman "duel" scene is clearly logical, but it would not work as well if it was the movie protagonist that was the swordsman. Even if the purely logical outcome would not have changed, the narrative logic would have demanded something completely different. Same with the Empire's Stormtoopers - the supposedly best marksmen in galaxy that yet could not hit the barn doors when it comes to shooting at the heroees. This is the same here - we are the heroes. The enemies are not. They are mooks, and mooks are dumb.

Edited August 22 by Astralporing.1957

[LadyKitty.6120]

HoT: "These mobs hit too hard and are hard to kill!"
PoF: "There's too many mobs with too long aggro range so we can't get out of combat!"
EoD: "There's not enough mobs and they hit like dry cloth." (Wet cloth can feel surprisingly nasty.)
SotO: "These mobs die too fast, too much power creep!"

Guess it's hard to find the sweet spot or good way to create suitable level of difficulty. Though then again, when lots of people make bad build choices (wrong type of stat+skills+traits combo) and you gotta try to balance mobs so that decent builds have enough challenge and players with random mixmashes don't feel overly challenged ("We don't want this to be Dark Souls!"), it's probably nigh undoable job to get right if you have this many build options. Ofc there's the option of decreasing the effect of stats, boons and traits as well as making both power and condi scale under same stats which would reduce the scale they need to balance for but then again, that'd suck all the remaining fun out of buildcrafting. And that'd bore some people to figurative MMO death.

[Labjax.2465]

On 8/21/2024 at 4:58 PM, Radiancee.6537 said:

 

GW2 at its most brutal is basically like:

GW2: "So we made a bunch of enemies with really creative and unique capabilities to challenge you."

Player: "Oh wow, that sounds interesting! So, I get a bunch of creative and unique ways to counter them then, right?"

GW2: "..."

Player: "Right?"

GW2: "You get Dodge on a cooldown."

(I know that's a slight exaggeration, but it does strike me how plain of a design choice it can come across as to put most of the creativity on the mob design and not enough on making it fun to combat them. I know there are some people who enjoy souls-like games and as far as I'm aware, they are fairly plain in this way on the player end. But as mainstream appeal, it's a rough choice to go for. One of the games that sticks in my head for fun combat is Saints Row 4, both because of the movement and the powers. In that game, it felt like the enemies advanced alongside the player to match the absurdity of their capability. In this game, at its most brutal, it feels like the enemies advance far past the player in order to punish them for existing. And again, some people like that kind of challenge, but it's still a game. It's supposed to have a fun gameplay loop and "punishing" does not fit in that for a lot of video game players. I think for many players, universalized notions of difficulty aside, they'd find it more fun, for example, to be able to kite a ranged enemy over to fire at a convenient node that can reflect their projectiles back at them, than to be faced with dodging as the solution for most things or needing a build and class with some timed reflect. Both game environment and abilities have opportunities in them to help the player feel empowered to handle what they're facing, rather than overwhelmed like in classic HoT in the video.)

[Flowersunshine.7385]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

GW2 at its most brutal is basically like:

GW2: "So we made a bunch of enemies with really creative and unique capabilities to challenge you."

Player: "Oh wow, that sounds interesting! So, I get a bunch of creative and unique ways to counter them then, right?"

 

Wellllll... 

As druid I used longbow and staff to keep enemies at a distance. I tried to line them up, used staff 4 to immobilize and then LB4 with piercing. It was my minigame when I did LW3.

In PoF I loved double dagger/SB soulbeast. Having an evade on each weapon set next to the regular dodges was great. There was a bug on the pre-realm of death instance that meant I managed to defeat Balthazar. I had such a good time with my four evades it came as quite a surprise that the fight was supposed to kill me. 

I'm sure you understand that if I played longbow-staff ranger I'm not really a buildcrafter or min-maxer. And I'll admit that I avoided HoT when jt first came out for a while. But even with the game at its most brutal you do get more ways to deal with enemies than just two dodges.

Heck, when HoT first came out the invulnerablity on ele's focus wasn't a channel yet, it was just a buff, so you could quickly swap earth to get your invulnerablity and then move back to fire or air. (But I insisted in playing dagger-dagger...)

Edited August 23 by Flowersunshine.7385

[Isopod.4156]

Hm yes I definitely want to be killed By trash mobs while trying to travel the map or take five minutes to move two inches cause I have to kill everything in sight to get anywhere. Pof mobs already yoink my off my mount a lot and those forged that can pull you back whole your trying to get out of agro range cause I just wanna get where I'm going whole game should def be like that

Or you use flying mounts though ice herad Some later maps have anti air

[Ashen.2907]

11 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

GW2 at its most brutal is basically like:

GW2: "So we made a bunch of enemies with really creative and unique capabilities to challenge you."

Player: "Oh wow, that sounds interesting! So, I get a bunch of creative and unique ways to counter them then, right?"

GW2: "..."

Player: "Right?"

GW2: "You get Dodge on a cooldown."

(I know that's a slight exaggeration, but it does strike me how plain of a design choice it can come across as to put most of the creativity on the mob design and not enough on making it fun to combat them. I know there are some people who enjoy souls-like games and as far as I'm aware, they are fairly plain in this way on the player end. But as mainstream appeal, it's a rough choice to go for. One of the games that sticks in my head for fun combat is Saints Row 4, both because of the movement and the powers. In that game, it felt like the enemies advanced alongside the player to match the absurdity of their capability. In this game, at its most brutal, it feels like the enemies advance far past the player in order to punish them for existing. And again, some people like that kind of challenge, but it's still a game. It's supposed to have a fun gameplay loop and "punishing" does not fit in that for a lot of video game players. I think for many players, universalized notions of difficulty aside, they'd find it more fun, for example, to be able to kite a ranged enemy over to fire at a convenient node that can reflect their projectiles back at them, than to be faced with dodging as the solution for most things or needing a build and class with some timed reflect. Both game environment and abilities have opportunities in them to help the player feel empowered to handle what they're facing, rather than overwhelmed like in classic HoT in the video.)

We do get dodge, on a cooldown.

We also get:

Block

Blind

Protection

Weakness

Daze

Stun

Knock back

Knock down

immobilize

chill

reflect

stability

class specific abilities to reduce incoming damage or opponent effectiveness.

and more.

[Hashberry.4510]

It's an amazing combat system. Totally wasted on the players but I guess it's what they want.

The visual game still has its moments, but open world combat? Dull as dirt.