Necro Spear...

[felincyriac.5981]

basically what we needed was warrior spear 😂, necro simply isn't built for melee 

and also how does it make sense that the warrior spear ranged interrupt does more dmg than addle? 😒

Edited August 25 by felincyriac.5981

[wolfyrik.2017]

On 8/22/2024 at 9:21 PM, KrHome.1920 said:

I have zero issues landing skill 4. The only skill that misses often is 3 because of the short range but that's fine considering how much of an impact that skill has. Spear 4 is unblockable so you want to throw it into a blocking target. A blocking target does not dodge. Blocks typically last 3 seconds which is the flip time of spear 3 which means you can  teleport and burst right at the end of the block. The weapon is the most thought-out weapon anet ever made for necro. It's great. Every skill makes sense.

That's really interesting because it makes no sense at all to me. I don't understand why the range is so short at all. It's a spear, so why is it's range shorter than dagger?

I don't understand why the boon-strip is the skill 4 and on such a long cool-down. I don't understand why it's skill 4 that refreshes skill2, this just seems backwards to me as you have to use 4 to get in range to use 2....The only way to use the effectively is to be in melee range already, which makes the teleport pointless, and the fact that it's the second part of 4 means that it wastes time on the cooldown anyway? And why would we need to teleport after a block? What does it achieve? I don't understand why the boonstrip is on the 5 on such a large cooldown when thew way it works is basically so limited anyway, and I don't understand why it's one of the souls shard generators as this means we have to use it on cooldown, rather when it's needed, so the boonstrip is likely to be wasted. I don't understand why the stun's are on the three and, again, have to be used on cooldown, meaning we can't maximise the utility of it. None of this makes sense to me. I certainly don't understand why it's a power weapon and I don't understand what it's for. Everything it does, seems to be performed better by other weapons. It's bizarre. The whole weapon just seems upside down and back to front.

Edited August 25 by wolfyrik.2017

[cubed.2853]

I don't really get warm with the spear. The ideas are good, but the implementation is weak. It's simply pointless in relation to the alternatives and pretty useless right now... 🤷‍♂️

[Junkpile.7439]

Damage did feel low in WvW.

[Vile.4387]

The damage is fine in my opinion. I just have an issue with the teleport, getting interrupted during it. That doesnt make sense to me. I have no problem with the 4 skill recharging the 2 skill either, especially since exiting shroud will give you another 4 skill, which can also give you another 2 skill, so when ur up close, you can get a decent combo with it. I have also had combos on enemies who surround me, being able to use the 2 into 4, back into 2 when they are below 50% health was really fun.

I like to Reaper and Run Spear as well as Sword/Focus, using power gear. My heals/utility are the heal shout, Nothing can save you, spectral walk, spectral armor, and chilled to the bone.

If I screw up, sometimes i can escape with the sword, or reaper 2.

If I engage I can 4/Cook 5/Port4/3/2 Shroud, sometimes i pre-empt nothing can save you, if they have block strings on, to make sure all the 5 hit, or instead of the 3/2, jump into shroud and use shroud 3/4 with the cripple/boonstrip trait. The boon hate is so strong with necro now. I love it. So many characters with like 5-7 boons having uptime, just negate them all, because I like the deny buttons.

Ive even been surprised by core necro and the damage it can deal with spear, and swords for that matter.

Edited August 26 by Vile.4387

[Brujeria.7536]

The biggest problem in competetive modes and wvw is simply the setup.  Classes like thief / guardian / mesmer etc. with similar burst focused weapon sets  and builds have direct instant cast teleport skills with no need to hitting a projectile skill first, unconditional burst and direct protection spells.

For example guardian has a 600 range instant teleport on a 8 second cooldown which gives a combo field, blind and damage. That means whenever you are within 600 range you need to respect that and he can go boom at anytime combining it with other instant cast skills or the burst skills.

Now necro has a 1200 range projectile based teleport with an 18 second cooldown and a lot of gimmicks (yeah refresh on shroud exit is nice but like for what do i need this when other classes get 8 second cooldown right off the bat? they try to disguise a hefty downside by adding a feature thats not needed in the first place if the numbers would be correct)

Then you have a burst skill on a low range burst weapon thats so gimmicky. You need to "generate shards" in order to get good damage, yet you get punished for it with skill 4 if there are any number of enemies higher then 1 because the "stacks" you need to build first are spread between multiple targets (and so is your bust damage). 

I mean compare it to any other class that wants to burst: teleport, burst skill, maybe other instant cast skills to increase damage or survival.

Necro: Hope nobody dodges your projectile, hope target is alone to deal damage, completly unlogical setup for burst to only get mediocre burst at all.

 

[Dreamonology.8362]

On 8/25/2024 at 1:42 AM, felincyriac.5981 said:

basically what we needed was warrior spear 😂, necro simply isn't built for melee 

and also how does it make sense that the warrior spear ranged interrupt does more dmg than addle? 😒

for wvw or pvp basically the only use for spear is with power harb and you only swap to it for 2 3 and 5 skill than you swap back to harb shroud or sword/sword. but at that point it's mostly harb that carriers 

[Phyb.6704]

Thinking of power builds mainly.

Also I would really like thought to go into having the skills be adjusted outside pve. They need shorter cooldowns and some decent changes in pve but should have longer cooldowns outside pve for balance. 

Skill 1

Ditch chill and give a crit multiplier like spellbreaker.
Chill is on swords and greatsword. It goes into - Bitter Chill - to give vulnerability. Since you can keep another power weapon on swap for that I would prefer something other then chill or vul. I would actually prefer a critical multipier like what spellbreaker has on daggers. Boost the damage output based on crits. I like this since unlike rev running renegade you cant just get 33% crit chance and 50% from fury for 83% crit with 0 prec. Necro generally has to invest quite a bit less they want -Decimate Defences- ....but then you need to build up the vul stacks and that takes time unlike renegade that just pops fury and has 83%. Most take -Soul Eater- for that reason. Reward the investment into the stats.

Skill 2

Its fine. Maybe hit 5 targets. If you're running wells and/or reaper your pretty aoe focused so I dont see the harm in just having it split damage across more targets to follow the theme. 

Skill 3

If you want bar break there is better choices. This is probably more wvw or pvp. 

I would go for no damage, 800 or more range, Have it do a 1 sec stun for base and daze based on soul shards so if you are in close range you get some extra cc but at ranged you get a bit less. You get more when you need it. Not really useful in pve but thats the point. If this seems a big to buff in pvp then.... increse the cooldown in game modes outside pve. 

Skill 4

PVP and WVW its going to be seen a mile away as the only ranged skill unless 3 is changed to be range as well. 
Damage and recharge should be on the first hit.... it feels to long to get the 2nd hit to recharge in pve that I go into repaer shroud or swap weapons. Put chill and add a field where you land the teleport so you can combo into skill 5 with its finisher. The type of field could be more pve or pvp focused based on damage or cc. It would give options. If your running power with -Bitter Chill - the vul is a bit of a waste if you already have chill.

Skill 5

I like that the finisher works well if you run wells. I dont like only 3 might on 20sec. I also do not like it being personal. 

PvE....Let it hit up to 6 and give 3 might per target hit. Give fury as well. Share boons with the group. Lower cooldown to 10sec. With alac any lower would a bit much.

Pvp and wvw.... the 1 sec cast. Most will gtfo with a cast that long before boons are deleted. The animation is pretty flashy. This cast time needs to be reduced to 1/4 if your going to use that outside pve. Just have the cooldown higher in non pve content. Increase it back to 20sec or even 25sec outside pve to allow for the fast casting time and boon share to not be op outside pve.

[BadSanta.6527]

i heard its good on scourage but havnt tired it though

[Tilastik.8193]

Some requests as a mainly open world player.

Skill 2- Perforate: Apply vulnerability on each hit.

Skill 3 - Addle : (Move the Isolate mechanic to Addle) Addle becomes the 1200 range spear throw, dazing the enemy, and flip-over to Distress (if it hit an foe). 

Distress will teleport to the marked target and fear or immobilized nearby enemies, but will not recharge Perforate.

Skill 4 - Isolate: Become a 450 or 600 range dash that generate Soul Shard and recharge Perforate.

Skill 5- Extirpate: Add a 1 or 2 seconds block before striking enemies, or gain stability when casting the skill.

[Brujeria.7536]

The more i test and play around with that weapon the more i feel the weapon isnt really meant for burst whatsoever.

Lets compare the damage of some other weapons with a gapcloser and a more burst or direct damage focused weapon set in wvw/pvp:

Willbender / Guard sword 3 - 648 damage 1.76 coefficient - block projectiles

Willbender / Guard sword 4 - 366 damage 1.0 coefficient - 750 range no real need for a setup, 3 second slow 2 second immob

Willbender / Guard sword 5 - total 735 damage 2.0 coefficient

 

Nec Spear 2 Perforate Damage 441 1.2 coefficient with possible 20% damage increase = 529,2 with 1.44 coefficient. 

Nec Spear skill 3 and 4 (the setup) combined 330 damage 0,9 coefficient, you get chill and maybe immob 1,5 seconds.

I mean you see - necro needs basicly 2 setup skills just to mimic a weaker version of Guard sword skill 4. Slow is way stronger then chill (as slow prevents attacks from happening, reducing the damage you take while chills damage reduce only applies once the skill goes on cooldown. Furthermore Guardian has at least two burst skills on that weapon set with more damage and all of the skills have a slower casttime.

Warrior Sword 

Skill 2 - 7 second leap 600 range 495 1.35 coefficient (basicly the movement skill deals almost as much damage as necro spears burst skill)

Skill 3 - 12 Second cooldown the "burst" skill deals 735 damage 2.0 coefficient under the best circumstances + a total of 48 seconds of bleed

Skill 4 - 12 second cooldown 550 damage 1.5 coefficient applies torment, cripple - follow up skill 734 damage 2.0 coefficient

Burst skill 972 damage 2.64 coefficient.

Again here compared to necro the warriors gapcloser deals almost more damage and the warrior also has 2 - 3 more burst skills on the same weapon set (if you wanna count the burst skill or not). all without any prerequesite or gimmick 

The thing here continues. Warrior spear deals a lot more burst damage on range with a multiple of skills, mesmer spear deals more damage with almost every weapon skill, even 1200 range skills (Guardian GB) deal more damage then this weapon.

This situation is amplified further by the fact that necro has very bad  flat % damage modifiers across the board.

Now comes the gimmick of necro spear: The soulshards. They dont really scale with power damage at all as this is siphon damage. Which in THEORY can be a good thing as they ignore enemy thougness but in reality other classes deal more damage by simply stacking more attack. Of course we need to factor in the healing also, which can be quite good numbers wise. But i dont need healing if i can kill my target so quickly that i dont need healing. Furthermore the excessive punishment of multiple targets: you dont generate as much shards as well as the damage from soulshards gets split between multiple targets, making it even harder to get your damage where its needed. (other burst skills simply deal the damage to each target hit)

I mean the rest of the weapon basicly screams "power damage" - no damaging conditions, relatively little conditions, full close range (apart from spear 4 ) but that is a sluggish and by design punishing scam.

So how to fix it?

If they want the weapon to be a real full power weapon we would need the following:

- massively increase skill 4 and skill 3 damage  and increasing the baseline daze as well as adding a strong baseline immob 

- Soulshard damage is applied to all targets hit in range per strike, healing per shard is heavily reduced after the second strike per shard (so if you burst 3 people all 3 get the full soulshard damage, but you get maybe only get 20% higher healing compared to what you would get now.)

- Get rid of the punishing skill 4 "isolated target" shards - hitting the gapcloser is already a guessing game against an awake target, catching the target isolated is unneeded punishing and you really cant controll that.   If you keep the gimmick give the full shards anyway and give another gimmick benefit for hitting a isolated target.

- Add power scaling to the siphon damage

If they want the weapon to be more of a hybrid / cele weapon add a condi aspect to it and do for example the following:

- AA causes bleed

- Skill 2 deals more damage and siphon damage per unique condition on the target

- Skill 3 deals a reasonable strong amount of poison

- Skill 4 projectile hit causes a blind + a blinding field, teleport causes bleeding or condi transfer

That being said the weapon really has its moments and can be a lot of fun- hitting perforate with max stacks on a low life target while being low life yourself can quickly change things and make the weapon feel strong. However getting in such a situation in a 1 on 1 fight is very hard and in group settings (be it zerg or smaller roamer groups) the damage is unreliable. you can try to go for a +1 on a somewhat isolated target, but a willbender would simply do it a lot better, faster and with less "if's". 

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

It's amazing that abet didn't even touch it, necro spear lacks well. Identity, it's like they took sword +gs and combined it..oh wait..they did. 

 

The whole under 50% go on weapons need to go. Now we have 4 that do that. 

But hey I guess pve it's doable.  

Or we could wait for the gemshop, anet might as well capitalize on it and start putting fixes for things in general in the gem shop.