Spellbreaker is not healthy for PvP Scene

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

29 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I don't know why people are confused facing you. What you said is true.

Full Counter is NOT an invuln. It is an evade frame that briefly grants you 1 stab.

I've had many instances where I was trying to FC during a team fight on a node, and some AoE boon remove ripped the stab and something like a DH F1 pulled me out of FC.

But hey, this forum has always lived in a l2p complaint kind of environment. What you expect?

Yeah. Lots of attacks coming within an admittedly small window can CC you prior to the evade frames starting. It's more likely to happen in PvE of all places, like the Ice Elemental boss in the Underground Facility Fractal. In PvP/WvW in a 1v1 or even 1v2 there isn't time to CC someone out of FC other than with a boon corrupt. The boon corrupt would get its damage negated, but the stability gets converted into fear prior to FC actually activating.

Everyone is right that DS+Staff+Spellbreaker is rather tanky, but it isn't because of any one thing, but the amalgamation of several. Keep in mind too that DS+Staff+Savage Instinct and Eternal Champion isn't a thing. Condi Zerker has sustain issues, but that stems from Lesser Blood Reckoning and Akeem being so easy for it to proc, the solution of which is to reduce the number of confusion stacks on Skull Grinder by 1. Full Counter has a well known CD reduction bug. Fix the bug and see what happens.

[Myror.7521]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 fun fact a mesmer can even CC you though fullcounter cause of daze mantra and daze burst comb xd

[aymnad.9023]

3 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 fun fact a mesmer can even CC you though fullcounter cause of daze mantra and daze burst comb xd

Even if you pressed your full counter randomly it would only happen once in blue moon and if you time for an attack animation from the mesmer OR the clone then it will not happen.

[Myror.7521]

@aymnad.9023 ye its pretty rare but its do able especialy when you comb it with the sword ambush Skill ^^

[aymnad.9023]

13 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@aymnad.9023 ye its pretty rare but its do able especialy when you comb it with the sword ambush Skill ^^

I find sword ambush a bit crazy in its own way but it also is really specific and the animation takes some time.

[SPESHAL.9106]

On 8/23/2024 at 12:55 PM, Flowki.7194 said:

This is fair enough, Anet have done a terrible job at this class overall, and thats a shame as it is one of the most iconic classes in this type of game. This is the cost of trying to be different.. rather than implimenting some tried and tested mainstays of what people expect from such a class.

 

The macro point is that a new expansion brings in many new players as well as returning players.  The things highlighted in this thread...not just from warriors...but other professions are what turn new people off immediately.  They hit buttons and literally find it doing nothing to the other player and even doing damage to themselves.  That's been a familiar chat in sPvP from new players asking for help.

It doesn't have to be checkers in terms of ease of play, but once they realize they have to keep track of tons of little icons of boon spamming professions...plus clones/minions/pets...plus abilities that you press once and then have to decide whether to press again...plus graphics complicating it...plus some professions able to instagib them totally from stealth or constantly cc'd...and guess what happens.  People quit and you're left with the same few people playing PvP who have at least mastered some of the learning curve... or win-traded themselves to the top... which adds ANOTHER layer of BS that new players say "peace out".

There obviously needs to be some sophisticated gameplay in the game to keep existing players challenged, but there's also facts about how the existing model has worked.  It's not popular...not supported...and what once had a professional pvp scene is now down to win-trading leaderboards and tons of mediocrity that gets translated into pseudo "balance".

Then, when they miss a certain outlier like with SB warrior, it totally corrupts things even more because it evidences either poor internal testing or a clear detachment from caring about serious outliers in certain abilities compared to even other abilities in that same profession...much less other professions.

Edited August 27 by SPESHAL.9106

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, SPESHAL.9106 said:

The macro point is that a new expansion brings in many new players as well as returning players.  The things highlighted in this thread...not just from warriors...but other professions are what turn new people off immediately.  They hit buttons and literally find it doing nothing to the other player and even doing damage to themselves.  That's been a familiar chat in sPvP from new players asking for help.

It doesn't have to be checkers in terms of ease of play, but once they realize they have to keep track of tons of little icons of boon spamming professions...plus clones/minions/pets...plus abilities that you press once and then have to decide whether to press again...plus graphics complicating it...plus some professions able to instagib them totally from stealth or constantly cc'd...and guess what happens.  People quit and you're left with the same few people playing PvP who have at least mastered some of the learning curve... or win-traded themselves to the top... which adds ANOTHER layer of BS that new players say "peace out".

There obviously needs to be some sophisticated gameplay in the game to keep existing players challenged, but there's also facts about how the existing model has worked.  It's not popular...not supported...and what once had a professional pvp scene is now down to win-trading leaderboards and tons of mediocrity that gets translated into pseudo "balance".

Then, when they miss a certain outlier like with SP, it totally corrupts things even more because it evidences either poor internal testing or a clear detachment from caring about serious outliers in certain abilities compared to even other abilities in that same profession...much less other professions.

Ive played the game for over two year and still struggle badly to wade through the boon and animation spam to see if I can do damage or CC. Most of that struggle also comes from the fact that if you take your eyes off the opponent to booncheck, you increase the risk of missing an animation preceeding a 8-12k crit.

 

The animations/boom spam on many abilitys/specs are way over the top, while some important things, like stab, aeg, or visuals like ele immune, are burried in all the mess. What striked me as the most odd, is that some ranged/high dmg abilitys have next to no broadcasting, while others set off a firework display. You can just tell there have been multiple people in charge, with multiple different ideas at different times, 0 direction or continuity, that much is absolutely clear.

 

The base mechanics are a mess (aside from dodge system), stealth implimentation is a mess, many traits are a mess, many weapons are a mess, the MMR is a mess, to sort all that out? seems like they just decided to make a new game instead.. probably the wiser choice. But still, I would not pay for Gw3 given what I have seen in Gw2. I would play it for free if available.. I regret paying for Gw2 expantions, because at no point did they ever strike me as a company that takes pride in the sPVP side of things. The shear neglect of the mode has me wondering why I was so foolish to invest in a game mode that is clearly despised by the developers. There is not even a consistant 2v2 / 3v3 mode, and only 1 conquest mode. How the hell did any of us invest in this kitten?

 

Its just sad that GW2 sPVP could easily have been the best pvp in any MMORG, had they not abandoned it. Even in its abandoned state, I am struggling to find an alternative that does not have extreme P2W, or low quality pvp for the price tag (according to reviews)

Edited August 27 by Flowki.7194

[Eventine.8024]

On 8/23/2024 at 6:19 AM, Myror.7521 said:

Can we then also nerf ........ stealth spam deadeyes? Or perma invuln mes? Or rangers? What about necr with all its ccs? Vindicator with all its dodges? Maybe also Guardian blinds plus Aegis Blocks? 

Love how Ele it is not in the list. That's how I know it is a smart comment ❤️

[Eventine.8024]

On 8/23/2024 at 1:24 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

A bad Spellbreaker can get wrecked in seconds, but a good Spellbreaker can potentially win any 1v1 and you can't stop him from doing it if he's good enough.

Ok! Can we get this on ele too? Oh, no?!?!? The average comment on ele posts is "I Don't care if it is harder, the ceiling of the class should be in line with others, and I don't care if this moves the floor too low! Play other classes", so why this type of logic is ok for warriors and not ok for eles?

And I agree with what you said: bad warriors are bad and good warriors are good. My problem is that warrior gets it too easy. A good warrior is a medium Thief, or a medium ele. I have no problem about good warriors winning all the fights, but they have to be good. For example, reducing all blocks to 1s would increase a lot the skill ceiling making it harder to play the class very well, while good warriors remain good cuz they know when and how to land that 1s block.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

28 minutes ago, Eventine.8024 said:

Ok! Can we get this on ele too? Oh, no?!?!? The average comment on ele posts is "I Don't care if it is harder, the ceiling of the class should be in line with others, and I don't care if this moves the floor too low! Play other classes", so why this type of logic is ok for warriors and not ok for eles?

And I agree with what you said: bad warriors are bad and good warriors are good. My problem is that warrior gets it too easy. A good warrior is a medium Thief, or a medium ele. I have no problem about good warriors winning all the fights, but they have to be good. For example, reducing all blocks to 1s would increase a lot the skill ceiling making it harder to play the class very well, while good warriors remain good cuz they know when and how to land that 1s block.

It is important to point out that the only thing War/Spellbreaker is good at it, is 1v1 dueling on side nodes. There have always been better roamers, better team fighters, and then War never really gets good versions of support at all.

If that is the only thing its design is good at, then it should definitely be one of the alpa side nodes, keywords there "one of" not "the only".

But current Spear/Staff is atrociously overperforming to where not only has it allowed Spellbreaker to be the indisputable only choice on a side, but now they also debatably the best roamer and team fighter. The main ingredient with this problem is the #4 skill on the Spear. It works like an Ele Scepter Fire #2 that has way way less of a telegraph that happens 3x faster and deals a lot more damage. A couple Spellbreakers who are on the same team can coordinate their Spear #4s together and just instantly nuke targets. That attack ignores projectile reflect and they can put unblockable on it, and is a super inobvious/quick cast that follows targets wherever they go, even through ports. I don't even think I'd call it +ing at this point but rather nuking. There is a difference.

Edited August 28 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Eventine.8024]

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It is important to point out that the only thing War/Spellbreaker is good at it, is 1v1 dueling on side nodes. There have always been better roamers, better team fighters, and then War never really gets good versions of support at all.

You are shifting the problem and your argument has the same logic issue as before when compared to ele or other specs. If (CURRENTLY) it does not have other meta roles, it does not mean that it should be overpower on a single role. Buff other roles and fix/nerf the overpower one.

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 8/26/2024 at 5:56 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Lots of attacks coming within an admittedly small window can CC you prior to the evade frames starting

Whatever the time window for that is, my test shows it's less than a tenth of a second, if any at all, and it can only happen with multiple attackers. Not even worth mentioning. 

19 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

a mesmer can even CC you though fullcounter cause of daze mantra and daze burst comb

More a flex than anything else, it can be done but you're spending 2cc (one of them with AT LEAST 24s cd) to interrupt a skill which will be up again in 8s. I do that from time to time, but it's far from viable and it really shows just the kind of skill gap you need to have to punish a spellbreaker.

Edited August 28 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Myror.7521]

@Terrorhuz.4695 i mean i yet punished every spellbreaker on my strength warr i met ^^ so its not as hard as peops think it is. However they also mostly not using full defence line soo xD

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Whatever the time window for that is, my test shows it's less than a tenth of a second, if any at all, and it can only happen with multiple attackers. Not even worth mentioning. 

More a flex than anything else, it can be done but you're spending 2cc (one of them with AT LEAST 24s cd) to interrupt a skill which will be up again in 8s. I do that from time to time, but it's far from viable and it really shows just the kind of skill gap you need to have to punish a spellbreaker.

You use the instant cast CC to clear the stab right before the longer cast longer duration CC applies. 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

8 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You use the instant cast CC to clear the stab right before the longer cast longer duration CC applies. 

Classes with this kind of tool: thief (which lacks the damage to punch through the other defensives of a warrior) and mesmer (clones will proc the fc before you can pull your stuff off)

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Classes with this kind of tool: thief (which lacks the damage to punch through the other defensives of a warrior) and mesmer (clones will proc the fc before you can pull your stuff off)

Necros can also corrupt the stability into fear.

[WingSwipe.3084]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The main ingredient with this problem is the #4 skill on the Spear. It works like an Ele Scepter Fire #2 that has way way less of a telegraph that happens 3x faster and deals a lot more damage. A couple Spellbreakers who are on the same team can coordinate their Spear #4s together and just instantly nuke targets. That attack ignores projectile reflect and they can put unblockable on it, and is a super inobvious/quick cast that follows targets wherever they go, even through ports. I don't even think I'd call it +ing at this point but rather nuking. There is a difference.

Gods Spearmarshal makes me happy as a pZerker.

Finally a weapon that allows me to deal with thieves, the conniving bastards. Such a terrible shame SPB is going to get another weapon nerfed like staff and sword last week.

Id say to keep it as it is and just remove the damage multipliers from SPB so pZerker can still enjoy the spear for the damage if your going glassy. Spearmarshal is the one consistent damage source on spear since the primal stops casting the nanosecond the enemy leaves its 45 degree cone of attack, makes it very inconsistent. The rest of warrior spear besides AA is skillshots

Id say that spear is pretty balanced as a weapon in general as long as SPB isnt involved in the equation.

And your right, it casts fast but that also means its easier to dodge. The only time you can get a kill with Spearmarshal is if you've burned all defensives and dodges on your enemy, or if your enemy is clueless about the giant circle around their feet.

Anet has been systematically removing multi hitting attacks from warriors strongest power weapons, thats why blind and aegis spam is so affective against them. Spear has multi hitting damage via Spearmarshal and Primal burst, but spearmarshal is on a 20 sec cd and the primal is fidgety at the best of times.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

24 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Necros can also corrupt the stability into fear.

37 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You use the INSTANT CAST CC to clear the stab right before the longer cast longer duration CC applies

 

[Shagie.7612]

so interesting how spellbreaker went from something pretty universally agreed upon to be a well designed pvp spec in pof to now having toxic mechanics despite almost nothing about it changing lol

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

35 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

so interesting how spellbreaker went from something pretty universally agreed upon to be a well designed pvp spec in pof to now having toxic mechanics despite almost nothing about it changing lol

It's the compounding effect of Staff and Spear getting added in. Spellbreaker was well designed as it added in much needed defense, but now we have more defenses so the amount of damage it has along with the artificially lower FC CD creates a problem. The problem isn't Spellbreaker, Staff, or Spear individually, but in tandem. You are not seeing issues with other especs with these weapons. So, fix the CD bug and move some of the damage from Spellbreaker into other traitlines.

[WingSwipe.3084]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's the compounding effect of Staff and Spear getting added in. Spellbreaker was well designed as it added in much needed defense, but now we have more defenses so the amount of damage it has along with the artificially lower FC CD creates a problem. The problem isn't Spellbreaker, Staff, or Spear individually, but in tandem. You are not seeing issues with other especs with these weapons. So, fix the CD bug and move some of the damage from Spellbreaker into other traitlines.

Only problem is now that these weapons are out and about you cant put the genie back in the bottle.

Thusly we have to even out SPB accordingly.

[Lighter.5631]

Why is this not hot fixed, i don't get it.

nerfing defiant stance is the easiest bandage fix with minimum damage done to warrior.

because nerfing everything else will just break warrior and have to rebuild a lot of stuff,

since everything is built around full counter now and the only time (spear) they tried to make it for the rest of the warrior, it breaks the game with spellbreaker.

we all know spellbreaker and rest of the warrior are not on the same base.

this is what happens when they make anything without a clear guidance and vision.

[Lighter.5631]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's the compounding effect of Staff and Spear getting added in. Spellbreaker was well designed as it added in much needed defense, but now we have more defenses so the amount of damage it has along with the artificially lower FC CD creates a problem. The problem isn't Spellbreaker, Staff, or Spear individually, but in tandem. You are not seeing issues with other especs with these weapons. So, fix the CD bug and move some of the damage from Spellbreaker into other traitlines.

Spellbreaker was never well designed to begin with and it was basically just core warrior with extra block every 8 seconds

and without sacrificing everything for adrenaline, with a balanced build like strength core war, the actual usage of burst skill tier difference is literally minimum,

also they trying to use an elite spec to fix warrior in PvP/WvW instead of fixing the core problem is already a stupid decision.

not to mention when they bake key mechanics into burst skills, like leap, spellbreaker dagger gets 3 leaps with full counter reset, it's 50% mobility increase compared to core dagger. same with spear burst evade, it's 100% increase evade uptime, also having full counter on another cooldown is basically pseudo ammo system for burst skill, so you are able to spam burst back to back that's more than just simple 100% uptime increase.

Edited August 28 by Lighter.5631

[Alabastrum.9361]

Spellbreaker was always the reason warriors could not get nice things. It is fundamentaly unbalanced and I hate the spec. This started in 2019 when I started to play again after a long break and continued even in 2022-2024 when I would start.to play it myself when I knew I couldn't be bothered to concentrate and wanted easy results. Warrior easy mode.

I still have always played some variation of core power warrior at the same time despite T3 adrenaline being more and more of a joke.

When I stopped getting expansions It got worse obviously. Staff probably was and might still be the best warrior weapon of all time and I got to the point where I knew for a fact that even If I played my best. The other guy still needs to kitten up to lose a 1v1 to me.

I am sure that the additiion of another beast of a weapon like warrior spear just continues down this path.

The path is:

1. play the newest broken kitten anet comes up with till it gets nerfed.

2. Go backt to 1.

That has always been the case and any player I ever known that did not follow that path eventually got burned out.

So stop complaining. Play what you think is the most broken, prove it. If you do not or this is not fun you should quit the game for good. It has not changed in the past 5 years and its not gonna change now.

I quit when I saw the beta of spears. I came back to the forums to enjoy the spectacle of a word of flames. It is so beautiful to see the world burn if you do not have to live on it.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

23 minutes ago, Alabastrum.9361 said:

That has always been the case and any player I ever known that did not follow that path eventually got burned out.

*still waving the tattered power zerker flag*

Quote

 Play what you think is the most broken, prove it. If you do not or this is not fun you should quit the game for good. 

True, but nah.

Beating people with underpowered nonsense is probably just as beautiful as watching the devs and forum repeatedly walk into the same rake of a warrior spec getting turned into a superbunker, then getting its power nerfed or complained about on specs/skills that had nothing to do with it. Bandwagoning isnt for me. 

I'm here until it stops being funny~

Edited August 28 by Azure The Heartless.3261