Stop Treating WvW like a GvG environment

[Charall.4710]

2 minutes ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

And before you claim about "checking every 2 hrs", look at WR and tell me how much you trust them to implement new systems.

If the old WvW team is truly back I trust them a great deal.

[Triptaminas.4789]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What’s the point with competetive seasons if you’re giving specific worlds advantages so they won’t loose?

Just give some actually good skins, or titles, or some dot in achievement panel that says "u was in ze best team during season whatever" for winners, and then cope prizes for participants. 

Literally all it takes, buffs for stats is folly, expensive tradable rewards is also folly unless alt/bandwagon/match manipulation and other kitten is fixed, I doubt it can be fixed at all tho, some people will always find a way how to game the system.

The motivation and "prize" for wvw activities is easy to create without messing it all up. Anet just have issues with rewarding performance/time/skill, they want to give everyone equal rewards for minimal amount of efforts that is shown thru all game modes, rewards, and class balancing. If anything the high performers is punished.

Hence there never be any actual prizes or motivation to win matches even if wvw game mode can be improved magnitude of times by throwing some exclusive skin of spear or headgear or whatever novelty once in 6 weeks for winning teams.

Equality of outcome not equality of opportunity, this philosophy is really deeply rooted into nu-western devs the last 10y or so, seen in many mmos. Ideological stuff or failure of reasoning and attempt to transfer mobile game sheananigans into PC, idk which, don't think it really matters which is either. Point is that there is easy fixes and solutions to many issues, such as one discussed here, yet it won't be fixed because devs that inherited the game thinks it will make game worse either less fun or profitable.

No rewards, no motivation, tiers means nothing. Wvw daily takes 5 minutes, weekly 30. All classess homogenized. Biki skins and cat chairs. That's it. Karma train bro.

 

Edited September 7 by Triptaminas.4789

[Chaba.5410]

48 minutes ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

Equality of outcome not equality of opportunity, this philosophy is really deeply rooted into nu-western devs the last 10y or so, seen in many mmos

The ridiculousness of this statement though is evidenced by the numerous complaints on this forum about boonballs. Can have equal numbers but one side loses because the other is in a 50 man organized squad which forum suggests needs to be nerfed because the other can't remove boons.

Edited September 7 by Chaba.5410

[Charall.4710]

6 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Can have equal numbers but one side loses because the other is in a 50 man organized squad which forum suggests needs to be nerfed because the other can't remove boons.

They keep nerfing boon stripping so that makes that argument a moot point.

[Chaba.5410]

4 minutes ago, Charall.4710 said:

They keep nerfing boon stripping so that makes that argument a moot point.

Organize then if that's the counter play. What's wrong with that?

Edited September 7 by Chaba.5410

[Charall.4710]

14 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Organize then if that's the counter play. What's wrong with that?

Only current counter-play is boon balling the boon balling.

[Cuks.8241]

On 9/3/2024 at 7:32 PM, Cuks.8241 said:

Here are some numbers, did them manually, hopefully didn't typo. 

These are cumulative numbers of kills for NA, all tiers, all borders per week. I'm more interested in EU but NA has less tiers so it was faster.

2023.05.27 - 2023.06.03 - 473 314

2023.07.29 - 2023.08.05 - 496 048

2023.08.26 - 2023.09.02 - 533 577

2024.02.10 - 2024.02.17 - 440 444

2024.05.25 - 2024.06.01 - 459 082

2024.06.08 - 2024.06.15 - 454 688

2024.07.13 - 2024.07.20 - 402 449

2024.08.03 - 2024.08.10 - 414 928

2024.08.24 - 2024.08.31 - 437052

The numbers are definitely substantially lower compared to last year. I'm not sure though if the numbers are actually lower to pre-WR. They do seem to be but it looks like they start to pick up in last week of August. And that's exactly the time when JW hit this year - at least our guild we took a time off for wvw. A full trend would be much clearer.

I've added the latest week and also the first week of September for last year for a direct comparison. Also added additional July 2023 data point to have an idea about the summer holiday dynamics which should also be approx at the same time of year as the WR hit.

Also I've noticed some discrepancies in data on the kills.werdes site on different displays which should as far as I see be the same. But they do correlate and seem to be consistent (the detail view sums to less kills than on the front overview page) and I am using the same methodology all the time.

2023.05.27 - 2023.06.03 - 473 314

2023.07.15 - 2023.07.22 - 455 611

2023.07.29 - 2023.08.05 - 496 048

2023.08.26 - 2023.09.02 - 533 577

2023.09.02 - 2023.09.09 - 541 403

2024.02.10 - 2024.02.17 - 440 444

2024.05.25 - 2024.06.01 - 459 082

2024.06.08 - 2024.06.15 - 454 688

2024.07.13 - 2024.07.20 - 402 449 (5 tiers)

2024.08.03 - 2024.08.10 - 414 928

2024.08.24 - 2024.08.31 - 437 052

2024.08.31 - 2024.09.07 - 521 617

The definite conclusion now on a sole data point from Sept 2024 is that WR saved the WvW as we are closing in on 2023 numbers. (joke, just how some people here analyse the data).

Again only kills - k+d would be better but I don't feel like doing this manually anymore.

[Safty.7326]

Any one got stats on before and after regularity of objective turnover cos to me this gamemode is just an extension of pve now. So yes player activity probabaly is increasing but this gamemode niche is dead for most vets I would wager. I raid log to fight and don't waste my time with anything else in WvW....its pve meta maps with pvp as an after thought. No longer will pvers complain they are wasting time on objectives that can be defended, they need only afk in a blob by the people manning seige.

Their decisions to attract this behavior only makes sense cos like said wvw is small pop and niche; so attracting the major pop of pvers by designing game around their preferences only makes sense

[Jackthetripper.9035]

I remember when I could just log in to WvW and just start having fun. Now my gaming schedule/desire to play has to align with the schedule set forth by my guild in order to experience engaging gameplay. 

We need to go back.

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Charall.4710 said:

You dont give them world advantages so that they don't lose, you give them a scaling stat bonus to help lower population servers fight.

Except tiers where distinctly separated in high population (high tier) and low population (low tier). The main arguments people have for wanting seasons/monolithic worlds/static tiers back is that "each world is in their right place and stay there fighting eqvivalent sized worlds". Of course most of the people wanting that was probably on a high tier stacked world but lets just ignore that.

If you give a handicap to a world not in it's "right place" per competetive seasons on monolithic worlds, then yes you are literally giving them an advantage so that they dont loose ie drop tier. Why else would you give them advantage? The very point of the seasons would be that not competetive (ie low population) worlds drop tier.

[Shadow.2097]

4 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Organize then if that's the counter play. What's wrong with that?

Because some people can't commit to the 3 nights a week you must be present to join an organised guild, people playing Guild Wars since 2005 and have kids and RL to take care of. I can't spend 3 nights a week on discord with a bunch of tryhard students. Shouldn't have to play organised to enjoy the game mode. Not only that but the current organised squad meta is incredibly boring to play, complete w pressing spam fest. 

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

5 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Organize then if that's the counter play. What's wrong with that?

The amount of time and work not to mention how many on your "server" are willing to put forth both. That is what's wrong with it. Most players willing to do so are already in these guilds, while everyone else is just frustrated or nowindifferent about the mode. This is just like when raids came out over dungeons and fractals, it ended up being too much for the vast majority of the playerbase in terms of getting enough players that had the time and willingness to put in the work. Anet continued to try and push raids for the next few years until they tried strikes, which also is just a lukewarm version of raids. The guild centric WR has pushed many average players the wrong direction(just look at public tags), and unless it starts balancing servers better especially for the first week of each restructure, we will soon see another tier drop so the organized ones can consistently have content without having to hunt for it(I have seen too much of this in about almost half the weeks of WR).

Again, this is not what we as players want, we want players to be encouraged to play, but some groups are so kitten organized there is just no chance, the fights that do happen are not even always close, many are one sided for kills. It's rare to see one with heavy casualties on both sides(unless it's a 3 way or a keep farm that eventually folds).

[Cuks.8241]

57 minutes ago, Shadow.2097 said:

Because some people can't commit to the 3 nights a week you must be present to join an organised guild, people playing Guild Wars since 2005 and have kids and RL to take care of. I can't spend 3 nights a week on discord with a bunch of tryhard students. Shouldn't have to play organised to enjoy the game mode. Not only that but the current organised squad meta is incredibly boring to play, complete w pressing spam fest. 

We have core guilds in alliance that do require certain participation during  raids and having specific builds available for the  guild comps.

Than we have just alliance members that can play how and when they want but dont have access to guild  raids.  

But it is true you need discord and the focus is on providing all kind of content for alliance members. Interest from players  to join is big though. Pretty much full now.

[Gearfried the Iron Knight.2710]

OP is extremely upset that his cookie cutter Cele roamer build he copied from Guildjen has had its effectiveness reduced; which, by the way, roaming is still alive and well as roamers are constantly camping near map spawn points so they can get "sick highlights" on people who usually aren't even paying attention. I like how roamers constantly bemoan how guilds are "wrecking the game mode" yet they refuse to step foot into structured PvP while demanding that the game mode be catered to their whims.

This is an MMO, yet God forbid any guilds try to establish any form of organized play that doesn't consist of Maguuma/HoD/SoS "gameplay" which consists of just killing tower and keep lords over and over again. People bellyached about there being 5 tiers because there was no one to fight at 11am on a weekday, so now we get to have 4 tiers where everyone gets queued out!

It's like OP logged into the forums to complain, glanced over and saw "GUILD WARS 2" and then struggled to manifest the word "guild" in his mind before making this thread.

[Triptaminas.4789]

8 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

The ridiculousness of this statement though is evidenced by the numerous complaints on this forum about boonballs. Can have equal numbers but one side loses because the other is in a 50 man organized squad which forum suggests needs to be nerfed because the other can't remove boons.

Yes movement and skill still somewhat matter, bad blob gon get rekt by blob that can move and actually know how to play their class at basic level, like when start mashing keyboard and not waste cds pre push or smtg. 

Zerg busting is basically completely written off tho, the handful of really good specialised players can't bust a blobs anymore. In case of two proper comps meeting it ends up as Chinese gvg, skill irrelevant as long as builds somewhat meta. 

The target caps for dps skills reduced, strips reduced, boon appliance and condi spam ramped up to infinity, cleanse and healing overflow and tcaps makes it so support just need to smash buttons, unless really sweaty cloud it's folly to fight without your own boonball.

Like I don't understand wtf u even tried to point, "muh your rant is nonsense because forums complain about consistent ramp up for boon reapliance and significant nerfs to boon stripping where at this point u have 1strip/corrupt to 10 boons popping at same tick instantly reaplied" what??? Like... How it's related to my point that there is consistent trend and behavior shown from devs that tends to eliminate skill gap between skilled and newb while rewarding minimal efforts and not really rewarding extremely complex gameplay? Not even that, the top tier achievements in game, that takes most dedication gives u basically nothing, there is no more catering left to actual skilled players.

How tf your remark related to this? I can't make sense of it or find relevance. Im not a smart person so maybe your argument is just too smart for me to comprehend. 

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

7 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Except tiers where distinctly separated in high population (high tier) and low population (low tier). The main arguments people have for wanting seasons/monolithic worlds/static tiers back is that "each world is in their right place and stay there fighting eqvivalent sized worlds". Of course most of the people wanting that was probably on a high tier stacked world but lets just ignore that.

If you give a handicap to a world not in it's "right place" per competetive seasons on monolithic worlds, then yes you are literally giving them an advantage so that they dont loose ie drop tier. Why else would you give them advantage? The very point of the seasons would be that not competetive (ie low population) worlds drop tier.

Also, lets jut give stat buffs to the "underpowered" team, so that the roamers on the "winning team' start a fight with an inherent disadvantage.

"its their fault for trying to fight while disadvantaged"
You know who else thinks like that? the Boonballers!
If a person on the winning team isn't allowed to "win", becuz the "underpowered team has to".
Then OP is suggesting to sacrifice roamers on specific teams to cater to their idea of "balance".
Or straight up forcing ppl on the winning team to join a boonball, so as to not be disadvantaged.

So many "fixes" proposed in this forum are so shortsighted they actually promote boonball gameplay, its insane.

[Chaba.5410]

47 minutes ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

Zerg busting is basically completely written off tho, the handful of really good specialised players can't bust a blobs anymore. In case of two proper comps meeting it ends up as Chinese gvg, skill irrelevant as long as builds somewhat meta. 

1) I don't find that to be true at all given some of the gameplay I've seen the past few weeks.  Show how it's true.

2) Two equally skilled forces with "proper comps" can indeed stalemate and that's been seen throughout the years across different metas.  The whole point of the GvG movement was to eliminate variables like differences in numbers and builds in order to play around more with skill.  It's like watching a great football match where the teams are so evenly skilled that the score remains 0-0 and the only goal that happens is because one team made a mistake, but that single mistake doesn't happen for like 45m of game time. 

3) This isn't the first years of the game anymore where a larger percentage of the playing population didn't know anything about builds and what is effective and not effective in WvW than they do now.  Yea, it's going to be harder to find groups to "pick on".

 

47 minutes ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

How tf your remark related to this?

My remark was in reference to your assertion that devs are programming "equality of outcome".  If they really were, then why would you believe that zerg-busting by a handful of specialized players is dead?  Equality of outcome would be seen in things like giving outnumbered players a stat buff big enough to have 5 players go against 30 and win.  Or a return to high damage arrow carts.  The kind of zerg-busting I think you are thinking of would require these kinds of advantages to be given to the outnumbered players.

Once the GvG movement started putting their builds and comps up on websites like Metabattle, it began the wide-scale diffusion of that information to other groups that didn't GvG, no longer confined to each individual server's forum/website/teamspeak.  The devs didn't do that.

Edited September 7 by Chaba.5410

[Hellscream.9081]

Hellscream.9081 is Typing....

[Chaba.5410]

4 hours ago, Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

The amount of time and work not to mention how many on your "server" are willing to put forth both. That is what's wrong with it. Most players willing to do so are already in these guilds, while everyone else is just frustrated or nowindifferent about the mode. This is just like when raids came out over dungeons and fractals, it ended up being too much for the vast majority of the playerbase in terms of getting enough players that had the time and willingness to put in the work. Anet continued to try and push raids for the next few years until they tried strikes, which also is just a lukewarm version of raids. The guild centric WR has pushed many average players the wrong direction(just look at public tags), and unless it starts balancing servers better especially for the first week of each restructure, we will soon see another tier drop so the organized ones can consistently have content without having to hunt for it(I have seen too much of this in about almost half the weeks of WR).

Again, this is not what we as players want, we want players to be encouraged to play, but some groups are so kitten organized there is just no chance, the fights that do happen are not even always close, many are one sided for kills. It's rare to see one with heavy casualties on both sides(unless it's a 3 way or a keep farm that eventually folds).

I think players can go to any game and find this to be true.  All online games seem to have some amount of work involved to engage in group content.  I don't think you can remove such a thing from any form of group content.  Even in PvE map metas, the map chat can get pretty spicy.

Additionally, what you describe has been "the struggle" since the first year of the game.  Reams and reams have been written on old server forum websites about "training the pugs" and how to get them into voice chat and how to get them to bring a WvW build, etc.  It's a never-ending struggle and the only thing WR seems to have changed with regards to it is shaking up comfort zones.  Like you wrote, most players willing to do so are already doing so.  If a player was never "doing so", why would that ever change?

Edited September 7 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

9 hours ago, Charall.4710 said:

Only current counter-play is boon balling the boon balling.

Then that's your option, I suppose.  Do you want to win or not?

[Chaba.5410]

4 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

We have core guilds in alliance that do require certain participation during  raids and having specific builds available for the  guild comps.

Than we have just alliance members that can play how and when they want but dont have access to guild  raids.  

But it is true you need discord and the focus is on providing all kind of content for alliance members. Interest from players  to join is big though. Pretty much full now.

An alliance one of my accounts is in is made this way too.  There's some core guilds in it with their own requirements and then we invited a lot of the old server community scouts and roamers who wanted to also join.

[Triptaminas.4789]

11 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

1) I don't find that to be true at all given some of the gameplay I've seen the past few weeks.  Show how it's true.

2) Two equally skilled forces with "proper comps" can indeed stalemate and that's been seen throughout the years across different metas.  The whole point of the GvG movement was to eliminate variables like differences in numbers and builds in order to play around more with skill.  It's like watching a great football match where the teams are so evenly skilled that the score remains 0-0 and the only goal that happens is because one team made a mistake, but that single mistake doesn't happen for like 45m of game time. 

3) This isn't the first years of the game anymore where a larger percentage of the playing population didn't know anything about builds and what is effective and not effective in WvW than they do now.  Yea, it's going to be harder to find groups to "pick on".

 

My remark was in reference to your assertion that devs are programming "equality of outcome".  If they really were, then why would you believe that zerg-busting by a handful of specialized players is dead?  Equality of outcome would be seen in things like giving outnumbered players a stat buff big enough to have 5 players go against 30 and win.  Or a return to high damage arrow carts.  The kind of zerg-busting I think you are thinking of would require these kinds of advantages to be given to the outnumbered players.

Once the GvG movement started putting their builds and comps up on websites like Metabattle, it began the wide-scale diffusion of that information to other groups that didn't GvG, no longer confined to each individual server's forum/website/teamspeak.  The devs didn't do that.

Lol, lmao even. Idk where to start. Good that I checked your gw2mists real quick to see how much u actually seen "these last weeks". Some of you really spend more time pooposting in forums than u spend in game playing the game mode u write about.

the fact u didnt understood "Chinese gvg" was enough on its own to write all your banter away tho, I regret reading this demagoguery, honestly, as it bringed utter confusion.

This is prob most bizarre wvw and game perception after that guy a month back, who was printing threads every few days about com snipping and squads sabotaging their own matches. Honestly I'm speechless, idk what to say, almost everything is so wrong that explaining or talking about it feels wrong on itself.

Most confusing in all this is your fixation on dead gvg scene with their stale builds and 5 guilds fighting each other over and over again in tiny microcosm, did the " Chinese gvg" meme actually triggered this? Are you guys just using chatbots or smtg? That would explain a lot.

Edited September 8 by Triptaminas.4789

[Charall.4710]

On 9/7/2024 at 4:28 AM, Jackthetripper.9035 said:

I remember when I could just log in to WvW and just start having fun. Now my gaming schedule/desire to play has to align with the schedule set forth by my guild in order to experience engaging gameplay. 

We need to go back.

Gonne keep giving hearts and upvotes to posts like these and honestly encourage everyone else who misses the old WvW system to do so as well to send the message to Anet that the new system is bad.

[One more for the road.8950]

9 hours ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

Lol, lmao even. Idk where to start. Good that I checked your gw2mists real quick to see how much u actually seen "these last weeks". Some of you really spend more time pooposting in forums than u spend in game playing the game mode u write about.

the fact u didnt understood "Chinese gvg" was enough on its own to write all your banter away tho, I regret reading this demagoguery, honestly, as it bringed utter confusion.

This is prob most bizarre wvw and game perception after that guy a month back, who was printing threads every few days about com snipping and squads sabotaging their own matches. Honestly I'm speechless, idk what to say, almost everything is so wrong that explaining or talking about it feels wrong on itself.

Most confusing in all this is your fixation on dead gvg scene with their stale builds and 5 guilds fighting each other over and over again in tiny microcosm, did the " Chinese gvg" meme actually triggered this? Are you guys just using chatbots or smtg? That would explain a lot.

Doesn't really sound like you know the GvG scene either. Stale builds it is not. And you can't find them on Metabattle either. Well, perhaps when people aren't using them any more. Unless you're talking about OF GvG, in which you should probably specify that in between everything else, including Chinese GvG. No need to check my GW2mists, I accidentally started writing while logged in on an alt account once and kept going to not confuse the matter. 

[Chaba.5410]

13 hours ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

Lol, lmao even. Idk where to start. Good that I checked your gw2mists real quick to see how much u actually seen "these last weeks". Some of you really spend more time pooposting in forums than u spend in game playing the game mode u write about.

the fact u didnt understood "Chinese gvg" was enough on its own to write all your banter away tho, I regret reading this demagoguery, honestly, as it bringed utter confusion.

This is prob most bizarre wvw and game perception after that guy a month back, who was printing threads every few days about com snipping and squads sabotaging their own matches. Honestly I'm speechless, idk what to say, almost everything is so wrong that explaining or talking about it feels wrong on itself.

Most confusing in all this is your fixation on dead gvg scene with their stale builds and 5 guilds fighting each other over and over again in tiny microcosm, did the " Chinese gvg" meme actually triggered this? Are you guys just using chatbots or smtg? That would explain a lot.

That's right.  You don't know what you don't know so where to start?  Congrats on only seeing a piece of the full picture.  Hint: some of us play more than one account.  I'm not going to sock-puppet on the forums.

But nothing you wrote says anything about your assertion that devs are programming "equality of outcome"; if anything this whole thread is one long complaint about the lack of equality of outcome between outnumbered players and map queues.  Deflection isn't a good look on you.

Edited September 8 by Chaba.5410