Anet, Please Stop Humanizing Interdimensional Alien Monsters

[VoiceOfUnreason.5976]

As the title suggests, this is a plee to stop what you're in the process of doing with the Titans and course correct. One of the biggest reasons the Kryptis failed to land as a faction is that about halfway in the story, you took these evil rift creatures, with unknowable goals, an unimaginable threat... and "brought them down to earth". In the blink of an eye, you stole all mystique and intrigue from the race and turned them into something that could genuinely be interchanged between any other race on Tyria. Like genuinely, once you get to inner Nayos and start engaging with these people. All they are is a rebel faction attempting to take down an evil dictator. They way they talk, the way the act, you could have replaced all of them with "humans from a foreign land" and it would have changed nothing about their story and conflict.

And like seriously, THIS is not a character that should be organizing a rebellion: https://imgur.com/a/aA55mAN
That's an unknowable space monster, and should be treated as such.

I don't want to go too far into this, because I think the SotO problem has been beaten to death already. But I say all of this to preface what I'm about to say:

I think you're in danger of going the same route with the Titans. I was super on-board with Greer. He seemed alien, his goals unknown. He speaks in a very cryptic way. Walks and acts like something where I can be like... "Yeah, I can see some primitive race worshiping this thing". Definitely happy with Greer. AND THEN CAME DECIMA. And she just completely ruined all of that mystique. Cliche, loud mouthed Disney villain. WAY TOO HUMAN. Way too recognizable. And again, something that could legitimately be interchangeable with anything we've fought before. And frankly, Ura is giving me those vibes too. I'm begging you not to let the Titans go down the same route as the Kryptis. Make them interesting. Make them something new. Don't fall back into tired villain writing tropes. You have a chance for something really cool, but dropping the ball on this element of the story could legitimately kill the momentum of Janthir Wilds.

[Luthan.5236]

Yes. I agree. Creating those "humanized" versions of enemies also leaves devs/story writers with the problem that this takes up resources to creatse stuff (lore regarding society, history, etc.) for them - meaning less focus on our part (currently the Tyrian alliance) and the survival and stories here. Will all feel pretty dull if there is too much but none of it really fleshed out.

Titans need to be trutal. Trying to fully eradicate Tyrians spawning everywhere and slaughtering villages with us standing together - motivated to destroy them. Ending in us fully purging every single one of them. Then it will a great story.

But if it happens like "player char saving a titan baby" it will mean instant 0/10 regarding the plot. (Locked to 0.)

A grown up purge of a titan baby colony - to prevent them from turning dangerous enemies later ... would be great. Might confliced with the way they advertise the game though. (And age rating.) Better to not hope for too much - and focus on the gameplay parts instead.

Edited September 2 by Luthan.5236

[voltaicbore.8012]

4 hours ago, VoiceOfUnreason.5976 said:

I think you're in danger of going the same route with the Titans.

I fully agree with you, but I think it's too late already. I'm guessing that this kind of story direction gets decided way ahead of time, and the bulk of the work between releases (within the same mini-xpac) is just building gameplay elements on top of the narrative they decided on. I'm also guessing that the only real story changes we can expect is if they decide to just cut+rush story because they couldn't finish stuff in time.

So I think our only hope is that they had the sense not to make the Titans the next big Disney villain ahead of time.

[TeeracK.3601]

I just wish they had done the kryptis as hard core diablo style demons. Just make it so Petha is on our side but also mostly her own side ending up taking the power in the end, and we have a now uneasy peace. Something that has the vibe of when Garrosh in wow asked Sylvannas the difference between her and the Lich king when she started to raise undead and she smirked saying in a spooky tone "Isn't it obvious? I serve the horde..." something like that where Isgarren has to accept her peace just for now. Something more similar to how we left things off with Desmina where it feels like we solved a problem with a future problem.

They could do the redemption story with Marganites later on and it makes way more sense and be cooler for the setting. Allowing them to finally return to living in Tyria in the end.
 

Edited September 3 by TeeracK.3601

[Kunavi.2407]

Agreed, they done kittened up with the Kryptis. Peitha should've been an exception and that's it at most. You've said everything I'd say on the topic, OP... I'll just add that it also kinda made the ending of SOTO very unsatisfying, like some non canon secret ending where you befriend everyone with magical friendship powers, including the impossible- Or what should've been impossible to negotiate with. I still liked SOTO but this rubbed me the wrong way.

Decima killed my mood too, especially after Greer was so mystical and obscure(No pun intended), like some creature that can barely form thoughts and speak them in a way that we understand. And then Decima is like HNYEEEEEEEH! EEEEVIL! and then Ura goes PARLEY! and it felt bad... My Commander wanted to use the wand to begin with, ceded, and then is plot forced into PARLEY with a glorified Earth Elemental who caught some space disease. My only reaction can be "Meh"...

[maxwelgm.4315]

Thanks, you put in nicer words exactly how I was put off immediately after Decima popped up on screen. Titans are FORGED space alien creatures at that, 100% artificial. This is orcs-are-actually-people tier writing and Anet should know better to do some actual eldritch horrors after people consistently complained about Soo Won being a baby mama and Kryptis being humans but in the dreaaaam.

[Kalavier.1097]

58 minutes ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Thanks, you put in nicer words exactly how I was put off immediately after Decima popped up on screen. Titans are FORGED space alien creatures at that, 100% artificial. This is orcs-are-actually-people tier writing and Anet should know better to do some actual eldritch horrors after people consistently complained about Soo Won being a baby mama and Kryptis being humans but in the dreaaaam.

Unless JW changed the Titan Lore, Titans are both creations of the foundry of failed creations, and a mist species in conflict with the Mursaat as I recall.

[Narcemus.1348]

Am I misremembering that back in Nightfall you take a charr to a Titan and it speaks plain English to him about how the charr were never anything more than tools to them?

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/A_Flickering_Flame

[Weindrasi.3805]

I like aspects of the "demon-monsters are people too" theme, but I think they went too far with Kryptis. I think it's cool to be able to ally with and empathize with the Kryptis. But also, they are demonic beings from another dimension. Their perceptions of reality and morality SHOULD have been, in some ways, unrecognizable and unsettling. One minute, a kryptis could say or do something totally relatable, the next, say or do something totally alien. That would have been a good balance. 

As for the titans, I agree Decima is way too human. Greer's initial introduction was perfect. I think that should have been the standard for Decima too. Since Ura is higher tier then Greer/Decima, so it would make sense that she is able to communicate with us better/talk us into retreating. Buuuut even she should have maintained a level of "alien and unknowable"

 

[Weindrasi.3805]

6 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

Am I misremembering that back in Nightfall you take a charr to a Titan and it speaks plain English to him about how the charr were never anything more than tools to them?

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/A_Flickering_Flame

You could have some titans that are better at/more willing to, communicate on a mortal's level--that's fine. But it's important to also keep them feeling "alien". 

[Mistwraithe.3106]

Totally agreed with this.

A common and primitive trope is that the bad guy is evil doing evil things for no reason so you as the good guys kill them. I agree that this is poor writing, particularly when every villian is this way (and even more so the no reason part, the bad guys should always have some reason for what they are doing but it doesn't need to be a reason that would motivate most humans).

But Anet have gone too far the other way IMO where a lot of our opponents are not evil, just misunderstood. That's a good plot twist, it adds all sorts of other angles you can explore and I think it's fantastic in places (eg Joko is very fascinating I think, particularly the way many of his citizens genuinely appreciated what he did for them and wanted to be awakened). But when you do it so frequently it's no longer a plot twist and it's no longer very interesting.

At this point it would actually be more of an interesting plot twist if it turned out that the big bad (currently the titans) were straight out untrustworthy, don't care at all about mortal life and hence from our point of view are totally evil. Sure, it would also be good if there was a a reason why their actions make sense from their point of view but it can just be as simple as us being lesser beings/ants which are beneath their interest other than things to manipulate or squash while they work towards some cosmic goal. In that context any deals they make with us should be traps because they have no reason to keep their word or do anything other than what they want to achieve their goals.

[Narcemus.1348]

2 hours ago, Weindrasi.3805 said:

You could have some titans that are better at/more willing to, communicate on a mortal's level--that's fine. But it's important to also keep them feeling "alien". 

All I am pointing out is that aside from maybe some weird latin incantations, this is the only speech we have of the Titan's, so it should not be unexpected for them to speak at an understandable level. Heck, it is presumed that Goresval is a naturally formed titan as he is created from tormented souls, and he speaks in an understandable way, though obviously that last portion is presumption, and not confirmed.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

ArenaNet took the two most fascinating things about the titans - their otherworldly, unnatural odd-limbed form, and their ability to break down into smaller incarnations because they aren't just powerful individually but create powerful smaller selves on death forcing prioritization - and removed them completely from their GW2 iteration.

It's very disappointing. I get why they did this - a more natural looking rig would be usable again later so ideal resource management; they wanted to focus on a few important powerful individuals and that'd be harder to do if we're constantly killing them - but it's just thoroughly disappointing. Janthir Wilds doesn't even include any proper mid-tier Titans, it's just low tier and 3 high tier Titans, despite dialogue talking about "bigger titanspawn" and the potential to have at least mid-tier titans that spawn smaller titans present. Hell, they could have kept the "few important powerful individuals" as Armageddon Lords and thus still allowing high tier titans that break down on death to smaller selves.

So despite Titans being my #1 favorite group in GW1, from aesthetics to mechanics, GW2 went and destroyed all of it.

Sadly, I was left unsurprised by this revelation.

 

This said, while I haven't finished Janthir Wilds as it's hard to motivate myself to finish when Act 2 is FIVE ALMOST BACK TO BACK map exploration steps; seriously who's brilliant idea was it for Act 2 to be open world dialogue -> exploration -> open world dialogue -> heart -> open world dialogue -> heart -> good instance -> open world interactions -> dialogue instance -> open world events -> whatevercomesnextI'mnotthereyet ??? That is terrible, the first Act was so much better pacing, this was just bad, especially since there are moments, like using lightning rods on magic rocks, that come out of nowhere, no dialogue explaining it just "go do this thing too now" in the objectives. Digression aside, I haven't finished JW yet, so I haven't met Uwu or Uru or w/e the name is. Decima's dialogue, however, didn't feel overly humanized.

The only humanizing element of Decima's behavior was calling Greer her brother which seems... odd, but not exactly opposed to GW1 lore. She could easily mean brother from the same forge, like how sylvari all call each other brother / sister (despite also making sweet sweet eros to). The voice choice however... not the best. The words are fine, but the voice was almost Factions level decision making there. I think I might've actually preferred Danika from Factions voicing Decima, in fact.

20 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Thanks, you put in nicer words exactly how I was put off immediately after Decima popped up on screen. Titans are FORGED space alien creatures at that, 100% artificial. This is orcs-are-actually-people tier writing and Anet should know better to do some actual eldritch horrors after people consistently complained about Soo Won being a baby mama and Kryptis being humans but in the dreaaaam.

Nothing actually says the Titans are "100% artificial". While, yes, the specific titans of GW1 were made by The Fury, a servant of Dhuum, using tormented souls in a undefined ritual, nothing says they couldn't form naturally. Gorseval, as Narcemus points out, very much appears like what seems to be a naturally formed titan. And In GW1, there are talks about how titans were ancient enemies of the mursaat and Seers, as old as the Forgotten themselves, but largely unchanged since then. These times predate the Six Gods - and thus the Fury and Dhuum - as they were on Tyria.

So logically speaking, the Foundry of Failed Creations - which was NOT the sole source of Titans, just where the Fury settled to twist the landscape into a place to work - was only a place that refined the natural Titan creation process.

[Narcemus.1348]

You might not be completely out of luck when it comes to the splitting thing, I feel like that might be a little shock that occurs maybe in the second or third release. As to the body shape, I had thought that it felt like a good general shape for the large ones. The littles, I feel, can be whatever they want to be seeing as in GW1 they were imps and elementals alongside a bunch of other shapes.

[RagiNagi.1802]

To OP's point, nearly every race is humanized. Putting nearly in brackets, because there are definetly proper unique races like Choyas or Skritt that still feel authentic.

Kodan apparently live the same exact lives as humans. They have farms, they fish, and prepare dried fish for winter. And they talk soo much.

I am guessing that most players need to associate with the races and characters both good, evil and neutral. I remember reading somwehere that Transformers movies didn't do so well because the average viewer couldn't identify as a Robot from space. And Hasbro needed to make them more human in their chatter, appearance and behaviours. pretty lame, but they need to sell copies.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

You might not be completely out of luck when it comes to the splitting thing, I feel like that might be a little shock that occurs maybe in the second or third release. As to the body shape, I had thought that it felt like a good general shape for the large ones. The littles, I feel, can be whatever they want to be seeing as in GW1 they were imps and elementals alongside a bunch of other shapes.

The little ones reusing centaurs, ogres, and, I believe gorrila? rigging while looking rocky is fine. I like their designs.

It's the appearance of Greer and Decima that I dislike - specifically that fourth leg, because it makes them feel all the more natural. Like it isn't some weird otherworldly creature. And as I said, that was one of the two biggest elements of the titans.

Even if Greer and Decima do break down when we finally kill them, it isn't nearly as impactful because the entire army is just low tier enemies. No mid tier or high tier titans that would break down. So unless Updates 1/2 introduce weaker high tiered titans out of the proverbial nowhere, it still won't feel the same. And the thing is, dialogue even for a historical context, is treating it as if a singular normal high tier titan is a massive threat. And yeah they were dangerous, but their danger wasn't in the individual so much as in the massive army of them on top of. But the constant elevation of expectations over "a single titan" means A) the Prophecies PC is suddenly elevated to god above godhood status in strength because apparently a dragon champion who has slain Elder Dragons that the Six feared is having trouble with these when the Prophecies PCs slew hundreds of them in rapid procession, and B) introducing more high tiered titans later will just demerit all the buildup of Greer and Decima in this initial release.

Overall I've been finding Janthir Wilds a major disappointment. There's constant lore contradictions or retcons in the worldbuilding; from an obvious setup for many "good natured murder satans" still alive out there despite the LWS3 Eye of Janthir situation, to lowland kodans being well known to humans and kodans, but yet their history debunking IBS dialogues about norn being the lost kodan tribe as if it were a fact to the kodans, to even the existence of Bloodstone-killed White Mantle ghosts with guns when said guns didn't exist (just when did that Bloodstone explode anyways - another disappointing thing, albeit minor, since it's now written out of the picture entirely - because for those WM ghosts to be proper canon they'd need to be Caudecus' men which would mean the explosion happened post-LWS3, but it seems like it's been exploded for quite some time?).

And that's not even going on about how people are treating as if the titans first came to be around GW1, despite all the GW1 lore clearly and explicitly stating that the titans were in Tyria during the mursaat-seer war era, and are as old as the Forgotten. Waiting Sorrows was alive when the titans were first (to players' knowledge) in Tyria, yet she says the "original titan rising" was 250 years ago...

Base SotO was very good with its new lore worldbuilding and consistency where the only issues I saw were in Zojja's Journal achievement in Skywatch. But Janthir Wilds is FILLED with those kinds of minor inconsistencies all over the place. Just as Gyala Delves was. Individually minor, but they build up and up and up the more there are.

Edited September 6 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Pax.3548]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

ArenaNet took the two most fascinating things about the titans - their otherworldly, unnatural odd-limbed form, and their ability to break down into smaller incarnations because they aren't just powerful individually but create powerful smaller selves on death forcing prioritization - and removed them completely from their GW2 iteration.

I loved titans from gw1 (probably my fav. enemy NPC), but this wasn't my reaction, whats the issue? the titans here are very similar to the ones in gw1 (hell, Greer is basically a gw1 rotting  titan), but much bigger which may explain the extra leg. There is also a collection archievement that theorizes why is that, and could also explain why these titans are spawning minions unlike the ancient titanspawn which usually were created when titans died. Also, remember that most, if not ALL gw1 titan bosses didn't spawn nothing when killed, only regular titans did that.

 

[Pax.3548]

36 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The little ones reusing centaurs, ogres, and, I believe gorrila? rigging while looking rocky is fine. I like their designs.

You say it like gw1 titanspawn didn't reuse other NCP models, at this point I think its just the nostalgia talking here

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

28 minutes ago, Pax.3548 said:

I loved titans from gw1 (probably my fav. enemy NPC), but this wasn't my reaction, whats the issue? the titans here are very similar to the ones in gw1 (hell, Greer is basically a gw1 rotting  titan), but much bigger which may explain the extra leg. There is also a collection archievement that theorizes why is that, and could also explain why these titans are spawning minions unlike the ancient titanspawn which usually were created when titans died. Also, remember that most, if not ALL gw1 titan bosses didn't spawn nothing when killed, only regular titans did that.

The extra limb might be explained with lore, but that doesn't exempt it from the fact it feels more natural and less otherworldly which is my issue with the fourth leg. The current titan looks like it can be reused readily for other creatures that naturally exist in Tyria, while the GW1 titan felt like it was some otherworldly, alien thing, simply because of its odd number of limbs and unusual way of walking due to said number of limbs.

And they're pretty close to the same size scaling tbh.

And yes, I recognize Greer is a rotting titan. I noticed that immediately from the promotions. That doesn't change the fact that I feel his visuals are less otherworldly - not a bad design, just too different from GW1 titans IMO. And I know I'm not the only person with this obviously subjective opinion.

25 minutes ago, Pax.3548 said:

You say it like gw1 titanspawn didn't reuse other NCP models, at this point I think its just the nostalgia talking here

No? I was pointing out the reuse because of the prior issue of "not feeling otherworldly due to looks and limb count" and was outright responding to someone pointing out that gw1 smaller titans were just imps, elementals, and other reskins. Basically I was acknowledging that the small titans - the low tier titans - are very similar in mechanics and overall aesthetic concept. You clearly weren't understanding what I was saying - whether it was due to my wording or your reading.

Edited September 6 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, RagiNagi.1802 said:

To OP's point, nearly every race is humanized. Putting nearly in brackets, because there are definetly proper unique races like Choyas or Skritt that still feel authentic.

Kodan apparently live the same exact lives as humans. They have farms, they fish, and prepare dried fish for winter. And they talk soo much.

 

I mean, any race with consistent settlements will literally have all of these things. Farms, food storage, food gathering. Even the Skritt do that. This isn't a "Human" thing, it's a civilization thing. A civilization must be able to feed it's population and protect them.

[RagiNagi.1802]

32 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I mean, any race with consistent settlements will literally have all of these things. Farms, food storage, food gathering. Even the Skritt do that. This isn't a "Human" thing, it's a civilization thing. A civilization must be able to feed it's population and protect them.

True, and sustinance is one aspect of civilization. They can have different social structures and different resources they consume. I mean... why are bears sleeping in beds..

Margonites, Mursaat, Tormented, Exalted all were kind of tangent races when it came to social, economic, political structures. We don't know how they slept, what they ate and what were their jobs in time of peace. And that is fine. Player doesn't need to know every single thing of a race by following the main story. Thats my opinion at least.

[Pax.3548]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And yes, I recognize Greer is a rotting titan. I noticed that immediately from the promotions. That doesn't change the fact that I feel his visuals are less otherworldly - not a bad design, just too different from GW1 titans IMO. And I know I'm not the only person with this obviously subjective opinion.

I don't know, I believe Greer looks better than the Rotting Titans 😆, but I think I see your point. These modern titans looks pretty epic, but something about them doesn't inspire the same awe/fear their gw1 titans did. Maybe its because back then we knew gw1 titans could wipe us easily if not careful, or maybe its that amber core they now posses

Anyway, as I go back to play gw1 sometimes I guess I'm not nostalgic enough to be too bothered with the differences, and while the amber core and the fourth leg did bother me a little at the beggining, the collection I mentioned let me know that Anet and the ncps in the game recognised the differences in these modern titans, they weren't made without consideration of their previous looks. I for one, believe the extra leg (and also the ability to create so many spawns) may be some kind of mutation produced by their magic consumption, though I don't know where those amber cores come from. I like the idea these titans belongs to the same group freed by the undead lich, but the amber core (or even the extra leg) may also mean these are recently created titans, made through a different proccess in the foundry of failed creations, by someone or something that came after The Fury's death

[Slowpokeking.8720]

I remember Titans do have intelligence.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

44 minutes ago, Pax.3548 said:

I don't know, I believe Greer looks better than the Rotting Titans 😆, but I think I see your point. These modern titans looks pretty epic, but something about them doesn't inspire the same awe/fear their gw1 titans did. Maybe its because back then we knew gw1 titans could wipe us easily if not careful, or maybe its that amber core they now posses

Yes, exactly. They look good, don't get me wrong. But they don't give the same feeling as in GW1. They don't feel truly otherworldly.

Greer's introduction was great. Other than the ridiculous "Strangers" nickname that I'd argue makes zero sense and feels like something you'd give to an unknown humanoid or other urban legend kind of creature ala Slenderman and not an otherworldly eldritch monstrosity (no matter the setting or niavety of the characters, nobody would decide to nickname Chthulu or similar beings as "Strangers"). To me, The Bog Witch is a "stranger among lands" while the titanspawn are well beyond that. But back to point: Greer's introduction was great, and so was the fight against him. Except for the "powerful and large minion" not being a mid-tier titan, and Greer looking a bit too Tyrian native. The Branded Riftstalker looks far more unnatural than Greer does, and it's a creature of (formerly) flesh and blood.

44 minutes ago, Pax.3548 said:

Anyway, as I go back to play gw1 sometimes I guess I'm not nostalgic enough to be too bothered with the differences, and while the amber core and the fourth leg did bother me a little at the beggining, the collection I mentioned let me know that Anet and the ncps in the game recognised the differences in these modern titans, they weren't made without consideration of their previous looks. I for one, believe the extra leg (and also the ability to create so many spawns) may be some kind of mutation produced by their magic consumption, though I don't know where those amber cores come from. I like the idea these titans belongs to the same group freed by the undead lich, but the amber core (or even the extra leg) may also mean these are recently created titans, made through a different proccess in the foundry of failed creations, by someone or something that came after The Fury's death

The amber core actually doesn't bother me all that much as it makes sense for any creature to have vital organs of some design. Nothing is truly perfect, after all.

And yeah, the lore is definitely pointing out the extra leg and titanspawn as progeny is an evolution from over the past 250 years. And the finale of JW (just finished it) is giving not-so-subtle hints that Mabon may be related to this evolution and/or Ura in general. As to these titans being of the same group freed by Khilbron - doesn't the story indicate that is not the case?

[Pax.3548]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And yeah, the lore is definitely pointing out the extra leg and titanspawn as progeny is an evolution from over the past 250 years. And the finale of JW (just finished it) is giving not-so-subtle hints that Mabon may be related to this evolution and/or Ura in general. As to these titans being of the same group freed by Khilbron - doesn't the story indicate that is not the case?

I don't think I saw anything confirming if these titans aren't from the group freed by Khilbron. So far there are bits that gives us some idea what happened:

1.- Janthir isle was populated by humans outcasts, (similar to the Tarnished Haven in gw1).

2.- At some point (likely after being rescued by the mursaat and before returning to Kryta), Saul D'Alessio spent some time on the isles, leaving some of his followers there when he left.

3.- The town's fate was tragic, as the mursaat sacrificed practically everyone there, even their white mantle followers.

4.- At this point we don't know what happened, but NPC conversations seems to indicate the mursaat here were wiped out by the titans (But it isn't outright confirmed, something else may have happened).

This last point makes me want to believe Greer and Decima belong to the titans sent by Khilbron to destroy the mursaat settled on janthir isle and their golden city (forgot the name), and Mabon, who at the time was watching his fellow mursaat, may have sealed the titans inside the golden city to stop them from causing trouble like the other freed titans did back in gw1 after the lich's defeat. But then after Mabon's death, the seal broke and since then these titans, no longer trapped, began to cause trouble.

This theory could explain what happened to the mursaat on Janthir as well has what happened to the titans sent to kill them, but it fails however, if these modern titans are newcomers to Tyria.

Edited September 6 by Pax.3548