Wintersday Balance Update: Feedback Thread

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Arlette.9684 said:Sooo all the people that were crying about Mirage one shotting them last month, refocused their cries to condi now. Well newsflash, guess what will happen when they nerf it?Would you be happier getting 1 shotted instead?Ask yourselves this before you keep pushing this agenda.

Since the Expansion hit, i have encountered exactly....ZERO Power Mirage players in WvW. Every. Single. One has been Condi. Out of ALL the Mesmer/chrono/Mirage i have encountered since the expansion. I have MAYBE faced 2 power Mesmers. Both Chrono.

Me personally. I would prefer balance. Risk Vs Reward. Condi at the moment is just Reward. Especially as Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage being by FAR the most broken of the condi specs 1 Vs 1 and in small fights. Burst damage dying in 1 second is just as bad. Winning should be about SKILL. Not pressing as many buttons as you can in as short a time as possible. The game has FAR too many skills that are too good in too many situations. They are just press on cool down. Rather than use when it best suits being used.

More skills need the Ride The Lightening treatment. If used in one way then you get REWARDED. If you use it in another way you get PUNISHED. In this instance, if you use it to attack you get rewarded (shorter cool down) if you use it to run you get punished (longer cool down) at the moment too many builds are about pressing as many buttons as possible as quickly as you can.

[Arlette.9684]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Arlette.9684 said:Sooo all the people that were crying about Mirage one shotting them last month, refocused their cries to condi now. Well newsflash, guess what will happen when they nerf it?Would you be happier getting 1 shotted instead?Ask yourselves this before you keep pushing this agenda.

Since the Expansion hit, i have encountered exactly....ZERO Power Mirage players in WvW. Every. Single. One has been Condi. Out of ALL the Mesmer/chrono/Mirage i have encountered since the expansion. I have MAYBE faced 2 power Mesmers. Both Chrono.

Me personally. I would prefer balance. Risk Vs Reward. Condi at the moment is just Reward. Especially as Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage being by FAR the most broken of the condi specs 1 Vs 1 and in small fights. Burst damage dying in 1 second is just as bad. Winning should be about SKILL. Not pressing as many buttons as you can in as short a time as possible. The game has FAR too many skills that are too good in too many situations. They are just press on cool down. Rather than use when it best suits being used.

More skills need the Ride The Lightening treatment. If used in one way then you get REWARDED. If you use it in another way you get PUNISHED. In this instance, if you use it to attack you get rewarded (shorter cool down) if you use it to run you get punished (longer cool down) at the moment too many builds are about pressing as many buttons as possible as quickly as you can.

I agree for the most part. Except with the power Mirage part. Are you playing on EU?

Edit: The game is suffering from skill over saturation, to the point where you rarely get more than a handful of auto attacks in.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Arlette.9684 said:I agree for the most part. Except with the power Mirage part. Are you playing on EU?

Edit: The game is suffering from skill over saturation, to the point where you rarely get more than a handful of auto attacks in.

what part about Mirage do you not agree with? Im on Deso (EU) and i have encountered ZERO power mirages. At. All. Every one of them have been Condi, like most of the Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage i have seen. Condi, Condi, Condi.

Yeah, a few too many skills are on too short of a cool down that means they are just press off cool down and it means nothing if you miss as they will be off cool down quickly enough that missing means very little these days

[Arlette.9684]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Arlette.9684 said:I agree for the most part. Except with the power Mirage part. Are you playing on EU?

Edit: The game is suffering from skill over saturation, to the point where you rarely get more than a handful of auto attacks in.

what part about Mirage do you not agree with? Im on Deso (EU) and i have encountered ZERO power mirages. At. All. Every one of them have been Condi, like most of the Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage i have seen. Condi, Condi, Condi.

Yeah, a few too many skills are on too short of a cool down that means they are just press off cool down and it means nothing if you miss as they will be off cool down quickly enough that missing means very little these days

Apologies, I’m on my first coffee. What I meant is that on NA power Mirage is a common occurrence, which led me to stipulate you’re playing on EU as the metas for the 2 have some sharp contrasts.

Edit: My comment stil rings true though, as soon as condi Mirage gets nerfed, and it will (likely to the ground) all of the non bandwagon Mirages are gonna reroll power and you’ll see first hand what people were complaining about on the forum here last month.Is it a one trick pony? Absolutely!Are good players able to counter it effectively? Sure!But let’s face it, the game is full of players that would rather cry “omgonozmesmeroneshotmeOPAFhelpbbqwentonfire” than to actually roll the build and learn how to play it and study its weaknesses.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Arlette.9684 said:Apologies, I’m on my first coffee. What I meant is that on NA power Mirage is a common occurrence, which led me to stipulate you’re playing on EU as the metas for the 2 have some sharp contrasts.

You talking as roaming? Yeah, not seen a single Power Mirage . Yep. Desolation. EU.

[Arlette.9684]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Arlette.9684 said:Apologies, I’m on my first coffee. What I meant is that on NA power Mirage is a common occurrence, which led me to stipulate you’re playing on EU as the metas for the 2 have some sharp contrasts.

You talking as roaming? Yeah, not seen a single Power Mirage . Yep. Desolation. EU.

In the case of Mirage and Thief, it will always be roaming as both are inherently weak in large scale due to design limitations.

I edited my previous comment for fluidity.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Arlette.9684 said:In the case of Mirage and Thief, it will always be roaming as both are inherently weak in large scale due to design limitations.

Thief maybe. Mirage? Nah. Not at all. They still have some great skills for group and Zerg fights such as Feedback, staff Chaos storm and such. Zerg fights are about tagging for the most part. Mesmer/Mirage can do that very well. Especially as ranged classes. The good old days of downing yourself from 100% health to downed through Retal damage from Feedback, the memories <3 Lol

[Arlette.9684]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Arlette.9684 said:In the case of Mirage and Thief, it will always be roaming as both are inherently weak in large scale due to design limitations.

Thief maybe. Mirage? Nah. Not at all. They still have some great skills for group and Zerg fights such as Feedback, staff Chaos storm and such. Zerg fights are about tagging for the most part. Mesmer/Mirage can do that very well. Especially as ranged classes. The good old days of downing yourself from 100% health to downed through Retal damage from Feedback, the memories <3 Lol

For Large scale Chrono is far superior. Mirage is a purely selfish spec that brings nothing to the table in terms of group support. The skills you mentioned are not Mirage exclussive and are better suited for Chrono as that class adds alacrity and quickness to the group... oh yes and AEGIS now :smile:

Edit: I chuckled at the tagging part. Mesmer is infamous for having very low cleave(tagging) potential, aside from a few cooldowns and getting lucky on your staff bounces (excluding illusions since those won’t last 0.5 secs in a zerg) you only have axe 2 for cleave and that is far from ranged, very far.

I’m starting to think I just spent this time having a conversation with you on a subject you know nothing about. Please don’t make it so.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Arlette.9684 said:For Large scale Chrono is far superior. Mirage is a purely selfish spec that brings nothing to the table in terms of group support. The skills you mentioned are not Mirage exclussive and are better suited for Chrono as that class adds alacrity and quickness to the group... oh yes and AEGIS now :smile:

Personally, i would disagree. Yes Chrono comes with more AoE use skills but Feedback is still by far the best. No target limit, VERY useful for Zerg fights. Chrono has a few decent skills for zerg fights but with the rampant Boon corruption and removal. Most of them would be kinda wasted. Alacrity, can be given by other classes as well. So that isnt that huge of a deal. Boons = corrupt when it comes to zerg fights.

My point was, they CAN be used in Zergs. They are built solely as a solo spec. Thief, is. Kinda. Though Deadeye gives them the sniper option with 1,500 range damage.

[Arlette.9684]

Read above.

Also what part of Not Mirage Exclussive was unclear when it comes to feedback? I can roll core PU build and still run feedback while sitting in stealth on the backline. That doesn’t make Mirage viable, it makes Mesmer have 1 cooldown that is usefull in zerg fights and 1 portal that is usefull if the zerg doesn’t perform a thorough sweep of the keep after they take it.Again this is Mesmer ability not Mirage!

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"Arlette.9684" said:Edit: I chuckled at the tagging part. Mesmer is infamous for having very low cleave(tagging) potential, aside from a few cooldowns and getting lucky on your staff bounces (excluding illusions since those won’t last 0.5 secs in a zerg) you only have axe 2 for cleave and that is far from ranged, very far.

I’m starting to think I just spent this time having a conversation with you on a subject you know nothing about. Please don’t make it so.

Well, given that i have a Mesmer. Played for god knows how long. Second made character during pre-launch. I myself have had zero problem being in zergs and tagging people. Is it as good as some classes? No. But is it good enough to still get the "lootz" if that is your aim? Yes. I'm more of help the zerg than tag all the foes! and i still manage to get loads of tagged kills in groups. I guess it depends on the build you play and how you play it but Mesmer isnt as weak as you think when it comes to zergging.

[Arlette.9684]

Merry Christmas to you, sir. It is obvious we won’t meet eye to eye on the matter.

Cheers!

[Nimon.7840]

@Karl McLain.5604 said:The primary design for confusion is 'burst'; it's expected to deliver a lot of stacks at once for low duration, punishing skill usage for a short while and then falling off quickly. Due to this difference in nature, we chose to leave it alone in this patch.

Short duration would be 2-3 seconds. But not 14 seconds.

Way tooo overtuned.

Same goes for power mirage/mesmer, but i guess that was no part of the patch.

So why leave confusion as it is? There is litterally NO real reason.

So we need to wait out 10 seconds in a fight, before we fight back?

Everyone complaining bout necro, but you could cleanse and heal yourself. While playing against mirage feels like: wanna press a skill? Oh whoops you are dead.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Nimon.7840 said:Everyone complaining bout necro, but you could cleanse and heal yourself. While playing against mirage feels like: wanna press a skill? Oh whoops you are dead.

Also ignoring the fact that Condi Necro has counters and weaknesses, cant run, cant chase. I am still trying to figure out what weakness Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage has that make them a viable counter. Not that it really helps if you're any other class though...

[Akeno.4962]

From a PVE perspective:I'd love to see more variety in terms of meta support builds. I'd like you guys to consider that druid didn't need a compensation for losing GotL. Without the might application, it'd be still the preferred healer because of the pure strength of spirits, way too much for such a PASSIVE gameplay (banners also suffer from the same problem).

Meanwhile, renegades and tempest's can't compete in terms of bare utility. Tempests need to leave water to push or immobilize efficiently, meaning healing until CD is up is almost non-existent. An that's talking about staff, the preferred weapon in any meta build in pve. Is not like a bit of build variety would hurt the game, right?

But at least they have the possibility. The change to Energy Expulsion means that using it to push is a "bye bye" to all your remaining energy. If you want to immobilize you need a trait, diminishing your outgoing healing. Apart from that and some might application (since chronos are a must until you change something, most alacrity provided is in excess) Ventari/Kalla doesn't have any utility appreciated in raid, since for Protective solace to be useful in comparison to druid's Sublime conversion would need an entire encounter design around its duration and mobility.

And then, let's talk chronos. The change to inspiring distortion was much needed to provide any other option of a quickness/alacrity provider (aka firebrand+renegade). But for that comp to work, support renegades need to be in a better place than they are right now. Renegade, has problems compared to druid, but also compared to chrono. Renegade must spam Natural harmony while in Ventari to achieve chrono-like alacrity. It feels wrong to spam a skill you should be using to heal your group in a dire situation to get alacrity. My question is generation why all alacrity generation hasn't been moved to Orders from above or to Kalla.

On other topic, Scrapper needs a rework. It's been forgotten for so long, it's no longer is effective in pvp. My obviously biased opinion would be to turn it into a tank that deals good dps BECAUSE it's tanking. That would create variety in the tanking department, too.

[FaboBabo.3581]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"FaboBabo.3581" said:Anyone who Thinks mirages or Mesmers in general are "unhitable" , "perma stealthed" or something like this is bad.

Learn ALL classes.

Condi burst ? If you get hit by 7 abilitys you will Sure die no matter if power or condi.

99% of the Playerbase will facetank "axe 2", second "axe 2" , "jaunt" , "axe 3" , "axe ambush" , "f2"

Then they will say ; MIRAGE CONDI BURST WITH ONE SKILK 30 STACK CONFU SO BROKEN"

GET GUD KIDZ

Yeah i played Mesmer. I stopped because it got so boring. This is the problem with a few too many players that KNOW they are reliant on build to do anything, scared that WHEN it finally gets nerfed, and it WILL that they will lose the little bit they had that did all the work for them to kill someone. Condi Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage are the EASIEST condi builds to play. Bar none.

You might say "oh but Scourge" - that would be the same Scourge that is easily locked down, wrecked by range fire and nothing they can do about it. What exactly is Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage weakness? They have none. Fight going badly (it shouldnt, youre condi after all...) then you can teleport, leap and stealth away. You punish people through poorly designed conditions if they move, if they dont move. If they attack, if they dont attack. Hell they get punished for REMOVING said conditions but again get punished MORE by the fact they will be reapplied in big stacks in a few seconds anyway.

You can have as many removals as you like. Its NEVER enough for the sheer constant and never ending application and THAT is why people see the Condi Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage as being utterly broken. Because it is. Sorry if that shatters (lol) your idea that you were winning because you were "GUD" its not that at all.

Well im saying those things because i played as mesmer AND against other good Mesmers.

Some people have to admit that they are bad.

This is not ment to be offensive, but 99% of gw2 players are bad.Compare legend rank gw2 and max rank of any other competetive game.

Legend rank gw2 is laughable. 1000 mistakes in one game from one player.

I saw guys in legend rank REFUSING to take condi clear in SCOURGE META.

As they died to Scourge , they said Scourge op.

?????

This is legend ???

"oi oi look at me , me no need condi clear in condi meta"

• dies to condi"Oi oi condi is op, i'm very skill"

[schloumou.3982]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

Well im saying those things because i played as mesmer AND against other good Mesmers.

Some people have to admit that they are bad.

Yeah....bad at making a point. Balance means you should be able to beat them on another profession.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

Well im saying those things because i played as mesmer AND against other good Mesmers.

Some people have to admit that they are bad.

You shouldn't have to seriously out play someone, press a million more buttons JUST to counter their constant and never ending condition application in order to win. I am STILL waiting to ear about these specs and builds that CAN counter Condi Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage and by counter - i dont mean get condi bombed, remove the first bomb and run away. I mean counter as in can actually kill them.

The BIGGEST problem is that MANY players rely on VERY bad balance and mindlessly pressing everything they have in order to win because the bad balance means that everything they do is mindless never ending condition application in order to win, rather than admitting it wasn't skill that won them the fight, It was their build and dreadfully bad balance that has allowed such builds to stay too strong for too long. Condition builds have been insanely unbalanced for a VERY long time and its about time Anet did something about them, but typical Anet fashion...

...They nerf condition builds that werent that strong to begin with (Ele, Base Engi, Revenant) slightly fix Necro (could do with a few more tweaks) but totally ignore the most broken of 1 Vs 1 (Yes the game isnt balanced around 1 Vs 1, but its MUCH worse when it comes to group fights and MULTIPLE condi spamming builds...) builds - Mesmer/Chrono/mirage. No one can say the balance update made sense when they contradict themselves with their own balance changes....

[FaboBabo.3581]

@schloumou.3982 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

Well im saying those things because i played as mesmer AND against other good Mesmers.

Some people have to admit that they are bad.

Yeah....bad at making a point. Balance means you should be able to beat them on another profession.

And thats exactly what i meant. I can kill SB as a Mirage, and i can kill Mirage as a SB. Now Problem is following ; skill lvl of others.

Am i good?Were the others bad?Am i bad and the others were even worse?

If you loose to someone ask yourself the same question.

The best Thing you can do is to reroll to the class you loose to, to learn it.

Learn it's weaknesses and stranges. Maybe you will realize that its actually harder to play certain class then you thaught.

[TheBravery.9615]

You guys are crazy. 9 pages of feedback? TLDR

Developers aren't going to read this.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:And thats exactly what i meant. I can kill SB as a Mirage, and i can kill Mirage as a SB. Now Problem is following ; skill lvl of others.

Okay. Now that you can kill them as another VERY strong spec. Now play against a Mirage as something OTHER than a Spellbreaker. Then let me know. Also, was it a fabled Power Mirage? I have STILL yet to see one in WvW. Every. Single. One. Has been Condi that i have encountered...

[Klypto.1703]

@Exalted Quality.8534 said:Clearly, you don’t know/care how terrible revenant is in pvp/wvw and you keep nerfing it in pve. It’s unbeleivable that you don’t realize/care how useless shortbow is and how clunky the renegade profession is. Nerfing condis globally does not make it any easier for revs to deal with condis.

No doubt yeah I was really excited mostly for renegade to come out just for it to be something not usable outside of pve.

Anyways here is to hoping they do something to make them playable again.

[Lazze.9870]

Well, as for ranger...

The new farsighted trait needs to have the projectile requirement removed. This is essentially a second longbow trait instead of an all-around damage trait. Marksmanship in general should have open strike refresh on all the GMs, not just Remorseless (refresh from stealth on read the wind as an example).

Sword needed more than just damage on the third auto, it needs a cleave on the second auto aswell. The overall damage should be comparable to something like thief's sword auto. A slightly faster activation time on Hornet's Sting would be nice (should be the same as Debilitating Arc on the daredevil staff).

Greatsword buffs were great, but Hilt Bash still stops all momentum when chasing a moving target. A change to that would have been worth more than a damage increase.

Other suggestions to improve power ranger would be to make Signet of the Wild grant power instead of ferocity on its passive, or up the numbers of ferocity you get (reasoning being the same as to why you buffed Assassin's Presence on revenant), and a damage modifier while under the effect of quickness on Essence of Speed which is a pretty underwhelming trait at the moment.

As for PvP in general, the ranger didn't need any nerfs to its conditions, condi ranger is hardly a thing in that game mode. A split to keep pve condi ranger in line would have been better.

[Lazze.9870]

@Akeno.4962 said:From a PVE perspective:I'd love to see more variety in terms of meta support builds. I'd like you guys to consider that druid didn't need a compensation for losing GotL. Without the might application, it'd be still the preferred healer because of the pure strength of spirits, way too much for such a PASSIVE gameplay (banners also suffer from the same problem).

It wouldn't be a prefered healer, spirits are a core ranger mechanic, and can be included in any ranger build. The second they change the druid specialization to only bring heals, you might aswell bring something that heals more and let soulbeasts or any other future ranger spec bring frost and/or sun spirit. The only benefit of spirits on a druid is that they can (and should for increased boon duration and more boons) fit Nature Magic into their builds.

Giving more alacrity to revs is a better way to create more variety in support builds. People still run two chronos.

[Akeno.4962]

@Lazze.9870 said:

It wouldn't be a prefered healer, spirits are a core ranger mechanic, and can be included in any ranger build. The second they change the druid specialization to only bring heals, you might aswell bring something that heals more and let soulbeasts or any other future ranger spec bring frost and/or sun spirit. The only benefit of spirits on a druid is that they can (and should for increased boon duration and more boons) fit Nature Magic into their builds.

Giving more alacrity to revs is a better way to create more variety in support builds. People still run two chronos.

By the way dps builds seem to work in this game (the most personal dps the better, chrono and druid will handle anything else apart from maybe some tough breakbars), the possibility of a soulbeast bringing spirits is considered inefficient, and therefore discarded. Because what really matters is not what's viable, is what pugs ask for.

I'm not saying that druids need to be 'only healers'. I just think they have to much built-in utility, cc and boons and they lose almost nothing to bring it. Revenants and tempest's are nothing similar, because they stop healing to bring something else, and even then they have much less to offer.

A balanced situation would be that each is preferred in a specific encounter, and since raw healing isn't something to call back home, something must be done in the other departments.