Wintersday Balance Update: Feedback Thread

[Ghos.1326]

@Akeno.4962 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

It wouldn't be a prefered healer, spirits are a core ranger mechanic, and can be included in any ranger build. The second they change the druid specialization to only bring heals, you might aswell bring something that heals more and let soulbeasts or any other future ranger spec bring frost and/or sun spirit. The only benefit of spirits on a druid is that they can (and should for increased boon duration and more boons) fit Nature Magic into their builds.

Giving more alacrity to revs is a better way to create more variety in support builds. People still run two chronos.

By the way dps builds seem to work in this game (the most personal dps the better, chrono and druid will handle anything else apart from maybe some tough breakbars), the possibility of a soulbeast bringing spirits is considered inefficient, and therefore discarded. Because what really matters is not what's viable, is what pugs ask for.

I'm not saying that druids need to be 'only healers'. I just think they have to much built-in utility, cc and boons and they lose almost nothing to bring it. Revenants and tempest's are nothing similar, because they stop healing to bring something else, and even then they have much less to offer.

A balanced situation would be that each is preferred in a specific encounter, and since raw healing isn't something to call back home, something must be done in the other departments.

I agree with Akeno. If the druid wants to go the pure heal spec, then yes, by all means, make those heals good, real good. If they go a hybrid, tone down the heals, have the heals scale based off healing power, on some skills by a lot. When you can 1v1/kill/pressure off point/heal to full health in 2 skills/stealth/cc upon cc upon cc/clear condis basically always, all the time, it's a little much, and you know then you have something potentially broken on your hands that you need to fix. on top of all that, their pets do so much damage.

[Meetshield.1756]

I believe i'm a bit late to comment on this balance patch. However the net result at the end of the day is that Conditions are worse than they were before the change, in regards to WvW which I believe WvW and PvP were the target for this change. The reason for these now being worse than before is due to the bug with Abrasive Grit which was introduced. It now only clears condies if no barrier exists on the player. Additional applications of barrier do not clear condies. Thus Necros create long lasting condies but cannot clear condies. The only class suitable to combat the condi cancer in WvW is guardian Tome of Resolve with Firebrand Spec. Very important that you resolve this bug before you try to balance anything else. However Mirage probably needs a good kick in the teeth overall due to it being the lowest skill highest reward class currently available to players, and providing no benefit in a team format it is fully selfish and ruins the game for any other player subject to its trolling fury.

Oh and I'm perfectly fine with you removing all condie application from Scourge shades or whatever else you feel you need to do to convince these guys its a support class. If played as support its perfectly balanced. If played with the Condi DPS build its definately part of the problem, increasing the duration but lowering the stacks has shifted the WvW meta towards more Scourges is better. Because eventually enough shades will overpower even guardian condi clear. I'm not sure however that it would be so bad if we had abrasive grit to combat it. So fixing that is priority.

[Zero.3871]

@Karl McLain.5604 said:The primary design for confusion is 'burst'; it's expected to deliver a lot of stacks at once for low duration, punishing skill usage for a short while and then falling off quickly. Due to this difference in nature, we chose to leave it alone in this patch.

is that a joke? scepter skill 3 on mesm give you 6 stacks confusion for 14 seconds!!!! if you play 100% condi duration. 14 seconds is short for you??????????????? most confu skills have 4 sec basic duration that can get increased 8 seconds (8 seconds are NOT short). scourge torment on shade skills is short (with 2 seconds base duration, max 4 seconds at 100 % duration increased).

and torch 4 of mesmer still does 3 stacks burning (4 if skilled), why didnt you reduce that too? like on all other classes... you can get insta 9 stacks of burning from torch of mesm + 10+ stacks of confu fpor 10+ seconds...

[Miko.4158]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"Zsoak.5409" said:Sorry I've read this statement from you like 4 times in 4 different posts and now I just couldn't resist to correct it.I don't know where are you taking these numbers from, but no, no class could run full zerk gear and have 20k health and 3k+ armor.Warrior in full zerk has around 19k health and base 2.3k armor. If you account the passive toughness (only when above 75% health) from Defense line, then it's 2.5k armor.

I you are like the rest of the Warriors (who doesnt...) that takes Defense traitline. Now add that passive "here have some more unnecessary defense" traits where you get an extra (upto) 320 toughness JUST for picking that line. Neither of them you have to sacrifice anything for, both a little too passive. Just stay above 75% health (isnt too hard....) and give yourself Retal (again is it that hard!?) On top of that you get another unnecessary cool down reduction on your shield blocks (which most Warriors take...) Then you of course all take Last stance for even longer duration of your stances.

Okay so its not 3k Armour, but 2,500+ all for FREE isn't too bad either. Easily the best defensive traitline in the game. On top of a class with some of the best (already...) defenses and passive heals in the game. In WvW, you will have like 20k health quite easily due to the health increases that game mode comes with as well. So, 20k health. 2.5k Amour. Plenty of blocks, invuls, mobility, damage. What other class can be FULL zerk gear and still be so defensive?

its not 3k armor....... and its not for FREEtaking defense sacrfices offense, bersker strength, discipline was the roamers build till primal burst nerfeven if you say def is mandatory it only leaves you two.likewise if you take defy pain you lose armoured attack and so onso what you're saying is adding a defensive line adds defense.yupdoes.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Miko.4158 said:its not 3k armor....... and its not for FREEtaking defense sacrfices offense, bersker strength, discipline was the roamers build till primal burst nerfeven if you say def is mandatory it only leaves you two.likewise if you take defy pain you lose armoured attack and so onso what you're saying is adding a defensive line adds defense.yupdoes.

You take that one line and you can go FULL Zerk gear and STILL have more defense and sustain than most bunker builds that sacrifice all their damage for it. So yeah, its pretty much free. Because that line is SO strong that every warrior takes it. You take that one line and you pretty much dont need to worry about taking any defensive stats what so ever, I'd HAPPILY take such a traitline if it meant that i could go full Zerk gear and not have to worry. Most classes have to sacrifice to get defense, and no matter how much they sacrifice it wont be as good as Warrior just taking 1 Traitline, grab yourself the Shield (what warriors dont run shield?) and you're all set. You have insane passive regen healing without actually having to put anything into Healing power either.

Armored attack means nothing at all. Why? Because you can FULL gear for Zerk. So that really means nothing. No, what i am saying is that on a class that starts with such high health and high armour already, Defense line adds WAY too much more. Most classes have to sacrifice to get defense, they lose damage. The same can't be said for Warriors due to their starting health and armour the defense line likely being the BEST defense line in the game. Starting with 19k health and 2.2k Armour is bad enough but getting given free Toughness, passive self healing without actually needing to put anything into Healing Power like most have to.

[Miko.4158]

defense is nice I don't always run it and shield is pants.most people take defense because arms is rubbish and tactics is patchy I run guard and have easily as much defense with utilities , and better sustain through traits.if you are running full zerk, berserker/strength discipline is alot more bursty and mobile.sacrifice discipline lose mobilysacrifice strength lose gs+damagesacrifice berserk lose burst damage

its a trade off, like every other class.with all the damage and condi flying about toughness isn't the be all and end all its very role specific.armored attack vs defy pain is to stop tanks flipping their toughness into damage. (sneaky)the passive regen is also not going to help 1 vs 1, in zergs guards are better at the passive support boons are alot better hence we are riddled with boons.

I'd HAPPILY take such a traitline if it meant that i could go full Zerk gear and not have to worry

do it play warrior, most people dont as there are stronger classes, you cant cherry pick trait lines across classesotherwise I'd mix warrior toughness with guard heal and necro condi.....

is warrior op? no, I'd argue not.when full counter was awesome everyone was playing sb, nerfed they left.people vote with their feet.what people find unacceptable is a good warrior, its always the build that carries them.'easy profession etc'some of us play warrior for 5 years.just cos people rock up with a metabattle on "whatever" doesn't mean they are going to win.....

[Lazze.9870]

@Akeno.4962 said:

@"Lazze.9870" said:

It wouldn't be a prefered healer, spirits are a core ranger mechanic, and can be included in any ranger build. The second they change the druid specialization to only bring heals, you might aswell bring something that heals more and let soulbeasts or any other future ranger spec bring frost and/or sun spirit. The only benefit of spirits on a druid is that they can (and should for increased boon duration and more boons) fit Nature Magic into their builds.

Giving more alacrity to revs is a better way to create more variety in support builds. People still run two chronos.

By the way dps builds seem to work in this game (the most personal dps the better, chrono and druid will handle anything else apart from maybe some tough breakbars), the possibility of a soulbeast bringing spirits is considered inefficient, and therefore discarded. Because what really matters is not what's viable, is what pugs ask for.

I'm not saying that druids need to be 'only healers'. I just think they have to much built-in utility, cc and boons and they lose almost nothing to bring it. Revenants and tempest's are nothing similar, because they stop healing to bring something else, and even then they have much less to offer.

A balanced situation would be that each is preferred in a specific encounter, and since raw healing isn't something to call back home, something must be done in the other departments.

Soulbeast bringing spirits in THIS meta is inefficient. I wasn't talking about this meta. I'm talking about a meta where a druid isn't considered worth it. If you tip the balance enough in one direction, you could easily see dps rangers bringing spirits in the same vein warriors do with banners.

"Druid have to much built-in utility". No, druid doesn't. Not at all, really. Druid just allows the core ranger to pack all of its utility while healing, which makes it efficient. Ranger has some of the best pve utility among the core classes.

"A balanced situation would be that each is preferred in a specific encounter"It won't happen. I also find it hilarious that you just glance over the fact that people still run mirror chrono, and instead focus on the single druid. Mirror chrono currently makes firebrand with its quickness and rev with it's alacrity completely pointless. Anet could easily tweak stuff so that both of them can provide those buffs while healing. There you have your class variety. Not by removing might from the druid.

[Redponey.8352]

Hi here ,

The only thing that i pull out of this Feedback is that we need to split up into gamemodes (sPVP, PvE, WvW) cuz actually people are talking to each other but maybe not on the same gamemode issue about Game balance.

I think condi balance is not enough in WvW , because condi is still overpowered. we got still to much stack and duration and/or cure/resistant buff is not enough in Zerg/bus

When i roam, i also cant do not that much versus a player that play condi/tank , too much tankiness and too much stack duration.... most of the time i got killed only because it can apply to many stacks and i can purge it all.

WvW Balance need more gameplay ( need more inter-class combo rewarding , as waterfield + blast ) and skill rewarding. (it may seen elitist but it's not because it bring us teamplay and syngerzy between people).

actually most of field combos are obsolete except smoke field.

[Akeno.4962]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Akeno.4962 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

It wouldn't be a prefered healer, spirits are a core ranger mechanic, and can be included in any ranger build. The second they change the druid specialization to only bring heals, you might aswell bring something that heals more and let soulbeasts or any other future ranger spec bring frost and/or sun spirit. The only benefit of spirits on a druid is that they can (and should for increased boon duration and more boons) fit Nature Magic into their builds.

Giving more alacrity to revs is a better way to create more variety in support builds. People still run two chronos.

By the way dps builds seem to work in this game (the most personal dps the better, chrono and druid will handle anything else apart from maybe some tough breakbars), the possibility of a soulbeast bringing spirits is considered inefficient, and therefore discarded. Because what really matters is not what's viable, is what pugs ask for.

I'm not saying that druids need to be 'only healers'. I just think they have to much built-in utility, cc and boons and they lose almost nothing to bring it. Revenants and tempest's are nothing similar, because they stop healing to bring something else, and even then they have much less to offer.

A balanced situation would be that each is preferred in a specific encounter, and since raw healing isn't something to call back home, something must be done in the other departments.

Soulbeast bringing spirits in THIS meta is inefficient. I wasn't talking about this meta. I'm talking about a meta where a druid isn't considered worth it. If you tip the balance enough in one direction, you could easily see dps rangers bringing spirits in the same vein warriors do with banners.

"Druid have to much built-in utility". No, druid doesn't. Not at all, really. Druid just allows the core ranger to pack all of its utility while healing, which makes it efficient. Ranger has some of the best pve utility among the core classes.

"A balanced situation would be that each is preferred in a specific encounter"It won't happen. I also find it hilarious that you just glance over the fact that people still run mirror chrono, and instead focus on the single druid. Mirror chrono currently makes firebrand with its quickness and rev with it's alacrity completely pointless. Anet could easily tweak stuff so that both of them can provide those buffs while healing. There you have your class variety. Not by removing might from the druid.

For the meta to change to a state that a soulbeast must bring spirits like warrior does with banners now, it would require to either nerf massively druid or soulbeast's stances and traps, buff greatly its contenders or that a new and stronger spec is implemented. And I don't see the first two happening.

I've got an issue with this core vs spec stuff you say. Druid does bring utility that's used in current boss strategies: sublime conversion, vine surge, glyph of tides and natural convergence . Much more than anything renegade or tempest add to revenant or elementalists. But it's true that it's the core utility what makes it a beast difficult to beat and all these skills are just the cherry on top. However, only support specs are ever gonna take advantage of ranger's utility, again, because of the way meta builds are crafted. What turns a core ranger issue to a druid problem.

And i have to repeat myself, the problem with druid + chrono vs renegade + firebrand, imo, doesn't come from chrono's side. Not any longer since last patch's nerf to inspiring distortion. Firebrand provides much more quickness and much more easily than chrono can dream of, and it only needs a buff to its f1 area pull to be as effective as chrono's. And renegade can achieve close to 100% alacrity while necessarily healing their teammates through natural harmony spam while in Ventari (a not so well thought idea) and orders from above while in Kalla, even tough it requires the group to be as static as possible and it's a situation to improve. But as long as druid has the cc/utility to deal with mechanics, there's no way to compete.

TLDR: Druid (due partly to core ranger issues) is just too good in many aspects to not allow any kind of competition: boons, buffs, utility and good enough healing. They didn't need to compensate the loss of grace of the land. However, were the might to be completely removed, only mightsharing deadeye could provide 25 stacks of might to 10 people (i don't know the state of might-sharing warrior right now), so there are probably further changes to be made.

[Simeonus.9237]

I would love bleeding or burning on holosmith's sword auto attack, even if it can only apply after overheat. You don't use it for power anyways, cause shield OH is useless and Sword/Pistol combo bleeding/burning condi engi would be really funny to play.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Simeonus.9237 said:I would love bleeding or burning on holosmith's sword auto attack, even if it can only apply after overheat. You don't use it for power anyways, cause shield OH is useless and Sword/Pistol combo bleeding/burning condi engi would be really funny to play.

Yeah what we need is MORE mindless condition builds :/

[glass.3245]

I think that overall the condi changes have worked well; but they have made condi clear far too powerful and important, and made resistance practically useless.

Given the changes, you at the very least need to buff resistance duration so that it sits in line with the condi duration changes. Ideally you should give all classes some form of condi clear, especially revenant Mallyx which is now horribly underpowered in WvW.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@glass.3245 said:I think that overall the condi changes have worked well; but they have made condi clear far too powerful and important, and made resistance practically useless.

Given the changes, you at the very least need to buff resistance duration so that it sits in line with the condi duration changes. Ideally you should give all classes some form of condi clear, especially revenant Mallyx which is now horribly underpowered in WvW.

Other than Vs Mesmer which is just too much even for the best condi removal, i think its quite well balanced when its Conditions Vs Removal. Revenant DOES have condition removal, the problem is its spread too wide around several legends and skills both legend skills and weapon skills as well as traitlines. I think that Mal needs its Resistance changed from a Boon effect to buff effect so that its duration can be perfectly set to X duration that wouldnt be able to be increased but also wouldnt be able to be removed or corrupted.

[Simeonus.9237]

Would be nice if ANet do something with powerful synergy trait - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Powerful_Synergy , because as grandmaster it's pretty bad and since PS is not viable anymore there are no good GMs in tactics traitline.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Crinn.7864 said:Condi engi was never a bunker at any point in time, and condi engi probably had one of the more brutal learning curves of it's era.

Curious, when did you start playing the game? There were MANY bunker Condi builds for Engineer. If they still work as well now would be debatable but they DID have them.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@schloumou.3982 said:P/P Core was way squischier and harder to play than Powerscrapper. Look up the builds, play them, you will see. I have about the same playtime on power and condibuilds of multiple classes and the statement that condi is easier in general is just not true.

That would be debateable, i msyelf saw quite the few Bunker versions. Too be fair, other than Warrior and Mesmer, most base professions are weaker and harder to play than the new specs. That goes for pretty much every other class than the 2 i mentioned. Bunker Condi is DEFIENTLY easier. This is coming from a WvW view point, might be different in PvP and PvE but in WvW the damage, the bunker defense and such made most Condi builds VERY easy to play.

I remember the good old days of D/D Condi ele that was hella fun, but oddly the buff to conditions was actually a nerf to ele because it relied on too few conditions for its damage and unlike say Guardian or Engineer couldnt burst Burning to melt people.

[schloumou.3982]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@schloumou.3982 said:P/P Core was way squischier and harder to play than Powerscrapper. Look up the builds, play them, you will see. I have about the same playtime on power and condibuilds of multiple classes and the statement that condi is easier in general is just not true.

That would be debateable, i msyelf saw quite the few Bunker versions.

Thing is if they bunker they cant deal dmg. They need crit to proc Incendiary Powder, they need the offhand pistol for Blow Torch and core engi utilities and traits dont really give much room for a bunker. So why would you bunker on a class that cant support or do dmg especially in your WvW scenario?

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@schloumou.3982 said:Thing is if they bunker they cant deal dmg. They need crit to proc Incendiary Powder, they need the offhand pistol for Blow Torch and core engi utilities and traits dont really give much room for a bunker. So why would you bunker on a class that cant support or do dmg especially in your WvW scenario?

The thing ids, you only really need 20-25% crit chance, crit damage means nothing as Condi. Which can be done quite easily with a few bits of Rabid gear with the rest being Trailblazer and Dire. You'll hit 2k Toughness, 1.4k Condition damage, 20% chit chance, 20k health and still have options for food and sigils. as well as Infusions.

[schloumou.3982]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@schloumou.3982 said:Thing is if they bunker they cant deal dmg. They need crit to proc Incendiary Powder, they need the offhand pistol for Blow Torch and core engi utilities and traits dont really give much room for a bunker. So why would you bunker on a class that cant support or do dmg especially in your WvW scenario?

The thing ids, you only really need 20-25% crit chance, crit damage means nothing as Condi.

No that is not true since a lot of dmg comes from sigil and traitprocs and later depends on the build

Which can be done quite easily with a few bits of Rabid gear with the rest being Trailblazer and Dire. You'll hit 2k Toughness, 1.4k Condition damage, 20% chit > > >chance, 20k health and still have options for food and sigils. as well as Infusions.

Popular Power builds of Wariors hit 20k life easily too for example and if you think 2k toughness is what makes a bunker i can really not help you man. I see you have your oppinion and i cant change it but i recomment you try and play some builds for a couple of hours and you may realise that there are condi aswell as powerbuilds that are lacking tradeoffs in the risk vs reward department and vice versa.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@schloumou.3982 said:No that is not true since a lot of dmg comes from sigil and traitprocs and later depends on the build

Sigils? That would again depend on what you take, most would take something like Geomancy or Hydromancy neither of which require crit chance for any effect.

@schloumou.3982 said:Popular Power builds of Wariors hit 20k life easily too for example and if you think 2k toughness is what makes a bunker i can really not help you man. I see you have your oppinion and i cant change it but i recomment you try and play some builds for a couple of hours and you may realise that there are condi aswell as powerbuilds that are lacking tradeoffs in the risk vs reward department and vice versa.

I'd say the stealth options, healing options, water fields, combo finishers and such would all help to go into that Bunker theme. Which most will have access to because most people run Healing Turret (god i hate that myself - A.E.D is life!) I have played the game since pre-launch with every class other than Warrior. Played Condi build on most of them at one point or another except Guardian Mesmer, Necro, Engi, Ranger and the like were all VERY easy to play as when running Condi. Of course its VERY boring to play as but some people find it interesting.

[schloumou.3982]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:Sigils? That would again depend on what you take, most would take something like Geomancy or Hydromancy neither of which require crit chance for any effect.

If anyone would still play a condiengi despite the fact he cant kill anything other than a rev he would probably want Torment to fix the lack of covercondis to secure the burst.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

Played Condi build on most of them at one point or another except Guardian Mesmer, Necro, Engi, Ranger and the like were all VERY easy to play as when running Condi. Of course its VERY boring to play as but some people find it interesting.

Ok so out of curiosity i checked your post history and you provided some clips a few days ago of that higher difficulty very unboring power gameplay of yours vs players whose wvw rank and gameplay implied that they have just found out what that B button does. And because you said you play since release i think you know the place where you are recording is the ruin where PVE players go to do their daily. Im tempted to assume you seek these super unboring fights. On the other hand it explains the weird builds you encounter like Condi-Holo or bunker Core. Let me assure you some condi and powerbuilds become harder to play when your opponent knows what his and your skills do.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/23556/video-wvw-weaver-roaming

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"schloumou.3982" said:Ok so out of curiosity i checked your post history and you provided some clips a few days ago of that higher difficulty very unboring power gameplay of yours vs players whose wvw rank and gameplay implied that they have just found out what that B button does. And because you said you play since release i think you know the place where you are recording is the ruin where PVE players go to do their daily. Im tempted to assume you seek these super unboring fights. On the other hand it explains the weird builds you encounter like Condi-Holo or bunker Core. Let me assure you some condi and powerbuilds become harder to play when your opponent knows what his and your skills do.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/23556/video-wvw-weaver-roaming

Its cute that you think someones rank defines their skill level. It never has done and never will do. When you can zerg and blob your way to high rank. The ranking system will NEVER be something used to define how good someone actually is at WvW. Because it is just a flawed system to judge someones skill.

"unboring" So, you're saying its not boring!? Is that a bad thing that its not boring? Im kinda confused as to what you meant with that comment. You would also be wrong, i see PLENTY of actual roamers in the ruins, especially when servers are trying to take the ruins. Your assumptions show your view point of the game mode is very different. I have seen plenty of good players in the ruins, plus. You do know that the ruins daily isnt actually every day right? So wouldnt that mean that they would be staying AWAY from the ruins on those days!?

Gain with the "unboring" what do you mean by that!? Do you mean boring? Hell, i actually play a hybrid Dagger Scourge myself. Though not often. I am more of someone that stays as far away from "meta" builds as i possibly can, as they tend to be builds that will make even bad players look good with how easy they are. SOME builds. Notice the SOME. Very important. On say a class like Ele or Revenant playing Condi is VERY hard. Limited conditions, limited removals and/or damage. They can be countered quite easily due to how poor their condi burst is. Compare that to others like Mesmer, Scourge and such. Even back in the day the Burn Engineer (and Guard...) used to be hella broken. They arent so much now because the Condi meta has forced everyone to take as much condi removal as they can.

And too be fair, that video is from like the first week or so of me playing Weaver. As you can see from a few too many mistakes that i make. Getting readjusted to playing Ele again, used to love Ele but Tempest was SO boring glad its finally got another fun spec.

[schloumou.3982]

Seriously, are you roleplaying someone?

[Lunateric.3708]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Simeonus.9237 said:I would love bleeding or burning on holosmith's sword auto attack, even if it can only apply after overheat. You don't use it for power anyways, cause shield OH is useless and Sword/Pistol combo bleeding/burning condi engi would be really funny to play.

Yeah what we need is MORE mindless condition builds :/

If you think Condi engi on any iteration is mindless I don't know what to say. Condi engi is the hardest class to play rotation and awareness wise in PvE.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Lunateric.3708 said:If you think Condi engi on any iteration is mindless I don't know what to say. Condi engi is the hardest class to play rotation and awareness wise in PvE.

Sorry to break it to you, PvE isnt the ONLY part of this game. I am talkign where balance matters the MOST PvP and WvW. Condi builds ARE the easiest in these modes and have been dominating for FAR too long.