A New PvP Mode is Coming to Guild Wars 2--We Need Your Help Developing It!

[OrangeCorleone.2590]

The game is not balanced for this game mode. The same way League of Legends 5v5 is not balanced the same way as the bridge game mode. There are a lot of character and specs rebalancing required to make this game even remotely playable as an eSports. There are less incentive to play range specs on this game mode compared to other game mode. The reflects and boon balling is too strong. Protection and Stab last too long in this boon ball game mode compared to the lack of boon strip per specs on each character. The game mode doesn't encourage players to play other specs beside the few boon ball characters. The game needs more skill that removes AoE boons or damaging skills on the floor. There is a lack of Line of Sight protection (like poles or pillars) around some areas to prevent them from getting pulled by the boon ball team. High ground should be an advantage but it's literally useless in this game mode since the game only cares about set distance. Looking to play something else in the mean time since there seems to be a restructuring in the Anet dev team.

[Rym.1469]

Don't want to be rude, but this ain't it for me. It very much reminds me of the old try at Team Deathmatch and repeats many of it's mistakes in my eyes, specifically the snowbally aspect and comp/build reliance. Also, it would probably require some gamemode-based adjustments or leaderboards that are profession-based rather than one basket to promote not playing just a bunch of supports + aoe pressure dps.

I'd like to try a version of it in 10v10 scenario, because it could reduce impact of having 1 incorrect build/missing role and generally reduce individual weight on the outcome. You can experiment with what others suggested regarding more objectives on the map.

Or you can try something fresh. I'd very strongly recommend either a build draft mode of some sort or a Battle-Royale like where all aspects of the build (profession, traits, utilities, amulets or even individual gear pieces, weapons etc etc) can be looted. Like a more in-depth Plunderstorm that's more grounded in the game combat systems and allows casual players to learn skills, how to make a cohesive build etc., while also being not very serious and replayable. Due to how GW2 is designed with a high dose of flexibility, it is quite unique in that it could actually work in this sort of build-a-bear scenario and not many other MMOs share that possibility.

This is also probably my second complaint about Push in the current form - I think it's not distinct enough from Conquest and one would cannibalize the other.

That's said, just the fact that we are getting some spvp development and thought is very cool and reassuring and I hope you guys can work with feedback given, unlike with what happened with Stronghold.

Edited September 11 by Rym.1469

[Shoto.1694]

9 hours ago, Carliskaya.3612 said:

Feedback on Push Beta Mode (September 11, 2024)

After playing seven matches in the new Push Beta mode (September 10, 2024), I’d like to share my initial impressions and suggestions.

Initial Impressions:

The current iteration of the Push Beta mode feels problematic in a game where every class can assume roles such as tank, healer, or DPS. My enjoyment of PvP comes from engaging challenges, head-to-head combat, and strategic maneuvers that can turn the tide of a game. Unfortunately, I didn’t find these elements in the new mode so far. Here are some issues I encountered:

1. Lack of Impact from Kills: The current gameplay often makes individual kills seem inconsequential, especially when one player can effectively hold off multiple enemies. Players respawn quickly and return to the point, which diminishes the significance of kill/death ratios.

2. Overemphasis on Tankiness and Crowd Control: Success seems overly reliant on being tanky and having strong crowd control abilities. Skills and strategic gameplay appear to be overshadowed by class decisions and survivability. Kiting seems inefficient, and roaming classes appear to be underutilized. The mode emphasizes class selection over player skill during matches, reducing the strategic depth.

Suggestions for Improvement:

1. Introduce Checkpoints and a 5v5 Deathmatch: Consider creating three checkpoints for each side and structuring the game as a 5v5 deathmatch. Players would need to stand on a point alone to advance it, but once dead, a player stays out until the point reaches a checkpoint. This would maintain the mode's essence while enhancing the importance of team fights and focus.

2. Add Multiple Lanes for Strategic Depth: Implement multiple lanes where points must be pushed towards goals. This would introduce more strategic gameplay and encourage diverse tactics.

3. Enhance Role Variety and Objectives: Increase the appeal for different roles by adding more objectives. Ensure that every action has a counteraction available to the opposing team. Consider incorporating small jumping puzzles or environmental objectives, such as traps that roaming roles can exploit.

4. Allow for Pre-Determined Team Composition: If major changes to the mode are not feasible, consider allowing five-player teams to queue together. This would enable players to strategize team compositions beforehand, making the matches feel fairer and more competitive.

Conclusion:

Overall, I appreciate the increased focus on PvP and the effort put into creating new modes. However, for the mode to be engaging and rewarding, it needs to foster action and reaction, challenge player skills, and make players feel their decisions have a tangible impact on the outcome. It’s crucial that matchmaking and class decisions do not overshadow individual skill and strategic play.

Thank you for considering this feedback. I look forward to seeing how the mode evolves.

pog

[Wulfhearth.7962]

First impressions after playing the gamemode for a day:

So far it's been a lot of fun and the concept of the mode seems promising. The non-stop teamfight mode does what it promised: fast paced action.  If this mode becomes a thing, i would consistently play it and hope the devs keep developing it.

More interesting terrain with extra obstacles and more curves in the path would be cool.  I would also be interested in trying versions of this mode with more or less payers than 5v5., to see where the optimum is. And to fulfill it's full potential, the mode would need to be balanced for, of course. 

I've tried various builds and classes and most were decently successful at first, that might change as more of a meta forms however. (I might leave another post after playing more of the mode) Heavy CC and damage are very oppressive, offensive builds with built in defenses like blocks and invulns seem to outperform straight up bunkers in my experience.  So far i have also yet to win against a team that has a spear willbender...

 

 

Edited September 11 by Wulfhearth.7962

[DragonKnight.5738]

The intention of adding new maps/content for sPvP is great, however PUSH is not!
First, it lacks dynamism and the possibility of using different strategies to change through the game, the idea of having multiple objectives in the current maps is to provide this opportunity by changing the pace and the match-ups, giving different chances and possibilities for both teams, with PUSH we just just have one fight, and the fight became stale easily, there are no much room from strategy and changing the game. So, unless we have teams very balanced (what we don't have with current match making) the chance that the team that wins the first match-up wins is huge, especially when considering the downed state.
Besides, the lack of balance is very clear, like long ranged weapon will clearly have advantages (more they already have), especially against melee. Some classes are very strong in these type of face to face match-ups and others will be not used at all.
Btw, the fights feels similar to a small version of a boon ball fight (WvW), and for my perspective from redit and this forum, boon ball are not very appreciate with exception of big guilds, beside, some people playing sPvP don't play WvW because of boon balls, so creating a small version of boon ball would not be recommended.
Lastly, and most important, it don't seems to be fun!

Suggestion, if you want to continue with the "push" concept at least make it more similar to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Battle_of_Champion's_Dusk.

[Quartz.3462]

I've played a few games so far and have lost more than I have won (3 wins 4 losses). I am really happy with the direction of the game mode. I don't like conquest and this is far more to my liking. I like the heavy combat and team fights.

As someone who has played melee rev with all the games I disagree with more terrain needing to be added. It's nice to finally have some gameplay where reflects/projectile block are far more meaningful to stopping ranged attacks instead of terrain.

Some games have felt very one sided but I don't think they are worse than conquest and the games are over fast if you're being stomped. I think the short games with high teamfighting really makes it fun. I really want Anet to avoid more objectives since it makes it more conquest like and ruins the fun of the game mode which is just casual jump in and team fight. I can imagine conquest players not liking it but it has a massive draw for me who really dislikes conquest. 

[coro.3176]

major frustrations right now:

• losing to comp, and not being able to do anything about it (can't change builds or strategies)
• the downstate game - too much of the match is decided by rallies. too much time spent down / trying to res / trying to finish. Personally, I hate this part of the game, but it feels like 90% of the fight is this
• afks and people quitting after the first teamfight - if the game wasn't lost already, it definitely is after someone kittening quits
• players just running all over the map apparently oblivious to the objective

Edited September 11 by coro.3176

[Atoclone.4810]

how about removing stillness and co but instead put a variable debuff/buff on the pushything (have we come up with a decent name for it yet?) . i've found in matches that once a team gets on a roll its very hard to push back enough for a win. What i'm suggesting is the closer you get the the final objective the more the pushything puts out a debuff for the attackers and buff for the defenders. Make them fight up hill basically.

if the goal is to ease folks into normal modes i think you'd be better off minimizing the distractions and preventing them from getting murdered in under 3 mins flat.

[Reznov.5423]

6 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

 

• players just running all over the map apparently oblivious to the objective

I will take the fast pip anytime, lol

[Atoclone.4810]

4 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

 

• players just running all over the map apparently oblivious to the objective

I feel you on that one. what i've found to be helping is just saying at the start some thing like " lets all concentrate on team fight and keep pushing for quick win". Well it's either my little pep talk or people are getting more of an idea how it works, it has only been going for a couple of days so there's still a lot of first timers.

[Voegelin.5642]

My big suggestion is to give more info about the game mode  before a person is playing it. Some notes explaining it or something.

[coro.3176]

2 minutes ago, Voegelin.5642 said:

My big suggestion is to give more info about the game mode  before a person is playing it. Some notes explaining it or something.

Kind of funny because this is on the pop-up that appears before every single game, but no one reads it

[Lord Korag.8439]

Not sure if I should comment the push mode itself as it has been several years since I was a really actively participating PvP player, however, the new mode seems to offer a quite lot opportunities to fight. I somehow feel like PvP itself is glass cannon against glass cannon these days, so I have picked some meta build and my push mode win rate is somewhere around 50/50, despite I was unsure what I am doing occasionaly – only trying to shred off conditions. But the claimable buffs seems reasonable, the path seems reasonable. Overall I think the common PvPers shall enjoy the push mode more than they enjoy the stronghold mode (which is also interesting in some mechanics, indeed), if it is more enjoyable than the cap mode, only the time can tell, as more maps will emerge.

What I would really like to comment is the theme of the map. I saw some Jormag decorations at the blue spawn and I though the push mode is ideal for the Primordus vs Jormag theme. Red and blue team pushing agains each other like heat and cold. One half of the map scorched and ablaze, the other frigid and icy. It could really give the fight some extra value.

[source.1628]

We pushed point further to enemy and we were holding the point when time ended. But we lost 🙂

[coro.3176]

1 minute ago, source.1628 said:

We pushed point further to enemy and we were holding the point when time ended. But we lost 🙂

It's not made very clear by the stuff on map, but if the enemy ever pushed the point further than you at all, regardless of where the point is when time is up, then you lose.

[Reimu.9412]

Various thoughts:

Firstly - unless you wanted only to get feedback and data from players more 'tuned in', launching the push beta in this state was a bad idea. Between launching it at the same time as one of the most popular bonus events, no in-game prompt that the beta's going on,  and not changing the name from "Mode: Team Deathmatch" to "Mode: Push" causing confusion, this is going to kneecap player participation numbers. That's totally fine if the intent was to keep the sample size more limited, but something to keep in mind if it wasn't intentional and if this beta's participation metrics are going to be used to decide if moving forward with the game mode is a good idea - this simply wouldn't be a fair test in that regard.

The game mode needs time-delay check points (ideally one per side for the sake of pacing) that stop the point until it's been held uncontested on them for a certain time interval as a one-time wall (see: FFXIV's crystalline conflict). Without them, there's no good opportunity to regroup and snowballs spiral out of control way too fast. Matches shouldn't last that long of course, but there needs to be at least some hope of a comeback otherwise inevitably the game mode will just descend into "we lost the first team fight GG."

5v5 team fight balance just isn't in a good enough place for this game mode to work right now at any casual level. CC and stunlocks are rampant, matches can be won or lost instantly based on comp, and if you don't know how to play around it you're just going to die horribly and be a liability. At the very least there needs to be super-harsh diminishing returns (or an outright small immunity window based on CC size) on hard CC in push.

Support is simply too powerful and games are won or lost based on if you happened to queue in with one or not. Some sort of conditional Push-specific nerf needs to be applied to outgoing healing and boons to at least close the gap between a team with a support and one without one - whilst matchmaking forcing a support would also theoretically be a solution, there is no way right now for guild wars 2 to force you to play a supporting build. See also: how FFXIV nearly entirely removed healers from crystalline conflict.

Projectile hate fields combined with forcing people to fight on a singular point are making reflectable/blockable projectiles way too binary right now, and reducing those builds to "do they or don't they have a critical mass of projectile hate to make a projectile build useless?"

Adding onto this, duo queuing is just too powerful right now. Letting you ensure what two members of your team are going to do on top of them being in coms with one-another is stacking the deck too much and even if you force teams with duos to fight only other teams with duos, that just turns into a question of "who got the better duo?" They just have too much influence on the match.

Right now the difference between a "good" or even "viable" and a "bad" build is insurmountably large, and there's no ingame resources for people to get started playing something that's ensured to be at least decent. Ingame resources need to be added with starter builds. This is also a problem for conquest of course, it's just very pronounced now that you're trying to get fresh blood into spvp once more.

Down state bleed out should be heavily accelerated or ramped up over time, or people should be given a suicide button in downstate, on top of bandage being removed. If you're the last person to be downed and you happen to be off the point, ignoring you or throwing on a weak DoT is the tactical decision for the enemy team and they can turn it into a 4v5. Worse if the player doesn't understand this and tries to bandage - it is almost never correct to bandage, and for the sake of it being a accessible, casual format, it should just be removed entirely. Down state in general might not really make sense for this game mode, it can draw things out way too long and cause fights to snowball on top of the previously mentioned issues, but that's a more extreme solution.

The off-the-point buffs shouldn't exist at all. For the goal of accessibility, the game mode should be kept as simple as possible - there should be no reason to not be on the point at all times, nor for people to get upset at others for not doing so. Even if it introduces more tactical nuance in theory, in practice a long-standing issue with pvp is the toxicity and confusion born from questioning other people's decisions, and it would best be avoided in a game mode meant to be accessible and casual. Also right now the central buff is just a snowballing factor for the winning team.

Some sort of out of combat movement speed zone lane (see again FFXIV's crystalline conflict) would aid immensely in awkward situations where one or two people have died and re-spawned but the rest of the team is still alive, and would provide increased value to trying to hold out for potential regrouping/rallies. 

Also remove the gold cost for pvp amulets already, they're a unnecessary barrier to entry.

Edited September 11 by Reimu.9412

[Jaemes.3290]

In this game, there's only 1 cart and only 1 teamfight happening so your only choice is to zug the node and hope your team doesn't wipe first. 

In the WoW version of push, isn't there 3 carts? This adds an additional element of strategy because you can choose which cart to go to and potentially swing a fight in your team's favor to clutch the win. This also gives you an alternative to bashing your head into the wall repeatedly against a superiorly RNG'd enemy team comp. This also brings back the viability of self-sufficient dueling and roaming classes who can play to survive and push less pressured carts.

This idea might make it too difficult for the noobs this mode is targeting to understand though.

[Kuya.6495]

So to start, the scoring UI needs to be clearer. The 0/0 most of the match until someone pushes the point to the enemy's base is unclear and confusing. It would help if a new UI for the new game mode made it immediately clear how far each side has pushed and how far they are from the goal.  That way a quick glance up on the UI can inform you of the current status of the match. It would also help if the UI showed which side got what buffs as well. 

I'm sure I'll have more feedback once I play more but this was probably the thing that stood out the most to me.

[Grunim.9034]

I played around 15 matches or so to test it.  The UI is terrible, I can't tell which direction I should be pushing.  The little flags are much too small and if I'm on red team I am supposed to push toward a red flag?  Not enough explanation was given in the UI.

It also mentions there are capture points for your team to hold.  Again the UI is terrible, I can't determine what is a capture point.  The only thing I really understood was when I could commune with a buff point, that part made sense to me.

People were throwing matches and afking instead of fighting.  This will not get me to return to sPvP, pity because I really enjoyed sPvP back in 2012-13 but the playerbase was much different then too.
 

[coro.3176]

Suggest having a 100% damage buff when attacking downed players, because holy kitten there is too much downstate in this game. Every fight is just about who gets downed when and who rallys

Edited September 12 by coro.3176

[nosleepdemon.1368]

Holy cow new PvP content?? To tell you the truth I thought 'Push' meant we'd be doing some sort of lane warfare with minions, which I was quite excited about. But this also looks good! And hey, new PvP content?! This is great, will definitely give it a go cheers ANet!

[Kervv.6039]

I've only been in around 4 matches in the last 2 days that I was on a team that actually played the map objective. I don't know if this is just crazy bad RNG on my part or what. The games played that I've had a team that played the map were enjoyable. But that has been a rarity for me. I know the map is new and we are all learning but I've only won 6 out of 24 games. I am the lowest on the leader board I've ever been 😬

It does seem to favor bunker and high CC builds. As a thief I have to be more careful than usual to go into team fights so I often feel left out of the match. Unless I play Deadeye, anytime I try and slow the progress of the opposing team I die almost instantly to the absurd amount of AOE damage. So I figure I'm meant to be going for the buffs and tranquility. Kind of like de-capping in the conquest maps.  I'm not 100% sure what the buffs are or what tranquility does. But grabbing them has never resulted in (that I am aware of) any meaningful change in the balance of the game or help to my team. They aren't frequent enough to feel like they were put in to give me a purpose for my class/build. As a matter of fact many times I'm the only person running to get them. So I am at a loss as to what my place in this mode is.

If this is meant to be an intro to PvP with simpler mechanics than Conquest I think the mark has been missed. The fact that Arenanet thought they had to try and  make something easier than controlling 3 points and the occasional secondary objective for this community is hard to wrap my head around. Either they think we are stupid or the general pvp population really is that dumb with an embarrassingly low ability to follow the simplest of map objectives.

As of right now this feels more like mini boonballs fighting in WvW than a fun new PvP map mode. And the boonballs are one of the main reasons I steer clear of WvW. It feels ridiculous and nothing I do seemsto have meaning or consequence.

I really look forward to adding more later in the week and seeing what the community and the designers work out.

 

[Kervv.6039]

1 hour ago, Kervv.6039 said:

The fact that Arenanet thought they had to try and  make something easier than controlling 3 points and the occasional secondary objective for this community is hard to wrap my head around. Either they think we are stupid or the general pvp population really is that dumb with an embarrassingly low ability to follow the simplest of map objectives.

Okay...so I was maybe a bit to harsh here due to my really bad run of luck with matches. Just played a few more and things haven't quite evened out but I had a much better experience 🙂

[maxwelgm.4315]

After the 30th match, while the mode is still very fun, I think it's important to feedback that "mini boonball" is definitely going to be meta here if not enough of the mode is changed. This is an unpopular strat in WvW with several supports accumulating so much boons and heals on top of a moving group that no amount of AoEs or corruption other than outright sniping one of the supports is enough to land a kill. And of course, because this is DuoQ only and we don't have the sheer number superiority as we have in WvW, there is nearly no way to snipe a double or triple support team.

Whenever there is no double support or no good spear WB around, then matches are far less lopsided and teamfights are fun. So in sum, the mode has little issues in itself compared to how many issues the balance will have in the long run.

[ArcanistSeven.8720]

Putting balancing issues aside and looking just at the game it is fun but in my opinion has some issues.

-Games are way too fast on average my games last about 4 minutes with 2 minutes being my shortest game because 1 team always steam rolls.

-The payload (which is what i call the moving point thanks to Overwatch) moves too fast. 1 team wipe and they're already 60% of the way at our spawn or vice versa.

-I think the payloads movement should be dependant on how many players on the same team are on it. lets say when red team is pushing the payload forward it gets 5% increased movement for each red team member on it but blue team gets 5% increased movement backwards for each blue member on it. This way it incentivises to play the objective and stops 1 bunker from stalling the point because 2 people can still push it.

-Maybe when the payload is half way have an objective that you need to cap to open a gate to proceed further.

I think it would be cool to have something like invasion from halo reach where you have attackers cap 2 objectives for point #1 then push a payload for the point #2 and then carry a flag/bomb/macguffin to a drop off point for point #3 then switch sides for a best 2 out of 3. this would scratch the itch for players who want conquest, push the payload and CTF game modes.

The big problem with this proposal i think is time because you dont want the game to drag on for 20 minutes but if you dont give enough time to do the objectives bunkers can stall the cap objective at the beginning unless you have the cap objective at the end.

I doubt this will be taken into consideration but its fun to come up with idea's

 

 

 

Edited September 12 by ArcanistSeven.8720