Guild kicking needs to be burnt and rebuilt

[exeggcuter.8394]

So, from a design perspective, the way kicking from a guild works in this game is insufferable.

 

I quit WvW, and thus Guild Wars 2 (possibly forever) partly because of this. When a player gets kicked from a guild, there is no message saying WHO kicked the person, so there is no way to track down who's doing what or why, if they are trying to be sneaky. Outside of WvW this doesn't matter, since being in a guild doesn't do much. In WvW, with the alliance system, this means a singular terrible person can screw over your ability to play with your friends. If they time it right, they can ruin a whole bunch of people's experience for a month or more. As an added bonus, there is currently no way to allow someone to invite players, without giving them the ability to kick players, or vice versa. Imagine a new alliance with several smaller guilds. Now imagine a guild leader has a grudge against one of the other guilds but hasn't expressly shared their feelings with anyone. All they'd need to do is wait until it's too late to fix the damage to kick everyone on that guild they hate. I can't speak for anyone else, but this sort of junk has already happened to me for the most absolutely PETTY of reasons.

Anet, at the very least, change the way the guild system works to SHOW who kicked who, and make it so guild leaders can give the ability for someone to invite people, without being able to kick people. The only reason I never noticed this before is because I never needed to figure out who is causing problems before. Only to realize there is no decisive way to figure that out.

 

TLDR: Go nuts with shenanigans. Kick people from your alliance you don't like no matter how petty the reason. Nobody will ever know.

P.S. to the mods: I already saved this to a .txt file. Delete this and I will repost it verbatim until this gets fixed or I get banned.

[Sareth.6584]

I SECOND THIS YARGHHHH

[Anekto.8391]

20 minutes ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

As an added bonus, there is currently no way to allow someone to invite players, without giving them the ability to kick players, or vice versa.

I think you can only kick people below your rank or maximum same rank as you. so if you give invite rights you have to promote the ppl manually above kickable rank. usually recruiters have a recruit rank and ppl get set to the appropriate rank to not be kickable. Also you cant inv and set a rank above your own.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

21 minutes ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

Outside of WvW this doesn't matter, since being in a guild doesn't do much.

LOL 😆 Someone's living inside a bubble....

[CafPow.1542]

I really do understand your problem. The best thing i guess is that you are not in a guild where people like this linger around.

[TheGrimm.5624]

52 minutes ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

So, from a design perspective, the way kicking from a guild works in this game is insufferable.

 

I quit WvW, and thus Guild Wars 2 (possibly forever) partly because of this. When a player gets kicked from a guild, there is no message saying WHO kicked the person, so there is no way to track down who's doing what or why, if they are trying to be sneaky. Outside of WvW this doesn't matter, since being in a guild doesn't do much. In WvW, with the alliance system, this means a singular terrible person can screw over your ability to play with your friends. If they time it right, they can ruin a whole bunch of people's experience for a month or more. As an added bonus, there is currently no way to allow someone to invite players, without giving them the ability to kick players, or vice versa. Imagine a new alliance with several smaller guilds. Now imagine a guild leader has a grudge against one of the other guilds but hasn't expressly shared their feelings with anyone. All they'd need to do is wait until it's too late to fix the damage to kick everyone on that guild they hate. I can't speak for anyone else, but this sort of junk has already happened to me for the most absolutely PETTY of reasons.

Anet, at the very least, change the way the guild system works to SHOW who kicked who, and make it so guild leaders can give the ability for someone to invite people, without being able to kick people. The only reason I never noticed this before is because I never needed to figure out who is causing problems before. Only to realize there is no decisive way to figure that out.

 

TLDR: Go nuts with shenanigans. Kick people from your alliance you don't like no matter how petty the reason. Nobody will ever know.

P.S. to the mods: I already saved this to a .txt file. Delete this and I will repost it verbatim until this gets fixed or I get banned.

It's documented. 

The roster log shows who kicked who. Agree it doesn't inform a player of being kicked but the event does get noted, not sure there is a limit in how far back that goes.

Edit: Sorry I short handed this since not in game. It's history then roster. So you could find out who kicked you if you reach out to someone still in guild and have them check the tab. I don't think that is a permission based thing to view that info, but again, not in game right now.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_panel#/media/File:Guild_HoT_panel_history.jpg 

Edited Thursday at 05:12 PM by TheGrimm.5624
Shorthand, spelling

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

In WvW, with the alliance system

There is no alliance system. Which is a large part of your problem.

[Wolfhound.4381]

IIRC that's under admin lower ranks. It gives you the ability to invite, kick, and promote up to your level. The kick perm should be separated from that. Sometimes you want a recruiter but you don't want to also give them the power to boot people.

And now it's an even bigger deal. Some officer that gets disgruntled with leadership could boot people right before the team selection deadline just to be a jerk.

[One more for the road.8950]

2 hours ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

So, from a design perspective, the way kicking from a guild works in this game is insufferable.

 

I quit WvW, and thus Guild Wars 2 (possibly forever) partly because of this. When a player gets kicked from a guild, there is no message saying WHO kicked the person, so there is no way to track down who's doing what or why, if they are trying to be sneaky. Outside of WvW this doesn't matter, since being in a guild doesn't do much. In WvW, with the alliance system, this means a singular terrible person can screw over your ability to play with your friends. If they time it right, they can ruin a whole bunch of people's experience for a month or more. As an added bonus, there is currently no way to allow someone to invite players, without giving them the ability to kick players, or vice versa. Imagine a new alliance with several smaller guilds. Now imagine a guild leader has a grudge against one of the other guilds but hasn't expressly shared their feelings with anyone. All they'd need to do is wait until it's too late to fix the damage to kick everyone on that guild they hate. I can't speak for anyone else, but this sort of junk has already happened to me for the most absolutely PETTY of reasons.

Anet, at the very least, change the way the guild system works to SHOW who kicked who, and make it so guild leaders can give the ability for someone to invite people, without being able to kick people. The only reason I never noticed this before is because I never needed to figure out who is causing problems before. Only to realize there is no decisive way to figure that out.

 

TLDR: Go nuts with shenanigans. Kick people from your alliance you don't like no matter how petty the reason. Nobody will ever know.

P.S. to the mods: I already saved this to a .txt file. Delete this and I will repost it verbatim until this gets fixed or I get banned.

Uh.

If someone still in the guild goes to "history" they can see who kicked. And if there's too much other stuff there they can click on the "roster" option.

Edited Thursday at 06:19 PM by One more for the road.8950

[TheIceman.1039]

You can make it so that the one who invites to join can't kick out new members at the same time. just move the new members rank up from the recruiter rank. This way, they can invite new members to the Guild, but they can't kick them out.

[exeggcuter.8394]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

It's documented. 

The roster log shows who kicked who.

You are correct, apparently I'm just an illiterate. Still, it would be nice if you could filter the history list by word, or at least export it to a .txt file. That's probably too much an ask, tbh. That's likely hard to program. I still stand by the idea that kicking and inviting should be separate functions, however. The alliance I'm now in has rank sorted by which guild they came from, but that kind of organizing is ... hard. I dunno, this feels very much square peg into round hole design to me. Seems like ANet went through extreme lengths to shove this mega guild system down our throats without ensuring the way guilds are currently constructed actually, like, works well. I feel it would work a lot better if you could, say, have it so people can only kick from their own rank (IE guild). But no, instead we're stuck with a system that is somehow worse than World of Warcraft.

[Anekto.8391]

1 minute ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

But no, instead we're stuck with a system that is somehow worse than World of Warcraft.

I am convinced anet was never convinced themselves they would implement anything like WR even after promising it more than 6 ? years ago. And in the end they just slapped some stuff together and called it a day.

[TheGrimm.5624]

57 minutes ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

this feels very much square peg into round hole design to me.

They started a process flow document on the Alliance system but it was still just a large guild as well. I think that as leads were passed along they were sold on the same concept that a a Guild and an Alliance are just mostly the same thing. I agree with your analogy. 

57 minutes ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

Seems like ANet went through extreme lengths to shove this mega guild system down our throats without ensuring the way guilds are currently constructed actually, like, works well. I feel it would work a lot better if you could, say, have it so people can only kick from their own rank (IE guild). But no, instead we're stuck with a system that is somehow worse than World of Warcraft.

I don't think they went thru extreme lengths, but instead took the path of least resistance since during the betas they already found multiple guilds just using an extra guild opening to form what Anet would later treat Alliances as. Since these community guilds worked they saw it as good enough, let the players figure it out.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Anekto.8391 said:

I am convinced anet was never convinced themselves they would implement anything like WR even after promising it more than 6 ? years ago. And in the end they just slapped some stuff together and called it a day.

To be fair, they were upfront about that. They didn't want to wait till everything else was done since they had a system that needed more data to analyze and the only real way to get that data was to get the matches going and dig into the results. I think they accept as well that initial placements under the WR as seen in all of the world linking is that there is a lot of sorting after new sorts or new relinks so with just single week tests that data is questionable. So you need at least 4 weeks and then you may need to throw out the first couple of weeks of data as just mis-matchups. Sure sorting should equate to generally equal potential in player activity, but you cant factor in players going for more and players going for less nor how players tactics against each other might impact a match. Translation, there is a lot of unknown that you can try to identify and then attribute to the whys of how it turned out but without more data trying to pin those down is tough.

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 hours ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

When a player gets kicked from a guild, there is no message saying WHO kicked the person, so there is no way to track down who's doing what or why,

There actually is in  the roster history. Though I suppose you have to be in the guild to see said message.

Granted the guild system is kinda outdated atm and needs refinement. Same applies to parties. You can't tell why you were kicked because the chat vanishes. Honestly, the social features in this game are probably like 25 years behind. And may not even compare to those from 25 years ago.

It used to even be worse. You could be in a party of 5. And all it took were 2 people to remove the other 3 from the party. Absolutely ridiculous and you had the typical white knights snorting copium explaining why it was a good thing. I guess most games have a cult that shut down all criticism but I think they've done some real long-term damage.

And Guilds are from that era of the game. And even less refined.

It is actually embarrassing in a game touted by many to be one of the friendlier and less toxic communities, to have so little safeguards against toxicity and disruptive activity.  Sometime this company really, really takes its community for granted.

But even so you can still contact someone in game or  Discord or something? That being said, if the guild really hates each other, that alliance isn't going to last and no system can help them. Just a misfortune to have joined them.

Also you can still contacat support to see if they can pair you up with your guild (not necessarily the alliance)

Finally what's really amazing is Anet is totally hands off on all this aka "lalallala can't hear you".  Leaders can kick leaders, for example, and you can imagine what that's about.

So regardless, I do advise people to never put anything of value in any alliance guild made.

Also I think your guild should stand up for you, and leave the alliance if this behavior does not stop. At least any guild worth their salt.  If they can't do that, then tell me, what are they even for?

If not I would simply pull any friends I had into a new guild and leave it. Unfortunately, I've always felt most WvW guilds in this game are amazingly short sighted and do not plan for many or any contingencies and so everyone should as well. I've already left one alliance-- they were decent people, but they just didn't offer what we needed.

But I've always made sure to secure who I want to play with and to not burn too many bridges.  But on the other hand you can't let them push you around either. Because when people do not see a problem, they don't see the need to do anything. And ultimately, putting your eggs all in one basket whether it be a guild, a server, or even this game is not a great idea. 

Edited Thursday at 09:22 PM by ArchonWing.9480

[Caitybee.3614]

6 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

LOL 😆 Someone's living inside a bubble....

I actually agree. I've been guildless for over 2 years because I don't need one. 😛

[Gaiawolf.8261]

17 minutes ago, Caitybee.3614 said:

I actually agree. I've been guildless for over 2 years because I don't need one. 😛

Oh, I didn't mean that, but do what works for you. All the love and power to you. 💜

I just meant that guild drama and problems are a thing in PVE and the game in general, not just for WVW alliances. I've known people who have sunk thousands of hours and gold into guild halls only for leadership shenanigans to kick them out of the guild and lose everything. Including a sick beetle race course.

Sad, really. Don't think it's just a WVW problem.

[SweetPotato.7456]

I got something to say about kicking from guild, this happened to me, but I forgive you all bullies after many years of being unable to forgive and forget, making myself not having fun in WvW. But this had to be known by all.

I joined a wvw guild because that  was the advise given in chat. It was my second day  in the guild, can't remember how long but was a brief time only with that guild, on that fateful day, they said joining teamspeak is useful to hear commander yada yada yada. So look for the address, joined the guild's teamspeak and talk in a stranger environment for the first time, everything was normal, I was in the squad,  i even created a toon especially for playing with the guild, a guardian, I lovingly named Flying Cow, after the trebuchet, however,  i forgot what it was that made me  needed to type in Guild Chat, it is probably asking about guardian build, that is when I realized there was no guild for me to type to, confused, I ask in map chat how come I am not in guild? At which time teamspeak was getting very noise, there where mostly male voices laughing and a female giggle, and there were this guy saying, invite him back, let me kick him, "Can I kick him "female giggling person toon's name" obvisouly flirting going on and more giggling and laughter.  I ask in chat again, and they said, that it was a mistake and that I should accept the invite again, so I did and was immediately kick from the guild AGAIN. As i was asking them why they kick me right away, a friendly whisper came in, "they are laughing at you, don't accept the invite" (not the exact word, becaues it was getting distressful, i was getting panicky, my hand started to shake unable to  type) So I leave it at that. I should have taken a screenshot, but I didn't, it was very hurtful, I uninstalled teamspeak that day, I didn't do anything. But after a while, when the guild post guild recruitment, I would speak up and tell people not to join them, which turns in to years of torture for me in WvW. I was call "kitten" for about a year or 2. 

[Wolfhound.4381]

34 minutes ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

I got something to say about kicking from guild, this happened to me, but I forgive you all bullies after many years of being unable to forgive and forget, making myself not having fun in WvW. But this had to be known by all.

I joined a wvw guild because that  was the advise given in chat. It was my second day  in the guild, can't remember how long but was a brief time only with that guild, on that fateful day, they said joining teamspeak is useful to hear commander yada yada yada. So look for the address, joined the guild's teamspeak and talk in a stranger environment for the first time, everything was normal, I was in the squad,  i even created a toon especially for playing with the guild, a guardian, I lovingly named Flying Cow, after the trebuchet, however,  i forgot what it was that made me  needed to type in Guild Chat, it is probably asking about guardian build, that is when I realized there was no guild for me to type to, confused, I ask in map chat how come I am not in guild? At which time teamspeak was getting very noise, there where mostly male voices laughing and a female giggle, and there were this guy saying, invite him back, let me kick him, "Can I kick him "female giggling person toon's name" obvisouly flirting going on and more giggling and laughter.  I ask in chat again, and they said, that it was a mistake and that I should accept the invite again, so I did and was immediately kick from the guild AGAIN. As i was asking them why they kick me right away, a friendly whisper came in, "they are laughing at you, don't accept the invite" (not the exact word, becaues it was getting distressful, i was getting panicky, my hand started to shake unable to  type) So I leave it at that. I should have taken a screenshot, but I didn't, it was very hurtful, I uninstalled teamspeak that day, I didn't do anything. But after a while, when the guild post guild recruitment, I would speak up and tell people not to join them, which turns in to years of torture for me in WvW. I was call "kitten" for about a year or 2. 

There's no excuse for that. Had something similar happen in a guild I was in once. A commander was doing it to one of our members. The difference is everyone was in discord and it was obvious even the kicked player was having fun. I still put a stop to it as I was an officer and it an abuse of power.

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Sad, really. Don't think it's just a WVW problem.

Drama is a pretty common problem to all kindergarten sandboxes. And schools. And workplaces. And the senate.

Come to think of it, it’s a pretty wide spectrum.