Balance Patch was obvious Necro-hate patch

[Crinn.7864]

@Genesis.5169 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:To be fair, I think the statement that should be made is that Scourge should have never been the Condi Bomber that it was .. and that's not just made up either ... Anet confirmed with the last patch they don't want conditions to be burst damage ...

So let's play nice and not challenge EVERY statement people make with the need for a 'citation' when we all know these things for FACTS that Anet has very plainly given to us in statements they made only very recently shall we?

No what we know is they don't want condition damage bursting, what the other guy said is scourge was meant to be a support role to help Necros get into more positions in the game. Those two things are not equivalent, your so called "facts" are no there just people making things up. Absurd things like that need to be challenged plenty of people on the forums read here an do not post I would rather not have some one spread misinformation because he's salty about a class.

All of the pre pof release dev livestream and commentary focused on scourge's ability to "protect allies"

It is very hard to believe that a spec that was hyped for it's ability to "protect allies" was intended for mass carpet bombing.

[Obtena.7952]

@Genesis.5169 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:To be fair, I think the statement that should be made is that Scourge should have never been the Condi Bomber that it was .. and that's not just made up either ... Anet confirmed with the last patch they don't want conditions to be burst damage ...

So let's play nice and not challenge EVERY statement people make with the need for a 'citation' when we all know these things for FACTS that Anet has very plainly given to us in statements they made only very recently shall we?

No what we know is they don't want condition damage bursting, what the other guy said is scourge was meant to be a support role to help Necros get into more positions in the game. Those two things are not equivalent, your so called "facts" are no there just people making things up. Absurd things like that need to be challenged plenty of people on the forums read here an do not post I would rather not have some one spread misinformation because he's salty about a class.

No, it is indeed a fact that if Scourge was condi bombing, and Anet didn't want Condi's to burst, that logically, they did not intend for Scourge to be a condi bomber. ... they didn't intend for ANY class to be a condi bomber.

I to do not think people should post out of salty rage, but it is true that Anet did not want what Scourge was really good at doing; spiking people with condis.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:@Obtena.7952I believe the challenge is more to those who imply scourge is supposed to be solely a support class and nothing more. i.e. not do damage.

Fair enough .. I do not believe that being a 'something' class means it shouldn't do damage either, otherwise the whole concept of the game wouldn't exist.

[Ivantreil.3092]

Man it's just like reaper all over again, mentioned to be a power dps elite, and ended up as a condi dps/corrupt boon elite.

And now the same thing is happening again, is it the class maybe way too dependant to boon corruption? that no matter what future specs they bring, it will excel at condi corrupt boon just like the previous elites?, is that the future of necros?

Way too much access to it or way too easy application of it?

[Nimon.7840]

I hope not.

Cause corruption and epi is the only thing we have. Ok a little bit of barrier.

But we suck at everything else.

We can only donate might support and that pretty poorly.

We cannot heal properly getting a 1400 heal tick every second is awesome, but ele and guard can do the same thing and still have more healing capabilities. And we cant even maintain it the whole time

We haveno real defenseNo real sustainNo mobilityAnd we cant even spike as hard as other classes (for example mirage oneshotting fulltank necros)

[Anchoku.8142]

IMO, scourge is meant to be a support condi elite. Many players feel like it has to be the best at everything - condi, power, support - but that is unreasonable.

For doing fair dps and offering barriers to help soak boss-level damage, Scourge should be glassier and it is. Scourge has very clear weaknesses and needs more support than core or Reaper.

Think about the changes to Scourge since the beta weekends. Barrier up-time has been increased while condi burst and overall dps has decreased. Balance has been adjusted for a bit more support and less dps. That should tell everyone what the developers intend.

If the combination of dps and support prevent discrimination in grouping, the elite is a success. If not, more tweaks seem likely. My Necro does not need to be OP and meta in all game modes but I would like it to be accepted.

[Kaiser.9873]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@ShiroAero.8096 said:

@mulzi.8273 said:

@ShiroAero.8096 said:Every condition class got "nerfed the same way as scourge. We don't need to attack devs as fast as they touch scourge. Scourge was broken now atleast more bareable in pvp.

condi Mesmer would like to say hello.

ok true that lol but still scourge needed some nerf

Well scourge needed counterplay not "numbers" nerfs. Honnestly the scourge is still as toxic (for the game, for the necromancers themself and for other professions) as he was before since there is still no counterplay to scourge shroud skills. The way they handled condition in this patch wasn't even close to what we should call a "profession's balance patch", It was just a "condition baalance patch".

This patch aimed at redefining conditions into the game, it didn't aim at balancing professions. Thus I find the title of the thread a bit over the top. It could have been a lot worse, the necromancer end up almost unscathed from this patch. Look at the elementalist that think it's the end of the world, look at the revenants that thought that they couldn't be worse than they were before... etc. This wasn't even close to a "necro hate" patch.

Counterplay? Try siccing anything with 1200+ range on a Scourge. 1v1 versus a longbow Ranger is pretty much over before it started if they are at all competent. Try dodging, Running, or Walking around the shade. Scourge is still, even with Sand Swell, terribly locked in place most of a fight, and that place is <900 range most of the time. Trail of anguish with one stab application is not the answer. LF drain on Reaper is horrible so yeah that also seems like necro hate. You want to haze walls? Forget about using your primary AoE to do it; instead try to use marks, which are terribly low damage, or run wells which in scourge take away some pretty important( /s ) utilities.

Scourge is not in a bad place, and yeah, it is definitely still meta, but to imply that Scourge is some kind of super class is not the case either.

[Crinn.7864]

@Kaiser.9873 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@ShiroAero.8096 said:

@mulzi.8273 said:

@ShiroAero.8096 said:Every condition class got "nerfed the same way as scourge. We don't need to attack devs as fast as they touch scourge. Scourge was broken now atleast more bareable in pvp.

condi Mesmer would like to say hello.

ok true that lol but still scourge needed some nerf

Well scourge needed counterplay not "numbers" nerfs. Honnestly the scourge is still as toxic (for the game, for the necromancers themself and for other professions) as he was before since there is still no counterplay to scourge shroud skills. The way they handled condition in this patch wasn't even close to what we should call a "profession's balance patch", It was just a "condition baalance patch".

This patch aimed at redefining conditions into the game, it didn't aim at balancing professions. Thus I find the title of the thread a bit over the top. It could have been a lot worse, the necromancer end up almost unscathed from this patch. Look at the elementalist that think it's the end of the world, look at the revenants that thought that they couldn't be worse than they were before... etc. This wasn't even close to a "necro hate" patch.

Counterplay? Try siccing anything with 1200+ range on a Scourge. 1v1 versus a longbow Ranger is pretty much over before it started if they are at all competent. Try dodging, Running, or Walking around the shade. Scourge is still, even with Sand Swell, terribly locked in place most of a fight, and that place is <900 range most of the time. Trail of anguish with one stab application is not the answer. LF drain on Reaper is horrible so yeah that also seems like necro hate. You want to haze walls? Forget about using your primary AoE to do it; instead try to use marks, which are terribly low damage, or run wells which in scourge take away some pretty important( /s ) utilities.

Scourge is not in a bad place, and yeah, it is definitely still meta, but to imply that Scourge is some kind of super class is not the case either.

You do realize that Scourge can apply it's full damage at 900 range right? Not every class has access to a high damage 1200 range weapon.

For example no Reaper build is capable of winning against a Scourge, since Scourge shuts reaper down to such a degree that Reapers have to leave any fight where a scourge is present.

[Kaiser.9873]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Kaiser.9873 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@ShiroAero.8096 said:

@mulzi.8273 said:

@ShiroAero.8096 said:Every condition class got "nerfed the same way as scourge. We don't need to attack devs as fast as they touch scourge. Scourge was broken now atleast more bareable in pvp.

condi Mesmer would like to say hello.

ok true that lol but still scourge needed some nerf

Well scourge needed counterplay not "numbers" nerfs. Honnestly the scourge is still as toxic (for the game, for the necromancers themself and for other professions) as he was before since there is still no counterplay to scourge shroud skills. The way they handled condition in this patch wasn't even close to what we should call a "profession's balance patch", It was just a "condition baalance patch".

This patch aimed at redefining conditions into the game, it didn't aim at balancing professions. Thus I find the title of the thread a bit over the top. It could have been a lot worse, the necromancer end up almost unscathed from this patch. Look at the elementalist that think it's the end of the world, look at the revenants that thought that they couldn't be worse than they were before... etc. This wasn't even close to a "necro hate" patch.

Counterplay? Try siccing anything with 1200+ range on a Scourge. 1v1 versus a longbow Ranger is pretty much over before it started if they are at all competent. Try dodging, Running, or Walking around the shade. Scourge is still, even with Sand Swell, terribly locked in place most of a fight, and that place is <900 range most of the time. Trail of anguish with one stab application is not the answer. LF drain on Reaper is horrible so yeah that also seems like necro hate. You want to haze walls? Forget about using your primary AoE to do it; instead try to use marks, which are terribly low damage, or run wells which in scourge take away some pretty important( /s ) utilities.

Scourge is not in a bad place, and yeah, it is definitely still meta, but to imply that Scourge is some kind of super class is not the case either.

You do realize that Scourge can apply it's full damage at 900 range right? Not every class has access to a high damage 1200 range weapon.

For example no Reaper build is capable of winning against a Scourge, since Scourge shuts reaper down to such a degree that Reapers have to leave any fight where a scourge is present.

I do realize that. I also realize that Rangers, Elementalists, Deadeye, Warriors, DH, Mesmers, engineers, and especially hammer revs have very nice 1200 range options that eat Scourge for lunch. It doesn't have to be a high damage 1200 range weapon as Scourge are pretty easy to kite.

[Galmac.4680]

Even scourges can kill scourges! :p

[mulzi.8273]

@Crinn.7864 said:

For example no Reaper build is capable of winning against a Scourge, since Scourge shuts reaper down to such a degree that Reapers have to leave any fight where a scourge is present.

There is a reaper build that can take out scourges, but it requires a whole different bunch of traits (and trait line) from the traditional power build. That build also handles condi mesmers easier. However it is a bit more risky against the power thief/shatter mesmer. The key is to think outside the box, and trait your power reaper so it doesn't auto-generate boons (especially might for the perma weakness against scourge corrupt) and to slot in a couple of the auto-transfer traits.

[Crinn.7864]

@mulzi.8273 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

For example no Reaper build is capable of winning against a Scourge, since Scourge shuts reaper down to such a degree that Reapers have to leave any fight where a scourge is present.

There is a reaper build that can take out scourges, but it requires a whole different bunch of traits (and trait line) from the traditional power build. That build also handles condi mesmers easier. However it is a bit more risky against the power thief/shatter mesmer. The key is to think outside the box, and trait your power reaper so it doesn't auto-generate boons (especially might for the perma weakness against scourge corrupt) and to slot in a couple of the auto-transfer traits.

Boonless reaper still loses to Scourge. It ain't the boonrip that kills reaper.

[Raizel.8175]

I kinda have the feeling that the HoT-specializations were bad for PvE since they introduced a rather strong Holy-Trinity-concept into GW2 (Chrono-Tank, Druid-Healer), whereas the PoF-specializations are bad for sPvP due to wrong incentives like Sniper-Builds (Deadeye, LB-Ranger/SB) and professions like Scourge being too dominant since they can literally control points if they want. Also, they punish meele-based combat too harsh, especially due to boon corruption. Kinda totally screws up the "risk and reward"-concept. At least in sPvP Scourge is pretty fun for being as broken as it is and I'm probably a bonafide noob, since I'm only playing GW2 for approx. four months now.

[powerbits.6235]

was a thief hate patch in nov, and again in dec.

[coro.3176]

It's the nature of those instant F skills that are antithetical to skilled play.

Eg. Most classes when fighting a Warrior:

• see incoming Shield Bash
• react with dodge, counterattack
• warrior sees your counterattack, reacts with block
• see warrior block, react with some unblockable attack (eg. Prime Light Beam on engi,Traited Staff Marks on necro)
• warriors sees animation for unblockable attack, cancels block early and reacts with dodge

This is skilled gameplay. It's exciting and it's fair for both parties.

Scourge isn't like this. The aoes are instant and can't be avoided if you're playing a melee or close-mid range class. They corrupt boons (which you can't avoid having with a lot of classes, or if you're playing in a team). It locks out the vast majority of melee builds from being competitive, and it does it without any opportunity to out-play the scourge.

[mulzi.8273]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@mulzi.8273 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

For example no Reaper build is capable of winning against a Scourge, since Scourge shuts reaper down to such a degree that Reapers have to leave any fight where a scourge is present.

There is a reaper build that can take out scourges, but it requires a whole different bunch of traits (and trait line) from the traditional power build. That build also handles condi mesmers easier. However it is a bit more risky against the power thief/shatter mesmer. The key is to think outside the box, and trait your power reaper so it doesn't auto-generate boons (especially might for the perma weakness against scourge corrupt) and to slot in a couple of the auto-transfer traits.

Boonless reaper still loses to Scourge. It ain't the boonrip that kills reaper.

Its the main reason. If you take the auto-might generating traits like AtP, the scrouge will corrupt that to weakness. That reaper would have permanent weakness on him, effectively killing most of his dps before condis overwhelms him.

The build i'm referring to regates permanent weakness, but more importantly, gives the reaper 5-6 methods to transfer condis. Assuming you can pressure the scourge intelligently and quickly, you can overwhelm him with that build, assuming its not a +1 situation of course. If a FB is with him, you mind as well log out of course.

[Nimon.7840]

@coro.3176 said:It's the nature of those instant F skills that are antithetical to skilled play.

Eg. Most classes when fighting a Warrior:

• see incoming Shield Bash
• react with dodge, counterattack
• warrior sees your counterattack, reacts with block
• see warrior block, react with some unblockable attack (eg. Prime Light Beam on engi,Traited Staff Marks on necro)
• warriors sees animation for unblockable attack, cancels block early and reacts with dodge

This is skilled gameplay. It's exciting and it's fair for both parties.

Scourge isn't like this. The aoes are instant and can't be avoided if you're playing a melee or close-mid range class. They corrupt boons (which you can't avoid having with a lot of classes, or if you're playing in a team). It locks out the vast majority of melee builds from being competitive, and it does it without any opportunity to out-play the scourge.

So mesmer having almost only insta casts are balanced?

With so little defense the necro has its good that f skills are insta cast. Else it would be very clumsy to play. Imagine a 3/4 seconds casttime on each f skill. That would make necros more dead than they just are right now

[Zero.3871]

with all the "bugfixes" and nerfes, and bugs that became a feature (obstructed bug) scourge lost more than 50% of its dmg.

just look at mesmer mantra of resolve. all condi cleanse at activation and than 6 condi cleanse for the 2 charges (3 per charge). with 12 sec cooldown the mesmer can every 6 seconds cleanse a minimum of 6 condis. so no condi of scourge will tick longer than 6 seconds.

the last balance patch increased duration and reduced the stacks of condis. but every condi get cleansed after 6 seconds. so every dmg from condis above this treshold from 6 seconds is surely lost. so e.g. to reduce the stacks of condition from 3 to 1 due to dmg reduce of that skill by 66% to 33% of original dmg. most classes have enough condi cleanse to remove every 6-7 seconds the condis. the last balance patch killed condis completely. best backline Dmg Dealer is hammer rev atm. warrior bubbles are way better to boonrip than scourges. there is simply no need for scourges in wvw atm...

[Thustlewhumber.7416]

I switch between hammer rev and power reaper, and I can say that power reaper easily does close to twice the damage of a hammer rev in wvw. You cant use the same builds from launch and expect them to perform the same after patches. Condi clear has always negated condi builds since launch, and most wvw guilds/roamers run heavy condi clear. If you run a build that relies almost solely on conditions, you're not going to be effective.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

This thread is a good example as to why the class specific forums should be ignored when it comes to PvP and people should only take what is said in the actual PvP board seriously.

Players in class specific forums are just completely delusional.

Scourge continues to dominate in ranked and is used every game in ATs. I am in platinum and guess what every single one of my games was like? 2 scourge. Every game. Both teams.

Every.

Single.

Game.

If you can't understand that the class is still a huge problem from that then you are irredeemably dense and there is no hope for you.

Edit: actually it wasn't 2 scourge every game. Almost forgot people in Gold III and higher like to exploit class switching to stack so I actually had a few 5 scourge / even a 6 scourge game. My bad.

[Vagrant.7206]

Man, necros have a serious persecution complex.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@"Vagrant.7206" said:Man, necros have a serious persecution complex.

The saddest part about this whining is if they knew how to play they would realize that scourge was actually buffed last patch.

Increasing condi duration at the expense of stacks is, from a pvp standpoint, actually a big buff. This is because the main thing you want in pvp when running conditions is a good flow of cover conditions in order to make removal less effective. Higher durations make covering easier to maintain while also reducing the effectiveness of resistance ( IE a stack of 2 torment for 10 seconds vs a stack of 4 for 5, guess which is more effective against 5 seconds of resistance? ) . So while the patch slightly reduced the burst DPS, it increased the overall utility and effectiveness of the build to ignore counter tactics.

But of course, these kids don't realize that. They were spamming their F1-F5 and now they see slightly lower numbers and think it means they have been "nerfed".

topkek.

[Ok I Did It.2854]

@Odokuro.5049 said:Scourge was never intended to be the Cond-Bomber 9000 that it was. Originally Scourge was intended to give Necromancers the ability to bring both forms of Support and Group Utility, so that they became more welcomed in various parts of Guild Wars 2.

And yet there not, funny how that worked out,

The nerf bat to nerco was always going to happen, as soon as players wouldn't kill them in 5 seconds they QQd hard on the forums demanding nerfs, and anet delivered, now they are back asking for more nerfs, as the players now cant keep all there boons all the time and its not fair they cant face walk over everyone because that necro is boon stripping,

All the people asking for more nerfs, its funny, I don't see these players in other threads with clearly OP classes, when people are asking for nerfs to them, its has to be balance for all, not just a few.

[Zoltreez.6435]

@Ok I Did It.2854 said:

@Odokuro.5049 said:Scourge was never intended to be the Cond-Bomber 9000 that it was. Originally Scourge was intended to give Necromancers the ability to bring both forms of Support and Group Utility, so that they became more welcomed in various parts of Guild Wars 2.

And yet there not, funny how that worked out,

The nerf bat to nerco was always going to happen, as soon as players wouldn't kill them in 5 seconds they QQd hard on the forums demanding nerfs, and anet delivered, now they are back asking for more nerfs, as the players now cant keep all there boons all the time and its not fair they cant face walk over everyone because that necro is boon stripping,

All the people asking for more nerfs, its funny, I don't see these players in other threads with clearly OP classes, when people are asking for nerfs to them, its has to be balance for all, not just a few.

This is the life of a Necro SINCE RELEASE OF THE GAME .....

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Same old rubbish. Watch the pvp streamers cry about it in the most pathetic way possible, watch the followers feed off it while spouting more of the same - i wish we could 1 shot them like we always have commentary. Such myopic uneducated views that spread like wildfire through knobsville. Pa thetic

[Zero.3871]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:Man, necros have a serious persecution complex.

The saddest part about this whining is if they knew how to play they would realize that scourge was actually buffed last patch.

Increasing condi duration at the expense of stacks is, from a pvp standpoint, actually a big buff. This is because the main thing you want in pvp when running conditions is a good flow of cover conditions in order to make removal less effective. Higher durations make covering easier to maintain while also reducing the effectiveness of resistance ( IE a stack of 2 torment for 10 seconds vs a stack of 4 for 5, guess which is more effective against 5 seconds of resistance? ) . So while the patch slightly reduced the burst DPS, it increased the overall utility and effectiveness of the build to ignore counter tactics.

But of course, these kids don't realize that. They were spamming their F1-F5 and now they see slightly lower numbers and think it means they have been "nerfed".

topkek.

lol, necros get nerfed and people deform the reality to say that was a buff? OKAY THAN PPPLLLZZZ anet, TAKe BACK THE "BUFF". WE WANT the nerf that duration get decreased and stacks get increased, PLZ ANET...