Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Biziut.3594]

4 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I've joined daily runs, every day for an year and a half now, I've probably had like 10 runs total that were not smooth and the group died (most often, once in the entire run).

I don't post it to whine, I post it to laugh at the mentality of "high end pve players". But I guess you need all the help you can get with... hard endgame content.

All help I can get, hah yea turn around words I said all you like if the truth pains you so much.

3 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I'm laughing because I've seen every iteration of "prove that you've done this / you are overgeared for this otherwise you are not getting in" you can think of in WoW.  Gear score, achievements, titles, items, previous guilds, screenshots and so on. Yet the best groups I've ran with were the most chill ones.

Try to spin this as "enjoying the game" and "you don't have to do this" all you want, the LFG requirements are coming from wanting to be done as soon as possible, as easily as possible. No problem with "15K UFE CM ..." or "1000 LI wing X" groups (cause I'm not a pve sweat). But when you see this in IBS strikes or daily fractals it starts getting absurd.

Anyhow this is how this looks to me from "outside". It makes me think of all the guilds going over your build and asking "but why didn't you take the talent that increases your HPS by 0.05% instead of ...". It gives me a really strong feeling of "no thanks, pass on going through all that again".  Seeing how they are adding a trainer mode to raids, doesn't look like I'm alone in that.

The reactions are gold too, makes me want to have nothing to do with your average GW2 pve players even more.

Absurd for someone like you maybe, I for instant enjoy run made, as you said, done as soon as possible and as easly.

2 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Less than 1% of the playerbase actually has more than 15k UFE. The sad truth is that "your average" gw2 player is too bad to get that far. You say you've got no problem with people asking for 15k UFE but you call them PvE sweats. It's not 0,05% difference in dps. Your average gw2 player will do like 5k dps, while someone with 50k UFE might do 50-60k burst. Then 2 - 2,5min fight turns into 5-10min. And sometimes you won't even be able to clear it at all. 
If "the best groups" you've ran with are so chill I dare you to share logs with us 😉

We both know he won't share logs, he just came to whine for ppls enjoying the game in other way than he is, which is quite sad to be honest. Makes me question if He really do full runs for half year as He claims. All bark and no bite. ^^

[Voyant.1327]

On 6/19/2022 at 3:16 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Twice in the past week I have encountered CM groups where one person is trying to organize 5 players for what he believes will be a "more efficient DPS clear" by suggesting that players alter build structures, traits, skills, even weapons, or even someone's class....

If the people don't swap and do exactly as the elite theory-craft suggests, they get vote kicked.

 

Aye, a lot of this. Joined an Open World bounty yesterday and had people telling me what build to run lol. Its the absolute worst part of this community is they think its their right to tell other players how to play bc "snowcrows said."

Its arrogant and closed minded to assume everyone wants to play the game you do. I don't expect everyone to want to play how I want, yet whenever I ask "anyone looking to underman content?" Its "you know you can do that faster if..." Or if I say "I want to try building my character" Its "Thats stupid and a waste of resources just use X website" 

Like its 100% ok if you prefer a playstyle & party composition, its not ok if you hate on every alternative out there bc of the Meta.

 

Its just in general most people aren't accepting of others who do things differently, its just a human flaw. The community could use to understand that, but the mob tends to just isolate and eviscerate people instead bc anything other their pov is wrong. 

[Biziut.3594]

50 minutes ago, Voyant.1327 said:

Aye, a lot of this. Joined an Open World bounty yesterday and had people telling me what build to run lol. Its the absolute worst part of this community is they think its their right to tell other players how to play bc "snowcrows said."

Its arrogant and closed minded to assume everyone wants to play the game you do. I don't expect everyone to want to play how I want, yet whenever I ask "anyone looking to underman content?" Its "you know you can do that faster if..." Or if I say "I want to try building my character" Its "Thats stupid and a waste of resources just use X website" 

Like its 100% ok if you prefer a playstyle & party composition, its not ok if you hate on every alternative out there bc of the Meta.

 

Its just in general most people aren't accepting of others who do things differently, its just a human flaw. The community could use to understand that, but the mob tends to just isolate and eviscerate people instead bc anything other their pov is wrong. 

Could you elaborate further on this bounty run of yours? Was it some easy daily boss that everyone can solo or was it squad for some legendary for collection. If it was the latter than i totally understand why squad would encourage meta build. Thay want to have the highest chance of success while reducing as much as possible players that only would upscale event. If it was some easy boss than it sure is wierd, but why you care it's not like they can kick you from open map in any of this two scenarios, and even better you can always block them if they are being mean and not just nice enough to give gaming advice.

As for the guy you quoted, if I join someones group I play by their rules, if i don't like the rules, I do not join and I am eighter looking for other more suitable group or I create my own. It's like society works, it's not a flaw, you don't have to fit everywhere and no one expext you to. As you said you want to play whatever you want, rightfully so, but don't expect you will fit everywhere with the shape you cut yourself into.

 

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Biziut.3594 said:

Could you elaborate further on this bounty run of yours? Was it some easy daily boss that everyone can solo or was it squad for some legendary for collection. If it was the latter than i totally understand why squad would encourage meta build. Thay want to have the highest chance of success while reducing as much as possible players that only would upscale event. If it was some easy boss than it sure is wierd, but why you care it's not like they can kick you from open map in any of this two scenarios, and even better you can always block them if they are being mean and not just nice enough to give gaming advice.

As for the guy you quoted, if I join someones group I play by their rules, if i don't like the rules, I do not join and I am eighter looking for other more suitable group or I create my own. It's like society works, it's not a flaw, you don't have to fit everywhere and no one expext you to. As you said you want to play whatever you want, rightfully so, but don't expect you will fit everywhere with the shape you cut yourself into.

What's important to note is the difference between:

1. Running a mace/mace hammer Warrior who is wearing cleric gear with def/disc/tactics
2. Running something that is almost identical to a meta that is only different by its rune selection and one utility skill.

On a sliding scale of 10 where 1 is bad and 10 is good, people who claim all metas are 10s and anything else is a 1, are oversimplifying things. In truth, there are builds out there functioning as 9s or 8s and really isn't worth busting someone's balls over unless your group is specifically aiming at streaming an all time speed clear record.

Many times I have tweaked metas from sites like snowcrows so that they work better in T4s/CMs. Those posted builds are truthfully, not always optimal. They also entirely miss certain build structures that possess very strong roles, because those metas are only based on one group of people's idea of "how to run a party or squad".

For example: Condition Daredevil as listed on snowcrows. They suggest only ever using dagger/dagger and don't even list a 2nd weapon set. This is quaint & naive that whoever posted that build never noticed what you can do with that build structure by equipping a shortbow on 2nd weapon set. If that build uses a shortbow, it becomes the strongest mob control in the game with Choking Gas. If it puts an Absorption sigil on the shortbow, it steals 3 boons from every target it interrupts with every Choke Gas and that sigil has no CD. This build using a shortbow almost entirely replaces the need for a healer because it completely 100% shuts down all mob activity and the party never gets hit by anything. It also keeps any & all boons generated to creatures from fractal instabilities, wiped & removed. Those boons removed also apply vs. bosses in conjunction with boons removed from Swipe. Nothing gets to have boons if this build is in the party and mobs don't get to take actions at all. The build also functions as a 39k benchmark when it wants to actually DPS rather than play mob control. This build can also solo any content in the game very easily due to its ability to control mobs, outside of things that require multiple players for mechanics, such as 4 players standing on 4 panels or obviously raid boss mechanics. Strange that this Daredevil build ultimate mob control boon removal yolo God variant isn't even listed and it is definitely par for par one of the strongest builds in the game at everything.

My point being is: Yeah sure, if your buddy is running absolute garbage, someone needs to point it out to him. But people shouldn't be so quick to judge & condemn things just because it isn't currently listed as a meta on a website. Sometimes people are running things in a particular content that is actually much stronger than listed meta. Or perhaps someone is running something sort of weird because they are a very experienced player who wants to run a theme character, like a Flame Legion charr toon who uses Fire Sigil over Sigil of Force. Sometimes yet, a person may sacrifice a single utility to lower their DPS by 2% so they can bring a single personal stun break to make sure they can stay alive. Is it worth busting their balls over? I mean seriously, is it? If you're doing casual nightly T4s and not speed run clears, I don't think it is.

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Biziut.3594]

12 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

What's important to note is the difference between:

1. Running a mace/mace hammer Warrior who is wearing cleric gear with def/disc/tactics
2. Running something that is almost identical to a meta that is only different by its rune selection and one utility skill.

On a sliding scale of 10 where 1 is bad and 10 is good, people who claim all metas are 10s and anything else is a 1, are oversimplifying things. In truth, there are builds out there functioning as 9s or 8s and really isn't worth busting someone's balls over unless your group is specifically aiming at streaming an all time speed clear record.

Many times I have tweaked metas from sites like snowcrows so that they work better in T4s/CMs. Those posted builds are truthfully, not always optimal. They also entirely miss certain build structures that possess very strong roles, because those metas are only based on one group of people's idea of "how to run a party or squad".

For example: Condition Daredevil as listed on snowcrows. They suggest only ever using dagger/dagger and don't even list a 2nd weapon set. This is quaint & naive that whoever posted that build never noticed what you can do with that build structure by equipping a shortbow on 2nd weapon set. If that build uses a shortbow, it becomes the strongest mob control in the game with Choking Gas. If it puts an Absorption sigil on the shortbow, it steals 3 boons from every target it interrupts with every Choke Gas and that sigil has no CD. This build using a shortbow almost entirely replaces the need for a healer because it completely 100% shuts down all mob activity and the party never gets hit by anything. It also keeps any & all boons generated to creatures from fractal instabilities, wiped & removed. Those boons removed also apply vs. bosses in conjunction with boons removed from Swipe. Nothing gets to have boons if this build is in the party and mobs don't get to take actions at all. The build also functions as a 39k benchmark when it wants to actually DPS rather than play mob control. This build can also solo any content in the game very easily due to its ability to control mobs, outside of things that require multiple players for mechanics, such as 4 players standing on 4 panels or obviously raid boss mechanics. Strange that this Daredevil build ultimate mob control boon removal yolo God variant isn't even listed and it is definitely par for par one of the strongest builds in the game at everything.

My point being is: Yeah sure, if your buddy is running absolute garbage, someone needs to point it out to him. But people shouldn't be so quick to judge & condemn things just because it isn't currently listed as a meta on a website. Sometimes people are running things in a particular content that is actually much stronger than listed meta. Or perhaps someone is running something sort of weird because they are a very experienced player who wants to run a theme character, like a Flame Legion charr toon who uses Fire Sigil over Sigil of Force. Sometimes yet, a person may sacrifice a single utility to lower their DPS by 2% so they can bring a single personal stun break to make sure they can stay alive. Is it worth busting their balls over? I mean seriously, is it? If you're doing casual nightly T4s and not speed run clears, I don't think it is.

 

Agree with tweaking builds and such coz I do it myself. Also in my whole GW2 career, no one ever was kicked from run for not doing this 2% dps. (you got kicked only if alac is doing more dps than you, at least in my runs). You nailed the diffrence yourself, if someone is on scale 1-5 and joins ppls that require 9-10 than obviously he gonna get kicked, and this ppls have a full right to do it since he's not doing what the group required. 

Also I am fully aware of groups that require everyone to be always at the 10. As much as I avoid this kind of groups, I'am also aware that they have a right to play as they want, and nighter me nor you nor anyone else have right to force them to play other way, nor spiting them on the forum, only becouse they kicked you. It may not be worth busting balls for you, for them it maybe is, even if as you say, it often work worse than tweaked builds, but it's their LFG and their balls so they have a right to do so, just as much as you have right to create your own LFG with any requirements (or none of them) you imagine.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 minutes ago, Biziut.3594 said:

Agree with tweaking builds and such coz I do it myself. Also in my whole GW2 career, no one ever was kicked from run for not doing this 2% dps. (you got kicked only if alac is doing more dps than you, at least in my runs). You nailed the diffrence yourself, if someone is on scale 1-5 and joins ppls that require 9-10 than obviously he gonna get kicked, and this ppls have a full right to do it since he's not doing what the group required. 

Also I am fully aware of groups that require everyone to be always at the 10. As much as I avoid this kind of groups, I'am also aware that they have a right to play as they want, and nighter me nor you nor anyone else have right to force them to play other way, nor spiting them on the forum, only becouse they kicked you. It may not be worth busting balls for you, for them it maybe is, even if as you say, it often work worse than tweaked builds, but it's their LFG and their balls so they have a right to do so, just as much as you have right to create your own LFG with any requirements (or none of them) you imagine.

Yeah I gotcha, but a couple things:

1. It's not that they notice your dealing 2% less DPS. It's that they see someone is missing 1 utility from the normal meta they are used to seeing. Then they freak out and vote kick someone and wait another 5 minutes for someone to join who is running the copy/paste meta. The wait time while doing this kind of stuff is silly. First of all, they have no idea if the 2nd player is even actually mechanically as good as the first was. Second of all, the extra 1% 2% DPS that the second guy potentially has, will not make up for the extra 5+ minute wait to get started.
2. Of course everyone has the right to play how they want. I'm simply pointing out the difference between using this freedom rationally and using it irrationally if not illogically. The Condi Daredevil with Shortbow, again as example. I would join fractal groups with this build and just about half the time people would instantly vote kick it because they imagined it wouldn't be an adequate DPS, in accordance to what a DPS meter would show. However, what they aren't understanding is that when a build is locking down 100% control on all mobs, it allows the party to never have to spend animation time on healing or pretty much anything defensive at all, even dodge rolls. This allows the party nearly 100% uptime of nothing but DPS animation skills, which is an enormous enhancement to their actual "Damage Per Second". But this is not reflected in a DPS meter layover. A DPS layover shows the Daredevil dealing adequate DPS to bosses but seemingly inadequate DPS to mobs, and in no way reflects that the other party member's DPS being so high is directly linked to the Daredevil's level of control lockdown. Lo & behold, the Daredevil though, often is vote kicked, when in reality it is bringing just as much DPS to the party collective as any other DPS build, sometimes more, dependng on the comp.

Of course people have the right to play how they want. But this means everyone, not just the guy who made the LFG. Ultimately it boils down to the collective opinion of the party, who is vote kicked and who isn't.

My point being is that sometimes people think they are being real smart & elite when in reality they are just being dumb & bad.

That's all I was trying to say & point out.

[Biziut.3594]

23 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah I gotcha, but a couple things:

1. It's not that they notice your dealing 2% less DPS. It's that they see someone is missing 1 utility from the normal meta they are used to seeing. Then they freak out and vote kick someone and wait another 5 minutes for someone to join who is running the copy/paste meta. The wait time while doing this kind of stuff is silly. First of all, they have no idea if the 2nd player is even actually mechanically as good as the first was. Second of all, the extra 1% 2% DPS that the second guy potentially has, will not make up for the extra 5+ minute wait to get started.
2. Of course everyone has the right to play how they want. I'm simply pointing out the difference between using this freedom rationally and using it irrationally if not illogically. The Condi Daredevil with Shortbow, again as example. I would join fractal groups with this build and just about half the time people would instantly vote kick it because they imagined it wouldn't be an adequate DPS, in accordance to what a DPS meter would show. However, what they aren't understanding is that when a build is locking down 100% control on all mobs, it allows the party to never have to spend animation time on healing or pretty much anything defensive at all, even dodge rolls. This allows the party nearly 100% uptime of nothing but DPS animation skills, which is an enormous enhancement to their actual "Damage Per Second". But this is not reflected in a DPS meter layover. A DPS layover shows the Daredevil dealing adequate DPS to bosses but seemingly inadequate DPS to mobs, and in no way reflects that the other party member's DPS being so high is directly linked to the Daredevil's level of control lockdown. Lo & behold, the Daredevil though, often is vote kicked, when in reality it is bringing just as much DPS to the party collective as any other DPS build, sometimes more, dependng on the comp.

Of course people have the right to play how they want. But this means everyone, not just the guy who made the LFG. Ultimately it boils down to the collective opinion of the party, who is vote kicked and who isn't.

My point being is that sometimes people think they are being real smart & elite when in reality they are just being dumb & bad.

That's all I was trying to say & point out.

I got your point. Actually it is very accurate since I play thief exclusivly and considered myself a great player, until one day, a thief with short bow and staff (dunno if it was some other build or he did his rota perfectly), He totally outclassed me and our group in terms of dps, and he didn't even had fractal god like all the others, except me.

Why are you wasting your time joining "stupid" ppls than. You deserve better, so eighter make LFG of normal players like you or if you have to for some reason join "hurr durr White Birds build meta 10/10 only" than make them a day and take this second set of daggers, or staff or pistol or whatever, they are not bad builds, and even if as you say you will do it few seconds slower you will still make it, you won't be kicked, you won't have to look for another group, you won't get stressed out and everyone's gonna gonna live happyly ever after. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

19 minutes ago, Biziut.3594 said:

I got your point. Actually it is very accurate since I play thief exclusivly and considered myself a great player, until one day, a thief with short bow and staff (dunno if it was some other build or he did his rota perfectly), He totally outclassed me and our group in terms of dps, and he didn't even had fractal god like all the others, except me.

Why are you wasting your time joining "stupid" ppls than. You deserve better, so eighter make LFG of normal players like you or if you have to for some reason join "hurr durr White Birds build meta 10/10 only" than make them a day and take this second set of daggers, or staff or pistol or whatever, they are not bad builds, and even if as you say you will do it few seconds slower you will still make it, you won't be kicked, you won't have to look for another group, you won't get stressed out and everyone's gonna gonna live happyly ever after. 

Well, if my static guys are on, then booya. We can run a God tier speed clear. That's great.

If no one is online, I don't really want to wait around to do CMs and certainly not normal T4s, because this content is honestly kind of easy at this point in 2022. So typically I just join the first party I see in the LFG, ask them what they want me to do, log into that character/build, and run the fractals. I really do not like waiting around, it bores the hell out of me. If it's for truly difficult content, waiting around to make a good comp is fine. But when it's for something that I could solo outside of mechanics that require a party to complete, like the panel room in molten, it just kind of feels like: "OK let's go boys. We don't need a healer. We don't need an imagined perfect meta setup. All we need is players who know mechanics. I have about 30 minutes before I want to eat a pizza & watch a movie so let's go." I'd rather not spend the extra 10-15 minutes for perfect party formation when that means I am standing in a lobby doing nothing. In all seriousness, I would rather play with a mediocre or even bad group that adds 10-15 minutes onto my clear time, where that 10-15 minutes is spent doing something like attempting to carry or teach new players. I honestly enjoy the challenge, and it makes the extra 10-15 minutes that night actually stimulating instead of boring standing in a lobby. Also important to note that after years and years of doing this, completing CMs with massively efficient perfect play is actually boring after awhile. After awhile, a veteran seeks challenge again, like taking the time that night to train new players who want to be involved in CM play.

Again, I'm not opposed to great static groups who can perform perfect play speed clears. It's just that these guys aren't always online to assemble every night. What I described here is how I still find fun & challenge in the game when they are not online.

What I described about the discrimination against say that Condi Daredevil control build, bugs me to no end because the players who judge you who won't even give that build a chance, are usually less than half as experienced as you are. It's annoying because sometimes I want to play weird builds like that because I have been doing this almost every night for nearly a decade, and I get tired of playing the same builds and only those builds.

[Biziut.3594]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Well, if my static guys are on, then booya. We can run a God tier speed clear. That's great.

If no one is online, I don't really want to wait around to do CMs and certainly not normal T4s, because this content is honestly kind of easy at this point in 2022. So typically I just join the first party I see in the LFG, ask them what they want me to do, log into that character/build, and run the fractals. I really do not like waiting around, it bores the hell out of me. If it's for truly difficult content, waiting around to make a good comp is fine. But when it's for something that I could solo outside of mechanics that require a party to complete, like the panel room in molten, it just kind of feels like: "OK let's go boys. We don't need a healer. We don't need an imagined perfect meta setup. All we need is players who know mechanics. I have about 30 minutes before I want to eat a pizza & watch a movie so let's go." I'd rather not spend the extra 10-15 minutes for perfect party formation when that means I am standing in a lobby doing nothing. In all seriousness, I would rather play with a mediocre or even bad group that adds 10-15 minutes onto my clear time, where that 10-15 minutes is spent doing something like attempting to carry or teach new players. I honestly enjoy the challenge, and it makes the extra 10-15 minutes that night actually stimulating instead of boring standing in a lobby. Also important to note that after years and years of doing this, completing CMs with massively efficient perfect play is actually boring after awhile. After awhile, a veteran seeks challenge again, like taking the time that night to train new players who want to be involved in CM play.

Again, I'm not opposed to great static groups who can perform perfect play speed clears. It's just that these guys aren't always online to assemble every night. What I described here is how I still find fun & challenge in the game when they are not online.

What I described about the discrimination against say that Condi Daredevil control build, bugs me to no end because the players who judge you who won't even give that build a chance, are usually less than half as experienced as you are. It's annoying because sometimes I want to play weird builds like that because I have been doing this almost every night for nearly a decade, and I get tired of playing the same builds and only those builds.

I get you, and also should 100% of the playerbase, since it's kind of obvious that everyone would like to always have a perfect run, and by perfect I mean stuff you described, for some perfect run will be one with struggles but also with ability to let new ppls learn, for others it will be run made as fast as possible, sometimes you will have desite for this, other day for that, and for another day something entirely diffrent. But we are all just peoples and we may have diffrent desires that often collide with each other, so perfect setup for learning, testing, meta run ect. can eighter take 1sec or 15mins depending on what ppls want at that moment. The same goes for expirience, some may think that waiting this 15mins for full meta will safe time, thats fine, even if wrong, you can eighter talk to them and try to change his mind or there is always this awesome, beautiful thing, called "moving on" (Tis what I would do at least). Life is chaos, everyone wants perfect life in their own way, but most of us will never get it, same goes for GW2 runs, sometimes you will save your 15 mins, sometimes even 20 and sometimes none. 

As for discrimination, but real discrimination coz I don't really think joining a full meta run that expect you to play pale pigeons build, even if they are wrong, can be count as discrimination. For example I joined twice runs called like CM's + T4 x kp, DPS/Heal/Alac (it was after 2 months Observatory fractal release) and i was kicked only becouse i was a thief. And i had all kp's they required earned by this thief. If they placed note in LFG like "No thieves" than ok, but no instead they got thieves inside their groups and started insulting them, coz everyone should know that thief is not perfect on one boss inside this 3-boss fractal. Did I came to rant on forum becouse of it? Yes, and got a great advice, Screen/Report/Block/Move on/Have fun.

[Cindaria.6379]

And that elitism is the reason people dont do T4 although it is not much harder than t3 or go on raiding. Every wing should have the easy mode to raid it completely without that annoying meta drones. Yesterday I had a very nice run in W2 with newbies. we cleared it although it took 3,5 hrs learning. Its doable. Meta drones are that impatient, they are always the first one leaving the group. 🙄

[Biziut.3594]

35 minutes ago, Cindaria.6379 said:

And that elitism is the reason people dont do T4 although it is not much harder than t3 or go on raiding. Every wing should have the easy mode to raid it completely without that annoying meta drones. Yesterday I had a very nice run in W2 with newbies. we cleared it although it took 3,5 hrs learning. Its doable. Meta drones are that impatient, they are always the first one leaving the group. 🙄

But you do realise that not everyone heve the time nor want to sit 3,5 hours on one raid wing while he can clear it in 30 minutes? Good for you if you enjoyed your run, but don't expect everyone to have saint patience and spend half of working shift worth of time only becouse Lady Cindaria want it.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Cindaria.6379 said:

And that elitism is the reason people dont do T4 although it is not much harder than t3 or go on raiding. Every wing should have the easy mode to raid it completely without that annoying meta drones. Yesterday I had a very nice run in W2 with newbies. we cleared it although it took 3,5 hrs learning. Its doable. Meta drones are that impatient, they are always the first one leaving the group. 🙄

Yes, we've all had those 2-3 hour trainings. Some players have them regularly, when they are running TRAININGS.

Please tell me how you feel about running those 3.5 hour trainings regularly without your consent once you've expanded your sub 30 raid tokens to, oh I don't know, a few thousand? Actually how about just beyond 500 which is the sweet spot between running raids for some time but before actually finishing up the 750 for all 3 armors (a huge drop out point for many players).

You come and judge all high and mighty when you have spent not even a fraction of time on this content compared to others. How about you first put in a few thousand hours in training new players, running raids regularly and organizing raid squads and if you are THEN still singing that same tune, then congratulations, you are where some veteran raid trainers are at now.

I can understand players who dislike raids. I might disagree with them but not every one has to enjoy the same things. What I absolutely disagree with is this unfounded judgemental attitude which is absolutely unjustified when there are large parts of this community welcoming players, running raids, providing guides, etc. only to be spat on by some person with an agenda who has done basically nothing to help others so far in this regard.

If a player wants to run 3.5 hours on training another player, good for them. That is a CHOICE everyone gets to make and you don't get to make that choice for them.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Cindaria.6379]

4 hours ago, Biziut.3594 said:

But you do realise that not everyone heve the time nor want to sit 3,5 hours on one raid wing

You got your experienced section in the LFG. But funnily, I hear all raiders whining that the LFG was dead. Where are you? You are separated better from the newbies and that's not good at all? 🤷‍♀️

[Linken.6345]

32 minutes ago, Cindaria.6379 said:

You got your experienced section in the LFG. But funnily, I hear all raiders whining that the LFG was dead. Where are you? You are separated better from the newbies and that's not good at all? 🤷‍♀️

Yea that was implemented this latest patch 6 days ago and before that  noone ever tried  sneak into those squads at all. .

Edit

Yes it do seem that raids lfg are even less now after the latest balance attempt.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Linken.6345

[Biziut.3594]

12 hours ago, Cindaria.6379 said:

You got your experienced section in the LFG. But funnily, I hear all raiders whining that the LFG was dead. Where are you? You are separated better from the newbies and that's not good at all? 🤷‍♀️

Oh my, "you got", "all raiders", "separation". What makes you think I even am a raider. Maybe i just do open world or pvp, but since i have diffrent opinion to our Lady than I definitly must be one of this toxic raiders. There is no middle ground with you isn't it, no place for reason or discussion, only your great battle between all toxic evil raiders and Saint Enlighted Cindaria. Well heres some hard truth, most raiders are normal easygoing ppls and You are just as toxic as the ppls you fighting against. You became what you swore to destroy, Anakin.

Cyninja already elaborated thoughts i was thinking so please take what she wrote to you to the heart, and learn that not everyone is so crystal clear as you, as for elitism, discrimination and such, i had a nice and CIVIL discussion with Trevor (author of the topic) just above your first post, so take a look, learn something and for God sake calm down, It's only a game and you are treating it like some holy crusade against some group of players that dare to have other priorities in life than You.

P.S. Judging from what you said, that T4 fractals are almost the same in difficulty as Raids, and as inaccesible, and also seeing your KP's, (one W2 clear and one or two escort). I am quite surprised you were able to kill a training golem, let alone Matthias. You never even started other wings I presume, and even if you did trainings you should see after not getting a kill, that they are not as easy as t4, and some players want to clear all 7 + daily fractals + strikes + other stuff + IRL and just don't have time for more shots on training than your "few fails". If i were you I would be glad that some exp player decided to glide down from the heavens of pro meta raiding and decided to help you out and gave you few advices, instead of sluring him on forum only becouse he dared not to share more of HIS precious time with you.❤️ 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Biziut.3594

[Vidit.7108]

I mostly stay out of CM Fractals. In the times that I have done them, criticism happens after a wipe.  Groups can get demanding because the content is very hard, the wait for a new player is better to them than the stress of trying and failing over and over. That said I can't say much about them.

T4s on the other hand I do almost daily. I've had period of time away from fractals but I've stayed with them through changes to class balance over the years. The current version of the "meta", imo has seen decreasing toxicity and elitism in T4 since firebrand-alac ren became standard. People don't care or focus much on what the dps players are doing, just don't get yourself killed. Presently, just about any alacrity provider performs as well as any other if paired with a fireband, and most quickness pair well with mechanist (sort of). The boon-healer standardization, common to raids, might seem frustrating to people that want to play whatever weird thing they want. Especially those that could and did bring whatever to T1 or T2 and still clear in a timely manner. But generally, it's been a good thing that support builds became widespread in T4, player stress notably dropped.

Players would rage quit when mistakes would happen, T4 clear times were obnoxious, and there was less willingness to take less experienced players along.  Certain elite specs might have even got kicked 4 or 5 years ago upon joining the group. LFG descriptions used to demand you bring food, now you just need potions but that's pretty understandable given what they do for you. Even then, you only get reminded to use them, kicking is rare though sometimes as the healer I wish a vote kick would happen. In recent times, I've had some unpleasant runs but players stayed nice and didn't turn on each other like they used to. Build critique was not usually angry, as it might have been years ago.

The same can not be said about T3, which is a garbage fire. But that's different discussion.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

9 hours ago, Biziut.3594 said:

Cyninja already elaborated thoughts i was thinking so please take what she wrote to you to the heart, and learn that not everyone is so crystal clear as you, as for elitism, discrimination and such, i had a nice and CIVIL discussion with Trevor (author of the topic) just above your first post, so take a look, learn something and for God sake calm down, It's only a game and you are treating it like some holy crusade against some group of players that dare to have other priorities in life than You.

Yeah, I noticed that many of the people who've posted in this topic never noticed that my statements about elitism were all in relation to when it wastes more time than it saves. My statements did not say that elitism was bad in general. People need to understand that sometimes elitism is necessary.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Biziut.3594]

Elitism and such has always been a topic that stirs many emotions on this forum, what ppls fail to see that there are always two sides of the coin, elitists exist, but they also help community improve to overcome a challange, to strife for something better, like White Pigeons or other guilds that provide base builds you can mix around. On the other hand there are white knights, clinging to the most uneffective trait/stat/weapon/skill combination, trying to do high end content and getting mad becouse of fails at everyone beside themselves.

I do not deny existance of toxic elitists that (as we were talking) will trash talk you for not alweys being at 10/10, but they are just a minority, very loud minority that gives raiders a bad name but still minority. After all we humans are build in such way that we always remember this bad memories better than the good ones.

The point is to find a balance, if I am soloing things or play open world in general, I love to immerse myself and play what i like best (S/P Thief, how much I would love you to be meta ❤️ ), but in high end content, I expect myself to be as professional as i can, coz not only mine success depends on it but also the success of the whole team that strife for the same goal, so I swallow my pride and want for playing S/P shadow arts and for that moment I am undusting my staff, dagger or scepter. There is always a room for some tweaks (especially ones that helps a team) like you mentioned before.

Inclusivness, freedom, perfect balance, these are nice ideals, but just as other ideals they are true only in the world of ideals.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Biziut.3594

[Linken.6345]

7 minutes ago, Biziut.3594 said:

Elitism and such has always been a topic that stirs many emotions on this forum, what ppls fail to see that there are always two sides of the coin, elitists exist, but they also help community improve to overcome a challange, to strife for something better, like White Pigeons or other guilds that provide base builds you can mix around. On the other hand there are white knights, clinging to the most uneffective trait/stat/weapon/skill combination, trying to do high end content and getting mad becouse of fails at everyone beside themselves.

I do not deny existance of toxic elitists that (as we were talking) will trash talk you for not alweys being at 10/10, but they are just a minority, very loud minority that gives raiders a bad name but still minority. After all we humans are build in such way that we always remember this bad memories better than the good ones.

The point is to find a balance, if I am soloing things or play open world in general, I love to immerse myself and play what i like best (S/P Thief, how much I would love you to be meta ❤️ ), but in high end content, I expect myself to be as professional as i can, coz not only mine success depends on it but also the success of the whole team that strife for the same goal, so I swallow my pride and want for playing S/W shadow arts and for that moment I am undusting my staff, dagger or scepter. There is always a room for some tweaks (especially ones that helps a team) like you mentioned before.

Inclusivness, freedom, perfect balance, these are nice ideals, but just as other ideals they are true only in the world of ideals.

You  mean S/D  or S/P since thief dont have warhorn.

[Biziut.3594]

4 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

You  mean S/D  or S/P since thief dont have warhorn.

Correct, meant Sword/Pistol, probably a missclick, thanks!

[Shivan.9438]

Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals.

"Arah, P3 - 9500 AP min req. No Necros." 

 

Elitism will always rear it's ugly head until developers start hiring or at least consult and listen to munchkins/murder-hobo's before implementing content. 

We have things called boons. Boons give extra damage or healing. We have runes, runes give bonuses to those boons. And not one soul at Anet had the thought or foresight to see "Some players are going to min/max this, we might want to hold up and see how these builds play out then adjust as we go along." Not let a build dominate for a year and keep cranking out content that hasn't been put through the ringer, like Fracs.

 

[Linken.6345]

5 minutes ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals.

"Arah, P3 - 9500 AP min req. No Necros." 

 

Elitism will always rear it's ugly head until developers start hiring or at least consult and listen to munchkins/murder-hobo's before implementing content. 

We have things called boons. Boons give extra damage or healing. We have runes, runes give bonuses to those boons. And not one soul at Anet had the thought or foresight to see "Some players are going to min/max this, we might want to hold up and see how these builds play out then adjust as we go along." Not let a build dominate for a year and keep cranking out content that hasn't been put through the ringer, like Fracs.

 

You forgot or ranger in that lfg message.

[mythical.6315]

3 hours ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals.

"Arah, P3 - 9500 AP min req. No Necros." 

 

Elitism will always rear it's ugly head until developers start hiring or at least consult and listen to munchkins/murder-hobo's before implementing content. 

We have things called boons. Boons give extra damage or healing. We have runes, runes give bonuses to those boons. And not one soul at Anet had the thought or foresight to see "Some players are going to min/max this, we might want to hold up and see how these builds play out then adjust as we go along." Not let a build dominate for a year and keep cranking out content that hasn't been put through the ringer, like Fracs.

 

You forget that elitism exists in all games and it’s practically impossible to eliminate it or even reduce it to the point that you don’t see it.  Toxic players, who feel that all players should play like them, also exist in all games. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Shivan.9438]

7 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

You forgot or ranger in that lfg message.

Lmao, yeah.

[Voyant.1327]

On 7/2/2022 at 5:25 AM, Biziut.3594 said:

Could you elaborate further on this bounty run of yours? Was it some easy daily boss that everyone can solo or was it squad for some legendary for collection. If it was the latter than i totally understand why squad would encourage meta build. Thay want to have the highest chance of success while reducing as much as possible players that only would upscale event. If it was some easy boss than it sure is wierd, but why you care it's not like they can kick you from open map in any of this two scenarios, and even better you can always block them if they are being mean and not just nice enough to give gaming advice.

As for the guy you quoted, if I join someones group I play by their rules, if i don't like the rules, I do not join and I am eighter looking for other more suitable group or I create my own. It's like society works, it's not a flaw, you don't have to fit everywhere and no one expext you to. As you said you want to play whatever you want, rightfully so, but don't expect you will fit everywhere with the shape you cut yourself into.

 

 

 

Here we go again "would you mind telling me what kind of bounty run" it doesn't matter. No one, not you, not me, not the next guy has any right to go "hey you play this way." If a civil discussion is had or something is requested, sure. That is not what the majority of players do here. There are countless threads on the subject of this problem and how its suffocating enjoyment.

No one wants to log into a game to have a bunch of people tell them how they should play it. Worst is it so not necessary 90% of the time.

No one is saying you can't build groups how you want to, its simply saying being suffocating elitists who determine they're right on everything without even a conversation bc of a meta website is wrong.

You, me, or anyone else has no right to bully people to playing the way we believe is best. And yes it is bullying people into doing things they don't want to so they can be a part of a social activity. It's just the majority seems to have convinced each other this kind of intolerance is tolerated. Any justification of that is simply denial of the problem or an inability to see it, which it can be hard to see outside of a perspective that's been established I can sympathize with that. Google "Elitism in GW2" you'll find plenty of people being put down bc they don't play how they're "supposed to"

You can have a different view, but justifying the rude & intolerant behavior of a toxic aspect of the community should never be allowed. 

Edit: Prime example, I've had my build for a month or so, I put out about 2-10k more dps on average while also providing healing vs the snowcrows bench mark. I was vote kicked numerous times by groups bc I didn't want to use a SC build after being told I should (not asked, not discussed), the snowcrows recommendation is now 90% of my build and still doesn't provide the boons. Essentially I was pushed out because the Virtuoso snowcrows guy wasn't faster then me figuring out the ideal build, but efficiency! Community responses are always more toxicity "post your build.","post your dps", "what no that can't be right", "I don't believe you unless you meticulously step by step show me how." etc. Simply bc I did things my own way not how everyone else wanted. Why would anyone want to contribute or be a part of that? 

Also just saw your reply about majority/minority.... And I would say this is the first MMO I've encountered more toxicity in PvE then PvP, Its subjective whether its the majority or minority as its relative to experience, but I've definitely seen more elitism then not in the community. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Voyant.1327
Clarity and preemptively edited to avoid possible deflection angles.