Shattering the Status Quo

[paddystar.2879]

really love the communication from anets side, thansk for that!this really sounds like a great change overall. High end pve builds which utulized phantasm (chrono / condi mesmer) really felt too rewarding for doing nothing (after having phantasms out). I feel really sad for you only reading the first page, people seem to use the forum to shittalk, spitting wrong information (people saying "no hope for mesmer being a dps class" when condi mirage is still one of the best builds out there?) and generally thinking stuff will turn out worst case.Either way i hope you don't take the 90% shittalk in this forum not serious and focus on the 10%, even if its easy to say but hard to do. Those are great ideas and even if the implementation could be unoptimal, taking this step was the correct decision. I feel like anet does too little on balance and seeing big changes lately is really great for the game!

[Tolmos.8395]

This definitely seems like a solid plan, and I imagine it will be very helpful for balance and make a lot of people happy.

That said, I can't help but feel disappointed. When GW2 was first announced, and the character previews became available, I was the most excited for Mesmer. I've always been a big pet class fan, and this seemed like THE pet class. I mean, what better than an army of ME? Of course, the reality was that it wasn't much of a pet class at all, but something entirely unique. That said, with some patience and creativity, it was possible to at least be similar to a pet class with phantasms.

This change brings an end to that.

I mean, I think that's really the point of the change, so I can't say it's a bad thing. Again- it will probably be very helpful. But the change definitely is disappointing for me, personally. :(

[Solori.6025]

@"Rainiris.1975" said:

However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill.

So you want to.... fix.... something that was.... workign as intended?

Had an arguement about this on these forums, apparently anything that is changed is not working as intendedSo if they are changing it, guess it was broken since 2012

[Haishao.6851]

People will certainly miss AFK farming 24/7 with their indefinitely persistent Phantams.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Rainiris.1975" said:

However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill.

So you want to.... fix.... something that was.... workign as intended?

Had an arguement about this on these forums, apparently anything that is changed is not working as intendedSo if they are changing it, guess it was broken since 2012

Correction it worked as intended in 2012Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse it thus its not working as it was intended to originally in todays current meta. Lets be real most phantasms were just shatter bomb fotter in pvp till mirage was released only then did people start whining about how useless phantasms were specifically for mirage. This is also partly the devs mistake for making mirage condition so damn strong instead of adjusting it properly like they did for most other professions in terms of stack and potency application. Meser being one of the few professions who still has instant high melting condi bombs that are almost impossible to react to. Not to mention their rotations have little down time once started up. This in short mostly phased out chornomancer with the exceptions of inside raids were people want alacrity .

[Astralporing.1957]

@Haishao.6851 said:People will certainly miss AFK farming 24/7 with their indefinitely persistent Phantams.Can't miss what you've never had.

@"ZDragon.3046" said:Correction it worked as intended in 2012Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse itWhat you're not saying is that "200% optimal abuse", in optimal (and very narrow) range of conditions could get the mesmer dps option only up to the level already inhabited by few other classes.Unless by "working as intended" you mean "no serious pve dps option".

[Leo G.4501]

I don't have any dogs in this fight since I didn't like Chronomancer, haven't unlocked Mirage and at least my defensive/sustain core Mesmer had already been limping before this change. My only criticism is this direction to eliminate as much passive combat as possible rather than just making the active combat more intuitive. Not saying passive combat is better or active combat is bad, but a subset of players may rely on having aspects of the game be passive so that they can more readily handle the active parts of the game but sifting through and making everything as active as possible might not be as good as finding more balance so that players can adapt their style and capability to a particular ratio of passive-to-active combat.

Don't really have much else to say except I likely won't play mesmer anymore but then I wasn't playing mesmer much lately anyway.

[Solori.6025]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Rainiris.1975" said:

However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill.

So you want to.... fix.... something that was.... workign as intended?

Had an arguement about this on these forums, apparently anything that is changed is not working as intendedSo if they are changing it, guess it was broken since 2012

Correction it worked as intended in 2012Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse it thus its not working as it was intended to originally in todays current meta.

.....Even in todays current meta phantasm gameplay is not even the best or optimal for all game modes..Especially not 200% that you just made up.For world bosses- I would say it offered mesmers, like engineers the ability to afk tag, But it certainly isnt the best and it especially isn't "200%" optimal.Phantasms have worked the same, and are a used the same way since 2012. It offered a playstyle some people liked. That hasn't changed, until now.

Lets be real most phantasms were just shatter bomb fotter in pvp till mirage was released only then did people start whining about how useless phantasms were specifically for mirage.

. . . . Phantasms were never JUST shatter bomb fotter.. Do you play mirage in pvp?You use a phantasm's for many different purposes ,one of the main ones being to continue damage pressure if you end up missing a shatter burst, or run into a passive that stops you from killing your target.And to my knowledge, people weren't whining about phantasms, and from my observations havent been even with the release of PoF and mirage.Do you have any threads you could link to show where/how you came to this conclusion?

This is also partly the devs mistake for making mirage condition so kitten strong instead of adjusting it properly like they did for most other professions in terms of stack and potency application.

Thats a pvp issue that has little to do with phantasms, and more to do with how condition application works. Though this needs to be readjusted for multiple classes.Burst conditions shouldn't exist and is kind of contradictory.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Haishao.6851 said:People will certainly miss AFK farming 24/7 with their indefinitely persistent Phantams.Can't miss what you've never had.

@"ZDragon.3046" said:Correction it worked as intended in 2012Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse itWhat you're not saying is that "200% optimal abuse", in optimal (and very narrow) range of conditions could get the mesmer dps option only up to the level already inhabited by few other classes.Unless by "working as intended" you mean "no serious pve dps option".

By working as intended the devs clearly didnt play it the same way when it was being designed. It worked properly as they originally designed it. How ever players learned to make the most of its mechanics and abuse them (im sorry but 15 illusion and phantasm+ shatters in 3 seconds or less is clearly not intended design from the 2012 idea.)

To be fair mesmer being one of the strongest professions in pvp and having the most tools of nearly all the professions in general a dps lose in pve kind of could be a fair trade for the areas the profession does excel in.I find it odd how they often over look mesmers actions per second being able to do as many things as it can in a instant as well as its tools such as invuln, stealth, and now an even better deception mechanic.

Not to mention in gw1 mesmer was more of a support profession not this crazy thing that insta burst you down. So that being said when you talk about real dps option i mean... make your choice. I just hope if they are going to give what you want to consider mesmer "A real dps option" That they take the time to split skills and traits because upping their damage now in pve and doing the same amount in pvp would simply make them overly busted. Whats lackluster in pve for them is killer in pvp. While anet often talks about something being broken in 1 game mode often means its broken in other game modes. Mesmer is the exception to this.

[Leo G.4501]

@Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

@"Jojo.6140" said:Can someone explain why active gameplay is considered better than passive gameplay? Some people might enjoy a more laid-back and chilled gaming-experience, why would that be bad?

1) It's an action MMO2) "Chilling gaming experience" aka "I don't want to press buttons or try my best but still wishing to perform as much as any other try hard out there!" should not be tolerated. Choice of one class to play should not be privileged over other choices.

I feel this mentality (mainly, the strawman) isn't healthy. There are a variety of aspects to the game that can be active or passive. It should be defined by the player how much active-to-passive gameplay they wish to utilize. It has nothing to do with "wishing to perform as much as whomever" and everything to do with the option to choose. Eliminating choices only reduces choices. Look at Guardian Spirit weapons, I bet those sure are meta now that they've been changed to generic AoE utilities with no flavor...

[Ironhand.9081]

"Phantasms no longer will persist indefinitely. Instead, a phantasm will attack once and then automatically be destroyed. If interrupted during its attack the phantasm also will be destroyed."

So instead of just clones being worthless, we now get phantasms being worthless too.

"Phantasms still can be targeted by skills and take damage while alive. Phantasms can be destroyed by damaging skills before they finish their attack."

No change here, actually.

"A destroyed phantasm will be replaced with a clone based on your current weapon set. This clone will spawn regardless of how the phantasm was destroyed. The clone is spawned at the location of the phantasm at the time it was destroyed."

So there's no phantasms, only clones.

"Shatter skills no longer destroy phantasms, and phantasms no longer count towards the maximum illusion limit."

This is probably the only good change to phantasms, because it removes the need to go for either a shatter or phantasm build; you could utilize both. Except, of course, there's no phantasms anymore. It should have been coupled with a buff to clones to make them more even with tasms, further removing the split of the mechanic rather than removing the more viable part of it.

In my opinion, as a whole the phantasm change is very bad. It removes phantasm builds just as the original mechanic removed shatter builds because it's not meta. It's no fix, it's just the same problem all over again except made worse; effectively it's a nerf to an already weak class. Well, I suppose it simplifies things since there's no point in ever making an elementalist-except-much-crappier again.

As for alacrity, Chronos will still have their place in groups even if nerfed a bit and aside from that, the new alacrity mechanic seems better in implementation.

[Windwalker.7421]

Hope I won't regret saying this, but on paper it least it looks like quite possibly the biggest and best change to Mesmer mechanics since release of the game.

Nice going Anet, taking on major class overhauls like this is what breathes new life into a game for me. It always really sucks when you return to a game after a long break due to some patch, or some Xpac that gets you excited, only to end up realizing a few days later that some really fundamentally broken aspect your favorite profession/class is still there and still really dampens your enjoyment of the game.

Glad to see Phantasms getting a long overdue and much needed overhaul!

[Solori.6025]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Haishao.6851 said:People will certainly miss AFK farming 24/7 with their indefinitely persistent Phantams.Can't miss what you've never had.

@ZDragon.3046 said:Correction it worked as intended in 2012Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse itWhat you're not saying is that "200% optimal abuse", in optimal (and very narrow) range of conditions could get the mesmer dps option only up to the level already inhabited by few other classes.Unless by "working as intended" you mean "no serious pve dps option".

By working as intended the devs clearly didnt play it the same way when it was being designed. It worked properly as they originally designed it. How ever players learned to make the most of its mechanics and abuse them (im sorry but 15 illusion and phantasm+ shatters in 3 seconds or less is clearly not intended design from the 2012 idea.)

Do you have a video or a source that shows how someone can get 15+ illusions and shatter in 3 seconds..because if not..You are lying and/or trolling

To be fair mesmer being one of the strongest professions in pvp and having the most tools of nearly all the professions in general a dps lose in pve kind of could be a fair trade for the areas the profession does excel in.

source?

I find it odd how they often over look mesmers actions per second being able to do as many things as it can in a instant as well as its tools such as invuln, stealth, and now an even better deception mechanic.

It can't do anything more than other classes, multiple classes have invuln and many of them have passive or longer lasting invuln, multiple classes have stealth, and for your deception lets raise you crit immunity and massive healing?

Not to mention in gw1 mesmer

This isn't GW1.This hasn't been GW1 since launch.You're comparing apples to potatoes here.

[Lishtenbird.2814]

@Nikal.4921 said:

@Unknown.3976 said:

The problem doesn't lie with phantasms but with the shatter mechanics, the payoff just isn't there. Shatter builds are not prevalent in PvE becuz the dmg output was too low, alot of effort for subpar dmg and now Anet is insisting that we play along with shatter builds ?? Phantasms might be passive but they have their quirks and they are what make Mesmer unique to play. Mesmer do need some sort of rework but wiping phantasm builds? Isn't quite what we expected. We shall see how this all turns out.

Call me less than pleased with these changes. I resent being told how to play, and that's what this feels like. They could have made Shatter builds more appealing and left Phantasm builds alone. I won't be playing Mes anymore.

That's my biggest issue with this change. It removes an established mechanic that defined a whole class, instead of balancing it to allow a choice of more skillful, but more efficient setup and a less efficient, but more laid-back setup.

If anything, this change should've been a core mechanic of a separate elite spec, not a replacement of a core mechanic. Or at least the other way around, with a separate spec dedicated to phantasmancy. Unless that's what's happening, a preparation for a next expac's elite spec, just like when a traitline of thief was killed to then come back as Daredevil.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Solori.6025 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Rainiris.1975" said:

However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill.

So you want to.... fix.... something that was.... workign as intended?

Had an arguement about this on these forums, apparently anything that is changed is not working as intendedSo if they are changing it, guess it was broken since 2012

Correction it worked as intended in 2012Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse it thus its not working as it was intended to originally in todays current meta.

.....Even in todays current meta phantasm gameplay is not even the best or optimal for all game modes..Especially not 200% that you just made up.For world bosses- I would say it offered mesmers, like engineers the ability to afk tag, But it certainly isnt the best and it especially isn't "200%" optimal.Phantasms have worked the same, and are a used the same way since 2012. It offered a playstyle some people liked. That hasn't changed, until now.

Lets be real most phantasms were just shatter bomb fotter in pvp till mirage was released only then did people start whining about how useless phantasms were specifically for mirage.

. . . . Phantasms were never

JUST

shatter bomb fotter.. Do you play mirage in pvp?You use a phantasm's for many different purposes ,one of the main ones being to continue damage pressure if you end up missing a shatter burst, or run into a passive that stops you from killing your target.And to my knowledge, people weren't whining about phantasms, and from my observations havent been even with the release of PoF and mirage.

Do you have any threads you could link to show where/how you came to this conclusion?

This is also partly the devs mistake for making mirage condition so kitten strong instead of adjusting it properly like they did for most other professions in terms of stack and potency application.

Thats a pvp issue that has little to do with phantasms, and more to do with how condition application works. Though this needs to be readjusted for multiple classes.Burst conditions shouldn't exist and is kind of contradictory.

Before mirage everything was shatter as much as possible. Did you ever play choro in pvp? lol

Its just that simple. Mirage is the first profession that promotes delaying your shatter to actually make use of the illusions. Of course the 200% is a made up number you can really measure how optimal players use a mechanic my point was that people clearly changed what it was originally designed for from 2012 creating the problem. Im all for the changes I just hope they finally make Mesmer fall in line with the other professions across the board because right now while it might not excel in one area pve it hardcore dominates in others.

We all know how doing changes on this scale in for one game mode can break other game modes so yea im a bit concerned. More importantly i hope they go back and look at other professions with more serious issues than mesmer soon in the future.

[Super Hayes.6890]

I think the title of this thread is perfect. Can't wait to play the changes!

[Astralporing.1957]

@ZDragon.3046 said:By working as intended the devs clearly didnt play it the same way when it was being designed. It worked properly as they originally designed it.So, again, "worked properly" means "had no serious pve dps option"? (remember, mesmer support wasn't even a thing then)

@ZDragon.3046 said:How ever players learned to make the most of its mechanics and abuse themMany things were not intended design then. Things like group healing specializations (druid, ventrari rev line), Necros having any group support options, pet stow in exchange for stat boosts for Ranger ("not on the table, we were told"), etc.(im sorry but 15 illusion and phantasm+ shatters in 3 seconds or less is clearly not intended design from the 2012 idea.)Yeah, getting rid of sustained phantasms option and buffing up mesmer bursts to make up for that is definitely going to help us get rid of this one [/sarcasm](but seriously, was what you describe ever possible, or are you exagerrating much?)

@ZDragon.3046 said:To be fair mesmer being one of the strongest professions in pvp and having the most tools of nearly all the professions in general a dps lose in pve kind of could be a fair trade for the areas the profession does excel in.Only for pvp players that do not care for pve. For pve players that was no fair trade at all (same with Necro, btw).

@ZDragon.3046 said:Not to mention in gw1 mesmer was more of a support professionYou mean portal, right? Out of fight utility, but no in-combat support worth speaking of. That only came with Chrono.

[Defiance.4163]

@"Swagger.1459" said:I would also like to suggest that phantasms and clones look completely different than the player character, and more like transparent forms that are visually identifiable. Why? because exact character copies are too advantageous in wvw and spvp for a medium base HP class (15k), that can burst for 22k (24k was my most recent incoming damage on a full trailblazer necro) in 3 seconds on a max toughness target, that also has great mobility AND stealth options... Players shouldn't have to waste 3-5 seconds determining who the actual target is, they should be focused on split second skill decision making.

This is what I mean....

-In most cases a person will as you said, shatter their clones - what is left standing? A mesmer you can clearly target.-If a person does have clones up: You simply look for the one who has boons/buffs, OR the one that doesn't move in straight lines, OR the one that is blinking(teleporting), OR the one casting something other than AA's, OR the one that is jumping. Finding the player amongst clones is not a problem.-Basicly, what you're asking for is making mesmer easier to kill for noobs/people who don't bother learning how to play vs certain classes.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Solori.6025 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Haishao.6851 said:People will certainly miss AFK farming 24/7 with their indefinitely persistent Phantams.Can't miss what you've never had.

@ZDragon.3046 said:Correction it worked as intended in 2012Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse itWhat you're not saying is that "200% optimal abuse", in optimal (and very narrow) range of conditions could get the mesmer dps option only up to the level already inhabited by few other classes.Unless by "working as intended" you mean "no serious pve dps option".

By working as intended the devs clearly didnt play it the same way when it was being designed. It worked properly as they originally designed it. How ever players learned to make the most of its mechanics and abuse them (im sorry but 15 illusion and phantasm+ shatters in 3 seconds or less is clearly not intended design from the 2012 idea.)

Do you have a video or a source that shows how someone can get 15+ illusions and shatter in 3 seconds..because if not..

You are lying and/or trolling

To be fair mesmer being one of the strongest professions in pvp and having the most tools of nearly all the professions in general a dps lose in pve kind of could be a fair trade for the areas the profession does excel in.

source?

I find it odd how they often over look mesmers actions per second being able to do as many things as it can in a instant as well as its tools such as invuln, stealth, and now an even better deception mechanic.

It can't do anything more than other classes, multiple classes have invuln and many of them have passive or longer lasting invuln, multiple classes have stealth, and for your deception lets raise you crit immunity and massive healing?

Not to mention in gw1 mesmer

This isn't GW1.This hasn't been GW1 since launch.You're comparing apples to potatoes here.

Have you really never been hit with a shatter burst that breaks the animation of the clones that it just shows dead illusions laying around on the floor as if they were killed players it takes alot and i mean alot of illusions to do this.As far as providing a source of tools for mesmer vs other professions. All you have to do is log in and play the professions yourself. :U its odd that i would need provide a source for that unless you have not at spent any time at all on any other professions. Mesmer has its strong areas and weak areas. I would like them to fix both.

Im gonna assume you either never seen chorno's at high level in competitive game modes. Or that you started playing after PoF launched. I dont come here to troll purposely so to assume i do is your mistake.

[Solori.6025]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Rainiris.1975" said:

However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill.

So you want to.... fix.... something that was.... workign as intended?

Had an arguement about this on these forums, apparently anything that is changed is not working as intendedSo if they are changing it, guess it was broken since 2012

Correction it worked as intended in 2012Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse it thus its not working as it was intended to originally in todays current meta.

.....Even in todays current meta phantasm gameplay is not even the best or optimal for all game modes..Especially not 200% that you just made up.For world bosses- I would say it offered mesmers, like engineers the ability to afk tag, But it certainly isnt the best and it especially isn't "200%" optimal.Phantasms have worked the same, and are a used the same way since 2012. It offered a playstyle some people liked. That hasn't changed, until now.

Lets be real most phantasms were just shatter bomb fotter in pvp till mirage was released only then did people start whining about how useless phantasms were specifically for mirage.

. . . . Phantasms were never

JUST

shatter bomb fotter.. Do you play mirage in pvp?You use a phantasm's for many different purposes ,one of the main ones being to continue damage pressure if you end up missing a shatter burst, or run into a passive that stops you from killing your target.And to my knowledge, people weren't whining about phantasms, and from my observations havent been even with the release of PoF and mirage.

Do you have any threads you could link to show where/how you came to this conclusion?

This is also partly the devs mistake for making mirage condition so kitten strong instead of adjusting it properly like they did for most other professions in terms of stack and potency application.

Thats a pvp issue that has little to do with phantasms, and more to do with how condition application works. Though this needs to be readjusted for multiple classes.Burst conditions shouldn't exist and is kind of contradictory.

Before mirage everything was shatter as much as possible. Did you ever play choro in pvp? lol

Yes, and if all you did was summon a phantasm and blindly shatter you did it wrong.You did it very wrong.Its just that simple. Mirage is the first profession that promotes delaying your shatter to actually make use of the illusions.It was also a tactic for base mesmer when it was relevant.

Of course the 200% is a made up number you can really measure how optimal players use a mechanic my point was that people clearly changed what it was originally designed for from 2012 creating the problem.

Cool except that this wasn't changed because the players broke it and it clearly stats from the original dev post

"However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved... "

This change has come about because they want a more active game. Same way they changed adrenaline for warriors to not save adrenaline out of combat.It is an evolutionary choice that the devs want to basically shoehorn mesmer players into. This isn't because phantasms became magically broken just a difference in vision from start to finish.Thus why my original comment. Doesn't make sense to call something changed unintended if it's just a change in a different direction. Also my original comment was sarcasm...Though I guess I should have put a /s behind it.

[Zania.8461]

I am concerned that this will result in reduced sustained damage and increase in burst damage for all non-clone mirage builds. Which in turn will make power mesmers in PvE less useful while making them even more ridiculous in WvW.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Solori.6025 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Rainiris.1975" said:

However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill.

So you want to.... fix.... something that was.... workign as intended?

Had an arguement about this on these forums, apparently anything that is changed is not working as intendedSo if they are changing it, guess it was broken since 2012

Correction it worked as intended in 2012Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse it thus its not working as it was intended to originally in todays current meta.

.....Even in todays current meta phantasm gameplay is not even the best or optimal for all game modes..Especially not 200% that you just made up.For world bosses- I would say it offered mesmers, like engineers the ability to afk tag, But it certainly isnt the best and it especially isn't "200%" optimal.Phantasms have worked the same, and are a used the same way since 2012. It offered a playstyle some people liked. That hasn't changed, until now.

Lets be real most phantasms were just shatter bomb fotter in pvp till mirage was released only then did people start whining about how useless phantasms were specifically for mirage.

. . . . Phantasms were never

JUST

shatter bomb fotter.. Do you play mirage in pvp?You use a phantasm's for many different purposes ,one of the main ones being to continue damage pressure if you end up missing a shatter burst, or run into a passive that stops you from killing your target.And to my knowledge, people weren't whining about phantasms, and from my observations havent been even with the release of PoF and mirage.

Do you have any threads you could link to show where/how you came to this conclusion?

This is also partly the devs mistake for making mirage condition so kitten strong instead of adjusting it properly like they did for most other professions in terms of stack and potency application.

Thats a pvp issue that has little to do with phantasms, and more to do with how condition application works. Though this needs to be readjusted for multiple classes.Burst conditions shouldn't exist and is kind of contradictory.

Before mirage everything was shatter as much as possible. Did you ever play choro in pvp? lol

Yes, and if all you did was summon a phantasm and blindly shatter you did it wrong.You did it very wrong.Its just that simple. Mirage is the first profession that promotes delaying your shatter to actually make use of the illusions.It was also a tactic for base mesmer when it was relevant.

Of course the 200% is a made up number you can really measure how optimal players use a mechanic my point was that people clearly changed what it was originally designed for from 2012 creating the problem.

Cool except that this wasn't changed because the players broke it and it clearly stats from the original dev post

"However we've discovered as the game has developed and evolved... "

This change has come about because they want a more active game. Same way they changed adrenaline for warriors to not save adrenaline out of combat.It is an evolutionary choice that the devs want to basically shoehorn mesmer players into. This isn't because phantasms became magically broken just a difference in vision from start to finish.Thus why my original comment. Doesn't make sense to call something changed unintended if it's just a change in a different direction. Also my original comment was sarcasm...Though I guess I should have put a /s behind it.

Of course you dont blindly shatter there was a pattern to it just like every profession has. You know what i mean. I think you are just messing with me now XD.Of course things dont magically become broken people spend some lab time figuring out how to make them broken. This happens with any game that has any kind of competitive spirit within it. All it takes is a few hundred - thousand hours and you can make almost (loose term) anything broken.

The point is lets be happy they are actually taking a step to do this for one profession and I do hope that other profession follow sooner rather than later. As other professions have some serious issues going on too. That a simple fix 2 elite specs down the line wont fix.

[Solori.6025]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Haishao.6851 said:People will certainly miss AFK farming 24/7 with their indefinitely persistent Phantams.Can't miss what you've never had.

@ZDragon.3046 said:Correction it worked as intended in 2012Players found ways to make it 200% optimal and abuse itWhat you're not saying is that "200% optimal abuse", in optimal (and very narrow) range of conditions could get the mesmer dps option only up to the level already inhabited by few other classes.Unless by "working as intended" you mean "no serious pve dps option".

By working as intended the devs clearly didnt play it the same way when it was being designed. It worked properly as they originally designed it. How ever players learned to make the most of its mechanics and abuse them (im sorry but 15 illusion and phantasm+ shatters in 3 seconds or less is clearly not intended design from the 2012 idea.)

Do you have a video or a source that shows how someone can get 15+ illusions and shatter in 3 seconds..because if not..

You are lying and/or trolling

To be fair mesmer being one of the strongest professions in pvp and having the most tools of nearly all the professions in general a dps lose in pve kind of could be a fair trade for the areas the profession does excel in.

source?

I find it odd how they often over look mesmers actions per second being able to do as many things as it can in a instant as well as its tools such as invuln, stealth, and now an even better deception mechanic.

It can't do anything more than other classes, multiple classes have invuln and many of them have passive or longer lasting invuln, multiple classes have stealth, and for your deception lets raise you crit immunity and massive healing?

Not to mention in gw1 mesmer

This isn't GW1.This hasn't been GW1 since launch.You're comparing apples to potatoes here.

Have you really never been hit with a shatter burst that breaks the animation of the clones that it just shows dead illusions laying around on the floor as if they were killed players it takes alot and i mean alot of illusions to do this.

Yes I do that quite often but it's never 15+ more like 4 or 5 sometimes 6 depending on the situation.

As far as providing a source of tools for mesmer vs other professions. All you have to do is log in and play the professions yourself. :U its odd that i would need provide a source for that unless you have not at spent any time at all on any other professions. Mesmer has its strong areas and weak areas. I would like them to fix both.

No, I was asking for a source for the statistic you made up. So far, the consensus I have seen in Spvp is that mesmer is overshadowed still by DD, Holo, and scourge, that's taking in the pop up threads in the spvp subsection.

Im gonna assume you either never seen chorno's at high level in competitive game modes. Or that you started playing after PoF launched. I dont come here to troll purposely so to assume i do is your mistake.

Been here since the beginning, I have not seen a high level mesmer pop a phantasm just to shatter it for no reason.Though when you say shatter fotter I assume you are talking about rolling your face across the f keys with no rhyme or reason.IF we are talking about shattering and then leaving those phantasms up from Chrono phantasma ( say you shatter and miss for whatever reason) then I apologize, as I consider that a strategic use of those phantasms because you still keep DPS pressure.

[Abelisk.4527]

@Nikal.4921 said:

@Unknown.3976 said:

The problem doesn't lie with phantasms but with the shatter mechanics, the payoff just isn't there. Shatter builds are not prevalent in PvE becuz the dmg output was too low, alot of effort for subpar dmg and now Anet is insisting that we play along with shatter builds ?? Phantasms might be passive but they have their quirks and they are what make Mesmer unique to play. Mesmer do need some sort of rework but wiping phantasm builds? Isn't quite what we expected. We shall see how this all turns out.

Call me less than pleased with these changes. I resent being told how to play, and that's what this feels like. They could have made Shatter builds more appealing and left Phantasm builds alone. I won't be playing Mes anymore.

How funny... because spamming three Phantasms to do the work with a long ramp-up time is soo much fun! /s

The current system forces Mesmers to sacrifice existing illusions (Phantasms or Clones) upon spawning a Phantasm. Furthermore Mirage is like anti-Phantasm--all the clone traits absolutely destroy Phantasm effectiveness. This issue has existed since GW2's conception. How is our current system not restricting or limiting? With this in place, traits like Deceptive Evasion, Self Deception, Illusionary Reversion won't hamper the effectiveness of Phantasms any longer. Clone skills won't mess up Phantasms anymore. Combos between Phantasms and shattering will be a possibility now. IRONY.

How will this new change be limiting at all? And who said shattering would become mandatory?

[Astralporing.1957]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Do you have a video or a source that shows how someone can get 15+ illusions and shatter in 3 seconds..because if not..

You are lying and/or trolling

Have you really never been hit with a shatter burst that breaks the animation of the clones that it just shows dead illusions laying around on the floor as if they were killed players it takes alot and i mean alot of illusions to do this.As far as providing a source of tools for mesmer vs other professions. All you have to do is log in and play the professions yourself. :U its odd that i would need provide a source for that unless you have not at spent any time at all on any other professions. Mesmer has its strong areas and weak areas. I would like them to fix both.

Im gonna assume you either never seen chorno's at high level in competitive game modes. Or that you started playing after PoF launched. I dont come here to troll purposely so to assume i do is your mistake.

So, those numbers

were

pulled out of thin air with no basis for them at all.If you want to discuss something, try to stick to arguments about the real situations, not made up ones. 15 illusion shatters in 3 seconds is pure fantasy.