Discussion about Confusion [merged]

[Curunen.8729]

@Astralporing.1957 said:I'd rather they didn't try to make it better (and break it even further in the attempt) and just reverted it to pre-patch state for PvE, which is known to work well enough.

I simply don't believe they can make their idea for confusion work in PvE without it having some unintended negative consequences.

Agreed. Just give pve their DoT confusion back and make the change apply to pvp/wvw only - and then please replace confusion on axe!

[Oglaf.1074]

Since you’re adamant in keeping Confusion as utter garbage in PvE (as evident by just giving Mirage moar Torment) please do the same to other traits and abilities that currently deal Confusion.

You destroyed the condition in PvE and now you have to fix what you done, Anet.

[Oglaf.1074]

Don’t try and do anything fancy.

Just do a PvE/PvP split with the PvE version working as pre-patch.

[Pie.2167]

Especially Mind Blast, mesmers down skill that applies confusion in PvE and Scepter 3.

[Vajra.3157]

Okay, the way you deal with Confusion, by replacing it with Torment, is just meh. It doesn't solve the problem with Confusion that you've created in PvE. There are also still a lot of traits and skills that involve Confusion. Are you gonna change them, or just leave them useless like that in PvE? You put what you have decided on players without listening to them and giving them a sound reason why Confusion has to be changed back to the oldest version in PvE. If you want to make Confusion like a 'hex' style punishment, then you probably have to change the behaviors of PvE enemies as well. My 'hexes' deal no damage at all to objects and many bosses with long skill activation/cooldown and I have no control over it (Chak Gerent, for example, when it makes rocks falling, it counts as one skill activation). This is the problem of the nature of Confusion that you had actually solved it in the PvE environment, and I just see no reason for reverting this part to the state that it is broken, or complicating things with a bunch of adjustments.

For now, Torment has a based DPS and you may kite movable enemies around to increase it, which can be a temporary solution. However, I feel it just does not fit Mirage/Mesmer so well thematically. Maybe, it takes time to adapt to what you have forced us to play.

[Loosmaster.8263]

Both those conditions should have died right along with Scarlet Briar!!!

[AliamRationem.5172]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Make the activated damage tick when hard or soft cc is applied. (for small or large damage respectively)

I'm with the others on this one. Just revert it to pre-nerf status in PvE. It was working perfectly fine. Why re-invent the wheel?

[Fussion.3247]

I genuinly have a sad feeling having spent my money on Astralaria now. Guess it was fun for a months though.

[zealex.9410]

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion.

All

of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely useless and seeing that Anet changed it I guess Confusion will stay like this for a long time, at least for this expansion.

Still the best action for the game itself would have been to revert the confusion change for PvE.

The best action would be to completely split pve confusion and pvp confusion. Same with pve torment and pvp torment. At least axe mriage is back on track with the torment and the phantasms in the rota witch mostly fixes the issue the confusion change caused in pve.

[zealex.9410]

@Fussion.3247 said:I genuinly have a sad feeling having spent my money on Astralaria now. Guess it was fun for a months though.

Axe for mesmer is good the changes they did made it good again.

[zealex.9410]

@Vajra.3157 said:Okay, the way you deal with Confusion, by replacing it with Torment, is just meh. It doesn't solve the problem with Confusion that you've created in PvE. There are also still a lot of traits and skills that involve Confusion. Are you gonna change them, or just leave them useless like that in PvE? You put what you have decided on players without listening to them and giving them a sound reason why Confusion has to be changed back to the oldest version in PvE. If you want to make Confusion like a 'hex' style punishment, then you probably have to change the behaviors of PvE enemies as well. My 'hexes' deal no damage at all to objects and many bosses with long skill activation/cooldown and I have no control over it (Chak Gerent, for example, when it makes rocks falling, it counts as one skill activation). This is the problem of the nature of Confusion that you had actually solved it in the PvE environment, and I just see no reason for reverting this part to the state that it is broken, or complicating things with a bunch of adjustments.

For now, Torment has a based DPS and you may kite movable enemies around to increase it, which can be a temporary solution. However, I feel it just does not fit Mirage/Mesmer so well thematically. Maybe, it takes time to adapt to what you have forced us to play.

Its fine tbh the changes put mirage back on track and the torment ticks for the same dmg as bleed on stationary targets making it fine.

[Rauderi.8706]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Make the activated damage tick when hard or soft cc is applied. (for small or large damage respectively)

Yikes, no. :cry: While it might be a cute way to add synergy for raids, it'd be obnoxious in PvP or for soloing.

If Confusion got a rework, I'd support having it treated like Blind. During its duration, if a skill is used, the stacks activate, do damage, then disappear.Clean, effective for PvP and PvE.

[Thornum.8607]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vajra.3157 said:Okay, the way you deal with Confusion, by replacing it with Torment, is just meh. It doesn't solve the problem with Confusion that you've created in PvE. There are also still a lot of traits and skills that involve Confusion. Are you gonna change them, or just leave them useless like that in PvE? You put what you have decided on players without listening to them and giving them a sound reason why Confusion has to be changed back to the oldest version in PvE. If you want to make Confusion like a 'hex' style punishment, then you probably have to change the behaviors of PvE enemies as well. My 'hexes' deal no damage at all to objects and many bosses with long skill activation/cooldown and I have no control over it (Chak Gerent, for example, when it makes rocks falling, it counts as one skill activation). This is the problem of the nature of Confusion that you had actually solved it in the PvE environment, and I just see no reason for reverting this part to the state that it is broken, or complicating things with a bunch of adjustments.

For now, Torment has a based DPS and you may kite movable enemies around to increase it, which can be a temporary solution. However, I feel it just does not fit Mirage/Mesmer so well thematically. Maybe, it takes time to adapt to what you have forced us to play.

Its fine tbh the changes put mirage back on track and the torment ticks for the same dmg as bleed on stationary targets making it fine.

That is implying that 'everything is fine' when damage benchmarks are back on track. It completely ignores the fact that there are many other sources of confusion that have once again become obsolete in PvE, on top of the fact that many players find confusion to be part of the Mesmer identity. Many players will play a class for its theme, its feel, its visual aspects. Torment simply does not fit the Mesmer identity as well as confusion, and while you might be happy that the benchmarks are back to meta levels, for many people that does not fix the core issue.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Make the activated damage tick when hard or soft cc is applied. (for small or large damage respectively)

Yikes, no. :cry: While it might be a cute way to add synergy for raids, it'd be obnoxious in PvP or for soloing.

If Confusion got a rework, I'd support having it treated like Blind. During its duration, if a skill is used, the stacks activate, do damage, then disappear.Clean, effective for PvP and PvE.As someone pointed out before, skill activation as a trigger is useless in PvE for burst type damage, because you usually want to burst the most at the point where the target is stunned and doesn't do anything. It would also make you

not

want to break defiance bars on bosses (because then, again, no damage). Damaging condition that is only good against trash mobs that will go down to autoattacking anyway is a condition wasted.

[Rauderi.8706]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:Make the activated damage tick when hard or soft cc is applied. (for small or large damage respectively)

Yikes, no. :cry: While it might be a cute way to add synergy for raids, it'd be obnoxious in PvP or for soloing.

If Confusion got a rework, I'd support having it treated like Blind. During its duration, if a skill is used, the stacks activate, do damage, then disappear.Clean, effective for PvP and PvE.As someone pointed out before, skill activation as a trigger is useless in PvE for burst type damage, because you usually want to burst the most at the point where the target is stunned and doesn't do anything. It would also make you

not

want to break defiance bars on bosses (because then, again, no damage). Damaging condition that is only good against trash mobs that will go down to autoattacking anyway is a condition wasted.

Trust me, I'm not married to the idea. BUT, if ANet wants "purity of purpose" for Confusion, we need to be willing to make concessions and think outside the box.

As detailed earlier (possibly on reddit or somewhere else in this thread), condition duration would make the difference between PvP and PvE versions. Possibly also damage scaling to contend with PvE enemies having more HP.

PvP version: 2 seconds, does moderate to high damagePvE version: 4, possibly 5 or 6 seconds base, boosted with Expertise. Breaking a defiance bar usually only puts a boss down for 5 seconds, then it acts. Don't want to get stuck with "useless" Confusion? Stack it during the stun phase (sticking point: Confusion damage would have to have special behavior during those stun phases) or take enough Expertise to extend past it. Make the damage explosive enough, and it'll still be worth it.

But, I'd be perfectly fine going back to the way it was. The tick damage was at least close to Bleed, so it was worth using regardless, but it still suffered from PvE enemies not attack fast enough or bosses getting stunned. That was always an issue with the previous approach.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion.

All

of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely uselessNot much better though. It simply masks the problem and lets Anet ignore it for the next half a year (or more). If they hadn't changed the axe, there would have been some hope they'd be forced to reconsider their fail attempt at Confusion rework. Now however they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is going on.

Duct-taping the crumbling fundaments and pretending it will hold is generally not a good idea. It may help a little, but in the long run it doesn't solve anything.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion.

All

of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely uselessNot much better though. It simply masks the problem and lets Anet ignore it for the next half a year (or more). If they hadn't changed the axe, there would have been some hope they'd be forced to reconsider their fail attempt at Confusion rework. Now however they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is going on.

Duct-taping the crumbling fundaments and pretending it will hold is generally not a good idea. It may help a little, but in the long run it doesn't solve anything.

Tell me ouside of mesmer whats the problem with confusion in pve? Which other class is crippled from the changes to confusion.

[zealex.9410]

@Thornum.8607 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vajra.3157 said:Okay, the way you deal with Confusion, by replacing it with Torment, is just meh. It doesn't solve the problem with Confusion that you've created in PvE. There are also still a lot of traits and skills that involve Confusion. Are you gonna change them, or just leave them useless like that in PvE? You put what you have decided on players without listening to them and giving them a sound reason why Confusion has to be changed back to the oldest version in PvE. If you want to make Confusion like a 'hex' style punishment, then you probably have to change the behaviors of PvE enemies as well. My 'hexes' deal no damage at all to objects and many bosses with long skill activation/cooldown and I have no control over it (Chak Gerent, for example, when it makes rocks falling, it counts as one skill activation). This is the problem of the nature of Confusion that you had actually solved it in the PvE environment, and I just see no reason for reverting this part to the state that it is broken, or complicating things with a bunch of adjustments.

For now, Torment has a based DPS and you may kite movable enemies around to increase it, which can be a temporary solution. However, I feel it just does not fit Mirage/Mesmer so well thematically. Maybe, it takes time to adapt to what you have forced us to play.

Its fine tbh the changes put mirage back on track and the torment ticks for the same dmg as bleed on stationary targets making it fine.

That is implying that 'everything is fine' when damage benchmarks are back on track. It completely ignores the fact that there are many other sources of confusion that have once again become obsolete in PvE, on top of the fact that many players find confusion to be part of the Mesmer identity. Many players will play a class for its theme, its feel, its visual aspects. Torment simply does not fit the Mesmer identity as well as confusion, and while you might be happy that the benchmarks are back to meta levels, for many people that does not fix the core issue.

Both fit it equally well. The game aslo has many diff aspects u'd expect diff things to be strong in diff areas. There no issue because confusion isnt useless its still good in pvp and wvw.

[Imperadordf.2687]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion.

All

of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely uselessNot much better though. It simply masks the problem and lets Anet ignore it for the next half a year (or more). If they hadn't changed the axe, there would have been some hope they'd be forced to reconsider their fail attempt at Confusion rework. Now however they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is going on.

Duct-taping the crumbling fundaments and pretending it will hold is generally not a good idea. It may help a little, but in the long run it doesn't solve anything.

Tell me ouside of mesmer whats the problem with confusion in pve? Which other class is crippled from the changes to confusion.

It killed Condition Core Engineer if I’m not mistaken. (Probably mistaken though)

[noobymaniac.9483]

Confusion mechanically as a heavy dot seems redundant to me. There are 3 conditions that fill that role pretty well. I'm glad the direction Anet is going with the condition. However, if duration was lowered and potency increased for the condition, it could help. Ideally, you would anticipate an attack from a mob/player and slap confusion before they finish the move. This would make the effect timing similar to timing an aegis and make the skill more useful against mobs that attack less often.

[Rauderi.8706]

@"zealex.9410" said:Tell me outside of mesmer whats the problem with confusion in pve? Which other class is crippled from the changes to confusion?

1. It's a problem with an entire profession. That's enough reason to be concerned about this change.
2. It's not exclusively about some meta benchmarks that apply to a smattering of high-end content. "Fixing" axe leaves a glaring hole in something fundamental in condition play. And it touches possible builds in Mesmer, Warrior, Engineer, Ranger, and Revenant.

[Bofouci.1320]

@SaltAndLight.4652 said:Especially Mind Blast, mesmers down skill that applies confusion in PvE and Scepter 3.

Holy crap! I've been just paying attention to all the other non-downed skills that still have confusion as their mechanic. Anet, please fix my downed state as well or you may as well give mesmers /gg command access in open world pve.

[zealex.9410]

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Tell me outside of mesmer whats the problem with confusion in pve? Which other class is crippled from the changes to confusion?

1. It's a problem with an entire profession. That's enough reason to be concerned about this change.
2. It's
   not
   exclusively about some meta benchmarks that apply to a smattering of high-end content. "Fixing" axe leaves a glaring hole in something fundamental in condition play. And it touches possible builds in Mesmer, Warrior, Engineer, Ranger, and Revenant.

But its not fine only in pve / shrug

[Walhalla.5473]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion.

All

of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely uselessNot much better though. It simply masks the problem and lets Anet ignore it for the next half a year (or more). If they hadn't changed the axe, there would have been some hope they'd be forced to reconsider their fail attempt at Confusion rework. Now however they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is going on.

Duct-taping the crumbling fundaments and pretending it will hold is generally not a good idea. It may help a little, but in the long run it doesn't solve anything.

Problem is. Anet isn't going to change it anytime soon. They somehow determined that making confusion getting closer to vanilla is how the game will benefit at all and now they are sticking with it, at least for one expansion. I don't know how they came up with the idea to implement this change for PvE and I would really like to see the logic behind it for PvE. This change still reeks of a lack of thought for PvEDon't get me wrong we should voice our concerns, disappointment, anger and disapproval of this and I really hope that this will speed up a change in the right direction, which we all know what it is.^^

[Rauderi.8706]

@"zealex.9410" said:But its not fine only in pve / shrug

I was under the impression the PvP/WvW Confusion changes were fairly well received. After all the complaints about the "condi meta" and whatnot, where's the issue? Like, legit question.

@Walhalla.5473 said:Don't get me wrong we should voice our concerns, disappointment, anger and disapproval of this and I really hope that this will speed up a change in the right direction, which we all know what it is.^^

We need to keep at it. Provide ideas that help reconcile Confusion for what the devs are thinking versus what we had before. But most importantly do not let this die.If it gets to 40 pages, maybe we'll see enough pressure applied (like with adoption licenses).