Discussion about Confusion [merged]

[Astralporing.1957]

@Xstein.2187 said:Serious question to the community. I didn't play when gw1 was around. Were hexes only used in pvp, or were they used in pve as well? If they were used in pve, why?Because, unlike in GW2, mobs used pretty much the same skill system players did. Had the same classes, used the same player skills, at about the same speed (except for the hard mode, where they used the same skills, but faster). Also, had better AI than GW2 mobs. On top of that, hexes were more specific in their purpose, and you had a ton of them for different purposes. There were hexes against spellcasters, hexes against skill use, hexes against (auto)attacking, hexes punishing you for dealing damage, for healing, for moving, even for not using skills... a multitude of options you could choose from to match against specific foes.Additionally, hexes could be strong, because they were unique - you couldn't apply more than one instance of a specific hex on a mob (this worked, because the game combat was all instanced)

So, hexes did work in gw1, because the game was built differently.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

If the aim is to recreate hexes... Doesn't if seem like shatters could do this?

If confusion only had a ticking damage component... Like lite bleeding...

Then, based on which shatter you used, convert those stacks of confuse into 4 different hexes.

Mindwrack- hex applies to auto attackCry of frustration - hex applies to cleansing mechanicsDiversion- hex on skill usageDistortion- hex on evades and invulnerables

Idea being that shattering consumes stacks to create hexes (which would be conditions, so they can be cleansed) whose power and duration would be relive to the number of stacks consumed.

Then remove confuse from other professions and trade it with more appropriate conditions for thier functions.

Or just revert the changes for pve only. That's the winner imo

[Sodeni.6041]

If you want confusion to be a viable (bursty) option in PvE (not only for mesmer's axe, since other skills also apply confusion!) you have to make all mobs attack way more often and block/evade less. Wasn't the whole reason you changed it to a damage-over-time condition because PvE mobs attack so rarely which made confusion really bad compared to any other damaging condition?

Making confusion basically bad and the worst consistant/reliant condition in PvE and changing axe conditions to torment reduces a lot of the mesmer's flavour and harms it's identity in my opinion. Confusion just fits the mesmer the most out of all conditions.

[Xstein.2187]

Or since it sounds like hexes were specific for specific circumstances, it seems like it would be a better idea for the devs could worry more about a 'hex' feel with different future specializations so you can actually 'build' for the specific circumstance instead of getting shoehorned into it.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Xstein.2187 said:Or since it sounds like hexes were specific for specific circumstances, it seems like it would be a better idea for the devs could worry more about a 'hex' feel with different future specializations so you can actually 'build' for the specific circumstance instead of getting shoehorned into it.

Wouldn't work. We simply do not have big enough variety of skills.

[Xstein.2187]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:Or since it sounds like hexes were specific for specific circumstances, it seems like it would be a better idea for the devs could worry more about a 'hex' feel with different future specializations so you can actually 'build' for the specific circumstance instead of getting shoehorned into it.

Wouldn't work. We simply do not have big enough variety of skills.

What do you mean? Tons of new skills and traits are added with new elite specializations. Hell, we even got a new boon, alacrity, with the first specialization that came out.

[MedievalThings.5417]

People keep asking why it had to be nerfed in PvE, it's because it was broken in WvW, and WvW is still using the PvE ruleset.That really seems to be the reason.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Xstein.2187 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:Or since it sounds like hexes were specific for specific circumstances, it seems like it would be a better idea for the devs could worry more about a 'hex' feel with different future specializations so you can actually 'build' for the specific circumstance instead of getting shoehorned into it.

Wouldn't work. We simply do not have big enough variety of skills.

What do you mean? Tons of new skills and traits are added with new elite specializations. Hell, we even got a new boon, alacrity, with the first specialization that came out.The most important ones - weapon skills - are "packaged". You can't switch out one of those skills for a specific boss encounter, for example. Usually you can't really switch out the weapon either, because there's only one weapon set (sometimes two) that complements your build - others may give you additional options, but at the cost that is generally not acceptable (so, usually a massive dps loss). Also, the amount of utility skills is really pitiful compared to the wealth of options GW1 gave. Frequent respeccing (something that in gw1 was a norm) is also not sensible, considering the not so small cost associated with it.

All this is completely intentional - for devs "multitude of options" equated to a "balancing nightmare", so in GW2 they prefer everything to be simpler, but easier to manage.

@Ubi.4136 said:People keep asking why it had to be nerfed in PvE, it's because it was broken in WvW, and WvW is still using the PvE ruleset.That really seems to be the reason.Yeah, because there was no PvE/WvW skill splits in the very same patch...oh wait.

[Zeivu.3615]

@Xstein.2187 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:Or since it sounds like hexes were specific for specific circumstances, it seems like it would be a better idea for the devs could worry more about a 'hex' feel with different future specializations so you can actually 'build' for the specific circumstance instead of getting shoehorned into it.

Wouldn't work. We simply do not have big enough variety of skills.

What do you mean? Tons of new skills and traits are added with new elite specializations. Hell, we even got a new boon, alacrity, with the first specialization that came out.

Combat has been simplified in gw2. While there are a lot of new traits and skills, most of them are just rehashes of what other classes have and can already do. Very few of the classes/professions feel unique in their performance.

[Angel de Lyssa.4716]

@Karl McLain.5604 said:

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@Karl McLain.5604 said:The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

Ok Karl. First question. Why did you do this in PvE? Especially AFTER you made that condition useful in PvE in the August 2017 Patch?

And base damage in PvE is horrible, a damage tick less than 20 in PvE is not good, you could have unsplit the base damage and it wouldn't even matter.

Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

This is laughable ... remove the "confusion" of the Mirage ax, and replace it with "Torment" ... when there are things like ... the warrior have a trait grandmaster "Merciless Hammer" that inflicts x6 Confusion of 8s in pvp (x4 on pve), that can use of spam. Then another skill like "Skull Grinder" that applies x5 Confusion in pvp of 6s... yes, better eliminate the Mirage altogether, and let the warrior inflict "confusion" ... Total, the warrior is always better, even mesmer better than the "mesmer" class.

You are completely destroying the essence of the "mesmer" which is the condition "Confusion", is the only essence that has the mesmer of gw1 in gw2, do not remove it, simply, change the damage of confusion in pve.

If you pretend that the condition "Confusion" is rare and unique, try to do it only for the hypnotist, in which only the hypnotist can inflict only that condition exclusively, and eliminate completely in the other professions the probability of inflicting confusion, at least that or that do not apply as much as the warrior does now, which seems to be a laugh, a warrior who can inflict confusion better than the mirage, over a long duration...

Please, do not destroy the essence of the mesmer, confusion is its essence, it is the logical and characteristic form of the mesmer. I can only hope, the scepter, the only weapon that mesmer will have for to apply "Confusion" in a stable way.

The day that the "Confusion" of the scepter is also eliminated ... that day the mesmer of the gw2 dies, and it will be another profession that we will not recognize, in which we will miss the "mesmer" of the gw1. If that happens, I have no more to wait for a future Gw3, where the skills are more similar to the gw1, examples such as "empathy" or "detonation" (Which would be the condition "Confusion" the closest thing to gw2)

[Bofouci.1320]

@Ubi.4136 said:People keep asking why it had to be nerfed in PvE, it's because it was broken in WvW, and WvW is still using the PvE ruleset.That really seems to be the reason.

I get what you're saying here but... As someone who could care less about WvW and PVP I don't care; my spec is broken for the content I play. More over, as a consumer I don't care. The product is broken.

[Conncept.7638]

@Karl McLain.5604 said:Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

Do you guys even care about this game as an RPG anymore? I know that sounds harsh but I am genuinely questioning that right now. Because I don't see how you could make this decision and claim to be concerned about the role anyone plays in this game. You still seem to care about competition and the need some have for power and pomp, but not the actual gameplay behind an RPG.

A role playing game is one in which the primary method of play is in choice, it differs from most games because the purpose is not to comply with a set of victory parameters, but instead to fulfill your role, making choices within the context of the content.

Given that, please explain to me how this decision is not completely inexcusable.

There is now a role in the game that players are no longer permitted to play, confusion filled a fantasy, that of a trickster able to beguile an enemy to defeat their own self; and players, many players, chose to take on that fantasy and fulfill their role within that context. And that role is removed, not in support of the gameplay; nerfed with the intention to return it to play someday, or even accidentally nerfed below usability as sometimes happens; but removed, instead, in spite of the gameplay, because your team does not seem to care about one group of players fulfilling their gameplay fantasy as much as they care about another group of players fulfilling their need for competition.

And so, I cannot help but ask, do you guys actually care anymore? Or should those of use who aren't here to prove ourselves against raids and conquest just leave? As it's clear by this decision that this game is no longer made for us.

[Xstein.2187]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:Or since it sounds like hexes were specific for specific circumstances, it seems like it would be a better idea for the devs could worry more about a 'hex' feel with different future specializations so you can actually 'build' for the specific circumstance instead of getting shoehorned into it.

Wouldn't work. We simply do not have big enough variety of skills.

What do you mean? Tons of new skills and traits are added with new elite specializations. Hell, we even got a new boon, alacrity, with the first specialization that came out.The most important ones - weapon skills - are "packaged". You can't switch out one of those skills for a specific boss encounter, for example. Usually you can't really switch out the weapon either, because there's only one weapon set (sometimes two) that complements your build - others may give you additional options, but at the cost that is generally not acceptable (so, usually a massive dps loss). Also, the amount of utility skills is really pitiful compared to the wealth of options GW1 gave. Frequent respeccing (something that in gw1 was a norm) is also not sensible, considering the not so small cost associated with it.

All this is completely intentional - for devs "multitude of options" equated to a "balancing nightmare", so in GW2 they prefer everything to be simpler, but easier to manage.

@Ubi.4136 said:People keep asking why it had to be nerfed in PvE, it's because it was broken in WvW, and WvW is still using the PvE ruleset.That really seems to be the reason.Yeah, because there was no PvE/WvW skill splits in the very same patch...oh wait.

Hard to argue with you too much, but this is what I am envisioning right now. (If its actually possible is a totally different story, but no one but the devs really knows what is possible)

1. Keep confusion like it was pre balance patch with damage over time even if npcs do not use skills. Confusion increases only when opponents use weapon skills. (numbers can still be adjusted)
2. New specialization in a future expansion where traiting into the specialization actually changes the condition coefficients themselves at the cost of a much shorter max duration. (confusion shift towards doing no damage over time but mass damage when npcs use skills, torment shifts in the same way except when npcs move)
3. The specialization allows the mesmer to enter different attunements kinda like ele or rev. (switching attunements can even change your auto attack, just like weaver)
4. The new specialization gains access to glyphs that change based on the attunement. For example, a glyph could apply confusion in one attunement and torment in another.
5. You could even create other attunements with their own unique conditions for healing, other skills that are not weapon skills, etc (basically other hex types).

Basically envisioning where if you use this specialization torment and confusion last extremely short periods of time. However, you can apply mass amounts of confusion when you know the boss is going to attack, you can then switch attunements when you know the boss is going to move soon so that you can apply torment instead, etc.However, the main thing is that you are not shoehorned into using this specialization even when playing against npcs that you know don't attack or move a lot. On mesmer, you can always use the base class or other specializations to use confusion and torment as damage over time conditions against these types of npcs.

[digitalruse.9085]

Your idea of "hex based" game play is laudable (and worked well in GW1), but is incongruous with how PvE is fundamentally designed. Confusion and Torment have always been wonky conditions because in most cases enemies do not respond or react to these mechanics by slowing their attacks or standing still. You seemed to recognize this in August when you brought them closer in line with the more straightforward condis.

It seems like you all need to figure out how to give each condition a purpose while respecting the incentives and limitations in each play mode. Shooting from the hip, I'd see the current set of conditions maybe looking like:

Bleeding - Base line damage over time "formula" for duration and damage. Condition damage stat applies flatly across game modes.Burning - Condition burst - Shorter duration. Higher damage. Condition damage stat applies flatly across game modes.Poison - Control condition - Lowest damage. Longer duration. Reduced healing. Condition damage stat applies flatly across game modes.

Those were easy. I don't think your change to confusion was completely without merit; just clumsy on execution. What about this?

Confusion - Skill use punishment condition (Hex) - Low/moderate damage over time. Base duration. High damage on skill use. Condition damage stat is applied to the damage over time in PvE and the damage on skill use in PvP/WvW.

Torment - Damage on movement - Low/moderate damage over time. Base duration. High damage when moving. Condition damage stat is applied to the damage over time in PvE and the damage while moving in PvP/WvW.

This seems to give you the end result and keeps things clean and intuitive with how the encounters are likely to play out in these game modes.

Just my two copper and you further don't take a class defining condition/mechanic away just for the sake of ease.

[Bofouci.1320]

I feel like there have been a lot of negatives coming out of this patch so I thought I would express thanks for a positive. Achieving altitude on griffon mount is easier thanks to the changes. That is all.

[superherofan.8042]

Changing Mirage axe to torment doesn't address the fact that you've made confusion a complete garbage condition in PVE. That's what needs to be fixed. There is no point in taking any skill/trait that does confusion in PVE now. And, as previously stated above, also removes the flavor of confusion as a trickster spell, where Torment makes sense as a dark mage spell.

I am so pissed that I paid for inventory slots and waypoint unlocks, because I was having so much fun with Mirage (as Guardian was my main). I completely regret it now. I should ask for a refund, even if I know they'll say no...

[Rauderi.8706]

There's already a Confusion discussion: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27366/discussion-about-confusion-merged#latest

But yes, ANet, either restore the PvE version of Confusion, or make the activation damage actually worth the DPS loss from the time ticks.

[Bofouci.1320]

They're not giving refunds. Look at the other thread where they're not giving gems back for wvw server changes.

Perhaps if they spent less time making new mount skins every other day and focused on the core mechanics we'd be alright. Just doesn't seem to be the case.

[Rauderi.8706]

@digitalruse.9085 said:I don't think your change to confusion was completely without merit; just clumsy on execution. What about this?

Confusion - Skill use punishment condition (Hex) - Low/moderate damage over time. Base duration. High damage on skill use. Condition damage stat is applied to the damage over time in PvE and the damage on skill use in PvP/WvW.

Torment - Damage on movement - Low/moderate damage over time. Base duration. High damage when moving. Condition damage stat is applied to the damage over time in PvE and the damage while moving in PvP/WvW.

This seems to give you the end result and keeps things clean and intuitive with how the encounters are likely to play out in these game modes.

Just my two copper and you further don't take a class defining condition/mechanic away just for the sake of ease.

Great overall assessment. Where confusion stands post-patch is specifically bad for PvE. PvP/WvW feels like it's going as intended (though more embedded PvP folks have more to say, I'm certain.)

Confusion, PvP/WvW version:DoT: 0% Condition + 10Act: 9.75% Condition + 49.5

Let's consider that a baseline. Low tick, high damage on action.

Of course, PvE enemies don't attack at the same pace, and stalling for the duration doesn't really factor in. Considering that the typical attack rate for PvE enemies is about 1 per 3 seconds, some of the Activation damage can be shaved off for the DoT:

DoT: 3% Condition + 16Act: 8.75% Condition + 47.5

That puts Confusion at less than Bleed, but still influenced by Condition Damage per tick. ...though it still wouldn't compare to Torment. That's no good.So, PvE Torment: 6% Condition + 22 up to 9% Condition + 31.8, close to a 50% bump between states.

If Confusion is going to be the best spike damage, it needs better coefficients. Using Torment as the base, shift a few points around:DoT: 3% Condition + 11Act: 18% Condition + 55

Yeah, it looks absurd, but it has to make up for the DPS loss that is far less than even bleeding. Stack application (standardized durations / stacks from skills) might change that significantly, but if Confusion is supposed to feel like a damage spike for PvE, there needs to be mathematical impact somewhere in the formula.

Torment itself is still reasonably sound for PvE. It has base damage on par with bleed with the added penalty for movement, ~50% for PvE and ~100% for PvP.It's okay that some enemies don't move much. It just means they're less vulnerable to Torment. Lazy version of counterplay, but there it is.

And on top of it all, while it needs discussion for PvE, Retaliation is . . equally as slack. Gonna pass on that discussion for now, but it's vulnerable to all the same problems as Confusion.

[Hockmed.9417]

I'm puzzled as to how this was deemed to be a good change. The mesmer is the sole reason I play this game series, and I have to admit things like this really make me want to give it up. I don't believe for a second this had anything to do with needing to "make a decision" for the identity of confusion. Confusion was terrible in PvE for years, until it finally had a damage over time component added to make it useful against AI that doesn't do much in this game (less in organized environments due to break bar mechanics). I'm reminded of how long it took to get mesmers worth anything in PvE in GW1, as they were mostly a control based powerhouse in PVP until the devs sat down and pretty much reworked them with skill separation by game mode.

Now, after finally having the flavor of mesmer working well and in a super fun and engaging way, it was decided that the original uselessness of the primary flavor of mesmer in PvE was actually the right way to do it? We go back to 2012 and trying to stack limited duration proc-based condition damage on AI that doesn't do much of anything? That is NOT FUN GAMEPLAY. It works in PvP where actions and skill activations are frequent (and that's what the condition was designed for - control in PvP).

The only real solution to this is to revert confusion in PvE, and leave the new change in place for PvP/WvW as it should have been from the beginning. This was a lesson you should have learned from GW1. Torment is boring. Most of all, torment is not mesmer flavor.

Always taking huge steps back by changing the exact wrong things ANet. You shouldn't use dynamite when a chisel would suffice. No amount of marketing will save this game if this is the standard for decision making going forward. And it is another perfect example of why this game needs a test realm for beta runs - these are huge decisions that should never make it live without significant examination outside of the limited scope that the devs obviously have. It should be embarrassing to say something like what Karl said about axe being gutting and then adding "we'll fix it. some day. deal with it." Substandard development, a slap in the face for the mesmer community, and definitely not a good look for a company that is trying to backtrack from alienating a good part of its player base with poor decisions and bad PR over the last 3 years.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

Mesmer

Chaos Vortex: Instead of inflicting vulnerability, this attack now inflicts 1 stack of torment for 5 seconds.

HOLY KITTEN.

@Robert Gee.9246 @Karl McLain.5604 @Gaile Gray.6029I just need to take a moment here, and eat a bit of crow.

I'll share my journey on the way, in hopes that other mesmers might change their minds on condition builds post patch...

I spent the last hours creating, using level up scrolls, swapping gear, making weapons and otherwise gearing my new condi weaver, (wearing my mirage's old gear) and was happy to hit 28k with a sloppy rotation. Seriously fun. Probably not very survivable in raids, but that's probably a l2p issue for me fat fingering keys in a complex rotation. I was starting to settle down and get used to the idea of maining another class. It felt how I wanted it to, it was still raid viable (more so than my renegade even) and my mesmer's skins looked good on it.

Then this patch dropped. RIGHT AS I WAS CLICKING IN THE LAST EXPENSIVE SIGIL. I mean really? The freaking timing of you people! (/sarcasm)

I had tested the staff/staff build being tossed around on reddit, and I had found it totally wanting, the best dps I could hit was 23k. I mistakenly thought this was due to the poor bouncing of the auto attack.... Turns out it was the vulnerability making the auto do 0 condition damage 25% of the time. This ONE paltry stack of torment fixed condi mesmer.

Let me get nitty gritty for a second.

• spam ambush on cooldown - check
• spam 3 skill in between combos from the same weapon - check
• spam weapon swap on cd to restore endurance via 'sigil of energy' - check
• use deception skills that create mirage mirrors to make more ambush attacks. - check

That's the rotation. Same bloody thing, and you wont be teleported outside the arena in VG. It feels like playing axe mirage, while using phantasms... standing mostly still. Also, Chaos storm on cd, for more bonus poison damage. Staff cooldown trait in chaos which were taking anyways. I was stacking 72 bleeds all by my lonesome.

Though, let me be extremely clear AXE MIRAGE IS COMPLETELY CASTRATED OUTSIDE OF PVP. I'm not happy about this. But I can deal with my Veilrender being useless to me. I'll go finish Bo. I cant fully express my sympathy for those that made Astralara... I can only suggest trying it on a Condi Renegade. (I know, but... they've been buffed a few patches in a row, give it a whirl) Axe Mirage totally fine in open world pve. Not because confusion is any good. It isn't. But because the power damage on viper's gear and the survivability of mirage, make it easy to live forever while winning the war of attrition. But... I wouldn't take axe Mirage into fractals, open world bosses, or raids. Havent tested it in PvP, but I'm honestly excited to try it. PvP was never the issue

However, with this one tiny change, confusion isn't needed in pve.

I hit 31k. With a sloppy rotation... and right as I logged off, I realized I can distort shatter and pick up 3 mirage mirrors. So... there's more ambush potential than before... because we don't need that bloody axe trait.

I haven't worked that into my rotation yet. But.... holy cow.

A statement of intent would have been nice. I mean... you were killing a really fun meta build. You had to know that.

But... Nice spare.

[Bofouci.1320]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

Mesmer

Chaos Vortex: Instead of inflicting vulnerability, this attack now inflicts 1 stack of torment for 5 seconds.

HOLY KITTEN.

@Robert Gee.9246 @Karl McLain.5604 @Gaile Gray.6029I just need to take a moment here, and eat a bit of crow.

I'll share my journey on the way, in hopes that other mesmers might change their minds on condition builds post patch...

I spent the last hours creating, using level up scrolls, swapping gear, making weapons and otherwise gearing my new condi weaver, (wearing my mirage's old gear) and was happy to hit 28k with a sloppy rotation. Seriously fun. Probably not very survivable in raids, but that's probably a l2p issue for me fat fingering keys in a complex rotation. I was starting to settle down and get used to the idea of maining another class. It felt how I wanted it to, it was still raid viable (more so than my renegade even) and my mesmer's skins looked good on it.

Then this patch dropped. RIGHT AS I WAS CLICKING IN THE LAST EXPENSIVE SIGIL. I mean really? The freaking timing of you people! (/sarcasm)

I had tested the staff/staff build being tossed around on reddit, and I had found it totally wanting, the best dps I could hit was 23k. I mistakenly thought this was due to the poor bouncing of the auto attack.... Turns out it was the vulnerability making the auto do 0 condition damage 25% of the time. This

ONE

paltry stack of torment fixed condi mesmer.

Let me get nitty gritty for a second.

• spam ambush on cooldown -
  check
• spam 3 skill in between combos from the same weapon -
  check
• spam weapon swap on cd to restore endurance via 'sigil of energy' -
  check
• use deception skills that create mirage mirrors to make more ambush attacks. -
  check

That's the rotation.

Same bloody thing

, and you wont be teleported outside the arena in VG. It

feels

like playing axe mirage, while using phantasms... standing

mostly

still. Also, Chaos storm on cd, for more bonus poison damage. Staff cooldown trait in chaos which were taking anyways. I was stacking 72 bleeds all by my lonesome. Though, let me be extremely clear

AXE MIRAGE IS COMPLETELY CASTRATED OUTSIDE OF PVP

. I'm not happy about this. But I can deal with my Veilrender being useless to me. I'll go finish Bo. I cant fully express my sympathy for those that made Astralara... I can only suggest trying it on a Condi Renegade. (I know, but... they've been buffed a few patches in a row, give it a whirl) Axe Mirage totally fine in open world pve. Not because confusion is any good. It isn't. But because the power damage on viper's gear and the survivability of mirage, make it easy to live forever while winning the war of attrition. But... I wouldn't take axe Mirage into fractals, open world bosses, or raids. Havent tested it in PvP, but I'm honestly excited to try it.

PvP was never the issue

However, with this one tiny change, confusion

isn't needed

in pve.

I hit 31k. With a sloppy rotation... and right as I logged off, I realized I can distort shatter and pick up

3 mirage mirrors

. So... there's

more

ambush potential than before... because we don't need that bloody axe trait.

I haven't worked that into my rotation yet. But.... holy cow.

A statement of intent would have been nice. I mean... you were killing a really

fun

meta build. You had to know that.

But... Nice spare.

I get what you're saying here and understand what you're saying. Yes, it's possible that an alternative exists, but. We were given an elite spec with the opportunity to go for an elite spec weapon which many of us did. We spent hours and some i'm sure spent hard earned money to gear up. I'm not okay with not being able to use the axe I worked for and we shouldn't have to roll up every other class to work for their elite spec weapons just to move them to another class where they actually make sense and work as intended. When the mirage spec was released I rolled up a mesmer and actually kept it this time because it was finally good at PVE; to date i have logged 388 hours over the past 70 days to get it where I wanted and be proficient with the rotations for raids. That can't be for nothing... They can't keep crapping on our investment into this game like this. At some point they need to take a page from Amazon and realize that it is always about the customer. If it does not benefit all of the customers then it should not be done. We are their stakeholders and should be valued as such.

[Bofouci.1320]

@Bofouci.1320 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

Mesmer

Chaos Vortex: Instead of inflicting vulnerability, this attack now inflicts 1 stack of torment for 5 seconds.

HOLY KITTEN.

@Robert Gee.9246 @Karl McLain.5604 @Gaile Gray.6029I just need to take a moment here, and eat a bit of crow.

I'll share my journey on the way, in hopes that other mesmers might change their minds on condition builds post patch...

I spent the last hours creating, using level up scrolls, swapping gear, making weapons and otherwise gearing my new condi weaver, (wearing my mirage's old gear) and was happy to hit 28k with a sloppy rotation. Seriously fun. Probably not very survivable in raids, but that's probably a l2p issue for me fat fingering keys in a complex rotation. I was starting to settle down and get used to the idea of maining another class. It felt how I wanted it to, it was still raid viable (more so than my renegade even) and my mesmer's skins looked good on it.

Then this patch dropped. RIGHT AS I WAS CLICKING IN THE LAST EXPENSIVE SIGIL. I mean really? The freaking timing of you people! (/sarcasm)

I had tested the staff/staff build being tossed around on reddit, and I had found it totally wanting, the best dps I could hit was 23k. I mistakenly thought this was due to the poor bouncing of the auto attack.... Turns out it was the vulnerability making the auto do 0 condition damage 25% of the time. This

ONE

paltry stack of torment fixed condi mesmer.

Let me get nitty gritty for a second.

• spam ambush on cooldown -
  check
• spam 3 skill in between combos from the same weapon -
  check
• spam weapon swap on cd to restore endurance via 'sigil of energy' -
  check
• use deception skills that create mirage mirrors to make more ambush attacks. -
  check

That's the rotation.

Same bloody thing

, and you wont be teleported outside the arena in VG. It

feels

like playing axe mirage, while using phantasms... standing

mostly

still. Also, Chaos storm on cd, for more bonus poison damage. Staff cooldown trait in chaos which were taking anyways. I was stacking 72 bleeds all by my lonesome. Though, let me be extremely clear

AXE MIRAGE IS COMPLETELY CASTRATED OUTSIDE OF PVP

. I'm not happy about this. But I can deal with my Veilrender being useless to me. I'll go finish Bo. I cant fully express my sympathy for those that made Astralara... I can only suggest trying it on a Condi Renegade. (I know, but... they've been buffed a few patches in a row, give it a whirl) Axe Mirage totally fine in open world pve. Not because confusion is any good. It isn't. But because the power damage on viper's gear and the survivability of mirage, make it easy to live forever while winning the war of attrition. But... I wouldn't take axe Mirage into fractals, open world bosses, or raids. Havent tested it in PvP, but I'm honestly excited to try it.

PvP was never the issue

However, with this one tiny change, confusion

isn't needed

in pve.

I hit 31k. With a sloppy rotation... and right as I logged off, I realized I can distort shatter and pick up

3 mirage mirrors

. So... there's

more

ambush potential than before... because we don't need that bloody axe trait.

I haven't worked that into my rotation yet. But.... holy cow.

A statement of intent would have been nice. I mean... you were killing a really

fun

meta build. You had to know that.

But... Nice spare.

I get what you're saying here and understand what you're saying. Yes, it's possible that an alternative exists, but. We were given an elite spec with the opportunity to go for an elite spec weapon which many of us did. We spent hours and some i'm sure spent hard earned money to gear up. I'm not okay with not being able to use the axe I worked for and we shouldn't have to roll up every other class to work for their elite spec weapons just to move them to another class where they actually make sense and work as intended. When the mirage spec was released I rolled up a mesmer and actually kept it this time because it was finally good at PVE; to date i have logged 388 hours over the past 70 days to get it where I wanted and be proficient with the rotations for raids. That can't be for nothing... They can't keep crapping on our investment into this game like this. At some point they need to take a page from Amazon and realize that it is always about the customer. If it does not benefit all of the customers then it should not be done. We are their stakeholders and should be valued as such.

edit: we weren't given the elite spec.. we bought it. we payed money for that spec with the expansion.

[Bofouci.1320]

@Bofouci.1320 said:

@Bofouci.1320 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

Mesmer

Chaos Vortex: Instead of inflicting vulnerability, this attack now inflicts 1 stack of torment for 5 seconds.

HOLY KITTEN.

@Robert Gee.9246 @Karl McLain.5604 @Gaile Gray.6029I just need to take a moment here, and eat a bit of crow.

I'll share my journey on the way, in hopes that other mesmers might change their minds on condition builds post patch...

I spent the last hours creating, using level up scrolls, swapping gear, making weapons and otherwise gearing my new condi weaver, (wearing my mirage's old gear) and was happy to hit 28k with a sloppy rotation. Seriously fun. Probably not very survivable in raids, but that's probably a l2p issue for me fat fingering keys in a complex rotation. I was starting to settle down and get used to the idea of maining another class. It felt how I wanted it to, it was still raid viable (more so than my renegade even) and my mesmer's skins looked good on it.

Then this patch dropped. RIGHT AS I WAS CLICKING IN THE LAST EXPENSIVE SIGIL. I mean really? The freaking timing of you people! (/sarcasm)

I had tested the staff/staff build being tossed around on reddit, and I had found it totally wanting, the best dps I could hit was 23k. I mistakenly thought this was due to the poor bouncing of the auto attack.... Turns out it was the vulnerability making the auto do 0 condition damage 25% of the time. This

ONE

paltry stack of torment fixed condi mesmer.

Let me get nitty gritty for a second.

• spam ambush on cooldown -
  check
• spam 3 skill in between combos from the same weapon -
  check
• spam weapon swap on cd to restore endurance via 'sigil of energy' -
  check
• use deception skills that create mirage mirrors to make more ambush attacks. -
  check

That's the rotation.

Same bloody thing

, and you wont be teleported outside the arena in VG. It

feels

like playing axe mirage, while using phantasms... standing

mostly

still. Also, Chaos storm on cd, for more bonus poison damage. Staff cooldown trait in chaos which were taking anyways. I was stacking 72 bleeds all by my lonesome. Though, let me be extremely clear

AXE MIRAGE IS COMPLETELY CASTRATED OUTSIDE OF PVP

. I'm not happy about this. But I can deal with my Veilrender being useless to me. I'll go finish Bo. I cant fully express my sympathy for those that made Astralara... I can only suggest trying it on a Condi Renegade. (I know, but... they've been buffed a few patches in a row, give it a whirl) Axe Mirage totally fine in open world pve. Not because confusion is any good. It isn't. But because the power damage on viper's gear and the survivability of mirage, make it easy to live forever while winning the war of attrition. But... I wouldn't take axe Mirage into fractals, open world bosses, or raids. Havent tested it in PvP, but I'm honestly excited to try it.

PvP was never the issue

However, with this one tiny change, confusion

isn't needed

in pve.

I hit 31k. With a sloppy rotation... and right as I logged off, I realized I can distort shatter and pick up

3 mirage mirrors

. So... there's

more

ambush potential than before... because we don't need that bloody axe trait.

I haven't worked that into my rotation yet. But.... holy cow.

A statement of intent would have been nice. I mean... you were killing a really

fun

meta build. You had to know that.

But... Nice spare.

I get what you're saying here and understand what you're saying. Yes, it's possible that an alternative exists, but. We were given an elite spec with the opportunity to go for an elite spec weapon which many of us did. We spent hours and some i'm sure spent hard earned money to gear up. I'm not okay with not being able to use the axe I worked for and we shouldn't have to roll up every other class to work for their elite spec weapons just to move them to another class where they actually make sense and work as intended. When the mirage spec was released I rolled up a mesmer and actually kept it this time because it was finally good at PVE; to date i have logged 388 hours over the past 70 days to get it where I wanted and be proficient with the rotations for raids. That can't be for nothing... They can't keep crapping on our investment into this game like this. At some point they need to take a page from Amazon and realize that it is always about the customer. If it does not benefit all of the customers then it should not be done. We are their stakeholders and should be valued as such.

edit: we weren't given the elite spec.. we bought it. we payed money for that spec with the expansion.

The more I think about this the more I see it even worse from a consumer position. What would you do if you bought a car with leather seats in it because you really liked the performance of the leather seats. You get it home and drive it around for a couple thousand miles then the mfg posts on a forum that they believe cloth seats are better for everyone and they should be positioned in such a manner that fits the 50th percentile of drivers and that's a change they've decided they're going to do to all of the cars like the one you just bought regardless of when the purchase was made. So one day out of the blue just after you get home from work a tow truck pulls up and takes your car and brings it back a couple minutes later with cloth seats. You'd be pissed.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Issue is most pve enemies has no skills