Druid - Post 2/6/2018 Patch - Druid Players Give Feedback

[jcbroe.4329]

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

[Arheundel.6451]

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours , druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

[Arheundel.6451]

@bluri.2653 said:only nerf to druid i think they should do is make signet of stone the same as endure pain for warrior in PvP, make it 2 sec and 30 sec cd or whatever it is then im happy

Signet of Stone is a ranger utility...no druid one, what the signet got to do with druid? Core ranger and soulbeast uses the same signet....stop the circle jerking amputations to core class and fix the actual problems

[jcbroe.4329]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours ,

druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff

stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....

I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast

....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

Druid and Ranger aren't mutually exclusive and they aren't different things.

Other than everything, what don't you understand?

[Arheundel.6451]

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours ,

druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff

stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....

I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast

....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

Druid and Ranger aren't mutually exclusive and they aren't different things.

Other than everything, what don't you understand?

Druid and ranger are not mutually exclusive ?.......GW2 has managed to create more esport players than any other game in the last decade .....

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

The reason I suggest the things that I do are because I'm trying to look at it in an Anet perspective which is: "something that is realistic to suggest as a patch." In other words, Arenanet is not going to overhaul Core/Druid/Soulbeast for us. If they did, Celestial Shadow "Stealth & Super Speed Disengage" - This is something that Soulbeast needs as a DPS class, not a highly mobile Bunker. If Soulbeast were to have a trait like this for when it exits beastmode, DPS Soulbeast would become a very viable meta. This should be moved from Druid to Soulbeast. Wasn't the idea for Druid to be a team support anyway? Why was it given Thief like disengage capabilities? Again, these kinds of traits are something glass cannon DPS needs, not highly mobile Bunkers. Class trait swaps have never been done before but you could swap https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Second_Skin from Soulbeast to Druid and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Shadow from Druid to Soulbeast. They are both Master Traits so it wouldn't cause any confusion there. I'm sure Arenanet would have to rename the traits at that point but this would make Soulbeast a viable DPS, which is what old Ranger players have been crying out to have for quite some time now. Then it would intrinsically make Druid tankier but take away that over powered Bunker resetting. This would seriously lower the floor of Druid skill capping but only lower the ceiling by a little bit. Druid would have to bail 1v2s a lot sooner than normal but they would still be perfectly capable of 1v1ing on nodes without needing to leave. All the while, Soulbeast then gets to DPS without being a sitting duck to anything that can teleport on top of it.

Another thing I was thinking about very strong skills like Signet of Stone: maybe rather than nerfing these just give them drawbacks. For example, if Signet of Stone also gave the player a -50% walk/run speed while using it for those 6s, the player would need to be selective for when to use this skill, otherwise they'll just get ganked immediately when it ends and die anyway. The more I think about it, if more things like this Signet of Stone drawback were implemented, it would VERY MUCH so help the problem we have in GW2 with skill spamming. Right now everything that can be used is always a boon and only a boon to be used. There is no drawback or reason to not button mash spam skills as often as possible, in most cases. However, if there were drawbacks on more powerful skills, players would need to seriously consider when it was a good idea to use those powerful skills or if it was going to screw over their play in the end. Guild Wars 1 had a lot of skills like this and that is what made GW1 builds so much more technical to run.

But see again, I wouldn't suggest anything like this in an OP post because these are wildly large and risky changes for the balance team to even begin to consider and usually they result in a waste of time to even bring up ^^

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:The reason I suggest the things that I do are because I'm trying to look at it in an Anet perspective which is: "something that is realistic to suggest as a patch." In other words, Arenanet is not going to overhaul Core/Druid/Soulbeast for us. If they did, Celestial Shadow "Stealth & Super Speed Disengage" - This is something that Soulbeast needs as a DPS class, not a highly mobile Bunker. If Soulbeast were to have a trait like this for when it exits beastmode, DPS Soulbeast would become a very viable meta. This should be moved from Druid to Soulbeast. Wasn't the idea for Druid to be a team support anyway? Why was it given Thief like disengage capabilities? Again, these kinds of traits are something glass cannon DPS needs, not highly mobile Bunkers. Class trait swaps have never been done before but you could swap https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Second_Skin from Soulbeast to Druid and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Shadow from Druid to Soulbeast. They are both Master Traits so it wouldn't cause any confusion there. I'm sure Arenanet would have to rename the traits at that point but this would make Soulbeast a viable DPS, which is what old Ranger players have been crying out to have for quite some time now. Then it would intrinsically make Druid tankier but take away that over powered Bunker resetting. This would seriously lower the floor of Druid skill capping but only lower the ceiling by a little bit. Druid would have to bail 1v2s a lot sooner than normal but they would still be perfectly capable of 1v1ing on nodes without needing to leave. All the while, Soulbeast then gets to DPS without being a sitting duck to anything that can teleport on top of it.

Another thing I was thinking about very strong skills like Signet of Stone: maybe rather than nerfing these just give them drawbacks. For example, if Signet of Stone also gave the player a -50% walk/run speed while using it for those 6s, the player would need to be selective for when to use this skill, otherwise they'll just get ganked immediately when it ends and die anyway. The more I think about it, if more things like this Signet of Stone drawback were implemented, it would VERY MUCH so help the problem we have in GW2 with skill spamming. Right now everything that can be used is always a boon and only a boon to be used. There is no drawback or reason to not button mash spam skills as often as possible, in most cases. However, if there were drawbacks on more powerful skills, players would need to seriously consider when it was a good idea to use those powerful skills or if it was going to screw over their play in the end. Guild Wars 1 had a lot of skills like this and that is what made GW1 builds so much more technical to run.

But see again, I wouldn't suggest anything like this in an OP post because these are wildly large and risky changes for the balance team to even begin to consider and usually they result in a waste of time to even bring up ^^

Are you forgetting that signet of stone doesn't make you immune to condis and that it has 80s CD untraited?....if a new player would read this thread he would think that signet of stone is 6s direct immunity every 15s CD.

If players are asked to wait mins before be allowed to attack a war for few secs before he goes back all block/immunity...maybe players now can wait 6s every 80s...seriously how is 6s every 80s OP?

[Atmaweapon.7345]

I'd have to disagree with Druid "needing" full condi clear + stunbreak and 3s area stealth/superspeed on traits. Needing traits on this level of power most definitely means Druid is keeping Core Ranger/Soulbeast hostage when considering balance.

CA doesn't need a full condiclear AND stunbreak. No profession in the game should have a 15 second cooldown full condi clear + stun break from just a trait (That includes Mirages too.)CS shouldn't have superspeed, there's already another trait on the same line that has to do with movement. CS already prevents stomps and removes targeting, it shouldn't also give the ability to re position with impunity and dodge aoes that could counter it.

But besides these, the easiest way to hit bunker druids would be to target Live Vicariously first.

[Sindrener.1592]

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours ,

druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff

stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....

I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast

....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

Druid and Ranger aren't mutually exclusive and they aren't different things.

Other than everything, what don't you understand?

Are u legit dumb or something? Sos should be nerfed to what EP is just as core war suffers ranger should be in that position too. 6sec invul to power dmg is dumb and should be nerfed

[Arheundel.6451]

@bluri.2653 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours ,

druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff

stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....

I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast

....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

Druid and Ranger aren't mutually exclusive and they aren't different things.

Other than everything, what don't you understand?

Are u legit dumb or something? Sos should be nerfed to what EP is just as core war suffers ranger should be in that position too. 6sec invul to power dmg is dumb and should be nerfed

But EP got reduced CD with the nerfs and only for PvP, therefore if SoS must have same treatment despite having a 20s CD extra than its CD must be reduced also and in PvP only say...3s every 40-50s

[DerJoker.9081]

In my opinion, a good choice would be to change druid clarity, so it wont remove all conditions instantly.

Druid Clarity: Entering CA breaks stun. Remove Conditions as long as you are in CA.Intervall: 3 SecondsConditions removed per pulse: 3

The first pulse starts with entering CA, 3 seconds pulses afterwards.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Thank you for the context for balancing Druid. I'd appreciate if the subsequent patches don't kill the class, but bring it down just enough so people can't substitute large amounts of sustain for situational awareness.Will give my opinions in the morning, just tagging thread~

[jcbroe.4329]

@bluri.2653 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours ,

druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff

stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....

I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast

....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

Druid and Ranger aren't mutually exclusive and they aren't different things.

Other than everything, what don't you understand?

Are u legit dumb or something? Sos should be nerfed to what EP is just as core war suffers ranger should be in that position too. 6sec invul to power dmg is dumb and should be nerfed

You quoted the wrong person btw Sind, but yeah agreed.

At the very least, there's no excuse why this is the only invuln that still allows point capping contribution. That's been busted since forever.

[kappa.2036]

Honestly, there are new holosmith and mirage builds that can beat/stalemate druid on point quite easily. Spellbreaker is also good against druids, and firebrands can't be killed by them. Wait till the new meta gets defined, guys. I don't think that druid is the major threat this season.

[kin korn karn.9023]

This is absurd. You guys are talking about nerfing a class that has only one real purpose, which is holding a node. And while LB Druid is very adaptable to various situations, it does no one thing better than any other class.

Nerf Druid in any of the ways suggested in this thread, and you'll never want a ranger on your team again.

[shadowpass.4236]

@kin korn karn.9023 said:This is absurd. You guys are talking about nerfing a class that has only one real purpose, which is holding a node. And while LB Druid is very adaptable to various situations, it does no one thing better than any other class.

Nerf Druid in any of the ways suggested in this thread, and you'll never want a ranger on your team again.

Yeah I agree. Almost all of the changes suggested would completely destroy Druid.

Druid is pretty much only good at contesting side nodes. It can't hold a cap due to the stealth from CA, it can't decap without longbow, and it can't support that well due to the lack of any form of support outside of AoE healing.

Druid trolls side nodes. That's all it does. If the changes suggested were to make it into the game, Druid wouldn't even be a viable option to take in PvP anymore.

[Felipe.1807]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours ,

druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff

stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....

I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast

....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

I believe when it comes to balance, you just cant look at druid trait line alone, you have to take in consideration the other core trait lines...its the problem that we had with Spellbreakers, a Counter by itself is powerfull, but not completely broken, but if you take defence trait line, all the war stances, low cooldown shield blocks, greatsword mobility into the equation then we have a very powerfull spec...The nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 wouldnt really hurt Druid at all:1º Instead of full condi cleanse, 2 cleanse per second for 6 secs...this can easily been seeing as a buff, i mean, who here actually ever got hit by 13 conditions(not gonna bother to look, but thats not basically the number of condis we have on game?)...with this change, now you basically immune to condi builds that cant put 4~5 constant cover condis on you, , Burn Guard went from easy to deal with to be able to completely ignore him lol...2º 1 sec less on Stealth and Hyperspeed wont make a diference, still is gonna be enough to druid disengage combat at will without being able to be punished.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:The reason I suggest the things that I do are because I'm trying to look at it in an Anet perspective which is: "something that is realistic to suggest as a patch." In other words, Arenanet is not going to overhaul Core/Druid/Soulbeast for us. If they did, Celestial Shadow "Stealth & Super Speed Disengage" - This is something that Soulbeast needs as a DPS class, not a highly mobile Bunker. If Soulbeast were to have a trait like this for when it exits beastmode, DPS Soulbeast would become a very viable meta. This should be moved from Druid to Soulbeast. Wasn't the idea for Druid to be a team support anyway? Why was it given Thief like disengage capabilities? Again, these kinds of traits are something glass cannon DPS needs, not highly mobile Bunkers. Class trait swaps have never been done before but you could swap https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Second_Skin from Soulbeast to Druid and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Shadow from Druid to Soulbeast. They are both Master Traits so it wouldn't cause any confusion there. I'm sure Arenanet would have to rename the traits at that point but this would make Soulbeast a viable DPS, which is what old Ranger players have been crying out to have for quite some time now. Then it would intrinsically make Druid tankier but take away that over powered Bunker resetting. This would seriously lower the floor of Druid skill capping but only lower the ceiling by a little bit. Druid would have to bail 1v2s a lot sooner than normal but they would still be perfectly capable of 1v1ing on nodes without needing to leave. All the while, Soulbeast then gets to DPS without being a sitting duck to anything that can teleport on top of it.

Another thing I was thinking about very strong skills like Signet of Stone: maybe rather than nerfing these just give them drawbacks. For example, if Signet of Stone also gave the player a -50% walk/run speed while using it for those 6s, the player would need to be selective for when to use this skill, otherwise they'll just get ganked immediately when it ends and die anyway. The more I think about it, if more things like this Signet of Stone drawback were implemented, it would VERY MUCH so help the problem we have in GW2 with skill spamming. Right now everything that can be used is always a boon and only a boon to be used. There is no drawback or reason to not button mash spam skills as often as possible, in most cases. However, if there were drawbacks on more powerful skills, players would need to seriously consider when it was a good idea to use those powerful skills or if it was going to screw over their play in the end. Guild Wars 1 had a lot of skills like this and that is what made GW1 builds so much more technical to run.

But see again, I wouldn't suggest anything like this in an OP post because these are wildly large and risky changes for the balance team to even begin to consider and usually they result in a waste of time to even bring up ^^

The idea of drawbacks...i like this, the game used to be like this, remenber old Frenzy from Warrior? Used to be like 100%( or 50%) action speed, but you would take 50% more damage(dont think endure pain was thing back in the day)...Ranger quicknees skill used to work likes too, guess you didnt get healing effects while using it, Thief if i am not mistaken lost all endurance or something...lol Signet of Stone is probably one of the most powercreeped skill on the game, it used to affect only your pet. If Ranger wished to survive they used to have pick sword/dagger and used the evade frames that these weapons gave, now is all about facetanking with Signet of Stone(double if you have traited lol) and just destroy everything on you path with greatsword lol such a skillfull gameplay.( I know that all professions got powercreeped to the extreme, but this is Ranger/Druid thread)

[kin korn karn.9023]

@shadowpass.4236 said:Yeah I agree. Almost all of the changes suggested would completely destroy Druid.

Druid is pretty much only good at contesting side nodes. It can't hold a cap due to the stealth from CA, it can't decap without longbow, and it can't support that well due to the lack of any form of support outside of AoE healing.

Druid trolls side nodes. That's all it does. If the changes suggested were to make it into the game, Druid wouldn't even be a viable option to take in PvP anymore.

It’s so incredibly stupid. This class is great at so little, people want it to be an easy 1v1 as well. I play LB Druid fairly frequently, and it’s hilarious how many idiot Scourges, for example, I see running up solo to contest the node I’ve just finished capping. Then they lose the 1v1 obviously and come here to QQ in this thread, I guess.

Side note: while a full bunker Druid can go longer without needing to use CA, you bring up a good point that the class doesn’t even hold the node all that well due to stealth, at least if you can manage to pressure the Druid into using it. (And if you can’t, you shouldn’t be contesting anyway.)

Basically every complaint in this thread is L2P issues.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours ,

druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff

stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....

I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast

....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

I believe when it comes to balance, you just cant look at druid trait line alone, you have to take in consideration the other core trait lines...its the problem that we had with Spellbreakers, a Counter by itself is powerfull, but not completely broken, but if you take defence trait line, all the war stances, low cooldown shield blocks, greatsword mobility into the equation then we have a very powerfull spec...The nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 wouldnt really hurt Druid at all:1º Instead of full condi cleanse, 2 cleanse per second for 6 secs...this can easily been seeing as a buff, i mean, who here actually ever got hit by 13 conditions(not gonna bother to look, but thats not basically the number of condis we have on game?)...with this change, now you basically immune to condi builds that cant put 4~5 constant cover condis on you, , Burn Guard went from easy to deal with to be able to completely ignore him lol...2º 1 sec less on Stealth and Hyperspeed wont make a diference, still is gonna be enough to druid disengage combat at will without being able to be punished.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:The reason I suggest the things that I do are because I'm trying to look at it in an Anet perspective which is: "something that is realistic to suggest as a patch." In other words, Arenanet is not going to overhaul Core/Druid/Soulbeast for us. If they did, Celestial Shadow "Stealth & Super Speed Disengage" - This is something that Soulbeast needs as a DPS class, not a highly mobile Bunker. If Soulbeast were to have a trait like this for when it exits beastmode, DPS Soulbeast would become a very viable meta. This should be moved from Druid to Soulbeast. Wasn't the idea for Druid to be a team support anyway? Why was it given Thief like disengage capabilities? Again, these kinds of traits are something glass cannon DPS needs, not highly mobile Bunkers. Class trait swaps have never been done before but you could swap

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Second_Skin

from Soulbeast to Druid and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Shadow

from Druid to Soulbeast. They are both Master Traits so it wouldn't cause any confusion there. I'm sure Arenanet would have to rename the traits at that point but this would make Soulbeast a viable DPS, which is what old Ranger players have been crying out to have for quite some time now. Then it would intrinsically make Druid tankier but take away that over powered Bunker resetting. This would seriously lower the floor of Druid skill capping but only lower the ceiling by a little bit. Druid would have to bail 1v2s a lot sooner than normal but they would still be perfectly capable of 1v1ing on nodes without needing to leave. All the while, Soulbeast then gets to DPS without being a sitting duck to anything that can teleport on top of it.

Another thing I was thinking about very strong skills like Signet of Stone: maybe rather than nerfing these just give them drawbacks. For example, if Signet of Stone also gave the player a -50% walk/run speed while using it for those 6s, the player would need to be selective for when to use this skill, otherwise they'll just get ganked immediately when it ends and die anyway. The more I think about it, if more things like this Signet of Stone drawback were implemented, it would VERY MUCH so help the problem we have in GW2 with skill spamming. Right now everything that can be used is always a boon and only a boon to be used. There is no drawback or reason to not button mash spam skills as often as possible, in most cases. However, if there were drawbacks on more powerful skills, players would need to seriously consider when it was a good idea to use those powerful skills or if it was going to screw over their play in the end. Guild Wars 1 had a lot of skills like this and that is what made GW1 builds so much more technical to run.

But see again, I wouldn't suggest anything like this in an OP post because these are wildly large and risky changes for the balance team to even begin to consider and usually they result in a waste of time to even bring up ^^

The idea of drawbacks...i like this, the game used to be like this, remenber old Frenzy from Warrior? Used to be like 100%( or 50%) action speed, but you would take 50% more damage(dont think endure pain was thing back in the day)...Ranger quicknees skill used to work likes too, guess you didnt get healing effects while using it, Thief if i am not mistaken lost all endurance or something...lol Signet of Stone is probably one of the most powercreeped skill on the game, it used to affect only your pet. If Ranger wished to survive they used to have pick sword/dagger and used the evade frames that these weapons gave, now is all about facetanking with Signet of Stone(double if you have traited lol) and just destroy everything on you path with greatsword lol such a skillfull gameplay.( I know that all professions got powercreeped to the extreme, but this is Ranger/Druid thread)

If you get hit once by a Scourge or Mirage, you'll have pretty much every condition on you. Druidic Clarity literally saves you from being 1 shot by condi.

Have you actually tried to remain in CA while taking focus fire from a Scourge/Mirage? You'll die if you don't stealth immediatedly after cleansing. Cleansing 2 conditions periodically while remaining in CA = death.

For example:

1. You have 8 conditions on you
2. You pop CA
3. You now have 6 conditions on you
4. 1 second later you have 8 conditions on you again
5. 1 second later you have 6 conditions on you again
6. 1 second later you have 8 conditions on you again
7. Dead.

If you want to completely butcher Druidic Clarity and Druid's viability in any sort of meta whatsoever, make Druidic Clarity a cleanse over time.

Also, if you honestly think that the current Druid meta is to pop Signet of Stone and facetank any class while "destroying them" with gs, you actually have no concept of PvP. Btw, no one traits double SoS.

[Felipe.1807]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours ,

druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff

stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....

I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast

....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

I believe when it comes to balance, you just cant look at druid trait line alone, you have to take in consideration the other core trait lines...its the problem that we had with Spellbreakers, a Counter by itself is powerfull, but not completely broken, but if you take defence trait line, all the war stances, low cooldown shield blocks, greatsword mobility into the equation then we have a very powerfull spec...The nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 wouldnt really hurt Druid at all:1º Instead of full condi cleanse, 2 cleanse per second for 6 secs...this can easily been seeing as a buff, i mean, who here actually ever got hit by 13 conditions(not gonna bother to look, but thats not basically the number of condis we have on game?)...with this change, now you basically immune to condi builds that cant put 4~5 constant cover condis on you, , Burn Guard went from easy to deal with to be able to completely ignore him lol...2º 1 sec less on Stealth and Hyperspeed wont make a diference, still is gonna be enough to druid disengage combat at will without being able to be punished.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:The reason I suggest the things that I do are because I'm trying to look at it in an Anet perspective which is: "something that is realistic to suggest as a patch." In other words, Arenanet is not going to overhaul Core/Druid/Soulbeast for us. If they did, Celestial Shadow "Stealth & Super Speed Disengage" - This is something that Soulbeast needs as a DPS class, not a highly mobile Bunker. If Soulbeast were to have a trait like this for when it exits beastmode, DPS Soulbeast would become a very viable meta. This should be moved from Druid to Soulbeast. Wasn't the idea for Druid to be a team support anyway? Why was it given Thief like disengage capabilities? Again, these kinds of traits are something glass cannon DPS needs, not highly mobile Bunkers. Class trait swaps have never been done before but you could swap

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Second_Skin

from Soulbeast to Druid and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Shadow

from Druid to Soulbeast. They are both Master Traits so it wouldn't cause any confusion there. I'm sure Arenanet would have to rename the traits at that point but this would make Soulbeast a viable DPS, which is what old Ranger players have been crying out to have for quite some time now. Then it would intrinsically make Druid tankier but take away that over powered Bunker resetting. This would seriously lower the floor of Druid skill capping but only lower the ceiling by a little bit. Druid would have to bail 1v2s a lot sooner than normal but they would still be perfectly capable of 1v1ing on nodes without needing to leave. All the while, Soulbeast then gets to DPS without being a sitting duck to anything that can teleport on top of it.

Another thing I was thinking about very strong skills like Signet of Stone: maybe rather than nerfing these just give them drawbacks. For example, if Signet of Stone also gave the player a -50% walk/run speed while using it for those 6s, the player would need to be selective for when to use this skill, otherwise they'll just get ganked immediately when it ends and die anyway. The more I think about it, if more things like this Signet of Stone drawback were implemented, it would VERY MUCH so help the problem we have in GW2 with skill spamming. Right now everything that can be used is always a boon and only a boon to be used. There is no drawback or reason to not button mash spam skills as often as possible, in most cases. However, if there were drawbacks on more powerful skills, players would need to seriously consider when it was a good idea to use those powerful skills or if it was going to screw over their play in the end. Guild Wars 1 had a lot of skills like this and that is what made GW1 builds so much more technical to run.

But see again, I wouldn't suggest anything like this in an OP post because these are wildly large and risky changes for the balance team to even begin to consider and usually they result in a waste of time to even bring up ^^

The idea of drawbacks...i like this, the game used to be like this, remenber old Frenzy from Warrior? Used to be like 100%( or 50%) action speed, but you would take 50% more damage(dont think endure pain was thing back in the day)...Ranger quicknees skill used to work likes too, guess you didnt get healing effects while using it, Thief if i am not mistaken lost all endurance or something...lol Signet of Stone is probably one of the most powercreeped skill on the game, it used to affect only your pet. If Ranger wished to survive they used to have pick sword/dagger and used the evade frames that these weapons gave, now is all about facetanking with Signet of Stone(double if you have traited lol) and just destroy everything on you path with greatsword lol such a skillfull gameplay.( I know that all professions got powercreeped to the extreme, but this is Ranger/Druid thread)

If you get hit once by a Scourge or Mirage, you'll have pretty much every condition on you. Druidic Clarity literally saves you from being 1 shot by condi.

Have you actually tried to remain in CA while taking focus fire from a Scourge/Mirage? You'll die if you don't stealth immediatedly after cleansing. Cleansing 2 conditions periodically while remaining in CA = death.

For example:

1. You have 8 conditions on you
2. You pop CA
3. You now have 6 conditions on you
4. 1 second later you have 8 conditions on you again
5. 1 second later you have 6 conditions on you again
6. 1 second later you have 8 conditions on you again
7. Dead.

If you want to completely butcher Druidic Clarity and Druid's viability in any sort of meta whatsoever, make Druidic Clarity a cleanse over time.

Also, if you honestly think that the current Druid meta is to pop Signet of Stone and facetank

any

class while "destroying them" with gs, you actually have no concept of PvP. Btw, no one traits double SoS.

When did i say that Druid meta on sPvP is to "pop Signet of Stone and facetank any class while "destroying them" with gs"...your example of using SoS against Scourge/Mirage(assume you talking about Condi ones) dosent even make sense lol, SoS is only immunity to power damage, its obvious that with you try to meele down a Scourge he will destroy you and SoS wont do anything against it...your argument about Druid needing full condi cleanse fails to convince me, simple cause the same can be said about every single porfession on this game... if I get condi bursted by Mirage/Scourge with Guardian and Contemplation of Purity is on cooldown, i am dead...even if is not on cd, if I fail to dodge the second condi burst i will be condi overloaded and die, the only diference is that I dont have Stealth, superspeed and some decent mobility to remove me from combat.To me, you guys got so used to have this broken CA, that you cant even picture yourself playing without it, simple cause is so strong that taking any other trait choice is basically handicapping yourself hardcore.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Felipe.1807 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours ,

druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff

stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....

I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast

....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

I believe when it comes to balance, you just cant look at druid trait line alone, you have to take in consideration the other core trait lines...its the problem that we had with Spellbreakers, a Counter by itself is powerfull, but not completely broken, but if you take defence trait line, all the war stances, low cooldown shield blocks, greatsword mobility into the equation then we have a very powerfull spec...The nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 wouldnt really hurt Druid at all:1º Instead of full condi cleanse, 2 cleanse per second for 6 secs...this can easily been seeing as a buff, i mean, who here actually ever got hit by 13 conditions(not gonna bother to look, but thats not basically the number of condis we have on game?)...with this change, now you basically immune to condi builds that cant put 4~5 constant cover condis on you, , Burn Guard went from easy to deal with to be able to completely ignore him lol...2º 1 sec less on Stealth and Hyperspeed wont make a diference, still is gonna be enough to druid disengage combat at will without being able to be punished.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:The reason I suggest the things that I do are because I'm trying to look at it in an Anet perspective which is: "something that is realistic to suggest as a patch." In other words, Arenanet is not going to overhaul Core/Druid/Soulbeast for us. If they did, Celestial Shadow "Stealth & Super Speed Disengage" - This is something that Soulbeast needs as a DPS class, not a highly mobile Bunker. If Soulbeast were to have a trait like this for when it exits beastmode, DPS Soulbeast would become a very viable meta. This should be moved from Druid to Soulbeast. Wasn't the idea for Druid to be a team support anyway? Why was it given Thief like disengage capabilities? Again, these kinds of traits are something glass cannon DPS needs, not highly mobile Bunkers. Class trait swaps have never been done before but you could swap

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Second_Skin

from Soulbeast to Druid and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Shadow

from Druid to Soulbeast. They are both Master Traits so it wouldn't cause any confusion there. I'm sure Arenanet would have to rename the traits at that point but this would make Soulbeast a viable DPS, which is what old Ranger players have been crying out to have for quite some time now. Then it would intrinsically make Druid tankier but take away that over powered Bunker resetting. This would seriously lower the floor of Druid skill capping but only lower the ceiling by a little bit. Druid would have to bail 1v2s a lot sooner than normal but they would still be perfectly capable of 1v1ing on nodes without needing to leave. All the while, Soulbeast then gets to DPS without being a sitting duck to anything that can teleport on top of it.

Another thing I was thinking about very strong skills like Signet of Stone: maybe rather than nerfing these just give them drawbacks. For example, if Signet of Stone also gave the player a -50% walk/run speed while using it for those 6s, the player would need to be selective for when to use this skill, otherwise they'll just get ganked immediately when it ends and die anyway. The more I think about it, if more things like this Signet of Stone drawback were implemented, it would VERY MUCH so help the problem we have in GW2 with skill spamming. Right now everything that can be used is always a boon and only a boon to be used. There is no drawback or reason to not button mash spam skills as often as possible, in most cases. However, if there were drawbacks on more powerful skills, players would need to seriously consider when it was a good idea to use those powerful skills or if it was going to screw over their play in the end. Guild Wars 1 had a lot of skills like this and that is what made GW1 builds so much more technical to run.

But see again, I wouldn't suggest anything like this in an OP post because these are wildly large and risky changes for the balance team to even begin to consider and usually they result in a waste of time to even bring up ^^

The idea of drawbacks...i like this, the game used to be like this, remenber old Frenzy from Warrior? Used to be like 100%( or 50%) action speed, but you would take 50% more damage(dont think endure pain was thing back in the day)...Ranger quicknees skill used to work likes too, guess you didnt get healing effects while using it, Thief if i am not mistaken lost all endurance or something...lol Signet of Stone is probably one of the most powercreeped skill on the game, it used to affect only your pet. If Ranger wished to survive they used to have pick sword/dagger and used the evade frames that these weapons gave, now is all about facetanking with Signet of Stone(double if you have traited lol) and just destroy everything on you path with greatsword lol such a skillfull gameplay.( I know that all professions got powercreeped to the extreme, but this is Ranger/Druid thread)

If you get hit once by a Scourge or Mirage, you'll have pretty much every condition on you. Druidic Clarity literally saves you from being 1 shot by condi.

Have you actually tried to remain in CA while taking focus fire from a Scourge/Mirage? You'll die if you don't stealth immediatedly after cleansing. Cleansing 2 conditions periodically while remaining in CA = death.

For example:

1. You have 8 conditions on you
2. You pop CA
3. You now have 6 conditions on you
4. 1 second later you have 8 conditions on you again
5. 1 second later you have 6 conditions on you again
6. 1 second later you have 8 conditions on you again
7. Dead.

If you want to completely butcher Druidic Clarity and Druid's viability in any sort of meta whatsoever, make Druidic Clarity a cleanse over time.

Also, if you honestly think that the current Druid meta is to pop Signet of Stone and facetank

any

class while "destroying them" with gs, you actually have no concept of PvP. Btw, no one traits double SoS.

When did i say that Druid meta on sPvP is to "pop Signet of Stone and facetank

any

class while "destroying them" with gs"

"now is all about facetanking with Signet of Stone(double if you have traited lol) and just destroy everything on you path with greatsword lol such a skillfull gameplay"

@Felipe.1807 said:...your example of using SoS against Scourge/Mirage(assume you talking about Condi ones) dosent even make sense lol, SoS is only immunity to power damage, its obvious that with you try to meele down a Scourge he will destroy you and SoS wont do anything against it...your argument about Druid needing full condi cleanse fails to convince me, simple cause the same can be said about every single porfession on this game... if I get condi bursted by Mirage/Scourge with Guardian and Contemplation of Purity is on cooldown, i am dead...even if is not on cd, if I fail to dodge the second condi burst i will be condi overloaded and die, the only diference is that I dont have Stealth, superspeed and some decent mobility to remove me from combat.

You are literally arguing against yourself here. That is exactly my point... You're advocating for removing our Burst Condi Cleanse and replacing it with Cleanse Over Time. If Contemplation of Purity were to cleanse 2 conditions periodically, rather than cleansing all conditions instantly, it would be significantly worse and wouldn't be worth taking in the current meta.

To me, you guys got so used to have this broken CA, that you cant even picture yourself playing without it, simple cause is so strong that taking any other trait choice is basically handicapping yourself hardcore.

Yes. I would say that us Druids have gotten so used to OUR F*CKING class mechanic that it's hard to imagine ourselves playing without it. Anything else you want to say Captain Obvious? Are you Firebrands used to your tomes? Is it hard for you to picture yourself playing without them?

[kin korn karn.9023]

@"Felipe.1807" said:When did i say that Druid meta on sPvP is to "pop Signet of Stone and facetank any class while "destroying them" with gs"...

Lol you said this almost word for word in the post he quoted.

! > now is all about facetanking with Signet of Stone(double if you have traited lol) and just destroy everything on you path with greatsword

if I get condi bursted by Mirage/Scourge with Guardian and Contemplation of Purity is on cooldown, i am dead...even if is not on cd, if I fail to dodge the second condi burst i will be condi overloaded and die, the only diference is that I dont have Stealth, superspeed and some decent mobility to remove me from combat.I mean FB only has CoP, pulsing resistance, regen out the wazoo, loads of stability and protection, instant cast heals and condi clears, etc etc etc. In other words nothing but CoP, right?

[jcbroe.4329]

@Felipe.1807 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours ,

druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff

stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....

I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast

....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

I believe when it comes to balance, you just cant look at druid trait line alone, you have to take in consideration the other core trait lines...its the problem that we had with Spellbreakers, a Counter by itself is powerfull, but not completely broken, but if you take defence trait line, all the war stances, low cooldown shield blocks, greatsword mobility into the equation then we have a very powerfull spec...The nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 wouldnt really hurt Druid at all:1º Instead of full condi cleanse, 2 cleanse per second for 6 secs...this can easily been seeing as a buff, i mean, who here actually ever got hit by 13 conditions(not gonna bother to look, but thats not basically the number of condis we have on game?)...with this change, now you basically immune to condi builds that cant put 4~5 constant cover condis on you, , Burn Guard went from easy to deal with to be able to completely ignore him lol...2º 1 sec less on Stealth and Hyperspeed wont make a diference, still is gonna be enough to druid disengage combat at will without being able to be punished.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:The reason I suggest the things that I do are because I'm trying to look at it in an Anet perspective which is: "something that is realistic to suggest as a patch." In other words, Arenanet is not going to overhaul Core/Druid/Soulbeast for us. If they did, Celestial Shadow "Stealth & Super Speed Disengage" - This is something that Soulbeast needs as a DPS class, not a highly mobile Bunker. If Soulbeast were to have a trait like this for when it exits beastmode, DPS Soulbeast would become a very viable meta. This should be moved from Druid to Soulbeast. Wasn't the idea for Druid to be a team support anyway? Why was it given Thief like disengage capabilities? Again, these kinds of traits are something glass cannon DPS needs, not highly mobile Bunkers. Class trait swaps have never been done before but you could swap

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Second_Skin

from Soulbeast to Druid and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Shadow

from Druid to Soulbeast. They are both Master Traits so it wouldn't cause any confusion there. I'm sure Arenanet would have to rename the traits at that point but this would make Soulbeast a viable DPS, which is what old Ranger players have been crying out to have for quite some time now. Then it would intrinsically make Druid tankier but take away that over powered Bunker resetting. This would seriously lower the floor of Druid skill capping but only lower the ceiling by a little bit. Druid would have to bail 1v2s a lot sooner than normal but they would still be perfectly capable of 1v1ing on nodes without needing to leave. All the while, Soulbeast then gets to DPS without being a sitting duck to anything that can teleport on top of it.

Another thing I was thinking about very strong skills like Signet of Stone: maybe rather than nerfing these just give them drawbacks. For example, if Signet of Stone also gave the player a -50% walk/run speed while using it for those 6s, the player would need to be selective for when to use this skill, otherwise they'll just get ganked immediately when it ends and die anyway. The more I think about it, if more things like this Signet of Stone drawback were implemented, it would VERY MUCH so help the problem we have in GW2 with skill spamming. Right now everything that can be used is always a boon and only a boon to be used. There is no drawback or reason to not button mash spam skills as often as possible, in most cases. However, if there were drawbacks on more powerful skills, players would need to seriously consider when it was a good idea to use those powerful skills or if it was going to screw over their play in the end. Guild Wars 1 had a lot of skills like this and that is what made GW1 builds so much more technical to run.

But see again, I wouldn't suggest anything like this in an OP post because these are wildly large and risky changes for the balance team to even begin to consider and usually they result in a waste of time to even bring up ^^

The idea of drawbacks...i like this, the game used to be like this, remenber old Frenzy from Warrior? Used to be like 100%( or 50%) action speed, but you would take 50% more damage(dont think endure pain was thing back in the day)...Ranger quicknees skill used to work likes too, guess you didnt get healing effects while using it, Thief if i am not mistaken lost all endurance or something...lol Signet of Stone is probably one of the most powercreeped skill on the game, it used to affect only your pet. If Ranger wished to survive they used to have pick sword/dagger and used the evade frames that these weapons gave, now is all about facetanking with Signet of Stone(double if you have traited lol) and just destroy everything on you path with greatsword lol such a skillfull gameplay.( I know that all professions got powercreeped to the extreme, but this is Ranger/Druid thread)

If you get hit once by a Scourge or Mirage, you'll have pretty much every condition on you. Druidic Clarity literally saves you from being 1 shot by condi.

Have you actually tried to remain in CA while taking focus fire from a Scourge/Mirage? You'll die if you don't stealth immediatedly after cleansing. Cleansing 2 conditions periodically while remaining in CA = death.

For example:

1. You have 8 conditions on you
2. You pop CA
3. You now have 6 conditions on you
4. 1 second later you have 8 conditions on you again
5. 1 second later you have 6 conditions on you again
6. 1 second later you have 8 conditions on you again
7. Dead.

If you want to completely butcher Druidic Clarity and Druid's viability in any sort of meta whatsoever, make Druidic Clarity a cleanse over time.

Also, if you honestly think that the current Druid meta is to pop Signet of Stone and facetank

any

class while "destroying them" with gs, you actually have no concept of PvP. Btw, no one traits double SoS.

When did i say that Druid meta on sPvP is to "pop Signet of Stone and facetank

any

class while "destroying them" with gs"...your example of using SoS against Scourge/Mirage(assume you talking about Condi ones) dosent even make sense lol, SoS is only immunity to power damage, its obvious that with you try to meele down a Scourge he will destroy you and SoS wont do anything against it...your argument about Druid needing full condi cleanse fails to convince me, simple cause the same can be said about every single porfession on this game... if I get condi bursted by Mirage/Scourge with Guardian and Contemplation of Purity is on cooldown, i am dead...even if is not on cd, if I fail to dodge the second condi burst i will be condi overloaded and die, the only diference is that I dont have Stealth, superspeed and some decent mobility to remove me from combat.To me, you guys got so used to have this broken CA, that you cant even picture yourself playing without it, simple cause is so strong that taking any other trait choice is basically handicapping yourself hardcore.

Personally, I think that the right build on Core Ranger has more than enough utility and capability of performing everything that Druid can perform as a combat role, minus the AoE healing.

And that was before the patch: http://www.twitch.tv/itsjroh/v/221023154?sr=a&t=1s

And that once you guys are done nerfing Druid the wrong way, you'd still complain about it and then asks for nerfs to regular Ranger.

[Felipe.1807]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arheundel.6451 Yup, some of the suggestions seem to be from players who don't understand Druid play.

Druid needs:

• Stun break and condi removal from DC
• Stealth & super speed from CS

The above needs -slight- nerfs but if they were tinkered with too much, Druid would lose all viability.

Actually doesn't the reliance on these two traits show how busted is the ranger class when it comes to self-sustain?I see druid used virtually everywhere and not even in wvw soulbeast fare that well, the meta status of druid clearly show how the game has evolved and unfortunately the sustain of some classes hasn't ; soulbeast needs massive sustain buffs.

I used to enjoy soulbeast, but people with time got accustomed to it, everybody now knows that the spec only has bigger burst over druid so they will all play the "long" game, knowing that soulbeast merely has core ranger sustain

I assume the nerfs you propose are for PvP only

, therefore I can get on board with your line of thought, I have no problems, those nerfs are quite fair

as long as they're limited to PvP

.

It's true that druid reset a lot.... but so does every other meta and with the same easy to apply process:

-warrior has 2x endure pain, passive heal burst, heal on burst, pulsing stab, perma resistance, blocks, leaps etc etc etc-engi has 2x elixir s , perma protection, perma stab, regen, vigor, stealth, loads of CC and a heal skill ( healing turret ) to reset fights several times-mesmer and thief...we know how much goes for them-guardian..can't be bothered to list all reset abilities..too many to count

Basically

meta= massive sustain powercreep + dmg

, really if we nerf druid...then we should nerf all the rest also

allright, been playing guard since a long time ago, i probably played the wrong builds or something...where are all the reset abilities that guard have? So much that you cant even count!! kitten, please make a list to me of all these skills, having trouble on WvW with all the Holosmiths, Warriors, Thiefs, Druids, etc with that hit and run kind of gameplay, having these "reset abilities" for sure will help a little bit...

But for Druid, as I said before, and I believe most people would agree with me, what makes Druid completely broken is Celestial Avatar full condi cleanse, stealth and hyperspeed, to much for a single skill with such short cooldown...as long Druid have this, nothing will change.

The fact that you think, or at least perceive it as a cooldown instead of as a resource mechanic that has to built and managed is such a good illustration of what the actual issue with the meta build setup is.

I said the cooldown cause never see a single druid(myself included) having trouble managing Astral Force, after all, you get in CA, use one or two skills just to heal up a little up, and then get out of CA, when its off cooldown you allready have enough Astral Force to use Celestial Avatar again.

No, see, you're right. That's exactly my point.

Why do you think you don't see Shout Druid builds anymore, or builds using Glyphs or Healing Spring?

Troll Unguent + Live Vicariously + Water Runes is 26 healing ticks that refill Astral Force, with no counterplay. Live Vicariously doubles the healing ticks obtained by staff by just autoing through the pet, with no counterplay.

Signet of Renewal was buffed, you used to have to take another signet to get passive healing and the skillbar couldn't afford it, that's another potential 2 ticks per second, no counterplay.

Then of course, the main offender, Rugged Growth with the insane healing scaling and relatively little counterplay.

On top of nearly maintainable Regen, of course.

Compare all of that to the prior metabuild, the shout build. It had 20 Healing ticks total to generate Celestial force from Regen that was gained by the heal skill, and only in a teamfight, 8 total in a 1v1, which was counterable by boon rip and by interrupting Heal as One. With Dolyak Runes, same timeframe, 16 ticks in a 1v1 with 8 of them counterable, 26 ONLY in a teamfight, most of those counterable as well since they were Regen based.

The build took Dolyak Runes just to compensate for the lack of Astral Force building options, and even then, it was not quick at doing so, and because it was a burst healing based build that was not constantly healing every second CA was unavailable, it had lots of counterplay.

The issue isn't the cooldown, and it isn't the Druid traits. It's that Druid players have access to a build combination that allows them to stack tons of Healing sources with very little counterplay and brute force generate Astral Force to have CA available on cooldown, with very little effort from the Druid player and very few, very small windows of opportunity from enemies that can be almost completely negated if Signet of Renewal or Signet of Stone are up.

What I had suggested is that this particular build setup needs to see significant changes in how capable it is at generating Astral Force with no counterplay, especially when it vastly outperforms the next best Druid build, meaning that it isn't even balanced in a vacuum, let alone against the rest of the game.

What next druid build?You have been preaching the same mantra for months now : " nerf rugged growth, nerf troll unguent..yeah nerf core skill to balance druid" and yet people are complaining about druid and not core ranger or soulbeast who have access to same core skills, so accordingly to your distorted sense of logic we should nerf core skills, further weakening builds which are not even meta, all in a bid to keep druid as it is.

Bloody ofc druid will be "reduced" if you nerf entire profession around it D'HOOOO, but it's utter non-sense to suggest nerfs like yours ,

druid has been meta since HoT launch, way before rugged growth or any other core ranger buff

stop with your non-sense!!

Troll unguent? rugged growth?.....

I don't see this massive healing if using soulbeast

....the nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 are on point at 100%

I believe when it comes to balance, you just cant look at druid trait line alone, you have to take in consideration the other core trait lines...its the problem that we had with Spellbreakers, a Counter by itself is powerfull, but not completely broken, but if you take defence trait line, all the war stances, low cooldown shield blocks, greatsword mobility into the equation then we have a very powerfull spec...The nerfs suggested by @Trevor Boyer.6524 wouldnt really hurt Druid at all:1º Instead of full condi cleanse, 2 cleanse per second for 6 secs...this can easily been seeing as a buff, i mean, who here actually ever got hit by 13 conditions(not gonna bother to look, but thats not basically the number of condis we have on game?)...with this change, now you basically immune to condi builds that cant put 4~5 constant cover condis on you, , Burn Guard went from easy to deal with to be able to completely ignore him lol...2º 1 sec less on Stealth and Hyperspeed wont make a diference, still is gonna be enough to druid disengage combat at will without being able to be punished.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:The reason I suggest the things that I do are because I'm trying to look at it in an Anet perspective which is: "something that is realistic to suggest as a patch." In other words, Arenanet is not going to overhaul Core/Druid/Soulbeast for us. If they did, Celestial Shadow "Stealth & Super Speed Disengage" - This is something that Soulbeast needs as a DPS class, not a highly mobile Bunker. If Soulbeast were to have a trait like this for when it exits beastmode, DPS Soulbeast would become a very viable meta. This should be moved from Druid to Soulbeast. Wasn't the idea for Druid to be a team support anyway? Why was it given Thief like disengage capabilities? Again, these kinds of traits are something glass cannon DPS needs, not highly mobile Bunkers. Class trait swaps have never been done before but you could swap

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Second_Skin

from Soulbeast to Druid and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Shadow

from Druid to Soulbeast. They are both Master Traits so it wouldn't cause any confusion there. I'm sure Arenanet would have to rename the traits at that point but this would make Soulbeast a viable DPS, which is what old Ranger players have been crying out to have for quite some time now. Then it would intrinsically make Druid tankier but take away that over powered Bunker resetting. This would seriously lower the floor of Druid skill capping but only lower the ceiling by a little bit. Druid would have to bail 1v2s a lot sooner than normal but they would still be perfectly capable of 1v1ing on nodes without needing to leave. All the while, Soulbeast then gets to DPS without being a sitting duck to anything that can teleport on top of it.

Another thing I was thinking about very strong skills like Signet of Stone: maybe rather than nerfing these just give them drawbacks. For example, if Signet of Stone also gave the player a -50% walk/run speed while using it for those 6s, the player would need to be selective for when to use this skill, otherwise they'll just get ganked immediately when it ends and die anyway. The more I think about it, if more things like this Signet of Stone drawback were implemented, it would VERY MUCH so help the problem we have in GW2 with skill spamming. Right now everything that can be used is always a boon and only a boon to be used. There is no drawback or reason to not button mash spam skills as often as possible, in most cases. However, if there were drawbacks on more powerful skills, players would need to seriously consider when it was a good idea to use those powerful skills or if it was going to screw over their play in the end. Guild Wars 1 had a lot of skills like this and that is what made GW1 builds so much more technical to run.

But see again, I wouldn't suggest anything like this in an OP post because these are wildly large and risky changes for the balance team to even begin to consider and usually they result in a waste of time to even bring up ^^

The idea of drawbacks...i like this, the game used to be like this, remenber old Frenzy from Warrior? Used to be like 100%( or 50%) action speed, but you would take 50% more damage(dont think endure pain was thing back in the day)...Ranger quicknees skill used to work likes too, guess you didnt get healing effects while using it, Thief if i am not mistaken lost all endurance or something...lol Signet of Stone is probably one of the most powercreeped skill on the game, it used to affect only your pet. If Ranger wished to survive they used to have pick sword/dagger and used the evade frames that these weapons gave, now is all about facetanking with Signet of Stone(double if you have traited lol) and just destroy everything on you path with greatsword lol such a skillfull gameplay.( I know that all professions got powercreeped to the extreme, but this is Ranger/Druid thread)

If you get hit once by a Scourge or Mirage, you'll have pretty much every condition on you. Druidic Clarity literally saves you from being 1 shot by condi.

Have you actually tried to remain in CA while taking focus fire from a Scourge/Mirage? You'll die if you don't stealth immediatedly after cleansing. Cleansing 2 conditions periodically while remaining in CA = death.

For example:

1. You have 8 conditions on you
2. You pop CA
3. You now have 6 conditions on you
4. 1 second later you have 8 conditions on you again
5. 1 second later you have 6 conditions on you again
6. 1 second later you have 8 conditions on you again
7. Dead.

If you want to completely butcher Druidic Clarity and Druid's viability in any sort of meta whatsoever, make Druidic Clarity a cleanse over time.

Also, if you honestly think that the current Druid meta is to pop Signet of Stone and facetank

any

class while "destroying them" with gs, you actually have no concept of PvP. Btw, no one traits double SoS.

When did i say that Druid meta on sPvP is to "pop Signet of Stone and facetank

any

class while "destroying them" with gs"

! > now is all about facetanking with Signet of Stone(double if you have traited lol) and just destroy everything on you path with greatsword lol such a skillfull gameplay

@Felipe.1807 said:...your example of using SoS against Scourge/Mirage(assume you talking about Condi ones) dosent even make sense lol, SoS is only immunity to power damage, its obvious that with you try to meele down a Scourge he will destroy you and SoS wont do anything against it...your argument about Druid needing full condi cleanse fails to convince me, simple cause the same can be said about every single porfession on this game... if I get condi bursted by Mirage/Scourge with Guardian and Contemplation of Purity is on cooldown, i am dead...even if is not on cd, if I fail to dodge the second condi burst i will be condi overloaded and die, the only diference is that I dont have Stealth, superspeed and some decent mobility to remove me from combat.

You are literally arguing against yourself here. That is exactly my point... You're advocating for removing our Burst Condi Cleanse and replacing it with Cleanse Over Time. If Contemplation of Purity were to cleanse 2 conditions periodically, rather than cleansing all conditions instantly, it would be significantly worse and wouldn't be worth taking in the current meta.

To me, you guys got so used to have this broken CA, that you cant even picture yourself playing without it, simple cause is so strong that taking any other trait choice is basically handicapping yourself hardcore.

Yes. I would say that us Druids have gotten so used to OUR F*CKING class mechanic that it's hard to imagine ourselves playing without it. Anything else you want to say Captain Obvious? Are you Firebrands used to your tomes? Is it hard for you to picture yourself playing without them?

"lol Signet of Stone is probably one of the most powercreeped skill on the game, it used to affect only your pet. If Ranger wished to survive they used to have pick sword/dagger and used the evade frames that these weapons gave, now is all about facetanking with Signet of Stone(double if you have traited lol) and just destroy everything on you path with greatsword lol such a skillfull gameplay."

Where did I mention sPvP, Druid, Meta build or anything of the kind in this sentence?

Also, I never said anything about making traited CA be a cleanse over time, that was Travor suggestion, i said that in some cenarious having a 2 condi cleanse per second during 6 secs could be considered a buff.

My target is not Celestial Avatar itself, but this poorly though traits that Anet made...from my roaming experince(aint gonna talk about sPvP cause i dont play it since the last season) Druids dont even bother with the skills of CA, they just use it to get a free stunbreak, full condi cleanse, Aoe Stealth and superspeed every 15 secs...you should be encouraged to use Celestial Avatar skills, shouldnt be so easy to build Astral Force.

After the nerfs i am actually trying to get used to play without the tomes lol F3 is basically used just counter projectile builds, F2 only when i can get behind some cover or something, since even with high Healing power and some toughness is not like you can outheal the damage that most power builds do these days, F1 is still nice, some good AoE damage and some range and also some form of CC and works decent with power builds too...but more and more I am going back to Core guard when playing anything that is not support.( this is all my WvW perpective)

[Arcaedus.7290]

Well thought out suggestions, I approve fully.

Another thing that a friend of mine suggested as far as a nerf would be for DC to burst-cleanse only 4-5 condis rather than all. This would mean that in 1v1, you're likely to cleanse the most pressing condis (since most condi builds don't carry around more than 3 cover condis at once) but a coordinated team spike + condi bomb would deal heavy damage to you (would need to pair DC with some other cleanse).

I like your suggestion for DC but that could be seen as a huge buff vs. certain builds that are great at reapplying conditions.