Dagger Problem

[pah.4931]

@"ZDragon.3046" said:Honestly the auto attack is not that bad yes its not axe damage but axe has tons of modifiers on it that make it that good. Dagger has gotten no modifiers and the ones it does have are situation and clunky.Best thing they could do isAdd a vampiric leech hit to the 2nd and last hit of the auto chain.Actually rework the whole leaching system for necros specifically no more of this damage vs healing power nonsense. Give us a true leech based on a % of damage done.For each pulse of damage leech a % of that damage back as hp. (remove the if bleeding effect)Dagger 3 lower the cooldown make the cast time slightly shorter (Remove the self bleed)

Agreed with AA. I would make it steal a decent amount of life on each hit (it doesn't need a damage buff if this was the case) and it should be noticeable... and scary for the opponent. Almost all the "vampiric" qualities of Necro are laughable.

We ARE getting a slightly lower CD on #3 in PvP and WvW (according to the "proposed split changes") but I would LOVE if it was an instant teleport plus slightly delayed immob... if it were like the Guardians teleports, where it doesn't activate if you don't have a target I think it would definitely NOT be OP. Give a little mobility to a class that has NONE. Something like "Bleed yourself and teleport to your target then immobilize them." (cast time is AFTER the teleport... not sure if there are abilities like this but HECK why not lol... it'd be like a combo-wombo teleport where you technically start casting then teleport during animation, just wrapped into one skill)...

Then I'd be happy.

If they made #2 unblockable (it's damage is low compared to something like larcenous strike which is unblockable AND steals boons AND is spammable) that would be icing on the cake.

Dagger is pretty fun to use. And it isn't absolutely trash. It has just fallen behind the Power Creep.

[ZDragon.3046]

@"pah.4931" said:We ARE getting a slightly lower CD on #3 in PvP and WvW (according to the "proposed split changes") but I would LOVE if it was an instant teleport plus slightly delayed immob... if it were like the Guardians teleports, where it doesn't activate if you don't have a target I think it would definitely NOT be OP. Give a little mobility to a class that has NONE. Something like "Bleed yourself and teleport to your target then immobilize them." (cast time is AFTER the teleport... not sure if there are abilities like this but HECK why not lol... it'd be like a combo-wombo teleport where you technically start casting then teleport during animation, just wrapped into one skill)...

Then I'd be happy.

If they made #2 unblockable (it's damage is low compared to something like larcenous strike which is unblockable AND steals boons AND is spammable) that would be icing on the cake.

Dagger is pretty fun to use. And it isn't absolutely trash. It has just fallen behind the Power Creep.

I dont think it would be fair to make it unblockable. If it stole boons that would be nice too but i dont see that being a thing either. Honest i would just settle for having it heal a % of damage done cause it can do some pretty healthy damage on the right build. But for as slow as it is the heal is very bleh. I feel like if its self sustain potential was better it wouldnt need all the extra damage because it would be a true utility weapon with decent damage sustain when used correctly.

The dagger 2 is never going to do the damage that Axe 2 dues but axe 2 scales well based on other modifies ad vuln as its main damage boost axe 2 damage without any vuln stacks is pretty subpar too. :>

Dagger 3 is just a mix of i really dont know i dont see them adding much to it im not even sure they need too. just remove the bleed shorter cast time shorter cd and its golden.

[Khailyn.6248]

I would be more fine with mainhand dagger if we got even 1 stack of bleeding at the end of the auto attack chain so we wouldnt feel as pigeonholed into using the immobilize to get the bleeding stack prior to the life siphon. Make the weapon a little more flexible.

[Obtena.7952]

@Anchoku.8142 said:A few minutes ago I was struck by the similarities between MH+OH dagger to staff.

• Power AA
• Little heal and damage on short CD
• Condition transfer
• Damaging condi
• Control condi

Maybe the daggers were meant to be utility weapons and I have been misinterpreting its use.

Dagger is one of our run-fast options, when traited, but staff has both range and more targeted AoE. Perhaps, daggers are supposed to be used as utility weapons versus purely power or condi dps tools.

I'm pretty sure you see what I have seen ... their is definitely a reason that Anet buffs Axe DPS every balance patch and not Dagger DPS ... and it's not because they intend for Dagger to be a DPS weapon.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Going straight to OP post, bypassing walls of text after.

Dagger is a great weapon, taking top spot in necro arsenal along with axe. Both have very clear identity, purpose and skills that synergize with eachother for their role.Considering sick amount of life force and life steal (espcially with healing power) that the dagger can pull off, it's raw damage is also a very good deal.Even condi scourge can benefit from it, due to the life force generation aspect.

Self bleeding can be a problem, but this necro we're talking about - we're the last profession that can't handle condies on self. And it is a very important step in the right direction, even if bit clumsy one. The direction of making power necro also reap some benefits from condi manipulation plays.

Offhand dagger however...oh boy. That thing needs a total rework. A trait (weakening shroud) beats it's #5 by leaps and bounds. While nr 4 is slow as molasses on a skill that should be reactive (bouncing blind). But becuase it has condi transfer attached to it, it's slow and so the blind just acts as an odd addition, becuase certainly not as a reactive counter to incoming blow.

[Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046]

The things that mostly keep me from taking main hand dagger is the short range of the channelling and the lack of life force gain from it.It needs to be on level with axe regarding life force gains. (Life fore gain above a certain % HP threshold, or when 100% HP life steal turns into Life force)This would go with offhand CC and condition transfers on weapons.

Because I believe a melee build for necromancer should not use / or be so dependent on staff for it's life force management.

[Obtena.7952]

^^ Is that a serious comment? Dagger has amazing LF regain. In no way is necromancer dependent on staff for that. It's actually the only reason to use a Dagger IMO.

[Nimon.7840]

@Obtena.7952 said:^^ Is that a serious comment? Dagger has amazing LF regain. In no way is necromancer dependent on staff for that. It's actually the only reason to use a Dagger IMO.

You notice, that you wont be hitting anyone in pvp modes with mainhand dagger auto, because every fcking class will either:-have more mobility so you cant hit them-do so much more dmg in closeup fights and still have much more tankyness.

[Obtena.7952]

You will notice that the poster was complaining about the lack of LF regen, not that dagger doesn't hit people in PVP. Those are different things. You could jack up LF regen all you wanted on dagger .. still wouldn't fix the fact that dagger doesn't hit people in PVP. Beside, how obtuse is it to complain that dagger doesn't hit people in PVP ... and think that's a dagger problem in the first place? OFC it doesn't hit people, it's a melee weapon. That's a NECRO problem; a lack of skills that prevents you from getting to your target and keeping them there. the irony is that dagger actually provides you with one solution to part of that problem on #3 ...

Let's try to be sensible here; you aren't going to make any compelling argument that dagger needs to be fixed because of fundamental deficiencies with the necro profession. Even if Anet completely reworked dagger into a reason weapon that addressed those, it wouldn't be enough because a bandwidth of 3 skills on a weapon is just too small to fix necro problems. The whole idea that could happen is ridiculous. The dagger itself is not the problem. Some tweaking of number and a revisit to #3 ... that's about all it needs. Anything else you have complained about in this thread is a NECRO problem, not a dagger one.

[Fipmip.7219]

I'd like to revive this thread (searching for d/d builds on google). what exactly are the devs going for with dagger? it seems to me like their best use is to brawl, applying weakness and stealing health and lf. Should we lean into that then and try to maximize carapace, toughness, protection and healing power? still a necro noob at this stage so would appreciate any insight.

[Flumek.9043]

@"Fipmip.7219" said:I'd like to revive this thread (searching for d/d builds on google). what exactly are the devs going for with dagger? it seems to me like their best use is to brawl, applying weakness and stealing health and lf. Should we lean into that then and try to maximize carapace, toughness, protection and healing power? still a necro noob at this stage so would appreciate any insight.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABgid3lVw4YWMP2JW0SurdA-z5gXKNGCRWAZmA9GBaMA

dagger atm is a duelist choice. The only benefit is a miniheal on 2, if you can manage condies and corrupts with shroud. Its still very random, sometimes you land the immob and instawin, sometimes you dont get interupted and sustain for long, and sometimes you get blinded or CCed and just instadie.

While necro is THE sustain sponge calss, it kinda doesnt need defensive stats.Most of survival comes from avoiding with ports, facetanking with lots of lifeforce and condi cleanse.So having +200 toughness for 10% less damage is worthless overall and not worth spending traits on DeathMagic.For healing, we simply dont have it. Siphons dont scale enough so dont use healing power (only scourge barrier is worth healing power).

You basically just play hybrid variants of condi core necro (carrion staff)

[XECOR.2814]

@Fipmip.7219 said:I'd like to revive this thread (searching for d/d builds on google). what exactly are the devs going for with dagger? it seems to me like their best use is to brawl, applying weakness and stealing health and lf. Should we lean into that then and try to maximize carapace, toughness, protection and healing power? still a necro noob at this stage so would appreciate any insight.

Sorry man just let this thread die. It was a shi* show. Also, don't run d/d the skills dont go well together.

[Obtena.7952]

Everything said in this thread still holds true today ... you can't solve class problems by changing a weapon.

[Teratus.2859]

I've been vocal in Daggers defence but It does have issues.For one thing it's useless in PvP the main issues there being too obvious tells and low damage.Landing the 3 immob is difficult against anyone with experience in PvP and even then it can be cleansed and removed easily which makes everything besides the auto useless.. and even the low damage on the auto makes that useless too.

The long tell on dagger 3 needs cutting down and making less obvious it also needs to become unblockable in PvP modes.As for Dagger 2, maybe grant a short 1 second quickness or just reduce the casting time to make it hit quicker.That will have pros and cons since doing so would make it more rewarding when you land it but also make it much easier to dodge the entire channel in a single dodge.

The Dagger trait Quickening Thirst is in it's current state more or less useless.Locking the skill cooldown benefits to above 75% Hp completely ruined the usefulness of this trait.This restriction needs to be removed, all Dagger skills should have their CD benefits constantly with this trait equipped.The movement speed benefits locked above 75% hp is fine, that can stay as it is as it doesn't need to be a replacement for Signet of the Locust.

As far as PvE goes, Dagger is a lot better as a sustain weapon than most give it credit for.Dagger 2 is a very potent heal that can in one use match or even outheal your dedicated healing skills, and it has significantly shorter cooldown as well meaning you can use it 2-3 times in the time it takes for a dedicated heal to come off CD, combined with the self bleeding buff and other sources of life steal gained from the Blood magic line and Minions etc it easily makes Dagger 2 one of the strongest self healing skills in the game.I've seen my health recover by over 7k when using this skill combined exclusively with personal life steal sources (no 3rd party healing sources), that's nothing to scoff at for a non dedicated heal and no healing power investment, specially with a pitiful 10 second base cooldown.

Dagger 2 really doesn't need anything in PvE but I wouldn't oppose it getting that short quickness buff to heal faster.

Dagger 3 in PvE, There's nothing to do with this one.. the problem isn't the skill it's just how defiance bars work.The skill works fine on general trash mobs but boss creatures negate the immob.. so really the only reason to use this skill is for the self bleed so you can buff your incoming healing on Dagger 2.

The Daggers auto chain is the main thing that needs improving in PvE and honestly the only thing I would do to improve this is give it a 3 target cleave.Against 3 targets providing you hit them all with the full chain, that would give you an easy 24% life force gain which is more than enough.Increasing it's damage would make it conflict too much with Greatsword as a DPS weapon so that's a big no, Greatsword is your main physical DPS weapon and it needs to stay that way.

Dagger as someone so aptly put it in another thread is best defined as a "Resource Gathering" weapon and I 100% agree with that assessment.Dagger should be the go to support weapon for gaining quick Health and Life Force.. swap in and swap out as quickly as possible and gain as much health and lifesteal as you can while you're waiting for weapon swap to CD.Giving it a 3 target cleave would help it in that regard due to it's fast attack speed which greatly benefits both life force gain and life steal.It'll also spare you going Reaper and give you a reason not to waste it while the Dagger kit is active so you can better use it with Greatsword to boost your DPS.

[XECOR.2814]

@Obtena.7952 said:Everything said in this thread still holds true today ... you can't solve class problems by changing a weapon.

What do you think a class is? Its the trait lines+weapon skills+utility+class mechanics. You are implying that the weapon skills are disjointed from the class identity from your statement which is utterly false. You can solve class problems with weapon skills infact it is the best way to fix them. Now if you want to fix them or not is a different debate but saying that its not possible is so wrong on so many levels.

[Obtena.7952]

@XECOR.2814 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everything said in this thread still holds true today ... you can't solve class problems by changing a weapon.

You are implying that the weapon skills are disjointed from the class identity from your statement which is utterly false.

No, I'm not implying that ... that's more like a misinterpretation or something on your part. This dagger issue is well covered, even in the last thread we had about it a week ago that you actually participated in ... you just choose to ignore it because it's not the solution you want for dagger. If you want to fix dagger, it needs a completely new concept, not a change to a number or skill here and there. The fact that life drain/steal isn't a useful strategy for Necro in this game isn't fixed by changing dagger, unless of course you absolutely break it.

[Fipmip.7219]

I personally think that the realm of ideas is quite generous when it comes to whether or not its possible to balance them. For instance, does being able to inflict a 15k hit in one shot on a ranged class belong in guildwars? Well as it turns out, with enough readability, resource investment and vulnerability from the shooter, yeah it's kinda not that bad.It's for this reason that I think that whatever the intention (or concept) for daggers is, as long as it doesnt occupy the exact same spot as some other weapon (emphasis on exact, meaning a similar goal via a different path is still on the table), it can be brought in line and made viable to the point of being a popular and balanced choice.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Fipmip.7219" said:It's for this reason that I think that whatever the intention (or concept) for daggers is, as long as it doesnt occupy the exact same spot as some other weapon (emphasis on exact, meaning a similar goal via a different path is still on the table), it can be brought in line and made viable to the point of being a popular and balanced choice.

Did you have anything specific in mind on how to change dagger to do this or are you just throwing a vote into the "Yes, we can fix it with it's current concept" lot?

[Teratus.2859]

@Obtena.7952 said:The fact that life drain/steal isn't a useful strategy for Necro in this game isn't fixed by changing dagger, unless of course you absolutely break it.

Have to disagree there.It's only not useful if you're going pure DPS builds and that's by design since you need to have that kind of trade off to avoid OP builds.

Tankier builds on the other hand even power focused tanks get massive use from life steal, I know this because i've played one for over 6 years and I still love playing it.Specially for soloing stuff.

They can be borderline unkillable in a great deal of the games PvE content and if Anet buffed lifesteal even more to make it more viable on DPS builds then those kinds of tanky setups would become more or less invincible.. hell if they did that then we could probably trade off a good chunk of that tankyness for huge gains in damage and still be borderline unkillable in most PvE content.. it would just be way too much though.

Anet has to account for all kinds of builds etc when it balances stuff, not just the meta DPS stuff.Lifesteal doesn't work well for them but for other builds it works extremely well.

[Obtena.7952]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The fact that life drain/steal isn't a useful strategy for Necro in this game isn't fixed by changing dagger, unless of course you absolutely break it.

Have to disagree there.It's only not useful if you're going pure DPS builds and that's by design since you need to have that kind of trade off to avoid OP builds.

Not being a pure DPS build doesn't make dagger lifesteal a useful strategy for Necro. I can tell you why ... because the main mechanic for avoiding damage is movement ... and by definition, Dagger #2 can't be used while moving. Since you have to choose one or the other ... and Dagger #2 isn't enough by itself to keep you in the fight ... you are going to choose moving/dodging as they are more effective. Is there even a necro tank build that only uses lifesteal as it's strategy for sustain? I don't believe that's true. But there ARE solo tank builds that don't use dagger or even lifesteal.

Tankier builds on the other hand even power focused tanks get massive use from life steal, I know this because i've played one for over 6 years and I still love playing it.Specially for soloing stuff.I'm going to challenge that ... what tankier build are you specifically talking about? Yes, I'm aware there are necro builds that tank really well, but they don't use dagger and if they did, they would be diminished because they still need mobility to be successful .. something you can't do with dagger #2.

The bottomline is that dagger #2 is the weakest way to obtain sustain for necro builds. I would even say that in many cases, it diminishes the sustain of builds since you can't face tank without minions and barriers are much more effective and easily accessed ... in these cases, you don't need the lifesteal anyways.

[Teratus.2859]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The fact that life drain/steal isn't a useful strategy for Necro in this game isn't fixed by changing dagger, unless of course you absolutely break it.

Have to disagree there.It's only not useful if you're going pure DPS builds and that's by design since you need to have that kind of trade off to avoid OP builds.

Not being a pure DPS build doesn't make dagger lifesteal a useful strategy for Necro. I can tell you why ... because the main mechanic for avoiding damage is movement ... and by definition, Dagger #2 can't be used while moving. Since you have to choose one or the other ... and Dagger #2 isn't enough by itself to keep you in the fight ... you are going to choose moving/dodging. Is there even a necro tank build that only uses lifesteal as it's strategy for sustain? I don't believe that's true. But there ARE solo tank builds that don't use dagger or even lifesteal.

What do you mean?You can use Dagger 2 while moving, you've always been able to move when using it.Dodging is always a mechanic included into every build and playstyle.. I don't really know where the idea comes from that tank builds don't dodge, we dodge all the time for exactly that reason.. avoiding damage, this is especially true when it comes to avoiding CC.Other mechanics like sustain, lifesteal, aegis and blocks are there to work with dodge not replace it.

Pretty much no single form of survival is going to be enough alone, that includes dedicated healing skills and dodging.The point is making them work together to increase your overall survival so no Dagger 2 alone isn't going to be enough to keep you in a fight with something powerful, and neither would just your heal skill either or just dodging, they all work together to keep you alive.As a heal skill Dagger 2 is very strong, healing almost as much as most of the Necro's dedicated heals which can be buffed with self bleeding and other lifesteal sources from traits.The biggest benefit is the cooldown, it only takes 10 seconds for Dagger 2 to come off CD while it can take up to 25-30+ seconds for your heals to cooldown allowing you to get 2-3 uses out of it in that time depending on quickness for the cast animation which means the overall healing you get with Dagger 2 is much higher than your dedicated heals.I've personally seen my Necro heal by upwards of 7k+ in a single use of the skill, with other sources of lifesteal in play too but the point is if Dagger 2 can help me bring in 7K health every 10 seconds then no dedicated heal is going to match that on a 25-30 second CD.

As for the last part do you mean builds that rely exclusively on lifesteal.. like facetanking everything, never moving or dodging etc?If so yeah they probably do exist but they would be terrible low damage and have bad players since they'd never learn how to dodge playing like that.

If you mean are there Necro builds that can survive on lifesteal sources and almost never need to use their dedicated heal skill then absolutely yes to that answer.That's exactly what i've been playing for the past 6 years.My lifesteal sources come from Dagger 2 and Warhorn 5.They also come from the Blood Magic traits Vampuric and Vampuric Presence.They also come from the Blood Fiend Minion and thanks to Vampuric, every single other minion I have actively attacking as well which is usually around 10-11 thanks to Rise!.Food items can also provide more health sustain if I need it but honestly I never do.

All of it combined provides a huge amount of lifesteal, i've never clocked exactly how much but it's enough to sustain me most of the time without needing to swap into Dagger 2 and heal.. throw the dodges in there too as well as other benefits in the build such as the Rise! protection buff and all the CC's etc and you have something that is very good at staying alive.

There are other builds out there that don't use Dagger or lifesteal that is true though I don't know where their limits would be and I doubt many have tested them against high sustain builds.If halloween was still going we could have done a 1v1 challenge on the Lab Horror to test that out for fun lol

Tankier builds on the other hand even power focused tanks get massive use from life steal, I know this because i've played one for over 6 years and I still love playing it.Specially for soloing stuff.I'm going to challenge that ... what tankier build are you specifically talking about? Yes, I'm aware there are necro builds that tank really well, but they don't use dagger and if they did, they would be diminished because they still need mobility to be successful .. something you can't do with dagger #2.

The bottomline is that dagger #2 is the weakest element of tanky necro builds. I would even say that in many cases, it diminishes the sustain of these tanky builds since you can't face tank without minions and in that case, you don't need the lifesteal anyways.

A lot of Necro's lifesteal comes from minions, it's basically part of the package deal if you want high sustain from lifesteal.No one source of lifesteal alone will be enough, you pretty much even said that yourself.It's the combination of sources that make it so potent.. very much like how Warrior might healing works.You have to get as much might as you possible can through as many sources as you can to get the most sustain healing.. Lifesteal works exactly the same way, you have to build for as much of it as you can.That means Minions, Dagger, Blood Magic all play a part since they are the best combination of lifesteal sources.There is some merit as well to combining Signet of Vampurism with lifesteal traits and wells for a quick burst of incoming health thanks to quick multi hit lifesteals but this doesn't have the same constant sustain that minions provide.. it's more of a huge burst of healing but then you're stuck waiting on cooldowns, useful in a pinch though.

[Obtena.7952]

What I mean is you aren't doing better with Dagger 2 than you are with simply moving/dodging to avoid damage ... that's NOT true of barriers/minions. I mean, you can disagree ... but we all know the best sustain builds you are going to use on necro aren't using Dagger 2 otherwise we wouldn't be talking here. The fact that no one source of lifesteal is enough is just one of many factors that demonstrates dagger 2 is the worst sustain technique. We already know minions and barriers are going to be WAY better than what lifesteal gives you ... In fact, I can literally use either one by itself to tank ... Lifesteal still needs another tactic to be successful. Even blinds are better than dagger 2 in a sustain build.

Let's take a step back though ... the complain is that dagger 2 isn't good because it can be evaded or blocked and my point is that dagger can't be made 'good' because of it's concept in the first place ... If you think dagger is 'great' for a specific aspect of the game not related to the complaint, then that's a moot point anyways.

Basically, we are arguing a point that isn't really relevant to the thread and I'm a responsible for that as you. If we want to be on topic, then I would say there isn't a fix for dagger for the complaint made based on simply adding something or tweaking a number.

I'm just going to quote something really relevant I said earlier in this thread almost 2 years ago that is still as relevant now as it was then:

This is really simple; dagger is a sustain weapon; it has the most LF regen, a direct life siphon and some kind of weird corrupting immobilize ... you tell me where that could POSSIBLY fit in the meta where competitive PVE is about long-term damage output and team sharing, where PVP/WVW is about burst damage, team sharing and CC. It doesn't, and nothing you could do with that weapon would ever make it fit 'good' in those game modes without reworking it completely right from the concept.

[Fipmip.7219]

are you saying theres no place for sustaining and facetanking in gw2? It's not entirely transparent what the intention of dagger is, although you can get a pretty good idea from looking at it that its probably meant for outlasting your opponent in 1v1, a scenario that occurs fairly often in PvP gamemodes. Is your point that this concept has no place in gw2? In my experience, taking damage is going to happen and at some point a heal is going to be needed. So why then is a heal (and damage) skill such an incompatible prospect? It seems to me that there is nothing wrong with the idea itself, it simply being the implementation that is cumbersome.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Fipmip.7219" said:are you saying theres no place for sustaining and facetanking in gw2? It's not entirely transparent what the intention of dagger is, although you can get a pretty good idea from looking at it that its probably meant for outlasting your opponent in 1v1, a scenario that occurs fairly often in PvP gamemodes. Is your point that this concept has no place in gw2? In my experience, taking damage is going to happen and at some point a heal is going to be needed. So why then is a heal (and damage) skill such an incompatible prospect? It seems to me that there is nothing wrong with the idea itself, it simply being the implementation that is cumbersome.

No he/she is saying that sustaining and facetanking need the help of other tools to be viable. Thus the issue is not dagger design or the sustain/facetanking model but the fact that the necromancer, by design, lack the complementary tools necessary to make this gameplay "viable". This lead players to seek one of the 2 following solutions based on personal preference:

• Totally rework the dagger main hand so that it fit the widely favored "dps" niche.
• Give the necromancer the tools necessary to make the sustain/facetanking gameplay viable.

For one reason or another, none of those answers are truly "proper". One would strip the identity of the dagger while the other would simply go against the profession's core design tenets. As it is, if the necromancer want to make use of the dagger as a sustain/facetanking tools, he need someone behind him to provide him with the tools that he lack in order to make the gameplay viable. However, if someone can provide him these tools, this player can as well just sustain/facetank by himself without bothering with the necromancer.

The core tenets of the necromancer are what make the necromancer's dagger design both proper thematically and "lacking" in term of viability. It's not that the design of the dagger is bad it's just that there is no way to finalize it's purpose properly. Put the necromancer's dagger in the hand of a guardian, a warrior with a shield or a mace off hand, even an elementalist and the skills are bound to work wonder, however, in the necromancer's hands it's just lacking the subtle amount of gap management/dodge/block/stability necessary to really make it "viable".

[XECOR.2814]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Fipmip.7219" said:are you saying theres no place for sustaining and facetanking in gw2? It's not entirely transparent what the intention of dagger is, although you can get a pretty good idea from looking at it that its probably meant for outlasting your opponent in 1v1, a scenario that occurs fairly often in PvP gamemodes. Is your point that this concept has no place in gw2? In my experience, taking damage is going to happen and at some point a heal is going to be needed. So why then is a heal (and damage) skill such an incompatible prospect? It seems to me that there is nothing wrong with the idea itself, it simply being the implementation that is cumbersome.

No he/she is saying that sustaining and facetanking need the help of other tools to be viable. Thus the issue is not dagger design or the sustain/facetanking model but the fact that the necromancer, by design, lack the complementary tools necessary to make this gameplay "viable". This lead players to seek one of the 2 following solutions based on personal preference:

• Totally rework the dagger main hand so that it fit the widely favored "dps" niche.
• Give the necromancer the tools necessary to make the sustain/facetanking gameplay viable.

For one reason or another, none of those answers are truly "proper". One would strip the identity of the dagger while the other would simply go against the profession's core design tenets. As it is, if the necromancer want to make use of the dagger as a sustain/facetanking tools, he need someone behind him to provide him with the tools that he lack in order to make the gameplay viable. However, if someone can provide him these tools, this player can as well just sustain/facetank by himself without bothering with the necromancer.

The core tenets of the necromancer are what make the necromancer's dagger design both proper thematically and "lacking" in term of viability. It's not that the design of the dagger is bad it's just that there is no way to finalize it's purpose properly. Put the necromancer's dagger in the hand of a guardian, a warrior with a shield or a mace off hand, even an elementalist and the skills are bound to work wonder, however, in the necromancer's hands it's just lacking the subtle amount of gap management/dodge/block/stability necessary to really make it "viable".

All of this is true but one thing and that is the fact that people dont realize that the weapon or class problems that you say are easily fixed by changes on weapon skills. We have seen this time and time again when players cry and moan for complete overhaul because something is bad but devs make small changes or add certain effects to skills and suddenly it becomes the best pick. The whole theme of a weapon does not need to change. And its a f'in game you can literally make any theme work just by adding something new that fixes the problem and then balancing the numbers. Its just a matter of realizing if you aren't doing it too much but imo dagger needs somethings added to it. It is very outdated.

For example the current problem with dagger is not being able to land damage as enemy are always out of range which also results into not being able to use its lf regen effects most of the times. Devs knew abt this since the beginning so they gave a decent immob duration to us which helped keeping up with the enemy. But now the game is much faster and cleanse and mobility skills are basically spammed so something is needed to keep it at the same level as before so it can at least function the way it was supposed to. Imo if they just add the teleport behind the target on #3 so we can stick to target more all the problems will be solved, you will land your #3 from range which will port you in melee range and immob enemy and you would be able to land autos. It wont be too op because it is small range, targeted ability and just by the fact that it ports you to enemy which can be devastating for a necro if they are multiple enemies and not to mention it has long cast time. The new added effect will also act as a good reason to take dagger trait in blood magic.