Is scourge going to take even more nerfs?

[Axl.8924]

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I'm sorry to say it Mini Crinny but no profession really have a more skillfull gameplay than the necromancer.

Excuse me but...

LOL? Scourge was and still is one of the most braindead classes along with Pre-Patch Condi Mirage and Pre-Patch Firebrand.

I mean I could understand you if you said Revenant but otherwise, just lol.

Try reading what I wrote after. You are also bias in the way you perceive things. Scourge only have one thing for him and it's to cover area with it's poison. Doing it smartly and timing it's skills is as hard as what other professions have to do (Which mean it's not hard, indeed).

Are you of those that think that elementalist have a harder time because they have "more" skills? Nope, scourge have almost as may skills to use as an elementalist.Do you perhaps think that thiefs needs 200 IQ to do their job? Nope.Do you think an engineer is skilled because he got to remember it's kits skills? Nope, 99% of the engineers just spam their kits skills whenever they can.Do you think their is a need to go to an reknown highschool to play mesmer perhaps? Nope, just summon your clones and blow them.Do you think warrior or guardian are hard to play? Sorry but no. They've got pretty basic gameplay.Or maybe you think ranger are an example of skillfull gameplay? It's not, nope.You think poorly of the revenant? Well, it's actually as difficult with it than with the other professions.

You think that the scourge is harder to play because you think that it's granted that he got all the thng that other professions have. He doesn't. It's mobility is poor, it's defense is brittle, it's resilience to CC is pathetic. It's only job is area denying. If you think that him being good at doing it's job mean that it doesn't need as much skills as other professions, you're wrong.

There is plenty of flaw in the design of the scourge and I'd love to see it totally reworked, but saying that it's a profession that is easier than the other is purely wrong.

I mean of course I am biased, because I think Revenant is hard and underpowered, but you aren’t biased because you think Scourge has a high skill ceiling? Pfft.

For the other professions;

Elementalists : Yes, they are hard because you need to time your evades and Twist of Fate if you are a Weaver. Elementalists are almost non-existant in PvP, and people mostly play Scourge and Hammer Rev instead of DPS Ele in WvW.

SO DO NECROS!!! in fact:We lack tools to evade a lot of times, because we have so few mobility tools, and our defensives are being nerfed.Do you know how we escape? we use some ability for mobility or wurm and pray a thief or some other class with equal mobility cc doesn't catch us, or we are dead.

Thief : Some of their builds require some IQ like P/D or Rifle, but I agree with you on that.

Engineer : Not much like as you said, because Engineers really need to do combos to do damage, aside from Holosmith. But Holosmith wasn’t the real issue even before the Feb 6 patch - Scourge, Mirage and Firebrand were.

Mesmer : I never liked Mirage’s brainless gameplay anyway. Mesmer is definitely over the top, at the moment.

Warrior, Guardian, Ranger : Those are just bruisers or supports so I’m not going to comment on those, but Firebrand and Spellbreaker were OP, Druid still is.

Changed it for you

Reaper is like a tank irl, hard hitting, but slow, and has few defensives for defending against stuff like invulns and such But Scourge was hard hitting, and fragile.

Arenanet went the wrong way with Necromancer when balancing in my opinion.They should’ve lowered it’s ability to make capture points deadzones. Lowering it’s damage isn’t needed as much as it’s control abilities. They should’ve kept it’s damage high, but remove braindead skills like Sand Savant.

Clearly it sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.We use aoes to take advantage of our enemies.ITs not braindead at all, because we need to apply the right things in order to help win a point, and if we fail, our whole team dies and if they die WE DIE!!! see? don't equate mobility and evades as only way.We use our aoes as defensives.

They wanted to balance the class around PvP/WvW, and made it useless in PvE, just like they did with Deadeye Rifle.

[Dadnir.5038]

Well, I'm not biased because I do not play scourge ;) but I play all professions available HoT e-spec included. The point is that it's wrong to say that one is harder to play than another and scourge do not escape from this statement. All professions have glaring weakness that are easy to exploit.

Ah and to be clear, I do not think scourge have a "high skill ceiling" but neither do I think that other professions do. It's just that, at one point when you've played enough of each and every professions, you more or less understand that none is "high ceiling", it's just whether or not you got the proper automatisms.

The reason why the elementalist is "almost non existant" is because each spec have it's own rythm and it's hard to switch. Tempest is what destroyed elementalists' players rythm. Had weaver been the first elementalist's e-spec released players would have adapted fairly easily to it because the rythm, despite being forced by the shared cool down of the attunment, is very similar to the old core elementalist rythm. It's not a matter of being skilled or not, it's just that the tempo is faster and when you've grown accustomed to a slower one it's painful to adapt.

[Avigrus.2871]

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

They should’ve lowered it’s ability to make capture points deadzones. Lowering it’s damage isn’t needed as much as it’s control abilities. They should’ve kept it’s damage high, but remove braindead skills like Sand Savant.

Shame A-net doesn't realise this, yet tons of players realise that this is a massive problem

[Imperadordf.2687]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I'm sorry to say it Mini Crinny but no profession really have a more skillfull gameplay than the necromancer.

Excuse me but...

LOL? Scourge was and still is one of the most braindead classes along with Pre-Patch Condi Mirage and Pre-Patch Firebrand.

I mean I could understand you if you said Revenant but otherwise, just lol.

Try reading what I wrote after. You are also bias in the way you perceive things. Scourge only have one thing for him and it's to cover area with it's poison. Doing it smartly and timing it's skills is as hard as what other professions have to do (Which mean it's not hard, indeed).

Are you of those that think that elementalist have a harder time because they have "more" skills? Nope, scourge have almost as may skills to use as an elementalist.Do you perhaps think that thiefs needs 200 IQ to do their job? Nope.Do you think an engineer is skilled because he got to remember it's kits skills? Nope, 99% of the engineers just spam their kits skills whenever they can.Do you think their is a need to go to an reknown highschool to play mesmer perhaps? Nope, just summon your clones and blow them.Do you think warrior or guardian are hard to play? Sorry but no. They've got pretty basic gameplay.Or maybe you think ranger are an example of skillfull gameplay? It's not, nope.You think poorly of the revenant? Well, it's actually as difficult with it than with the other professions.

You think that the scourge is harder to play because you think that it's granted that he got all the thng that other professions have. He doesn't. It's mobility is poor, it's defense is brittle, it's resilience to CC is pathetic. It's only job is area denying. If you think that him being good at doing it's job mean that it doesn't need as much skills as other professions, you're wrong.

There is plenty of flaw in the design of the scourge and I'd love to see it totally reworked, but saying that it's a profession that is easier than the other is purely wrong.

I mean of course I am biased, because I think Revenant is hard and underpowered, but you aren’t biased because you think Scourge has a high skill ceiling? Pfft.

For the other professions;

Elementalists : Yes, they are hard because you need to time your evades and Twist of Fate if you are a Weaver. Elementalists are almost non-existant in PvP, and people mostly play Scourge and Hammer Rev instead of DPS Ele in WvW.

SO DO NECROS!!! in fact:We lack tools to evade a lot of times, because we have so few mobility tools, and our defensives are being nerfed.Do you know how we escape? we use some ability for mobility or wurm and pray a thief or some other class with equal mobility cc doesn't catch us, or we are dead.

Thief : Some of their builds require some IQ like P/D or Rifle, but I agree with you on that.

Engineer : Not much like as you said, because Engineers really need to do combos to do damage, aside from Holosmith. But Holosmith wasn’t the real issue even before the Feb 6 patch - Scourge, Mirage and Firebrand were.

Mesmer : I never liked Mirage’s brainless gameplay anyway. Mesmer is definitely over the top, at the moment.

Warrior, Guardian, Ranger : Those are just bruisers or supports so I’m not going to comment on those, but Firebrand and Spellbreaker were OP, Druid still is.

Changed it for you

Reaper is like a tank irl, hard hitting, but slow, and has few defensives for defending against stuff like invulns and such But Scourge was hard hitting, and fragile.

Arenanet went the wrong way with Necromancer when balancing in my opinion.They should’ve lowered it’s ability to make capture points deadzones. Lowering it’s damage isn’t needed as much as it’s control abilities. They should’ve kept it’s damage high, but remove braindead skills like Sand Savant.

Clearly it sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.We use aoes to take advantage of our enemies.ITs not braindead at all, because we need to apply the right things in order to help win a point, and if we fail, our whole team dies and if they die WE DIE!!! see? don't equate mobility and evades as only way.We use our aoes as defensives.

They wanted to balance the class around PvP/WvW, and made it useless in PvE, just like they did with Deadeye Rifle.

Sorry, I’m on my phone so I can’t crop the post like i usually do to reply to certain things.

Firstly, Scourges didn’t need to escape at all. Their enemies were downed before they could even get below %50 health. Even if they did, they still got Desert Shroud which is an insane defensive skill. Necromancers can handle getting hit. Elementalists can’t. Necromancers have 19K health and highest armor rate for a Light Armor class.

Second, agree with you on Reaper, but Scourge wasn’t fragile at all. Look at Desert Shroud and Sand Flare. They are just too good. And they have 19K base HP, the meta Scourge build runs Deadshot Amulet which gives 1050 Toughness, or meta Scourge build in WvW runs Trailblazer/Dire which gives toughness aswell. So it has a lot of damage mitigation already.

Third, I know what I am talking about. I am talking about that braindead, unfun, boring and annoying trait. Yes, it’s Sand Savant. Pulsing AoE’s that convert boons and apply conditions in a 300 Radius area. 300 Radius... and they are spammable... 300 Radius is an entire capture point except in Legacy of the Foefire.

You don’t need to time them. You have 3 charges of Sand Shades. You can spam them and their cooldown isn’t that high.

You can’t fail or miss a Sand Shade. If you really fail to hit a Sand Shade the problem is you, not the class, sorry.

You don’t use AoEs as defense abilities. You use them to kill people, pressure people. Defending you is a Shade’s last purpose.

[Axl.8924]

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I'm sorry to say it Mini Crinny but no profession really have a more skillfull gameplay than the necromancer.

Excuse me but...

LOL? Scourge was and still is one of the most braindead classes along with Pre-Patch Condi Mirage and Pre-Patch Firebrand.

I mean I could understand you if you said Revenant but otherwise, just lol.

Try reading what I wrote after. You are also bias in the way you perceive things. Scourge only have one thing for him and it's to cover area with it's poison. Doing it smartly and timing it's skills is as hard as what other professions have to do (Which mean it's not hard, indeed).

Are you of those that think that elementalist have a harder time because they have "more" skills? Nope, scourge have almost as may skills to use as an elementalist.Do you perhaps think that thiefs needs 200 IQ to do their job? Nope.Do you think an engineer is skilled because he got to remember it's kits skills? Nope, 99% of the engineers just spam their kits skills whenever they can.Do you think their is a need to go to an reknown highschool to play mesmer perhaps? Nope, just summon your clones and blow them.Do you think warrior or guardian are hard to play? Sorry but no. They've got pretty basic gameplay.Or maybe you think ranger are an example of skillfull gameplay? It's not, nope.You think poorly of the revenant? Well, it's actually as difficult with it than with the other professions.

You think that the scourge is harder to play because you think that it's granted that he got all the thng that other professions have. He doesn't. It's mobility is poor, it's defense is brittle, it's resilience to CC is pathetic. It's only job is area denying. If you think that him being good at doing it's job mean that it doesn't need as much skills as other professions, you're wrong.

There is plenty of flaw in the design of the scourge and I'd love to see it totally reworked, but saying that it's a profession that is easier than the other is purely wrong.

I mean of course I am biased, because I think Revenant is hard and underpowered, but you aren’t biased because you think Scourge has a high skill ceiling? Pfft.

For the other professions;

Elementalists : Yes, they are hard because you need to time your evades and Twist of Fate if you are a Weaver. Elementalists are almost non-existant in PvP, and people mostly play Scourge and Hammer Rev instead of DPS Ele in WvW.

SO DO NECROS!!! in fact:We lack tools to evade a lot of times, because we have so few mobility tools, and our defensives are being nerfed.Do you know how we escape? we use some ability for mobility or wurm and pray a thief or some other class with equal mobility cc doesn't catch us, or we are dead.

Thief : Some of their builds require some IQ like P/D or Rifle, but I agree with you on that.

Engineer : Not much like as you said, because Engineers really need to do combos to do damage, aside from Holosmith. But Holosmith wasn’t the real issue even before the Feb 6 patch - Scourge, Mirage and Firebrand were.

Mesmer : I never liked Mirage’s brainless gameplay anyway. Mesmer is definitely over the top, at the moment.

Warrior, Guardian, Ranger : Those are just bruisers or supports so I’m not going to comment on those, but Firebrand and Spellbreaker were OP, Druid still is.

Changed it for you

Reaper is like a tank irl, hard hitting, but slow, and has few defensives for defending against stuff like invulns and such But Scourge was hard hitting, and fragile.

Arenanet went the wrong way with Necromancer when balancing in my opinion.They should’ve lowered it’s ability to make capture points deadzones. Lowering it’s damage isn’t needed as much as it’s control abilities. They should’ve kept it’s damage high, but remove braindead skills like Sand Savant.

Clearly it sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.We use aoes to take advantage of our enemies.ITs not braindead at all, because we need to apply the right things in order to help win a point, and if we fail, our whole team dies and if they die WE DIE!!! see? don't equate mobility and evades as only way.We use our aoes as defensives.

They wanted to balance the class around PvP/WvW, and made it useless in PvE, just like they did with Deadeye Rifle.

Sorry, I’m on my phone so I can’t crop the post like i usually do to reply to certain things.

Firstly, Scourges didn’t need to escape at all. Their enemies were downed before they could even get below %50 health. Even if they did, they still got Desert Shroud which is an insane defensive skill. Necromancers can handle getting hit. Elementalists can’t. Necromancers have 19K health and highest armor rate for a Light Armor class.

Second, agree with you on Reaper, but Scourge wasn’t fragile at all. Look at Desert Shroud and Sand Flare. They are just too good. And they have 19K base HP, the meta Scourge build runs Deadshot Amulet which gives 1050 Toughness, or meta Scourge build in WvW runs Trailblazer/Dire which gives toughness aswell. So it has a lot of damage mitigation already.

Third, I know what I am talking about. I am talking about that braindead, unfun, boring and annoying trait. Yes, it’s Sand Savant. Pulsing AoE’s that convert boons and apply conditions in a 300 Radius area. 300 Radius... and they are spammable... 300 Radius is an entire capture point except in Legacy of the Foefire.

You don’t need to time them. You have 3 charges of Sand Shades. You can spam them and their cooldown isn’t that high.

You can’t fail or miss a Sand Shade. If you really fail to hit a Sand Shade the problem is you, not the class, sorry.

You don’t use AoEs as defense abilities. You use them to kill people, pressure people. Defending you is a Shade’s last purpose.

Yes you can.There is a delay, and also:You don't have the second health bar.Also besides that:You still have to lay down the ability, and it can be interrupted by a stun, so stun cc the necro.

AlsoIts unfun and braindead to blow up a necro and win instantly without any repercussions or ability to fight back.Scourges have less health than reapers.I think on reaper i had over 20k health or close to 30k health+ having shroud means i can take more damage, but same thing applies to scourge as reaper:They are vulnerable to ccs and to ranged.Go far and shoot them down with double pistol thief or deadeye, or range them on your ranger, or even range them on your warrior.Don't be stupid and stand in their aoes and you will win.In other words:Learn to play.They have been nerfed many times and nerfed hard now.If you can't win, its on you.

[Imperadordf.2687]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, I'm not biased because I do not play scourge ;) but I play all professions available HoT e-spec included. The point is that it's wrong to say that one is harder to play than another and scourge do not escape from this statement. All professions have glaring weakness that are easy to exploit.

Ah and to be clear, I do not think scourge have a "high skill ceiling" but neither do I think that other professions do. It's just that, at one point when you've played enough of each and every professions, you more or less understand that none is "high ceiling", it's just whether or not you got the proper automatisms.

The reason why the elementalist is "almost non existant" is because each spec have it's own rythm and it's hard to switch. Tempest is what destroyed elementalists' players rythm. Had weaver been the first elementalist's e-spec released players would have adapted fairly easily to it because the rythm, despite being forced by the shared cool down of the attunment, is very similar to the old core elementalist rythm. It's not a matter of being skilled or not, it's just that the tempo is faster and when you've grown accustomed to a slower one it's painful to adapt.

Then let’s say Scourge has less weaknesses compared to others. And it needs to be brought in line.

I see many people adapting to Weaver to be fair. But it’s just not designed for PvP. Cellofrag for example. He plays Weaver so good and can beat most of the players we call good, but bring up another players with the same skill level as him, but as a thief. Or a warrior. Or a guardian. Elementalist will get destroyed. Same for Revenant. They are underpowered and require more skill to play.

This all leads to balance, though. If Weaver was as balanced as Scourge or Mirage, people will be crying out for nerfs to Weaver aswell.

[Axl.8924]

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, I'm not biased because I do not play scourge ;) but I play all professions available HoT e-spec included. The point is that it's wrong to say that one is harder to play than another and scourge do not escape from this statement. All professions have glaring weakness that are easy to exploit.

Ah and to be clear, I do not think scourge have a "high skill ceiling" but neither do I think that other professions do. It's just that, at one point when you've played enough of each and every professions, you more or less understand that none is "high ceiling", it's just whether or not you got the proper automatisms.

The reason why the elementalist is "almost non existant" is because each spec have it's own rythm and it's hard to switch. Tempest is what destroyed elementalists' players rythm. Had weaver been the first elementalist's e-spec released players would have adapted fairly easily to it because the rythm, despite being forced by the shared cool down of the attunment, is very similar to the old core elementalist rythm. It's not a matter of being skilled or not, it's just that the tempo is faster and when you've grown accustomed to a slower one it's painful to adapt.

Then let’s say Scourge has less weaknesses compared to others. And it needs to be brought in line.

I see many people adapting to Weaver to be fair. But it’s just not designed for PvP. Cellofrag for example. He plays Weaver so good and can beat most of the players we call good, but bring up another players with the same skill level as him, but as a thief. Or a warrior. Or a guardian. Elementalist will get destroyed. Same for Revenant. They are underpowered and require more skill to play.

This all leads to balance, though. If Weaver was as balanced as Scourge or Mirage, people will be crying out for nerfs to Weaver aswell.

Yes being brought in line is good, but it is very tough to bring it in line without gutting scourge.Its not so simple because scourge is designed as aoe build.If there was a way to make it strong in aoe but strong in single target, that would be great.Its good to know your at least getting the idea and not going rabid like some who want scourge and necro itself to be gutted and don't care if its bad for them.

[Imperadordf.2687]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I'm sorry to say it Mini Crinny but no profession really have a more skillfull gameplay than the necromancer.

Excuse me but...

LOL? Scourge was and still is one of the most braindead classes along with Pre-Patch Condi Mirage and Pre-Patch Firebrand.

I mean I could understand you if you said Revenant but otherwise, just lol.

Try reading what I wrote after. You are also bias in the way you perceive things. Scourge only have one thing for him and it's to cover area with it's poison. Doing it smartly and timing it's skills is as hard as what other professions have to do (Which mean it's not hard, indeed).

Are you of those that think that elementalist have a harder time because they have "more" skills? Nope, scourge have almost as may skills to use as an elementalist.Do you perhaps think that thiefs needs 200 IQ to do their job? Nope.Do you think an engineer is skilled because he got to remember it's kits skills? Nope, 99% of the engineers just spam their kits skills whenever they can.Do you think their is a need to go to an reknown highschool to play mesmer perhaps? Nope, just summon your clones and blow them.Do you think warrior or guardian are hard to play? Sorry but no. They've got pretty basic gameplay.Or maybe you think ranger are an example of skillfull gameplay? It's not, nope.You think poorly of the revenant? Well, it's actually as difficult with it than with the other professions.

You think that the scourge is harder to play because you think that it's granted that he got all the thng that other professions have. He doesn't. It's mobility is poor, it's defense is brittle, it's resilience to CC is pathetic. It's only job is area denying. If you think that him being good at doing it's job mean that it doesn't need as much skills as other professions, you're wrong.

There is plenty of flaw in the design of the scourge and I'd love to see it totally reworked, but saying that it's a profession that is easier than the other is purely wrong.

I mean of course I am biased, because I think Revenant is hard and underpowered, but you aren’t biased because you think Scourge has a high skill ceiling? Pfft.

For the other professions;

Elementalists : Yes, they are hard because you need to time your evades and Twist of Fate if you are a Weaver. Elementalists are almost non-existant in PvP, and people mostly play Scourge and Hammer Rev instead of DPS Ele in WvW.

SO DO NECROS!!! in fact:We lack tools to evade a lot of times, because we have so few mobility tools, and our defensives are being nerfed.Do you know how we escape? we use some ability for mobility or wurm and pray a thief or some other class with equal mobility cc doesn't catch us, or we are dead.

Thief : Some of their builds require some IQ like P/D or Rifle, but I agree with you on that.

Engineer : Not much like as you said, because Engineers really need to do combos to do damage, aside from Holosmith. But Holosmith wasn’t the real issue even before the Feb 6 patch - Scourge, Mirage and Firebrand were.

Mesmer : I never liked Mirage’s brainless gameplay anyway. Mesmer is definitely over the top, at the moment.

Warrior, Guardian, Ranger : Those are just bruisers or supports so I’m not going to comment on those, but Firebrand and Spellbreaker were OP, Druid still is.

Changed it for you

Reaper is like a tank irl, hard hitting, but slow, and has few defensives for defending against stuff like invulns and such But Scourge was hard hitting, and fragile.

Arenanet went the wrong way with Necromancer when balancing in my opinion.They should’ve lowered it’s ability to make capture points deadzones. Lowering it’s damage isn’t needed as much as it’s control abilities. They should’ve kept it’s damage high, but remove braindead skills like Sand Savant.

Clearly it sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.We use aoes to take advantage of our enemies.ITs not braindead at all, because we need to apply the right things in order to help win a point, and if we fail, our whole team dies and if they die WE DIE!!! see? don't equate mobility and evades as only way.We use our aoes as defensives.

They wanted to balance the class around PvP/WvW, and made it useless in PvE, just like they did with Deadeye Rifle.

Sorry, I’m on my phone so I can’t crop the post like i usually do to reply to certain things.

Firstly, Scourges didn’t need to escape at all. Their enemies were downed before they could even get below %50 health. Even if they did, they still got Desert Shroud which is an insane defensive skill. Necromancers can handle getting hit. Elementalists can’t. Necromancers have 19K health and highest armor rate for a Light Armor class.

Second, agree with you on Reaper, but Scourge wasn’t fragile at all. Look at Desert Shroud and Sand Flare. They are just too good. And they have 19K base HP, the meta Scourge build runs Deadshot Amulet which gives 1050 Toughness, or meta Scourge build in WvW runs Trailblazer/Dire which gives toughness aswell. So it has a lot of damage mitigation already.

Third, I know what I am talking about. I am talking about that braindead, unfun, boring and annoying trait. Yes, it’s Sand Savant. Pulsing AoE’s that convert boons and apply conditions in a 300 Radius area. 300 Radius... and they are spammable... 300 Radius is an entire capture point except in Legacy of the Foefire.

You don’t need to time them. You have 3 charges of Sand Shades. You can spam them and their cooldown isn’t that high.

You can’t fail or miss a Sand Shade. If you really fail to hit a Sand Shade the problem is you, not the class, sorry.

You don’t use AoEs as defense abilities. You use them to kill people, pressure people. Defending you is a Shade’s last purpose.

Yes you can.There is a delay, and also:You don't have the second health bar.Also besides that:You still have to lay down the ability, and it can be interrupted by a stun, so stun cc the necro.

AlsoIts unfun and braindead to blow up a necro and win instantly without any repercussions or ability to fight back.Scourges have less health than reapers.I think on reaper i had over 20k health or close to 30k health+ having shroud means i can take more damage, but same thing applies to scourge as reaper:They are vulnerable to ccs and to ranged.Go far and shoot them down with double pistol thief or deadeye, or range them on your ranger, or even range them on your warrior.Don't be stupid and stand in their aoes and you will win.In other words:Learn to play.They have been nerfed many times and nerfed hard now.If you can't win, its on you.

So you want me to play gimmick builds that won’t even help my team in any way, but just to kill the Scourge which can be resurrected by a Firebrand or a Druid easily? No thanks.

Look. I think we are talking about PvP here, so I’ll go with that.

You are comparing Reaper with Scourge. Both are Necromancer specializations.

You are saying that “I shouldn’t stay in their AoEs”. But you realize I need to capture that point somewhat right?

You are saying that I shouldn’t stay in their AoEs. But they have 900 RANGE, 300 RADIUS and they are SPAMMABLE.

Look, I don’t know what ranking are you on, but if you want me to play P/P Thief or Rifle Deadeye in Plat 3, better stop playing PvP for your teammates’ good.

They have been nerfed many times, wrong way. I am saying that they should remove Sand Savant, and revert back it’s damage to a respectable state. I wouldn’t care if they remove all the damaging conditions from Scourge, if I see that red circle AoE pulsing THE ENTIRE POINT , I’d hate that.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, I'm not biased because I do not play scourge ;) but I play all professions available HoT e-spec included. The point is that it's wrong to say that one is harder to play than another and scourge do not escape from this statement. All professions have glaring weakness that are easy to exploit.

Ah and to be clear, I do not think scourge have a "high skill ceiling" but neither do I think that other professions do. It's just that, at one point when you've played enough of each and every professions, you more or less understand that none is "high ceiling", it's just whether or not you got the proper automatisms.

The reason why the elementalist is "almost non existant" is because each spec have it's own rythm and it's hard to switch. Tempest is what destroyed elementalists' players rythm. Had weaver been the first elementalist's e-spec released players would have adapted fairly easily to it because the rythm, despite being forced by the shared cool down of the attunment, is very similar to the old core elementalist rythm. It's not a matter of being skilled or not, it's just that the tempo is faster and when you've grown accustomed to a slower one it's painful to adapt.

Then let’s say Scourge has less weaknesses compared to others. And it needs to be brought in line.

I see many people adapting to Weaver to be fair. But it’s just not designed for PvP. Cellofrag for example. He plays Weaver so good and can beat most of the players we call good, but bring up another players with the same skill level as him, but as a thief. Or a warrior. Or a guardian. Elementalist will get destroyed. Same for Revenant. They are underpowered and require more skill to play.

This all leads to balance, though. If Weaver was as balanced as Scourge or Mirage, people will be crying out for nerfs to Weaver aswell.

I can recall that there was someone that flooded the elem subforum with it's video of him on weaver going all the ways to the top in europe sPvP with a weaver. The guy wasn't even a PvP player but more of a WvW player. Yet elementalist's player denied it and tried to shut him.

Correctly built weaver have the potential to be a hard counter to the scourge. Weaver have plenty of defense and sustain that, if used, make him as resilient than a scourge and even more resilient in some situations. You think the elementalist is weak? You're playing it wrong. No, seriously. The elementalist is far from being weak, it's only issue is that it lack the ability to create window of opportunity to unload it's burst. If it had a way to do it, it would be unbeatable.

Like I said, the reason players want scourge to be nerfed to the ground is simply the way they see it. They are not objective. All players should play all professions and forgot this stupid idea of having a "main character" that lead to favouritism.

The reality is that nerfing it lead to nowhere, the spec need a redesign, because reducing number won't do any good. The layers upon layers of effects procced by the shades skills are at fault and the core necromancer is already to weak to suffer a nerf on those traits for the sake of the scourge.

[Imperadordf.2687]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well, I'm not biased because I do not play scourge ;) but I play all professions available HoT e-spec included. The point is that it's wrong to say that one is harder to play than another and scourge do not escape from this statement. All professions have glaring weakness that are easy to exploit.

Ah and to be clear, I do not think scourge have a "high skill ceiling" but neither do I think that other professions do. It's just that, at one point when you've played enough of each and every professions, you more or less understand that none is "high ceiling", it's just whether or not you got the proper automatisms.

The reason why the elementalist is "almost non existant" is because each spec have it's own rythm and it's hard to switch. Tempest is what destroyed elementalists' players rythm. Had weaver been the first elementalist's e-spec released players would have adapted fairly easily to it because the rythm, despite being forced by the shared cool down of the attunment, is very similar to the old core elementalist rythm. It's not a matter of being skilled or not, it's just that the tempo is faster and when you've grown accustomed to a slower one it's painful to adapt.

Then let’s say Scourge has less weaknesses compared to others. And it needs to be brought in line.

I see many people adapting to Weaver to be fair. But it’s just not designed for PvP. Cellofrag for example. He plays Weaver so good and can beat most of the players we call good, but bring up another players with the same skill level as him, but as a thief. Or a warrior. Or a guardian. Elementalist will get destroyed. Same for Revenant. They are underpowered and require more skill to play.

This all leads to balance, though. If Weaver was as balanced as Scourge or Mirage, people will be crying out for nerfs to Weaver aswell.

Like I said, the reason players want scourge to be nerfed to the ground is simply the way they see it. They are not objective. All players should play all professions and forgot this stupid idea of having a "main character" that lead to favouritism.

The reality is that nerfing it lead to nowhere, the spec need a redesign, because reducing number won't do any good. The layers upon layers of effects procced by the shades skills are at fault and the core necromancer is already to weak to suffer a nerf on those traits for the sake of the scourge.

I get your point but if every single player except Scourge mains are complaining about something, there’s an issue. Even some Scourge mains know that it’s overpowered.

Biased or not, almost every player thinks Scourge is overpowered, but they don’t know what makes it that way. You already know it.Sand Savant and constant condition application.

They removed constant condition application, which was a mistake. This lowered Scourge DPS a lot in PvE. And Scourge isn’t taken for it’s damage now as far as I know in WvW. It’s taken for boonhate. Lowering its damage that much was a mistake.

If they removed Sand Savant and kept Scourge’s damage still good. There wouldn’t be that much complaints. Sand Savant just makes it unfun.

[Coffietire.2783]

They'll nerf the damage until the support aspects of the spec look good in comparison.

[Axl.8924]

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well, I'm not biased because I do not play scourge ;) but I play all professions available HoT e-spec included. The point is that it's wrong to say that one is harder to play than another and scourge do not escape from this statement. All professions have glaring weakness that are easy to exploit.

Ah and to be clear, I do not think scourge have a "high skill ceiling" but neither do I think that other professions do. It's just that, at one point when you've played enough of each and every professions, you more or less understand that none is "high ceiling", it's just whether or not you got the proper automatisms.

The reason why the elementalist is "almost non existant" is because each spec have it's own rythm and it's hard to switch. Tempest is what destroyed elementalists' players rythm. Had weaver been the first elementalist's e-spec released players would have adapted fairly easily to it because the rythm, despite being forced by the shared cool down of the attunment, is very similar to the old core elementalist rythm. It's not a matter of being skilled or not, it's just that the tempo is faster and when you've grown accustomed to a slower one it's painful to adapt.

Then let’s say Scourge has less weaknesses compared to others. And it needs to be brought in line.

I see many people adapting to Weaver to be fair. But it’s just not designed for PvP. Cellofrag for example. He plays Weaver so good and can beat most of the players we call good, but bring up another players with the same skill level as him, but as a thief. Or a warrior. Or a guardian. Elementalist will get destroyed. Same for Revenant. They are underpowered and require more skill to play.

This all leads to balance, though. If Weaver was as balanced as Scourge or Mirage, people will be crying out for nerfs to Weaver aswell.

Like I said, the reason players want scourge to be nerfed to the ground is simply the way they see it. They are not objective. All players should play all professions and forgot this stupid idea of having a "main character" that lead to favouritism.

The reality is that nerfing it lead to nowhere, the spec need a redesign, because reducing number won't do any good. The layers upon layers of effects procced by the shades skills are at fault and the core necromancer is already to weak to suffer a nerf on those traits for the sake of the scourge.

I get your point but if every single player except Scourge mains are complaining about something, there’s an issue. Even some Scourge mains know that it’s overpowered.

Biased or not, almost every player thinks Scourge is overpowered, but they don’t know what makes it that way. You already know it.Sand Savant and constant condition application.

They removed constant condition application, which was a mistake. This lowered Scourge DPS a lot in PvE. And Scourge isn’t taken for it’s damage now as far as I know in WvW. It’s taken for boonhate. Lowering its damage that much was a mistake.

If they removed Sand Savant and kept Scourge’s damage still good. There wouldn’t be that much complaints. Sand Savant just makes it unfun.

Sand savant is how we spread condis and boon corrupt.Like it or not, everything that is involved with scourge is asurrounded its f1-f5 buttons.In order to do what you say would require huge amounts of overhaul, and good luck with that happening.I get the feeling they will nerf it until everyone stops complaining, and at that point every necro will jump ship and either leave to anotehr spec, or quit the game.It will be nerfed hard until its gutted.

If staff is buffed, then people will cry and that will be nerfed again into the ground.If scepter is buffed, it will give more condis and also more boon corrupt on single target, and people will get mad and stamp their feet.Reaper used to give chill from what i heard, and players stamped their feet hard till that got nerfed and reaper became free kills in 1v1 situations vs all classes, and they still have loads of problems in spvp in solo queue, and are still underpowered for pve.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Axl.8924 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:The thing is. It was good, that scourge got tuned down in wvw.But still eles are the main dmg sources there, not scourges. But almost noone realizes that, and so, everyone is just spamming scourge, and so: everyone dies from ita conditions.

...Wat

This is just completely false. Everyone dies from its conditions because conditions ignore armor/sustained defenses which everyone stacks and the scourge counters its own counter of resistance by being able to corrupt it into immobilize which denies blocks, and WoR prevents new boons/resists after a corrupt bomb.

Ele only used to be primary damage/huge damage by bombing the backline with MS's, but we haven't seen that since before Pirate Ship like two years ago.

Condis ARE SUPPOSED TO HURT!! if condis didn't hurt there would be a lot of specs useless, and boon corrupt is needed to keep boons in line.

If you have a problem with boon corrupt, then make sure you have no boons on you.No boons, no corrupts.

I don't think you read or understood what I wrote because nowhere did I complain about condition damage being overpowered in this context.

[Axl.8924]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

This is just completely false. Everyone dies from its conditions because conditions ignore armor/sustained defenses which everyone stacks and the scourge counters its own counter of resistance by being able to corrupt it into immobilize which denies blocks, and WoR prevents new boons/resists after a corrupt bomb.

Ele only used to be primary damage/huge damage by bombing the backline with MS's, but we haven't seen that since before Pirate Ship like two years ago.

You are complaining about condi first doing damage through toughness.Second part you complain about boon corrupt so yes you said it.

You are angry because boon corrupt is working vs boon spam and condis are killing people through toughness.There is already a limit of damage you can do with bleeds and burns with the amount of stacks, and necros do less than others in condi, and if toughness hit them they would never kill anyone.Getting rid of boon corrupt would also make necros weak because they couldn't cripple people or strip them of defenses, and necros would be unable to kill anyone.

Necros don't work like thieves who steal boons or strip them and get them for themselves, they corrupt boons and turn them into conditions, hurting boon spammers who are unconciencious about necros or scourges.To me:Working as intended.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@"Axl.8924" said:Sand savant is how we spread condis and boon corrupt.Like it or not, everything that is involved with scourge is asurrounded its f1-f5 buttons.In order to do what you say would require huge amounts of overhaul, and good luck with that happening.I get the feeling they will nerf it until everyone stops complaining, and at that point every necro will jump ship and either leave to anotehr spec, or quit the game.It will be nerfed hard until its gutted.Sand Savant is NOT how we spread condis and boon corrupt. It's just how we cover way too much area.

Unfortunately, until Sand Savant no longer covers an entire capture point, Scourge will keep getting more and more nerfs thrown at it. Viability of the spec doesn't actually matter in this respect because the ability to have the entire capture point always susceptible to instant cast skills for 100% of the fight is oppressive.

Sand Savant needs to lose the radius increase (and subsequently, the "single-shade" aspect) if Scourge is going to avoid being nerfed beyond hope of recovery.

[Axl.8924]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:Sand savant is how we spread condis and boon corrupt.Like it or not, everything that is involved with scourge is asurrounded its f1-f5 buttons.In order to do what you say would require huge amounts of overhaul, and good luck with that happening.I get the feeling they will nerf it until everyone stops complaining, and at that point every necro will jump ship and either leave to anotehr spec, or quit the game.It will be nerfed hard until its gutted.Sand Savant is NOT how we spread condis and boon corrupt. It's just how we cover way too much area.

Unfortunately, until Sand Savant no longer covers an entire capture point, Scourge will keep getting more and more nerfs thrown at it. Viability of the spec doesn't actually matter in this respect because the ability to have the entire capture point always susceptible to instant cast skills for 100% of the fight is oppressive.

Sand Savant needs to lose the radius increase (and subsequently, the "single-shade" aspect) if Scourge is going to avoid being nerfed beyond hope of recovery.

Yes because sand shades acts like the way phantasms works for mesmers.First you put them down, then you activate them and then they let their payload outDifference is:it doesn't run towards you and explode because once its on the ground, its static.Its a sort of group defensives we use to help counter enemy teams, and its where a lot of condi and boon corrupt comes from.We can boon corrupt and condi, but a lot also comes from our shades.

[Nimon.7840]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:But still eles are the main dmg sources there, not scourges. But almost noone realizes that, and so, everyone is just spamming scourge, and so: everyone dies from ita conditions.

In my experience that is only the case in choke fights. Open field, scourge still rules supreme (as I found out yesterday when I was constantly top dps in my guild whilst running full trails - the other scourges ran cele).

Cele isnt good dmg wise. Just a bit supporty and only worth if you arent more than 20-30 people.Trailblaizer scourges generate downs way easier and faster.And the thing is.Ele will never be top dps in arcdps in wvw.

First of all, arc doesnt show dps correctly if you are hitting something over 1000 range.Second it resets pretty often in wvw as soon as you stop doing dmg.

But there is sadly most of the people not realizing that.

[Lahmia.2193]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:But still eles are the main dmg sources there, not scourges. But almost noone realizes that, and so, everyone is just spamming scourge, and so: everyone dies from ita conditions.

In my experience that is only the case in choke fights. Open field, scourge still rules supreme (as I found out yesterday when I was constantly top dps in my guild whilst running full trails - the other scourges ran cele).

Cele isnt good dmg wise. Just a bit supporty and only worth if you arent more than 20-30 people.Trailblaizer scourges generate downs way easier and faster.And the thing is.Ele will never be top dps in arcdps in wvw.

First of all, arc doesnt show dps correctly if you are hitting something over 1000 range.Second it resets pretty often in wvw as soon as you stop doing dmg.

But there is sadly most of the people not realizing that.

I can't speak for Arc since I don't run it. It's just what the guild was told by the guy running it.

[ZDragon.3046]

Scourge like will see more reductions in overall damage burst but likely not by changing direct damage numbers. It will likely be in the form of cooldowns or specific traits working less effective directly with the scourge mechanic.

I find it funny how we were told that after scourge was bugged fixed that they would look into bringing more power back into scourge yet it has suffered reduction after reduction patch after patch and the next one will be no different. I'm not even a scourge player and can see the injustice in whats being done here.If you want a spec to be less offensive the subject it to having improved defensive or supportive abilities but scourges have yet to see that either in fact their support got nipped in the butt too.

It feels wrong to say but im so happy I didn't invest too much into trying to jump on the scourge train. Its got great utility but will forever be gated due to how upsetting the shade mechanics are. Its painfully clear that while socurge was a give in to players crying for necro without a shroud that it simply is way too flawed in design.

Left it bugged for 3 weeks upon release allowing it to put a rotting taste in any non scourge players mouth. (no matter how much anet adjust this elite spec it will forever be to blame if its in play during a battle that a non scourge player looses)

Visual noise is now insaneMain mechanic skills constantly getting cut in effectivenessOdd mix of traits that are lackluster or reduce the effectiveness of its main mechanic

Ill be waiting for the next necro elite spec if there will be one and hope that it just deals with giving us a new type of shroud instead.

[Axl.8924]

It doesn't matter zdragon, because when Anet is done gutting scourge, leaving necros in the dust and without hope for any thought besides being ok in WVW, it will be next druids or thieves, then mesmers.

People will continue to cry.Look at how people are already crying for nerfs for thieves attacks.Look how unfair nerfs are hittting druid spec healing part, which is mostly defensive and healing. and yet after the nerfs, people are still crying.

What the heck do they want? Do they really want druids to be ruined?.

And when the next elite specs come out, it will be the same shennanigans all over.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Axl.8924 said:It doesn't matter zdragon, because when Anet is done gutting scourge, leaving necros in the dust and without hope for any thought besides being ok in WVW, it will be next druids or thieves, then mesmers.

People will continue to cry.Look at how people are already crying for nerfs for thieves attacks.Look how unfair nerfs are hittting druid spec healing part, which is mostly defensive and healing. and yet after the nerfs, people are still crying.

What the heck do they want? Do they really want druids to be ruined?.

And when the next elite specs come out, it will be the same shennanigans all over.

Its not completely gutted just yet nor will it be after this patch it yes it will push more players off the elite spec or profession but there will still be scourges and i dont doubt that they will still be rather meta on the pvp side of things.Now if they continue after this patch to lower its effectiveness without giving it buffs in its supportive or defensive areas then yes it will become a gutted spec.

Some auto chains did need some minor reductions like it or not spamming auto can be considered passive play if the auto is doing so much damage that you can feely spam skills mindlessly knowing (I can just auto and win) People who play like that will be hurt by those hits to thief auto and spell breaker auto.

Ideally most thieves wont be effected by the auto chain nerf because thats not where the damage comes from in most cases against good skillful players. If a thief is autoing you they they likely have a massive advantage on you (hp lead, you are under some form of cc, or literally about to be downed. That said the dangerous parts of dagger and sword got buffed or remained un touched so thief comes out overall fine. In fact they are one of the professions that likely wont be hindered by the next patch too much.

They want druids to commit to being more active with skill and not simply camping off healing power while the pet hits harder than the player while moving at a speed that your enemy cant get away from. Durid got some reductions rightfully along with firebrand.

As far as the elite specs maybe maybe not

[Axl.8924]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:It doesn't matter zdragon, because when Anet is done gutting scourge, leaving necros in the dust and without hope for any thought besides being ok in WVW, it will be next druids or thieves, then mesmers.

People will continue to cry.Look at how people are already crying for nerfs for thieves attacks.Look how unfair nerfs are hittting druid spec healing part, which is mostly defensive and healing. and yet after the nerfs, people are still crying.

What the heck do they want? Do they really want druids to be ruined?.

And when the next elite specs come out, it will be the same shennanigans all over.

Its not completely gutted just yet nor will it be after this patch it yes it will push more players off the elite spec or profession but there will still be scourges and i dont doubt that they will still be rather meta on the pvp side of things.Now if they continue after this patch to lower its effectiveness without giving it buffs in its supportive or defensive areas then yes it will become a gutted spec.

Some auto chains did need some minor reductions like it or not spamming auto can be considered passive play if the auto is doing so much damage that you can feely spam skills mindlessly knowing (I can just auto and win) People who play like that will be hurt by those hits to thief auto and spell breaker auto.

Ideally most thieves wont be effected by the auto chain nerf because thats not where the damage comes from in most cases against good skillful players. If a thief is autoing you they they likely have a massive advantage on you (hp lead, you are under some form of cc, or literally about to be downed. That said the dangerous parts of dagger and sword got buffed or remained un touched so thief comes out overall fine. In fact they are one of the professions that likely wont be hindered by the next patch too much.

They want druids to commit to being more active with skill and not simply camping off healing power while the pet hits harder than the player while moving at a speed that your enemy cant get away from. Durid got some reductions rightfully along with firebrand.

As far as the elite specs maybe maybe not

Perhaps some do mindlessly spam some of their aoes , but taking away more condi or putting more cds on top will just leave scourge in a bad area.I can't imagine people being happy if scourge ends up in the same situation as reaper or worse in spvp.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Likely yes, I just hope it doesn't come in the form of increased cool downs. Those are just an annoyance and doesn't address the primary concern of the players that whine about them; getting wiped out in the initial bomb which is the fault of being hit by multiple scourge at once.

It wouldn't matter if they increased all the cool downs; reduced the radius of the shade, reduced the damage of the conditions only to scourge, and even added in an additional delays in casting (imagine how gimpy that would look), players will still die with multiple shade bombs. It's a case of players failing to adapt and refusal to get on classes that can easily deal with the scourge.

I wonder though, is the primary complaint of the scourge is that it covers an entire capture point? If this is the case, would players simply be happy the radius was reduced in PvP only?

I'm actually not even sure how scourge could be nerfed more. You can't exclusively reduce the damage of conditions on the scourge. Increasing the cool downs is likely going to make players drop the class all together. Reducing shade sizes or how they interact would trigger a major rework, something we aren't likely to see for months and months even if it happens. The stacks have already been reduced to 1 per each condition applied. What exactly are the whiners realistically expecting from the scourge spec? Maybe that is the question they have to ask themselves? It's a bit naive to think your allowed to simply run into a zerg battle with a single condition clear and expect to come out alive.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@"Obtena.7952" said:The design was flawed for PVP/WVW in the first place ... I would have liked to think Anet learned a bit from DH Trapper ... but they took that idea and made it even worse on Scourge ... OK. DH trapper should have been the limit for AOE denial/control and if Anet is smart, that's where Scourge will have to be brought down to as well.

The problem is Scourge, like DH trapper is only OP vs lower tiers. Sadly that's where most people are, and eve sadder, Arena Net balances via popular vote. So we got the tragedy that is Scourge atm. That and because they wanted to fix a mechanical problem with number tweaks.

Like a lot of people said before in this thread, and i've been saying for a long time. Scourge was always one of the best balanced professions for PvP EVER period. The only glaring issue was lack of interaction with the sand shades, which allowed it to dominate points easily. But this could have been handled with a lot fo fun ways, like crating a temporary no-shade zone on an area after the shades dissipate, to force the Scourge to "manage" the terrain better (like Taliyah in LoL) or make it work like renegade summons or like GW1 Ritualist spirits (as in targetabble and killable, or better yet CC to kill, since CC is one of Necro's weaknesses). Aside from that, Scourge is clearly weak vs power and ranged damage, and clearly strong in melee (because he has PBAOE skills when activating shades) and vs condi, and hurts like a b*tch if you have too many boons. So there was always a clear counter.

Problem is, most people in GW2 PvP don't think about counters, they don't think about switching classes to counter the enemy team. Because that's not ingrained in the match-making process, so people assume that they don't have to think about what's pretty much the largest strategical component in every PvP game: countering your enemy's picks..That's why they keep complaining about team comps when the enemy clearly switched classes to improve their odds, instead of doing the same thing.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Axl.8924 said:

Perhaps some do mindlessly spam some of their aoes , but taking away more condi or putting more cds on top will just leave scourge in a bad area.I can't imagine people being happy if scourge ends up in the same situation as reaper or worse in spvp.

Mindless spam of aoes... if its mindless that means you should be able to avoid it easily more less it shouldnt even hit you so whats the problem? Maybe its not mindless and you are mindlessly running into the those aoe circles? The whole poin of scourge is area denial / control ideally if you put down a shade its an area that you dont want people to stand in or an area that you want to control. I dont think thats mindless. Whats mindless is trying to fight said scourge in that location.