Is scourge going to take even more nerfs?

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:The design was flawed for PVP/WVW in the first place ... I would have liked to think Anet learned a bit from DH Trapper ... but they took that idea and made it even worse on Scourge ... OK. DH trapper should have been the limit for AOE denial/control and if Anet is smart, that's where Scourge will have to be brought down to as well.

The problem is Scourge, like DH trapper is only OP vs lower tiers.Then please tell me why every single tournament team without exception brings at least one Scourge.

Scourge actually scales extremely well with skill and imho actually performs better at higher tiers.

You have less right to complain about scourge or necros since engineers are wanted in every game mode.

metabattle:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Engineer

Holosmith is viable in every game mode and core is desired for fractals with condi.On qt core seems to be viable and so is holo for raids

Necros have EXACTLY ONE META BUILD FOR RAIDS:condi scourge, and once scourge gets nerfed into the ground, not even that.

Even for other things scourge ouplays the other builds because it simply needs help.Now tell me how bad engineer is again?

Deceiver XI wasn't complaining.

You said that elementalists are the real damage dealers and that people are complaining about dying to scourge condi spam.

The truth is that people aren't dying to elementalists (barely anyone even plays them anymore), and people are dying to scourges because everyone runs massive boons. Scourge counters everything because corruptions + conditions in bulk are countering their own counterplay at the moment, which is exactly what I said about resistance.

And you can't run boonless builds. I even said this in my post. Boonless builds just get immediately dumpstered by anything running boons - corrupts or not - because capping boons is literally equal to doubling stats from gear, and it's extremely hard to make a build these days that's even somewhat cohesive that doesn't use boons.Saying "Yeah, just make yourself half as strong as your opponents and don't protect yourself from mass condition application/damage to begin with" is laughable.

I dunno if you're aware, but converting 1 stack of might into weakness is the same as cutting power damage by 75% for 5 seconds, without Expertise. Good luck finding builds with zero might access that deal respectable damage. You can't even do that on thief because you need ToTC for the on-demand fury in order to crit.

Well eles are considered fairly squishy, the issue is not as much eles, as guardians thieves warriors and mesmers and probably holosmiths who can cut down a necro.

Nerfing its weakness and not compensating is still a big problem, as it leads to massive gaps of being weak to everything and strong against few things, which isn't a good feeling.Think about how it feels on reaper necros to take stuff like poison cloud, but its still sucks and we die anyways to rangers

Thieves get might from attacking, and they can easily range people.They also get speed up from evading on daredevil.If necro didn't have corrupt, they would be unable to kill anything, like thieves.How do we catch a thief off guard? corrupt their speed and watch them die.Also.If resist was invulnerable to boon corrupt, it would make all boon spams op and necros would be useless.Don't gut scourge anymore, why don't you just cut everyone elses boon spams instead? Necros and especially scourges already took enough hits and don't need anymore nerfs.

Eles can run boonless as well with tempest, as a lot of that comes from either earth or from overload.Druids gain might for sure when they hit 1, but they can range it.

Also:Remember what happened to reaper in spvp:The nerfs made reaper unfun in spvp and easy free kills if alone and now reaper shroud goes down faster than ever and they were already fairly easy to kill due to lack of invulns and other stuff, and we were viable before this in spvp, just ridiculously hard due to needing someone to babysit us 24/7 and heal us so we can support them.

Still the one thing reapers gott o enjoy the most was WVW.

If anet takes away that too along with spvp and pve, I'm done and i quit this game.

I had to take a while to understand what you were even saying. PLEASE use the quote function or put > before what other people type. Holy moly.

Thing is, almost none of what you said here is true. I'm sorry to say this but with what you've said about thief above and posting this... you have no idea what you're talking about.

Reaper as a whole didn't get nerfed out of playability because it was over-performing or because people complained lol. ANet gutted SR to make scourge not overpowered and then also proceeded to just gut RShroud for shiggles. Power reaper was a common build in the top 100 of PvP and I played it for several hundred hours roaming in WvW without issue. Condi reaper was overtuned and got over-nerfed in sPvP but not WvW because ANet also can't seem to figure out how to balance its bleeds by nerfing DChill to 1 stack and just buffing chill access across RShroud which all builds would have benefited from to prevent escapes, which was a problem the spec has and will continue to have. If you're setting WvW condi reaper as the power benchmark for what necro should be, you're confirming you have no idea what you're talking about: EVERYONE knew it was completely overpowered with 3 stacks per DC proc. Even the people playing it knew.

[Axl.8924]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:The design was flawed for PVP/WVW in the first place ... I would have liked to think Anet learned a bit from DH Trapper ... but they took that idea and made it even worse on Scourge ... OK. DH trapper should have been the limit for AOE denial/control and if Anet is smart, that's where Scourge will have to be brought down to as well.

The problem is Scourge, like DH trapper is only OP vs lower tiers.Then please tell me why every single tournament team without exception brings at least one Scourge.

Scourge actually scales extremely well with skill and imho actually performs better at higher tiers.

You have less right to complain about scourge or necros since engineers are wanted in every game mode.

metabattle:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Engineer

Holosmith is viable in every game mode and core is desired for fractals with condi.On qt core seems to be viable and so is holo for raids

Necros have EXACTLY ONE META BUILD FOR RAIDS:condi scourge, and once scourge gets nerfed into the ground, not even that.

Even for other things scourge ouplays the other builds because it simply needs help.Now tell me how bad engineer is again?

Deceiver XI wasn't complaining.

You said that elementalists are the real damage dealers and that people are complaining about dying to scourge condi spam.

The truth is that people aren't dying to elementalists (barely anyone even plays them anymore), and people are dying to scourges because everyone runs massive boons. Scourge counters everything because corruptions + conditions in bulk are countering their own counterplay at the moment, which is exactly what I said about resistance.

And you can't run boonless builds. I even said this in my post. Boonless builds just get immediately dumpstered by anything running boons - corrupts or not - because capping boons is literally equal to doubling stats from gear, and it's extremely hard to make a build these days that's even somewhat cohesive that doesn't use boons.Saying "Yeah, just make yourself half as strong as your opponents and don't protect yourself from mass condition application/damage to begin with" is laughable.

I dunno if you're aware, but converting 1 stack of might into weakness is the same as cutting power damage by 75% for 5 seconds, without Expertise. Good luck finding builds with zero might access that deal respectable damage. You can't even do that on thief because you need ToTC for the on-demand fury in order to crit.

Well eles are considered fairly squishy, the issue is not as much eles, as guardians thieves warriors and mesmers and probably holosmiths who can cut down a necro.

Nerfing its weakness and not compensating is still a big problem, as it leads to massive gaps of being weak to everything and strong against few things, which isn't a good feeling.Think about how it feels on reaper necros to take stuff like poison cloud, but its still sucks and we die anyways to rangers

Thieves get might from attacking, and they can easily range people.They also get speed up from evading on daredevil.If necro didn't have corrupt, they would be unable to kill anything, like thieves.How do we catch a thief off guard? corrupt their speed and watch them die.Also.If resist was invulnerable to boon corrupt, it would make all boon spams op and necros would be useless.Don't gut scourge anymore, why don't you just cut everyone elses boon spams instead? Necros and especially scourges already took enough hits and don't need anymore nerfs.

Eles can run boonless as well with tempest, as a lot of that comes from either earth or from overload.Druids gain might for sure when they hit 1, but they can range it.

Also:Remember what happened to reaper in spvp:The nerfs made reaper unfun in spvp and easy free kills if alone and now reaper shroud goes down faster than ever and they were already fairly easy to kill due to lack of invulns and other stuff, and we were viable before this in spvp, just ridiculously hard due to needing someone to babysit us 24/7 and heal us so we can support them.

Still the one thing reapers gott o enjoy the most was WVW.

If anet takes away that too along with spvp and pve, I'm done and i quit this game.

I had to take a while to understand what you were even saying. PLEASE use the quote function or put > before what other people type. Holy moly.

Thing is, almost none of what you said here is true. I'm sorry to say this but with what you've said about thief above and posting this... you have no idea what you're talking about.

Reaper as a whole didn't get nerfed out of playability because it was over-performing or because people complained lol. ANet gutted SR to make scourge not overpowered and then also proceeded to just gut RShroud for shiggles. Power reaper was a common build in the top 100 of PvP and I played it for several hundred hours roaming in WvW without issue. Condi reaper was overtuned and got over-nerfed in sPvP but not WvW because ANet also can't seem to figure out how to balance its bleeds by nerfing DChill to 1 stack and just buffing chill access across RShroud which all builds would have benefited from to prevent escapes, which was a problem the spec has and will continue to have. If you're setting WvW condi reaper as the power benchmark for what necro should be, you're confirming you have no idea what you're talking about: EVERYONE knew it was completely overpowered with 3 stacks per DC proc. Even the people playing it knew.

I wasn't a master, but i did wvw and had fun before POF came out.I was using a meta build.Heard about power reapers in wvw, seen some, but i see meta with shoutmancer hybrids and stuff like that.

What i was refering to anyways was spvp being tough but whatever.I mean i wasn't a master but i was playing in ranked and unranked and it was frustrating solo queue and getting wrecked by players because they did so much damage.

[Jski.6180]

As long as they are able to use a pAoE at the shade and have the effect trigger on there feet the scourge class is going to keep getting nerf because this effect alone allows for what should be balanced dmg condi effect and support to be to powerful. They need to stop letting these effect trigger on the scourge it self if there is a shade in effect.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Jski.6180 said:As long as they are able to use a pAoE at the shade and have the effect trigger on there feet the scourge class is going to keep getting nerf because this effect alone allows for what should be balanced dmg condi effect and support to be to powerful. They need to stop letting these effect trigger on the scourge it self if there is a shade in effect.

I can tell you're not a Mesmer player. They used to have to trait for their Shatter skills to count the Mesmer herself as an illusion. This ended up getting baselined because the profession just didn't work well without it.

[Jski.6180]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As long as they are able to use a pAoE at the shade and have the effect trigger on there feet the scourge class is going to keep getting nerf because this effect alone allows for what should be balanced dmg condi effect and support to be to powerful. They need to stop letting these effect trigger on the scourge it self if there is a shade in effect.

I can tell you're not a Mesmer player. They used to have to trait for their Shatter skills to count the Mesmer herself as an illusion. This ended up getting baselined because the profession just didn't work well without it.

Very different effect the shatter on the mez dose not give our barrier as well as dmg boon conversion condi clears and condi dmg at all the same time. As well as these illusion must get to there target to land there effect as well. If a mez shatters it getting effect from on use of shatter not from the fact your a images doing the effect. Scorge is gaining full benefit from all of there skills at all points of the game at all points of there build.

If you want the nerfs to stop the only way its going to happen is in effect make scorge a hard to play class by making a real chose of using a shad giving your ranged aoe or keeping the effect on your self any thing else is going to make the out put of scorge f1-f4 to much (as its a doable effect).

Images if all pAoE worked like this how broken would a gurd using purging flame both at its feet and target AoE. If a mez could use time warp at its feet and its aoe if a spell barker could use winds of disenchantment at its feet and target aoe. There a reason why lots of pAoE have strong effects because they are very limited to there size of AoE. This is why wells on necro are strong yet weak. On that same note images if necro wells where both at there feet and on an pAoE. That IS in a nutshell why scorge is getting nerf and will keep getting nerf.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:As long as they are able to use a pAoE at the shade and have the effect trigger on there feet the scourge class is going to keep getting nerf because this effect alone allows for what should be balanced dmg condi effect and support to be to powerful. They need to stop letting these effect trigger on the scourge it self if there is a shade in effect.

I can tell you're not a Mesmer player. They used to have to trait for their Shatter skills to count the Mesmer herself as an illusion. This ended up getting baselined because the profession just didn't work well without it.

Well, I wouldn't say that, the profession also worked well without it. But, at the same time, the mesmer and the necromancer are very different in all aspect.

Shades affect do not stack in intensity while shatter skills do. Scourge is supposed to control an area while the mesmer do not. Scourge is pretty much immobile while the mesmer is supposed to be mobile... etc.

From the very beginning, the issue have never been the coverage, having an effect over a wide area just can't be seen as "OP". There are already plenty of skills that cover large area since launch of the game and nobody complain about them, nor do they need any complain.

The real issue is that scourge's shroud skills have to many overlapping effects, achieving offense, support and defense in an instant. On top of it you got the infamous desert shroud which have nasty effects (yet far from being "strong") and basically no counters.

It's not anything new for the necromancer, the shroud already suffer from that. Anet put to much load on shroud/shroud skills creating an overpowered potential, yet nerfing it to the ground. At the moment, entering a shade range has become very forgiving, at least a lot more forgiving than entering a meteor shower range ;) , yet the lack of ability to prevent the necromancer from using it's shroud skills make you feel insecure while in the shades.

I wish anet could have come up with something less impactfull on foes but with a greater impact on allies. All in all, the shade mechanism would have received less complaint if it wasn't this much of an offensive tool and more of a support tool. All the issues lie there, there is to much offense on a tool that should be a support tool. It shouldn't have been that difficult to transfer a large part of the shade offense onto scourge utilities for example. The only tricky part might have been to translate all the on shroud#1 trait effects.

[Nord.1492]

@Axl.8924 said:...because everyone runs massive boons.

I dont get it why people not complaining about THIS. Its massively unfair that some classes are running millions of boons, hitting like a truck, almost invulnerable complaining about the only class which makes shit right.

[Khailyn.6248]

@Jski.6180 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As long as they are able to use a pAoE at the shade and have the effect trigger on there feet the scourge class is going to keep getting nerf because this effect alone allows for what should be balanced dmg condi effect and support to be to powerful. They need to stop letting these effect trigger on the scourge it self if there is a shade in effect.

I can tell you're not a Mesmer player. They used to have to trait for their Shatter skills to count the Mesmer herself as an illusion. This ended up getting baselined because the profession just didn't work well without it.

Very different effect the shatter on the mez dose not give our barrier as well as dmg boon conversion condi clears and condi dmg at all the same time. As well as these illusion must get to there target to land there effect as well. If a mez shatters it getting effect from on use of shatter not from the fact your a images doing the effect. Scorge is gaining full benefit from all of there skills at all points of the game at all points of there build.

If you want the nerfs to stop the only way its going to happen is in effect make scorge a hard to play class by making a real chose of using a shad giving your ranged aoe or keeping the effect on your self any thing else is going to make the out put of scorge f1-f4 to much (as its a doable effect).

Images if all pAoE worked like this how broken would a gurd using purging flame both at its feet and target AoE. If a mez could use time warp at its feet and its aoe if a spell barker could use winds of disenchantment at its feet and target aoe. There a reason why lots of pAoE have strong effects because they are very limited to there size of AoE. This is why wells on necro are strong yet weak. On that same note images if necro wells where both at there feet and on an pAoE. That IS in a nutshell why scorge is getting nerf and will keep getting nerf.

Scourge shroud skills have a lot more similarity to mesmer shatters than you want to admit. You say mesmer doesnt have shroud, which is true. They have distortion which is much better. But what about the other effects? Shatter skills have synergy across all of their trait lines to boost shatter ability and gain extra effects from boon corrupt, healing, vulnerability to even gaining stability. Comparing the effects of the two is completely appropriate.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shatter

[Jski.6180]

@Khailyn.6248 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As long as they are able to use a pAoE at the shade and have the effect trigger on there feet the scourge class is going to keep getting nerf because this effect alone allows for what should be balanced dmg condi effect and support to be to powerful. They need to stop letting these effect trigger on the scourge it self if there is a shade in effect.

I can tell you're not a Mesmer player. They used to have to trait for their Shatter skills to count the Mesmer herself as an illusion. This ended up getting baselined because the profession just didn't work well without it.

Very different effect the shatter on the mez dose not give our barrier as well as dmg boon conversion condi clears and condi dmg at all the same time. As well as these illusion must get to there target to land there effect as well. If a mez shatters it getting effect from on use of shatter not from the fact your a images doing the effect. Scorge is gaining full benefit from all of there skills at all points of the game at all points of there build.

If you want the nerfs to stop the only way its going to happen is in effect make scorge a hard to play class by making a real chose of using a shad giving your ranged aoe or keeping the effect on your self any thing else is going to make the out put of scorge f1-f4 to much (as its a doable effect).

Images if all pAoE worked like this how broken would a gurd using purging flame both at its feet and target AoE. If a mez could use time warp at its feet and its aoe if a spell barker could use winds of disenchantment at its feet and target aoe. There a reason why lots of pAoE have strong effects because they are very limited to there size of AoE. This is why wells on necro are strong yet weak. On that same note images if necro wells where both at there feet and on an pAoE. That IS in a nutshell why scorge is getting nerf and will keep getting nerf.

Scourge shroud skills have a lot more similarity to mesmer shatters than you want to admit. You say mesmer doesnt have shroud, which is true. They have distortion which is much better. But what about the other effects? Shatter skills have synergy across all of their trait lines to boost shatter ability and gain extra effects from boon corrupt, healing, vulnerability to even gaining stability. Comparing the effects of the two is completely appropriate.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shatter

They are most definitely not even close they are effectually pets that must get to there target to have an effect. Scourge only needs to drop there pAoE on a target to have an effect and to add more effects. That on the order of different that makes them not comparable.

Scourge has barrier an effect that is stronger then shroud because you dont use your "mana" as hp unlike the core necro and reaper. Its also better then distortion as you can cap objectives with it up and make it stronger as well as get added effects for putting barrier on your self and other.

The shatter effects do not give you stab its that your using the shatters that giving you the stab. If the f1-f5 had build in effects for the scorges but not at its feet effects it would be easier to balances but with having a self hit version of f1-f5 on the socrege feet your effect doubling all of your f1-f5 skills. Its not that that scorges is close to mesmers shatters BUT it would be better if scorges effects where more like mesmers shatters. It would be a major nerf to scorges but for it to be a class that not going to get endlessly nerfed over and over it may be needed.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:The design was flawed for PVP/WVW in the first place ... I would have liked to think Anet learned a bit from DH Trapper ... but they took that idea and made it even worse on Scourge ... OK. DH trapper should have been the limit for AOE denial/control and if Anet is smart, that's where Scourge will have to be brought down to as well.

The problem is Scourge, like DH trapper is only OP vs lower tiers.Then please tell me why every single tournament team without exception brings at least one Scourge.

Because boon spam is out of control and Scourge happens to be the best Necro variant? Winds of Disenchantment alone isn't good enough.

Huge difference between "OP" and "necessary."

This ^ Boon generation needs to be culled in this game by a large margin conditions got cut now its time for boons to get cut as well.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Crinn.7864 said:False, boon spam is not out of control. Heck, a lot of tournament teams during late HoT era (summer 2017) actually dropped necros completely since dedicated boonrip was no longer necessary. This isn't 2016 anymore, the boon bunker meta is dead.

Scourge is meta because the entire class straight up does to much damage and debuffing. The whole boonrip thing is just icing on the cake.

I agree with alot of your statements crinn but not this one.

Take a break from playing reaper and play literally any other profession and you will see just how easy it is for them to generate nearly every boon possible on themselves consistently without even having to try very hard. This does not even count boons shared to you or boons you share with allies.The only profession that cant do this is necro and not in any spec its mostly limited to might , protection if you run wells, and swiftness if you use a war horn.Im sorry but right now boons make the professions in a lot of cases and scourge is good at dealing with all that boon pressure.

Reaper lacks the tools to do it properly and while the shroud degen does hurt reaper in pvp to a slight degree reaper lacks the damage still when put up against others with even tankier stats do you know why. Because they run around with every boon possible boosting them closer or above to zerker/mara stats and reaper lacks the removal to deal with it.

If boons generation dies scourge dies. So many people think that scourge does to much damage but fail to realize that a large margin of that damage comes from their own boon spam. But so long as a player can push 1-3 buttons and get nearly every boon in the game you bet you will continue to see scourges on every team. A scourge on every team is not an issue. Its when you start to see 2 and 3 on every team every game that its an issue thats been kind of fixed with the adjustments.

[Aeolus.3615]

@ZDragon.3046 deppends the class, guardian can only do it, if a player has a Firebrand unlocked, shout boons compared with other classes boon capabilities. are weak, look at engie, ranger and elementalist/weaver etc.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ZDragon.3046 deppends the class, guardian can only do it, if a player has a Firebrand unlocked, shout boons compared with other classes boon capabilities. are weak, look at engie, ranger and elementalist/weaver etc.

Core to a degree may be slightly weaker than the rest yes

but are still capable enough of boon spam due to weapons of choice not to mention that all a guardian need to is run retaliation/ meditation to get decent boon spam effectiveness (assuming they want to do damage or even if they dont) To do that only requires core guard traits you dont need firebrand for that but lets be real most people are looking at firebrand right now not core guard or something.

Even without firebrand guardian is solid and always will be solid. Its just strong but not overly so its probably one of the better professions to last the test of time along with warrior and thief.

[Aeolus.3615]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ZDragon.3046 deppends the class, guardian can only do it, if a player has a Firebrand unlocked, shout boons compared with other classes boon capabilities. are weak, look at engie, ranger and elementalist/weaver etc.

Core to a degree may be slightly weaker than the rest yes

but are still capable enough of boon spam due to weapons of choice not to mention that all a guardian need to is run retaliation/ meditation to get decent boon spam effectiveness (assuming they want to do damage or even if they dont) To do that only requires core guard traits you dont need firebrand for that but lets be real most people are looking at firebrand right now not core guard or something.

Even without firebrand guardian is solid and always will be solid. Its just strong but not overly so its probably one of the better professions to last the test of time along with warrior and thief.

I ment gamewide not just tied to one or other game mode idenpendently, in pvp envyroments who dies to 240-300 rataliation?In a way yes, but what u have for options to use and what it works... still almost all classes have a bit of that in a way or other..... >_>

Wich takes me to enforce one thing, nerfes wont solve scourge problem, while it is a design problem...

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ZDragon.3046 deppends the class, guardian can only do it, if a player has a Firebrand unlocked, shout boons compared with other classes boon capabilities. are weak, look at engie, ranger and elementalist/weaver etc.

Core to a degree may be slightly weaker than the rest yes

but are still capable enough of boon spam due to weapons of choice not to mention that all a guardian need to is run retaliation/ meditation to get decent boon spam effectiveness (assuming they want to do damage or even if they dont) To do that only requires core guard traits you dont need firebrand for that but lets be real most people are looking at firebrand right now not core guard or something.

Even without firebrand guardian is solid and always will be solid. Its just strong but not overly so its probably one of the better professions to last the test of time along with warrior and thief.

I ment gamewide not just tied to one or other game mode idenpendently, in pvp envyroments who dies to 240-300 rataliation?In a way yes, but what u have for options to use and what it works... still almost all classes have a bit of that in a way or other..... >_>

Wich takes me to enforce one thing, nerfes wont solve scourge problem, while it is a design problem...

You don't die from the retal, you die from the 50% crit rate that retal gives guards.

[Anchoku.8142]

Scourge and, to a lesser extent, core Necro seem suspiciously good at boon hate; as if Arenanet designed it as a hard counter to boon spamming builds. They did not have to give Scourge any corruptions or rips but they did - in spades.

Unfortunately, most professions aside from Necro cannot help creating boons so the boon love runs smack into boon hate and much of the process is automatic, not tactical.

Arenanet should drastically trim boons, conditions, corruptions, rips, strips, and clears from skills that provide good dps, heals, or mobility. Boon and condi control ought to have more opportunity cost than they do, now.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ZDragon.3046 deppends the class, guardian can only do it, if a player has a Firebrand unlocked, shout boons compared with other classes boon capabilities. are weak, look at engie, ranger and elementalist/weaver etc.

Core to a degree may be slightly weaker than the rest yes

but are still capable enough of boon spam due to weapons of choice not to mention that all a guardian need to is run retaliation/ meditation to get decent boon spam effectiveness (assuming they want to do damage or even if they dont) To do that only requires core guard traits you dont need firebrand for that but lets be real most people are looking at firebrand right now not core guard or something.

Even without firebrand guardian is solid and always will be solid. Its just strong but not overly so its probably one of the better professions to last the test of time along with warrior and thief.

I ment gamewide not just tied to one or other game mode idenpendently, in pvp envyroments who dies to 240-300 rataliation?In a way yes, but what u have for options to use and what it works... still almost all classes have a bit of that in a way or other..... >_>

Wich takes me to enforce one thing, nerfes wont solve scourge problem, while it is a design problem...

Not what i mean by relation builds they have a build that focuses on gaining strength from the boon retaliation as well as multiple traits and skills that generate retaliation. In turn retaliation can lead to free critical strikes, damage, and constant might generation. This is all in 1 line leaving you 2 lines to increase things even more as well as provide other boons.

So no people wont be dying as a direct result of retaliation but it is a boon that can be spammed that does a lot all while providing other boons. Guardian is probably still the weakest case but its still has more boon generation than necro along with every other profession.

What i dont understand is why they cant have enemies in pve drown themselves in boons like this to make necro more relevant in pve currently enemies generate a boon every once in a while. -sigh-

[ZDragon.3046]

@Anchoku.8142 said:Scourge and, to a lesser extent, core Necro seem suspiciously good at boon hate; as if Arenanet designed it as a hard counter to boon spamming builds. They did not have to give Scourge any corruptions or rips but they did - in spades.

Unfortunately, most professions aside from Necro cannot help creating boons so the boon love runs smack into boon hate and much of the process is automatic, not tactical.

Arenanet should drastically trim boons, conditions, corruptions, rips, strips, and clears from skills that provide good dps, heals, or mobility. Boon and condi control ought to have more opportunity cost than they do, now.

I would say start with trimming boons first. Conditions already have been trimmed and are for the most part in an ok place. Condition clears are in a ok place for the most part on most professions too.

Boon corrupts and rips should come last because the tools are unique to mostly necromancer giving it a strong valid mechanic. Nerfing that mechanic at the same time as culling the boon spam wouldnt lead to a proper fix. It would end up in the same situation. Necros ideally should be strong at ripping boons but even with scourge it barely keeps up because of how much boon generation their is.

Ideally you kill the boon spam first leave the corruptions and rips as they are. Then if they are over performing to a degree you tone them down after. But ideally culling boons first, means necros simply use less rips and it also means less odds that you will have boons to be corrupted in the first place.

It would force players to use their skill biased on ideally their chosen base stats rather than going sub tanky and hitting like Zerker due to having a mass of boons. Right now in a lot of cases boons carry many builds and its overall not healthy.

[Aeolus.3615]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ZDragon.3046 deppends the class, guardian can only do it, if a player has a Firebrand unlocked, shout boons compared with other classes boon capabilities. are weak, look at engie, ranger and elementalist/weaver etc.

Core to a degree may be slightly weaker than the rest yes

but are still capable enough of boon spam due to weapons of choice not to mention that all a guardian need to is run retaliation/ meditation to get decent boon spam effectiveness (assuming they want to do damage or even if they dont) To do that only requires core guard traits you dont need firebrand for that but lets be real most people are looking at firebrand right now not core guard or something.

Even without firebrand guardian is solid and always will be solid. Its just strong but not overly so its probably one of the better professions to last the test of time along with warrior and thief.

I ment gamewide not just tied to one or other game mode idenpendently, in pvp envyroments who dies to 240-300 rataliation?In a way yes, but what u have for options to use and what it works... still almost all classes have a bit of that in a way or other..... >_>

Wich takes me to enforce one thing, nerfes wont solve scourge problem, while it is a design problem...

You don't die from the retal, you die from the 50% crit rate that retal gives guards.

Does that means that every core guard is runing radiance?Still guardians on pvp were the least of my issues, imo they are the easiest class do defeat....

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ZDragon.3046 deppends the class, guardian can only do it, if a player has a Firebrand unlocked, shout boons compared with other classes boon capabilities. are weak, look at engie, ranger and elementalist/weaver etc.

Core to a degree may be slightly weaker than the rest yes

but are still capable enough of boon spam due to weapons of choice not to mention that all a guardian need to is run retaliation/ meditation to get decent boon spam effectiveness (assuming they want to do damage or even if they dont) To do that only requires core guard traits you dont need firebrand for that but lets be real most people are looking at firebrand right now not core guard or something.

Even without firebrand guardian is solid and always will be solid. Its just strong but not overly so its probably one of the better professions to last the test of time along with warrior and thief.

I ment gamewide not just tied to one or other game mode idenpendently, in pvp envyroments who dies to 240-300 rataliation?In a way yes, but what u have for options to use and what it works... still almost all classes have a bit of that in a way or other..... >_>

Wich takes me to enforce one thing, nerfes wont solve scourge problem, while it is a design problem...

You don't die from the retal, you die from the 50% crit rate that retal gives guards.

Does that means that every core guard is runing radiance?

If he's running a power DPS build, probably yes, and not just core guards, but also DH, and FB (although FB is stronger as a condi build). It's just too strong to ignore for power DPS builds.

Just the radiance boon alone gives as much crit chance as a full set of berserker gear. Which allows you to use tankier gear without losing as much or any DPS.

[Aeolus.3615]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ZDragon.3046 deppends the class, guardian can only do it, if a player has a Firebrand unlocked, shout boons compared with other classes boon capabilities. are weak, look at engie, ranger and elementalist/weaver etc.

Core to a degree may be slightly weaker than the rest yes

but are still capable enough of boon spam due to weapons of choice not to mention that all a guardian need to is run retaliation/ meditation to get decent boon spam effectiveness (assuming they want to do damage or even if they dont) To do that only requires core guard traits you dont need firebrand for that but lets be real most people are looking at firebrand right now not core guard or something.

Even without firebrand guardian is solid and always will be solid. Its just strong but not overly so its probably one of the better professions to last the test of time along with warrior and thief.

I ment gamewide not just tied to one or other game mode idenpendently, in pvp envyroments who dies to 240-300 rataliation?In a way yes, but what u have for options to use and what it works... still almost all classes have a bit of that in a way or other..... >_>

Wich takes me to enforce one thing, nerfes wont solve scourge problem, while it is a design problem...

You don't die from the retal, you die from the 50% crit rate that retal gives guards.

Does that means that every core guard is runing radiance?

If he's running a power DPS build, probably yes, and not just core guards, but also DH, and FB (although FB is stronger as a condi build). It's just too strong to ignore for power DPS builds.

IMO that translates to other stuff guard core has is lacking :)

Wich feels the way scourge is, nerfed into something that most players will not like and still be strong as kitten, cause it uses a easilly gimmick that is hard to stack and leech.

Reason i would prefer to limit scourge movement while being strong with condi and barrier but less mobile. :\ rather than make stuff weakeruntil the point it becomes way to hard for overall players to play.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ZDragon.3046 deppends the class, guardian can only do it, if a player has a Firebrand unlocked, shout boons compared with other classes boon capabilities. are weak, look at engie, ranger and elementalist/weaver etc.

Core to a degree may be slightly weaker than the rest yes

but are still capable enough of boon spam due to weapons of choice not to mention that all a guardian need to is run retaliation/ meditation to get decent boon spam effectiveness (assuming they want to do damage or even if they dont) To do that only requires core guard traits you dont need firebrand for that but lets be real most people are looking at firebrand right now not core guard or something.

Even without firebrand guardian is solid and always will be solid. Its just strong but not overly so its probably one of the better professions to last the test of time along with warrior and thief.

I ment gamewide not just tied to one or other game mode idenpendently, in pvp envyroments who dies to 240-300 rataliation?In a way yes, but what u have for options to use and what it works... still almost all classes have a bit of that in a way or other..... >_>

Wich takes me to enforce one thing, nerfes wont solve scourge problem, while it is a design problem...

You don't die from the retal, you die from the 50% crit rate that retal gives guards.

Does that means that every core guard is runing radiance?

If he's running a power DPS build, probably yes, and not just core guards, but also DH, and FB (although FB is stronger as a condi build). It's just too strong to ignore for power DPS builds.

IMO that translates to other stuff guard core has is lacking :)

Not sure what you mean. It's a pivotal trait for a specific type of builds, like Illusionary Inspiration for support Mesmer builds, etc. But it doesn't mean you have to take it all the time. Other builds won't use it, of course. If you're looking for tankier/support builds, you'll probably take other traits, if you're going condi, you're probably not as worried about crits, etc. For power DPS builds it's pretty much mandatory, yes.

[ZDragon.3046]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ZDragon.3046 deppends the class, guardian can only do it, if a player has a Firebrand unlocked, shout boons compared with other classes boon capabilities. are weak, look at engie, ranger and elementalist/weaver etc.

Core to a degree may be slightly weaker than the rest yes

but are still capable enough of boon spam due to weapons of choice not to mention that all a guardian need to is run retaliation/ meditation to get decent boon spam effectiveness (assuming they want to do damage or even if they dont) To do that only requires core guard traits you dont need firebrand for that but lets be real most people are looking at firebrand right now not core guard or something.

Even without firebrand guardian is solid and always will be solid. Its just strong but not overly so its probably one of the better professions to last the test of time along with warrior and thief.

I ment gamewide not just tied to one or other game mode idenpendently, in pvp envyroments who dies to 240-300 rataliation?In a way yes, but what u have for options to use and what it works... still almost all classes have a bit of that in a way or other..... >_>

Wich takes me to enforce one thing, nerfes wont solve scourge problem, while it is a design problem...

You don't die from the retal, you die from the 50% crit rate that retal gives guards.

Does that means that every core guard is runing radiance?

If he's running a power DPS build, probably yes, and not just core guards, but also DH, and FB (although FB is stronger as a condi build). It's just too strong to ignore for power DPS builds.

IMO that translates to other stuff guard core has is lacking :)

Not sure what you mean. It's a pivotal trait for a specific type of builds, like Illusionary Inspiration for support Mesmer builds, etc. But it doesn't mean you have to take it all the time. Other builds won't use it, of course. If you're looking for tankier/support builds, you'll probably take other traits, if you're going condi, you're probably not as worried about crits, etc. For

power DPS

builds it's pretty much mandatory, yes.

But guard is still in a good spot to be lacking those tools ideally guard has lot of effective options right now and not all of them require firebrand.

[Jski.6180]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:The design was flawed for PVP/WVW in the first place ... I would have liked to think Anet learned a bit from DH Trapper ... but they took that idea and made it even worse on Scourge ... OK. DH trapper should have been the limit for AOE denial/control and if Anet is smart, that's where Scourge will have to be brought down to as well.

The problem is Scourge, like DH trapper is only OP vs lower tiers.Then please tell me why every single tournament team without exception brings at least one Scourge.

Because boon spam is out of control and Scourge happens to be the best Necro variant? Winds of Disenchantment alone isn't good enough.

Huge difference between "OP" and "necessary."

This ^ Boon generation needs to be culled in this game by a large margin conditions got cut now its time for boons to get cut as well.

Try playing a class with only weak boon generation and no boon contorll and then ask your self is it better to bring things down to that level of game play or to build up the class to that level of game play. Ele is that class.

The game has become a tug of war with boons in wvw and i guess spvp but not all classes are able to play in that tug of war scourge has the ability to be on both sides one more then other but still is able to have some of the best boon control in the game and that means its going to keep getting hit.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

Reason i would prefer to limit scourge movement while being strong with condi and barrier but less mobile. :\ rather than make stuff weakeruntil the point it becomes way to hard for overall players to play.

it already has no mobility you honestly cant limit it anymore than it already is. ITs got nothing to limit. Its got a 900 range portal with a cast time.While your idea of being strong with condition and barrier is a good on paper its only strong with condi based on a foes boons. Its barrier could be a bit better.I think scourge is just a flawed design that had no back up fixes incase it was too strong or too weak.