Can we do something about this lovely "KP" as measurement of skill and kills in raids?

[narcx.3570]

If you join a Dhuum group asking for something like 20+ tokens and then they ask you to start splitting the stacks and pinging different quantities (and aren't trolling), just get out... They're most likely not going to be very good.

[STIHL.2489]

@Henry.5713 said:We have talked about this many times before. The addition of a proper character inspection feature would fix all of these issues. It would include everything from gear to build and even amount of boss kills. Something that would be disabled by default. But people do not like to have things convenient.

This is not a bad idea, a few other games had things like this, where you could look up players on an official supported site, and see their characters, and make a call based on that.

I mean, lets get real, if Anet is going to add raid culture to this game, they should go all in, and put in all the features, like gear score, and the like.

[Henry.5713]

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@Henry.5713 said:We have talked about this many times before. The addition of a proper character inspection feature would fix all of these issues. It would include everything from gear to build and even amount of boss kills. Something that would be disabled by default. But people do not like to have things convenient.

Completely agree with you except the gear inspection. Thats against the rules and programmes exist for that already. It would help if you could just ype /li and example /sabetha to show how many kills you got.

Inspecting gear through the use of 3rd party tools is against the rules. The addition of an in-game feature would be a different story.

LI might not be an indication of skill but you are certainly far more likely to grab a decent player in terms of gear and experience at 50 LI than you are at 5 LI. There are exceptions to that rule but those are rather rare.

[Belorn.2659]

In the past we had the same thing with achivement points. a Player with 4k AP is less likely to be experienced than a player with 15k+ (or in todays numbers, 30k+).

Today we have KP, titles, API keys and DPS meters to do it better and easier for everyone involved. Anet could improve it but we have gained a lot since the beginning.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Henry.5713 said:

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@Henry.5713 said:We have talked about this many times before. The addition of a proper character inspection feature would fix all of these issues. It would include everything from gear to build and even amount of boss kills. Something that would be disabled by default. But people do not like to have things convenient.

Completely agree with you except the gear inspection. Thats against the rules and programmes exist for that already. It would help if you could just ype /li and example /sabetha to show how many kills you got.

Inspecting gear through the use of 3rd party tools is against the rules.

So was using DPS meters and people were using them long before Anet allowed them.

[Henry.5713]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Henry.5713 said:

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@Henry.5713 said:We have talked about this many times before. The addition of a proper character inspection feature would fix all of these issues. It would include everything from gear to build and even amount of boss kills. Something that would be disabled by default. But people do not like to have things convenient.

Completely agree with you except the gear inspection. Thats against the rules and programmes exist for that already. It would help if you could just ype /li and example /sabetha to show how many kills you got.

Inspecting gear through the use of 3rd party tools is against the rules.

So was using DPS meters and people were using them long before Anet allowed them.

Your point being what exactly? That we do not need an actual game feature like that because there are already illegal 3rd party tools out there or the fact that rules hardly ever stop people from going against them? One could even argue that there is a real need to have some of these features if people go so far to risk their accounts for it. BDGM healthbars come to mind...

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Henry.5713 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Henry.5713 said:

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@Henry.5713 said:We have talked about this many times before. The addition of a proper character inspection feature would fix all of these issues. It would include everything from gear to build and even amount of boss kills. Something that would be disabled by default. But people do not like to have things convenient.

Completely agree with you except the gear inspection. Thats against the rules and programmes exist for that already. It would help if you could just ype /li and example /sabetha to show how many kills you got.

Inspecting gear through the use of 3rd party tools is against the rules.

So was using DPS meters and people were using them long before Anet allowed them.

Your point being what exactly? That we do not need an actual game feature like that because there are already illegal 3rd party tools out there or the fact that rules hardly ever stop people from going against them? One could even argue that there is a real need to have some of these features if people go so far to risk their accounts for it. BDGM healthbars come to mind...

I'm all for in game tools and anet should provide them from the beginning, being dps meters, gearcheck or buildtemplates. But since they refuse to provide these tools it's one way of encouraging them by using illegal parties. Worth mentioning, they can't detect you're using dps meter or gearcheck tool unless you send crash report to them.

[Itz Jay.8941]

A quick fix would be to change the drop rate of KP to just one. I feel the pain as someone who has done a full clear on an alt without realising he wasn't repping his guild on said alt (you don't get any kp if you didn't know).

The other option of course is as above to add gear inspection with a tab for boss kills in raids. This of course would take more programming.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Henry.5713 said:We have talked about this many times before. The addition of a proper character inspection feature would fix all of these issues. It would include everything from gear to build and even amount of boss kills. Something that would be disabled by default. But people do not like to have things convenient.

Convenient in the face of ignoring some measurement of privacy. I think pinging KP and such is at least better that way because its player initiated. A bit like how in GW1 you would ping your build before going out into whichever challenge.

I think if an extensive build pinging system exists there mostly should be only stats and skills/traits. To keep it overseeable.

Why not inspect? To keep players actively in the conversation. Passive checking doesnt promote teamwork, it promotes surveillance and thats not a good atmosphere to raid in.

Amount of boss kills... ehh I dunno. Maybe if they killed it before at all or even a distinction between beginner/expert/master for either total bosses killed or each specifically (so far the amount of KP or LI really dont matter when talking about 200 kills or 300 kills imo) .

But while I get that people want experience I believe it might make raids less accessible in general. The amounts required are very arbitrary and dont really show how skilled you are to begin with. Its much more important that players can communicate strategy and show they are interested and open to discus it than it is to set arbitrary boundaries to exclude players.

Not that players will do so anyways, but to keep that in the arbitrary greyzone of pinging items seems better than giving it an official platform.

[Subli.8217]

i just wish we could trade the 100cm kp for bags that give 1 unsellable version and 50 silver. so i could keep my kp and be able to get the 200g i farmed since the release of 100cm (and let us trade red infusion too :< it was my biggest mistake to buy it for my first 90 essences)

[Feanor.2358]

@plushiesoda.8150 said:allowing achievement linking on chat would be the proper mid-ground to avoid such scenario

That's basically exists - title selection. Important achievements have these.

[Henry.5713]

@plushiesoda.8150 said:

@Henry.5713 said:We have talked about this many times before. The addition of a proper character inspection feature would fix all of these issues. It would include everything from gear to build and even amount of boss kills. Something that would be disabled by default. But people do not like to have things convenient.

I'm completely against it, it would give place to (even more) elitism and toxicity as it currently happens with a certain MMORG that has such feature by default, not only in raids, but in all game modes, even open world.

allowing achievement linking on chat would be the proper mid-ground to avoid such scenario

The ability to link achievements wouldn't mean much as long as players are able to link those off the wiki. Since we are going to use the word toxicity, it certainly goes both ways depending on your personal definition. The idea that others should be forced to accept you and that it is acceptable behaviour to selfishly disrespect an entire group of players and their wishes by outright lying to them is a part of this very toxicity.

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Henry.5713 said:We have talked about this many times before. The addition of a proper character inspection feature would fix all of these issues. It would include everything from gear to build and even amount of boss kills. Something that would be disabled by default. But people do not like to have things convenient.

Convenient in the face of ignoring some measurement of privacy. I think pinging KP and such is at least better that way because its player initiated. A bit like how in GW1 you would ping your build before going out into whichever challenge.

I think if an extensive build pinging system exists there mostly should be only stats and skills/traits. To keep it overseeable.

Why not inspect? To keep players actively in the conversation. Passive checking doesnt promote teamwork, it promotes surveillance and thats not a good atmosphere to raid in.

Amount of boss kills... ehh I dunno. Maybe if they killed it before at all or even a distinction between beginner/expert/master for either total bosses killed or each specifically (so far the amount of KP or LI really dont matter when talking about 200 kills or 300 kills imo) .

But while I get that people want experience I believe it might make raids less accessible in general. The amounts required are very arbitrary and dont really show how skilled you are to begin with. Its much more important that players can communicate strategy and show they are interested and open to discus it than it is to set arbitrary boundaries to exclude players.

Not that players will do so anyways, but to keep that in the arbitrary greyzone of pinging items seems better than giving it an official platform.

Inspection features almost always give you the option to turn them off. I highly doubt they wouldn't include that option if we ever see such a feature.There is very little difference between being asked to enable inspection and being asked to ping all of the information manually in terms of privacy. You are still the one who holds the power to refuse. Don't care what people play when they are not in my group nor do I mind asking them in the case would I actually care. They can protect their own privacy if they consider their choice of gear and build in a game a matter of important privacy.However, it is a very different story if they wish to group with me and even more so if they wish to join a group I am supposed to lead.Call it surveillance, I call it transparancy. They wish to be part of my team and I see it as a given to be allowed to know what I am working to be able to make things work.It happens far too often that someone tries to withhold information or does their best to sugar coat anything you might not like to see. Something that is just pulling everyone else down for selfish reasons.

That said, I don't usually expect miracles to happen. Even something basic like functional floating healthbars seems to take years to be implemented. I could settle for a pinging system which would allow us to share all of the relevant information as long as it is not another chat code based mess for obvious reasons.

[Faaris.8013]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:Why not inspect? To keep players actively in the conversation. Passive checking doesnt promote teamwork, it promotes surveillance and thats not a good atmosphere to raid in.

Is it now though? Is pug raiding happening in a positive, friendly, teamwork atmosphere? Do players communicate and engage in conversation? There are pug raids that have a good atmosphere, but they are rare. Surveillance is already happening through dps meters, and these are also used to check boons and healing. And when you join a pug raid squad, I can promise you in 8/10 cases, you are gear checked already. Best thing is to expect to be gear checked in pug raiding.

Adding official gear checking would just make the whole process more transparent.

[Stuccio.8963]

I've actually joined and cleaned the first three wings of the raid faking my LI, gettin the first legendary armor collection and half of the secondo one completed with just 30 or so real LI. Personally, i consider pretty bad the kp "system" because someone can actually be skilled but without guild or time to find one to train bosses with. At the same time, it's the only way to prevent tards to join a raid of serious ppl, possibly not elitists, who can't waste their time with ppl who hasn't read a single word about the strategy for that or that boss.I agree with a sort of tab to show up personal bosses kills and so.

[Subli.8217]

i would love inspect feature to be added to the game, with the option to keep yourself private. that would make people who don't like it happy and people who like it also happy!

[Subli.8217]

If it were up to me and I had to decide between adding it without privacy settings or not adding at all, then I would prefer to have a feature rather than not have it. Everyone would share the feature equally anyway. But, as I said it's better to add privacy settings if possible.

[Xantaria.8726]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Sublimatio.6981" said:i would love inspect feature to be added to the game, with the option to keep yourself private. that would make people who don't like it happy and people who like it also happy!

That would be fair solution. However ArenaNet doesn't respect player privacy as it was proven with DPS meters case.

What else do you consider "private"? Your weapon choice, which sigils you slotted? Anet respects the privacy of players, you'll not find any private data unless there was a hack. Damage and gear, as well as boons and sigils are not private data.

I agree. Those things should be visible (best with an option for those who dont want it to be shown), since its an important thing for groups. Without teamplay, you cant beat a raidboss or a CM, so you as a group and as a commander need to know what you have. Right now, if you are looking for a support chrono, but a dps chrono joins the party, pretending to be a support chrono, you as the commander have no means to tell that until you see that half your squad has no boons, which can lead depending on the boss and the tactic to a wipe. Thats just wasted time for 9 others cause one thought he can do what he wants.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Ore remove kill proofs so all may have a chance to play

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Sublimatio.6981" said:i would love inspect feature to be added to the game, with the option to keep yourself private. that would make people who don't like it happy and people who like it also happy!

That would be fair solution. However ArenaNet doesn't respect player privacy as it was proven with DPS meters case.

What else do you consider "private"? Your weapon choice, which sigils you slotted? Anet respects the privacy of players, you'll not find any private data unless there was a hack. Damage and gear, as well as boons and sigils are not private data.

I agree. Those things should be visible (best with an option for those who dont want it to be shown), since its an important thing for groups. Without teamplay, you cant beat a raidboss or a CM, so you as a group and as a commander need to know what you have. Right now, if you are looking for a support chrono, but a dps chrono joins the party, pretending to be a support chrono, you as the commander have no means to tell that until you see that half your squad has no boons, which can lead depending on the boss and the tactic to a wipe. Thats just wasted time for 9 others cause one thought he can do what he wants.

Except, by desing, you do not own your party. Party is a democracy. We don't have party leader function. That means, what you say may only apply in raids where commander has all the powers. In fractal group, every player has same level of power so without leader you can't really enforce this rule.

Unless Anet, finally, introduces party leader function.

[PearlJam.4607]

Pug groups should be pug groups, without any dps meters or KPs as proofs. It's called pug group. If you want trusted players, make your constant team. Many top raiders are running with CPs. This kind of checking if player is skilled or newbie is just sad in GW2. GW should be equal to everyone. I know many players who would do raids better on their first time than those on their 100th.

[Linken.6345]

@Sublimatio.6981 said:i would love inspect feature to be added to the game, with the option to keep yourself private. that would make people who don't like it happy and people who like it also happy!

No it would not since then commander would just say -put inspect on or kick.How do that make the ones who dont want it happy?

[Subli.8217]

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Sublimatio.6981" said:i would love inspect feature to be added to the game, with the option to keep yourself private. that would make people who don't like it happy and people who like it also happy!

No it would not since then commander would just say -put inspect on or kick.How do that make the ones who dont want it happy?

the commander is entitled to his own lfg requirements - if you join then you agree to be inspected. even now anyone can make lfg and say "link all gear or kick" so how is that any different?

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"FrizzFreston.5290" said:Why not inspect? To keep players actively in the conversation. Passive checking doesnt promote teamwork, it promotes surveillance and thats not a good atmosphere to raid in.

Is it now though? Is pug raiding happening in a positive, friendly, teamwork atmosphere? Do players communicate and engage in conversation? There are pug raids that have a good atmosphere, but they are rare. Surveillance is already happening through dps meters, and these are also used to check boons and healing. And when you join a pug raid squad, I can promise you in 8/10 cases, you are gear checked already. Best thing is to expect to be gear checked in pug raiding.

Adding official gear checking would just make the whole process more transparent.

If anything that is more going for my argument than against lol. Its a bit laissez faire to say: "Ahw its crap anyway why try to improve the situation." Though I suppose thats one way moving forward.

Either way, I figured the option wouldnt or doesnt have to be just be raidlimited. Especially if there will be buildtemplates, I rather prefer sharing builds actively than inspecting passively. Or just pinging whatever I equipped actively. Pinging just gives more control to the one with the gear. You would share when you want to, and with who you want to and in that instance anyone interested wouldnt need to go through as many clicks or find the option in a drop down menu.

It really is just details in the end though.

[Feanor.2358]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Ore remove kill proofs so all may have a chance to play

Nice utopia, but it won't work. When you're used to doing full clear (3 daily t4s + 2 cms) in less than an hour, you won't have the patience for hours of clown fiesta and wiping due to inexperienced players. The reaction will vary depending on your personality, but you'll either kick the inexperienced or leave yourself. In either case all that would change is that everyone will waste some time and everyone will get annoyed for no good reason. You want a chance to play? Then start right now. It's that simple. Start a training party, lfg and dive in.

[Linken.6345]

@Sublimatio.6981 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Sublimatio.6981 said:i would love inspect feature to be added to the game, with the option to keep yourself private. that would make people who don't like it happy and people who like it also happy!

No it would not since then commander would just say -put inspect on or kick.How do that make the ones who dont want it happy?

the commander is entitled to his own lfg requirements - if you join then you agree to be inspected. even now anyone can make lfg and say "link all gear or kick" so how is that any different?

it makes it easier for them so it will be used more.