Almost 6 months into PoF and sword weaver is still broken

[cursE.1794]

Known issues that Arenanet hasn't done anything about:

1) Broken attunement swap mechanic that locks you out of imporant offhand skills2) Unravel is an insolence. We have to fix the broken attunement mechanic ourselves by sacrificing a utility slot. People have been demanding an additional function of this utility but Arenanet ignores them.3) Sword damage is a plain joke compared to the downsides of sword and weaver. Why would staff with a 1200 range out-dps a sword with 130 range on the most vulnerable class in the game? That doesn't make any sense at all. See 5) as well.

Specifically in WvW/PvP:

4) Sword Weaver can't chase down opponents.5) Fighting with a sword feels like waving a toothpick. 130 Range is a joke. Also part of the reason for 4)

[Tabootrinket.2631]

When I decided to change main to ele, I was looking forward to play a super cool elemental fencer.I ended up learning staff rotations...

[Lexi.1398]

not sure how it could be done but i wish that attunement switching was seperate for each hand, so instead of offhand being the last attunement you did, you could for example- switch mainhand to air and then fire while switching offhand to earth and then water, even if it meant changes to weave self and whatever else. to add insult to the clunky way we switch attunements, they still haven't fixed the bug where switching attunements sometimes puts skills on cooldown that shouldn't be.

frankly weaver has been my dream class since i started the game, but with the way attunements work (survivivable if not ideal), i never use sword cus it's pretty much death for ele with no upside vs staff lol.

[apharma.3741]

I think the sword damage issues are mostly in landing and through cast/after cast times which makes it feel slow, I’d rather see those tweaked than numbers firstly, Mesmer had this issue with the staff phantasm before the rework where it could easily hit 10-20k in a zerk build but rarely did so because it barely ever hit leading the skill to be just shatter fodder. I’d rather have weaker skills that reliably hit than stronger ones that are frustrating to hit with.

I don’t agree that the weaver mechanic is broken, it is designed that way so you need for thought and planning on when you will need your offhand skills but you also have the capacity to keep a more defensive offhand skill while having a more offensive main hand skill which is very useful while in core you will be vulnerable for 8.5s-10s once you leave that attunement.

I think at this point ANet need to go back to the drawing board on ele stances, the heal is utter garbage by not only being weaker than other heals but also having a stupid ICD drastically limiting its effectiveness, poor healing power scaling and requiring you and allies to be melee to get any use out of it. Stone resonance is hilarious when you look at everything else that grants barrier, it grants less and has a higher count recharge, whoever balanced it was either not at the meeting for scourge barrier balance or is tripping. Unravel is a terrible idea and whoever came up with it should be told that, there is no point creating an elite spec then making one of its utility skills a way to undo it, what’s even worse about unravel is that it’s duration is so low you can at most get 2 uses out of it, usually just 1 use out of it.

I would personally put the strike cool down on aquatic stance down to 1/2s, remove its ability to heal allies and it heals you for the strike amount at any distance. 6-8 strikes should be reasonable to achieve which would give you a 6-7k heal for going aggressive.Stone resonance count recharge down to 30 or 35sUnravel needs reworking completely.Also no one likes defensive procs nullifying damage without user interaction, in recommend bolstered elements loses the lesser stone resonance and instead grants 3s protection on stance as well as its stab.

[cursE.1794]

@apharma.3741 said:Unravel is a terrible idea and whoever came up with it should be told that, there is no point creating an elite spec then making one of its utility skills a way to undo it, what’s even worse about unravel is that it’s duration is so low you can at most get 2 uses out of it, usually just 1 use out of it.

I think the story behind unravel is that weaver felt incredibly clunky to play even to the devs so they introduced a utility to get around what they perceived as a weakness. They should have sticked to that observation and changed the swap mechanic to begin with. Imho, unravel is proof that the devs know that this swap mechanic sucks.

[Brynioch.1873]

It just needs some QoL improvements and staff finally some damage nerfs. But on small hitboxes it is only 1.5k dps behind staff. PvE wise it is already viable. Just not optimal

[Arheundel.6451]

@Miellyn.6847 said:It just needs some QoL improvements and staff finally some damage nerfs. But on small hitboxes it is only 1.5k dps behind staff. PvE wise it is already viable. Just not optimal

The OP is talking about wvw/pvp no raid which is the only part of the game where is arguably meta must have

[BlackBeard.2873]

Problem 1: Sword is 180 rangeEles are range-locked when they take a weapon, meaning taking sword is very risky. Every other profession can choose to take a second weapon for situations where melee range is just too dangerous, but eles are stuck once they take sword. This means sword needs to do more than it does on other classes. It must (A) give the eles the tools to survive in melee (it does a decent job with the evades and barriers), (B) it must give the eles the tools to stay in melee range and prevent being kited (it does a poor job of this), and (C) it needs to reward the ele for taking this risk (it also does a poor job).

To address 1A (having the tools to survive), the following SHOULD be done:

1. Make conjures like flame-ax and frost bow be able to have 100% uptime (30s duration, 30s CD, or 20s duration, 20s CD, no cast time) so that eles have an alternative when even sword tools aren't enough to stay in-range. This would be most applicable like during boss-fights, where sword is even now usually a death-sentence.

To fix 1B (eles need to tools to stay in-range), the following can be done:

1. Increase sword-range a little bit further than the classic 180 range.
2. Increase the frequency and range of gap-closers (leaps) and super-speed.
3. Make it so that Earth sword 2 doesn't root you.

To fix 1C (reward for the risk):

1. Autoattacks need to do more damage. Weaver sword trait should probably give some access to quickness to allow getting off some quick damage, like sword heralds with shiro can do.
2. Burst skills need to be quicker. Compare quantum strike (air/air 3) to Precision strike (herald sword 2) to get an idea of reward that herald gets when in melee.

Problem 2: Sword is balanced around stupid, stationary targetsBeyond just being kited, too much of sword damage is balanced around dumb targets that stand in tiny aoes. The biggest culprits are Fire 2 and air/fire 3, which make up a large portion of dps. Mechanics like that on air/fire 3 are terrible outside of "golem balance" situations, when things, esp people, simply always move.

To fix this:

1. Fire 2 should have its radius increased slightly
2. Air/fire 3 should instead put the pulsing-damage effect on the struck targets.

Problem 3: Swapping can be really clunky for defensive weapon-skillsThis is the situation of why many are frustrated with unravel. It is a poor bandaid for a serious problem. This also goes counter-intuitive to most playstyles that aren't bruiser builds that rely mostly on rotations and frequent healing/prot/etc.

To fix this:

1. Unravel needs a 10s count cooldown, and to last for only 2-3 s, so that you can use it to frequently choose full/partial attuning. This isn't a very strong skill, so there is no reason a 25s CD is warranted. Adjust Bolstered elements if needed, but even then it seems like a reasonable reward to get more frequent stability to have an otherwise pretty useless skill.
2. Give weaver an F5 that allows you to swap between forward attuning (swap mainhand skills) and reverse attuning (swap off-hand skills). Put it on a 10 or 20s CD so that people can't just abuse elements of rage. Better yet, just put a 5s CD on elements of rage so that you can't just swap main-hand or off-hand skills and keep it up.

[Jski.6180]

Well from what i understand weaver use to be a main hand mace user not a sword user but sword was forced on it because ppl wanted it and wanted it now. Its a fake sword class atm.

[MyPuppy.8970]

I can live just fine without unravel, I'd rather have something useful. A stance that gives quickness or stab, without having to trait for it for instance. Even a reflect or a gap closer would be 100 times better.

[apharma.3741]

@cursE.1794 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Unravel is a terrible idea and whoever came up with it should be told that, there is no point creating an elite spec then making one of its utility skills a way to undo it, what’s even worse about unravel is that it’s duration is so low you can at most get 2 uses out of it, usually just 1 use out of it.

I think the story behind unravel is that weaver felt incredibly clunky to play even to the devs so they introduced a utility to get around what they perceived as a weakness. They should have sticked to that observation and changed the swap mechanic to begin with. Imho, unravel is proof that the devs know that this swap mechanic sucks.

I don’t agree, after playing weaver for a few weeks the dual attunement mechanic became much easier to deal with where it mattered and sword was designed in such a way that it’s evades are on the #2 skills so it flows really well in that regard. Sure with other weapon sets it is more noticeable but when playing the set within the role it’s not a major issue and you’re rewarded for it with the dual skills a lot of the time.

Lacking a 4th stance though, yeah that’s really gimping choice tbh as well as the amazing trait for stance. Yay let’s add yet another passive proc to ele and give a single stack of stab because that will make all the difference when the stances are largely poo.

[Xillllix.3485]

Weaver is a bad concept that should have been rethinked before developing it. Now all they can do is try to make it work by buffing some numbers, but it will never be fun to play.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Edit: yeah I think they should replace unravel. I get the point of it, but its really just training wheels that become a wasted skill for those who don't need it.

[Jski.6180]

@ScottBroChill.3254 said:Edit: yeah I think they should replace unravel. I get the point of it, but its really just training wheels that become a wasted skill for those who don't need it.

If they make unravel a quickness effect or say an unblockable effect i think weaver class would be a good dmg dealer but as things stand its only time till we see all power dmg normalizes and what you can see from ele come out to being nothing better then other power class but with the lack of strong offensive boons and or unblockable dmg effects.

[mbhalo.1547]

@Lexi.1398 said:not sure how it could be done but i wish that attunement switching was seperate for each hand, so instead of offhand being the last attunement you did

Thousand times yes. That what i had in mind when we first heard about the weaver.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:It just needs some QoL improvements and staff finally some damage nerfs. But on small hitboxes it is only 1.5k dps behind staff. PvE wise it is already viable. Just not optimal

The OP is talking about wvw/pvp no raid which is the only part of the game where is arguably meta must have

Sword is also fine in sPvP, just not in WvW. But it doesn't need to be good in all game modes. WvW is completely different with huge open space compared to sPvP.

[Feanor.2358]

@cursE.1794 said:Known issues that Arenanet hasn't done anything about:

1) Broken attunement swap mechanic that locks you out of imporant offhand skills2) Unravel is an insolence. We have to fix the broken attunement mechanic ourselves by sacrificing a utility slot. People have been demanding an additional function of this utility but Arenanet ignores them.3) Sword damage is a plain joke compared to the downsides of sword and weaver. Why would staff with a 1200 range out-dps a sword with 130 range on the most vulnerable class in the game? That doesn't make any sense at all. See 5) as well.

Specifically in WvW/PvP:

4) Sword Weaver can't chase down opponents.5) Fighting with a sword feels like waving a toothpick. 130 Range is a joke. Also part of the reason for 4)

1. It's the mechanic of the specialization. You don't like it? Then play tempest or core ele. Simple.
2. I agree Unravel is lackluster and I don't use it. Again, simple.
3. Sword has better mobility, more evades and better sustain. Sword doesn't root you in place and doesn't rely on ground-targeted smallish aoes for its damage. Of course staff needs to have higher damage.

On the pvp side I don't know. Staff Weaver is good in large-scale wvw, but extremely vulnerable in roaming/pvp scenarios. Sword should be better there, but I don't really know its capabilities as I don't really do either (roaming/pvp).

[Jski.6180]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@cursE.1794 said:Known issues that Arenanet hasn't done anything about:

1) Broken attunement swap mechanic that locks you out of imporant offhand skills2) Unravel is an insolence. We have to fix the broken attunement mechanic ourselves by sacrificing a utility slot. People have been demanding an additional function of this utility but Arenanet ignores them.3) Sword damage is a plain joke compared to the downsides of sword and weaver. Why would staff with a 1200 range out-dps a sword with 130 range on the most vulnerable class in the game? That doesn't make any sense at all. See 5) as well.

Specifically in WvW/PvP:

4) Sword Weaver can't chase down opponents.5) Fighting with a sword feels like waving a toothpick. 130 Range is a joke. Also part of the reason for 4)

1. It's the mechanic of the specialization. You don't like it? Then play tempest or core ele. Simple.
2. I agree Unravel is lackluster and I don't use it. Again, simple.
3. Sword has better mobility, more evades and better sustain. Sword doesn't root you in place and doesn't rely on ground-targeted smallish aoes for its damage. Of course staff needs to have higher damage.

On the pvp side I don't know. Staff Weaver is good in large-scale wvw, but extremely vulnerable in roaming/pvp scenarios. Sword should be better there, but I don't really know its capabilities as I don't really do either (roaming/pvp).

Look your making a lot of excuses for a class that is under-power and going to become more under-power in all game types. Staff weaver is no good in wvw any more because of the current support meta you simply have no time to land your dmg any more and every thing a weaver dose or can add to this is hard counter by the high projectile hate.

Weaver has a lot of on paper dmg but most of the real life dmg from weaver is stopped by every thing in the game and the only real dmg weaver has is coming from the core ele it self NOT the weaver.

[Feanor.2358]

@Jski.6180 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"cursE.1794" said:Known issues that Arenanet hasn't done anything about:

1) Broken attunement swap mechanic that locks you out of imporant offhand skills2) Unravel is an insolence. We have to fix the broken attunement mechanic ourselves by sacrificing a utility slot. People have been demanding an additional function of this utility but Arenanet ignores them.3) Sword damage is a plain joke compared to the downsides of sword and weaver. Why would staff with a 1200 range out-dps a sword with 130 range on the most vulnerable class in the game? That doesn't make any sense at all. See 5) as well.

Specifically in WvW/PvP:

4) Sword Weaver can't chase down opponents.5) Fighting with a sword feels like waving a toothpick. 130 Range is a joke. Also part of the reason for 4)

1. It's the mechanic of the specialization. You don't like it? Then play tempest or core ele. Simple.
2. I agree Unravel is lackluster and I don't use it. Again, simple.
3. Sword has better mobility, more evades and better sustain. Sword doesn't root you in place and doesn't rely on ground-targeted smallish aoes for its damage. Of course staff needs to have higher damage.

On the pvp side I don't know. Staff Weaver is good in large-scale wvw, but extremely vulnerable in roaming/pvp scenarios. Sword should be better there, but I don't really know its capabilities as I don't really do either (roaming/pvp).

Look your making a lot of excuses for a class that is under-power and going to become more under-power in all game types. Staff weaver is no good in wvw any more because of the current support meta you simply have no time to land your dmg any more and every thing a weaver dose or can add to this is hard counter by the high projectile hate.

Yeah, no. If you can't play it, that's another thing. If you can't understand why it's good, that's a third. But to say it's "no good" is just false.

@Jski.6180 said:Weaver has a lot of on paper dmg but most of the real life dmg from weaver is stopped by every thing in the game and the only real dmg weaver has is coming from the core ele it self NOT the weaver.

Weaver build will always outdps core build. So your claim here seems to be... pointless?

[KrHome.1920]

@cursE.1794 said:Why would staff with a 1200 range out-dps a sword with 130 range on the most vulnerable class in the game? That doesn't make any sense at all.Because range isn't everything. Ele Staff is the most clunky and easy to avoid weapon in the game. It's okay that it deals a lot of damage in PvP/WvW.

In PvE it doesn't matter as PvE mobs don't dodge.

Specifically in WvW/PvP:Sword Weaver can't chase down opponents.Celestial (or other custom mixed stats) Sword Weaver is broken/overpowered in smallscale WvW. It's unkillable 1v1 and super annoying 2v2 or 3v3 because at least 2 players need to focus it for several seconds because of its evade spam. If you stop attacking, it will heal up in the blink of an eye and can immediatly switch back to pressure you (practically a fight reset at melee range - every thief would be jealous).

Its only downside is that (like you said) it has poor chasing mobility/pressure so even a Reaper can run away from it and that's good regarding how broken it is.

[Arheundel.6451]

@cursE.1794 said:Known issues that Arenanet hasn't done anything about:

1) Broken attunement swap mechanic that locks you out of imporant offhand skills2) Unravel is an insolence. We have to fix the broken attunement mechanic ourselves by sacrificing a utility slot. People have been demanding an additional function of this utility but Arenanet ignores them.3) Sword damage is a plain joke compared to the downsides of sword and weaver. Why would staff with a 1200 range out-dps a sword with 130 range on the most vulnerable class in the game? That doesn't make any sense at all. See 5) as well.

Specifically in WvW/PvP:

4) Sword Weaver can't chase down opponents.5) Fighting with a sword feels like waving a toothpick. 130 Range is a joke. Also part of the reason for 4)

1) Rather it's a matter of prediction and saving that last one dodge to save time before accessing skill 4-5, it depends what on what you always used on ele, if d/d or staff, if each case you will find easier to memorize each skill location/usage if you were used to the playstyle beforehand , that's why I don't use staff weaver but core/tempest2) Even the devs know that unravel suck...no surprises here3) Let's put it this way : direct dmg oriented dagger MH does more dmg but condi dmg hands down sword does way more dmg , dagger MH is direct 8 and condi dmg 5 where sword is direct 6 and condi dmg 9, when using sword weaver you should focus more on condi dmg stat for optimal results4) Yeah...you definitely can't, maybe it's better that way for balance purpose seen as sword is the most defensive weapon on ele atm5) I think the extra evasion skills and barrier are worth the 130 range price

You need to get in the mindset that roaming is worthless and mostly populated by cheese builds with a plethora of escape/disengage tools, simply specs unfun to fight but...you can build weaver in a way that will frustrate them to no end or straight down kill them if they persist instead than stealth/run as per usual.

I am more confident about ele now seeing the targeted nerfs other apex predators will get in PvP and in wvw I can already create an even playing field thx to the greater quantity of stats combinations. The nerfs to holo and spellbreaker will make ele that much more popular in pvp as a side point fighter.

Historically I have been rather unhappy with ele for the last 3 years but the situation is looking quite good now, apex predators are getting the chop - passive gameplay is on the radar and nerfs are starting to drop , threre is loads to be happy about :

-nerfs to pulmonary impact, larcenous strike dmg, holosmith dmg,, access to stability and might-nerfs to spellbreaker raw dmg confining it to boon rip bot instead than powerhouse-nerfs to druid sustain-more nerfs to scourge

• no buffs to thieves or mesmers, just nerfs

Ele will be more than ok for a while soon..before eventually the nerfs will start dropping here again because soon or later the nerfs to weaver will come, dunno when..dunno how but they will come and sword will most likely be the target of these nerfs

[XxzaverxX.6790]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@cursE.1794 said:Why would staff with a 1200 range out-dps a sword with 130 range on the most vulnerable class in the game? That doesn't make any sense at all.Because range isn't everything. Ele Staff is the most clunky and easy to avoid weapon in the game. It's okay that it deals a lot of damage in PvP/WvW.

In PvE it doesn't matter as PvE mobs don't dodge.

Specifically in WvW/PvP:Sword Weaver can't chase down opponents.Celestial (or other custom mixed stats) Sword Weaver is broken/overpowered in smallscale WvW. It's unkillable 1v1 and super annoying 2v2 or 3v3 because at least 2 players need to focus it for several seconds because of its evade spam. If you stop attacking, it will heal up in the blink of an eye and can immediatly switch back to pressure you (practically a fight reset at melee range - every thief would be jealous).

Its only downside is that (like you said) it has poor chasing mobility/pressure so even a Reaper can run away from it and that's good regarding how broken it is.

Weaver sword is no where near broken lol but okay I guess

[cursE.1794]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@cursE.1794 said:Known issues that Arenanet hasn't done anything about:

1) Broken attunement swap mechanic that locks you out of imporant offhand skills2) Unravel is an insolence. We have to fix the broken attunement mechanic ourselves by sacrificing a utility slot. People have been demanding an additional function of this utility but Arenanet ignores them.3) Sword damage is a plain joke compared to the downsides of sword and weaver. Why would staff with a 1200 range out-dps a sword with 130 range on the most vulnerable class in the game? That doesn't make any sense at all. See 5) as well.

Specifically in WvW/PvP:

4) Sword Weaver can't chase down opponents.5) Fighting with a sword feels like waving a toothpick. 130 Range is a joke. Also part of the reason for 4)

1. It's the mechanic of the specialization. You don't like it? Then play tempest or core ele. Simple.
2. I agree Unravel is lackluster and I don't use it. Again, simple.
3. Sword has better mobility, more evades and better sustain. Sword doesn't root you in place and doesn't rely on ground-targeted smallish aoes for its damage. Of course staff needs to have higher damage.

On the pvp side I don't know. Staff Weaver is good in large-scale wvw, but extremely vulnerable in roaming/pvp scenarios. Sword should be better there, but I don't really know its capabilities as I don't really do either (roaming/pvp).

So you can't criticize something in its current state because since its the current state it is reality and should therefore not be criticized. This is circular reasoning. Following that, your, logic, people should never criticize anything because if they don't like it they should switch without complaining. No sir, this is not how to participate constructively in an argument.

[Feanor.2358]

Feel free to criticize. I just find the argumentation lacking.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@cursE.1794 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@cursE.1794 said:Known issues that Arenanet hasn't done anything about:

1) Broken attunement swap mechanic that locks you out of imporant offhand skills2) Unravel is an insolence. We have to fix the broken attunement mechanic ourselves by sacrificing a utility slot. People have been demanding an additional function of this utility but Arenanet ignores them.3) Sword damage is a plain joke compared to the downsides of sword and weaver. Why would staff with a 1200 range out-dps a sword with 130 range on the most vulnerable class in the game? That doesn't make any sense at all. See 5) as well.

Specifically in WvW/PvP:

4) Sword Weaver can't chase down opponents.5) Fighting with a sword feels like waving a toothpick. 130 Range is a joke. Also part of the reason for 4)

1. It's the mechanic of the specialization. You don't like it? Then play tempest or core ele. Simple.
2. I agree Unravel is lackluster and I don't use it. Again, simple.
3. Sword has better mobility, more evades and better sustain. Sword doesn't root you in place and doesn't rely on ground-targeted smallish aoes for its damage. Of course staff needs to have higher damage.

On the pvp side I don't know. Staff Weaver is good in large-scale wvw, but extremely vulnerable in roaming/pvp scenarios. Sword should be better there, but I don't really know its capabilities as I don't really do either (roaming/pvp).

So you can't criticize something in its current state because since its the current state it is reality and should therefore not be criticized. This is circular reasoning. Following that, your, logic, people should never criticize anything because if they don't like it they should switch without complaining. No sir, this is not how to participate constructively in an argument.

the acid test is simple, when would you ever fear facing up against an equally skilled player using staff the answer is never, the build is only good for nuking aoe from a distance and hoping they don't get targeted - that's not pvp, thats trying to apply PVE strategies against real people.