The forgotten Content[Dungeons]

[Lily.1935]

What was supposed to be the introduction into End game content in GW2 as well as supposed to be part of that end game content that does a poor job at teaching new players how to play as well as being wildly unbalanced? Dungeons!

When trying to convince a new player to stay in the game who enjoys PvE one of the first things they ask about is Dungeons. The question usually goes like this "Which dungeons provide the best loot/have the best rewards?" Or "I want to run dungeons, why is it so difficult to get a group for it?" And it shows me right off the bat as a veteran player that there is a certain expectation from them that isn't being met by the Balance team for PvE. New players expect that dungeons are supposed to be the content they do while leveling and expect that they are an option for the End game. Yet in both cases dungeons fail their expectation. And when they talk to veteran players the response from the community is almost always filled with bitterness.

First impressions are extremely important. But dungeons give an extremely bad first impression of the game. Part of this has to do with how the community complains about the forgotten content but the other part of it is that their complaints are justified. Arena net gives off this impression to new players that they don't care about the old content and it instantly puts the thought in their head "Well if I enjoy something It will be ignored and forgotten in the future." This isn't something any business in gaming should want. Forgotten old content is why many players leave MMOs in favor of new ones. WoW for example had did this for years, obsoleting their old content in favor of new content and this eventually cut their numbers. I'm not saying this is the only reason but to say it wasn't a factor is foolish. Many WoW veterans have told me that they quit because of this reason and that game is seeing new energy with their next expansion from what I've heard. But that's because they are reinvigorating old content with new things.

Dungeons are clunky in their current form. Their difficulty scaling is usually based on cheap tricks and players have been insensitivity into bad habits which lead to one of the worst PvE balancing experiences in the game and those tactics still exist in dungeons. Dungeons are a relic of a bygone era of GW2 that doesn't fit the current balance of the game. Because of this the dungeons being used as a teaching tool for players to get into Raids or Fractals just isn't an option because of what's optimal in Dungeons compared to the other content is quite different. Healers are not required in dungeons, Condition damage is often punished, stacking in the corner is rewarded and strange mechanics are used in the dungeons that have no equivalent outside of that specific fight. As a teaching tool, dungeons give players skills they don't need and fail to teach skills they do need. But this is the content that was supposed to be the preparation for Fractals. Yet it fails at this.

Additionally, Arena net have stated that Fractals do everything that dungeons are supposed to do or capable of doing. Yet no one but the hardest core of fanbois really believes this. Its clearly a cost cutting measure and that's it. And part of the community has just accepted that and wont even ask for scraps from the devs when we should be demanding the world. Fractals fail as a replacement for Dungeons because the experience you get, even if its only a physiological one is extremely different. Fractals are like mini dungeons. Bit sized bits of content that almost acts as a sampler platter. This isn't what I'd call a replacement. 4 sides can't replace a steak. Dungeons uniqueness would allow them to actively teach players how to do the harder content without as much of a risk. A boss that acts as a quicker fight that fights kinda like Gorseval but doesn't have the ability to instantly kill the party if you fail to interrupt him could be great at the end of a dungeon. Having mechanics that seem similar, like the green Circles in Vale but as a mini game in a dungeon about color matching could be a good way to get players used to these mechanics without having to be punished. Fractals can't teach this because of its Roll in the game, but dungeons absolutely could because the roll they were supposed to have isn't being used.

Suggestions:With some of this in mind lets getting some suggestions going for dungeons. I'll post some of mine to really add new spice to the dungeons that could make them a unique experience for players looking to have some fun.

1. Party Bonus: This idea for the dungeons is to help incentivise players to work together. Having a point system that shows up at the end of the dungeon that offers bonus rewards for the party for members using things like combo fields, healing allies, reviving downed allies, destroying break bards and so on could be a great way to help teach players to work together and teach them about these things.
2. Time Trial: There are quite a few speedrunners in the community and having a timed trial leader board would be great for them. Giving them extra rewards or titles for completing each path in a specific time limit or gaining a daily record holder title or maybe a monthly one would be something that many players would absolutely love.
3. Dungeon Events: Having Events that pop up In a dungeon run and perhaps even having them be random so they don't always pop up in the same run that add to your overall bonus rewards at the end of it could give players a reason to not just run past everything to get to the end as quickly as possible. These events would incentivize players to stick in the dungeons longer and get bonus rewards for doing so. But could be skipped without punishing the player for doing so.
4. Bonus Objective: A daily bonus objective that you could do once a day in any dungeon path could be a good thing to add as well. Something extra you need to do much like the bonus objectives back in GW1 for the missions which could have its own unique title or reward track associated with it.
5. Hard Mode: One of the biggest suggestions that Everyone I talk to who misses doing dungeons have said is the desire for a hard mode. Scaling all dungeons in hard mode up to level 80 and making it more challenging with more rewards and new rewards. This is highly desirable and gives even more replay value to the dungeon enthusiasts.
6. New Rewards/New Skins: Going along with the Hard mode, having the Hard mode rewards be different from the Normal mode counterpart could be a major boon. New weapon and armor skins that are ascended could give players a great way to play this content over and over again. And considering that the armor would be dungeon armor the devs could do something really simple with it. Making them elite versions of Existing Dungeon armor. Using the same models as the previous armor sets but changing the skin much like they did with prestigious armor back in GW1. This would save arena net a lot of time in designing new armors while also making the fashion community of GW2 extremely happy.

I know I'm not alone in wanting dungeons to return in a big way in GW2. In fact there are plenty of benefits of improving this content long term for the game. Short term is sounds like a pretty big work load and cost, but long term this really gives new players an extremely Good impression of the game right off the bat and helps keep GW2 far safer from losing players who could otherwise move on to a new game that does what GW2 does, but actually does keep their content relevant for longer. I feel that perhaps all my suggestions don't need to be put in place, but I do know that dungeons should be updated for the health of the game. And we as players who love the game should absolutely DEMAND it! If we keep making the "Time and money" Excuse for arena net they will never give us what we want because we wont demand it from them. If you think being insistent doesn't work, well there are other games that prove that it absolutely does. Just look at Nintendo and their game Super Smash bros. The SSB community has been screaming for years for Sonic, Megaman, Cloud and many others to get in the game, something that probably SHOULD have been impossible for nintendo, but they kept on demanding it and demanding it. And you know what they got? Almost everything they wanted from the roster! It should show you just how much of an impact that we as fans can have on a game. Arena Net is a company, yes. But they are also beholden to US! They need to give us what we want because there are hundreds of other options we can take. So they have a lot of pressure to listen to us as long as we demand it from them. So no more excuses, Arena net! Update the dungeons!

[derd.6413]

i never saw the appeal in beating a dead horse

[Lily.1935]

@"derd.6413" said:i never saw the appeal in beating a dead horse

Wrong Analogy. The Raids thing was also considered a Dead horse as was expansions since Arena net had said they weren't going to do that stuff when they released the game, preferring more intimate content with Dungeons and fractals as well as saying they'd rather do living world. So In both these cases those were "Dead horses" as you put it, but its not the case. We have to keep pushing it.

A better Analogy would be "The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

PS: Stop being defeatist. You're not helping anyone.

[Blocki.4931]

They don't have a content team working on dungeons any longer, it's pointless. Fractals are the new and better dungeons

[Lily.1935]

@Blocki.4931 said:They don't have a content team working on dungeons any longer, it's pointless. Fractals are the new and better dungeons

Stop being defeatist. You're not helping anyone.

[derd.6413]

@Lily.1935 said:

@"derd.6413" said:i never saw the appeal in beating a dead horse

Wrong Analogy. The Raids thing was also considered a Dead horse as was expansions since Arena net had said they weren't going to do that stuff when they released the game, preferring more intimate content with Dungeons and fractals as well as saying they'd rather do living world. So In both these cases those were "Dead horses" as you put it, but its not the case. We have to keep pushing it.

A better Analogy would be "The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

PS: Stop being defeatist. You're not helping anyone.

there's a difference between a new feature to fill a niche and a feature that was shot behind the shed and replaced with a feature that anet thinks better in every way.

[Lily.1935]

@derd.6413 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@derd.6413 said:i never saw the appeal in beating a dead horse

Wrong Analogy. The Raids thing was also considered a Dead horse as was expansions since Arena net had said they weren't going to do that stuff when they released the game, preferring more intimate content with Dungeons and fractals as well as saying they'd rather do living world. So In both these cases those were "Dead horses" as you put it, but its not the case. We have to keep pushing it.

A better Analogy would be "The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

PS: Stop being defeatist. You're not helping anyone.

there's a difference between a new feature to fill a niche and a feature that was shot behind the shed and replaced with a feature that anet thinks better in every way.

They don't think its better. That's corporate speak. Which I mentioned above that you'd have to be foolish to believe them. Arena net is lying to us about it. This is evident. Dungeons were meant to teach new players about future mechanics in things like Fractals. Fractals can't replace dungeons as they've said previously because once you get to level 80 you should be aware of the mechanics you'll need to know in the Fractals already. But in order to get into fractals you pretty much need a Veteran player to teach you. 5 new people wont have the appropriate skills to be able to easily figure it out. Dungeons were supposed to be the teaching tool. Fractals are not and can't be that replacement. This is self evident. Arena net is lying about it, and shamefully so.

[derd.6413]

@Lily.1935 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@derd.6413 said:i never saw the appeal in beating a dead horse

Wrong Analogy. The Raids thing was also considered a Dead horse as was expansions since Arena net had said they weren't going to do that stuff when they released the game, preferring more intimate content with Dungeons and fractals as well as saying they'd rather do living world. So In both these cases those were "Dead horses" as you put it, but its not the case. We have to keep pushing it.

A better Analogy would be "The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

PS: Stop being defeatist. You're not helping anyone.

there's a difference between a new feature to fill a niche and a feature that was shot behind the shed and replaced with a feature that anet thinks better in every way.

They don't think its better. That's corporate speak. Which I mentioned above that you'd have to be foolish to believe them. Arena net is lying to us about it. This is evident. Dungeons were meant to teach new players about future mechanics in things like Fractals. Fractals can't replace dungeons as they've said previously because once you get to level 80 you should be aware of the mechanics you'll need to know in the Fractals already. But in order to get into fractals you pretty much need a Veteran player to teach you. 5 new people wont have the appropriate skills to be able to easily figure it out. Dungeons were supposed to be the teaching tool. Fractals are not and can't be that replacement. This is self evident. Arena net is lying about it, and shamefully so.

calling somebody lair is indeed easier then accepting reality

[Lily.1935]

@derd.6413 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@derd.6413 said:i never saw the appeal in beating a dead horse

Wrong Analogy. The Raids thing was also considered a Dead horse as was expansions since Arena net had said they weren't going to do that stuff when they released the game, preferring more intimate content with Dungeons and fractals as well as saying they'd rather do living world. So In both these cases those were "Dead horses" as you put it, but its not the case. We have to keep pushing it.

A better Analogy would be "The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

PS: Stop being defeatist. You're not helping anyone.

there's a difference between a new feature to fill a niche and a feature that was shot behind the shed and replaced with a feature that anet thinks better in every way.

They don't think its better. That's corporate speak. Which I mentioned above that you'd have to be foolish to believe them. Arena net is lying to us about it. This is evident. Dungeons were meant to teach new players about future mechanics in things like Fractals. Fractals can't replace dungeons as they've said previously because once you get to level 80 you should be aware of the mechanics you'll need to know in the Fractals already. But in order to get into fractals you pretty much need a Veteran player to teach you. 5 new people wont have the appropriate skills to be able to easily figure it out. Dungeons were supposed to be the teaching tool. Fractals are not and can't be that replacement. This is self evident. Arena net is lying about it, and shamefully so.

calling somebody lair is indeed easier then accepting reality

I'm not saying you're a liar. Arena Net absolutely is lying though. You can call it a half truth if you like, but my parents taught me that a half truth is still a lie.

[Lily.1935]

@derd.6413 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@derd.6413 said:i never saw the appeal in beating a dead horse

Wrong Analogy. The Raids thing was also considered a Dead horse as was expansions since Arena net had said they weren't going to do that stuff when they released the game, preferring more intimate content with Dungeons and fractals as well as saying they'd rather do living world. So In both these cases those were "Dead horses" as you put it, but its not the case. We have to keep pushing it.

A better Analogy would be "The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

PS: Stop being defeatist. You're not helping anyone.

there's a difference between a new feature to fill a niche and a feature that was shot behind the shed and replaced with a feature that anet thinks better in every way.

Fractals are not better in every way. No one believes that. Not even the devs. It would be impossible because they aren't that blind. I can't believe them to be that foolish to believe that. They're smart people. Fractals are better for development costs. That's it, it isn't better for the players, it isn't better for the long term health of the game, it isn't better to pull in new players, it isn't better to teach people the mechanics of raids or fractals, it isn't better on unique rewards. The Only thing its better at is being a sampler platter for something more. It makes the people who don't like raids but did like dungeons and fractals thirsty for something more that they currently can't get in GW2.

[Linken.6345]

T1 fractals can be done by 5 new people the mechanics dont 1 shot them at that level, do 5 people want to learn the ropes them selfs?Thats another question entierly.Fractals can obviously have any fight in them a dungeon can, so saying only dungeons can teach mechanics like vg greens and gorse breakbar smash is hillarious.

About the random events asclaon catacomb actualy have a random event a legendary troll that can pop out around the kholer room, know what the people do with that one? usualy run away since he is to much of a bother. ( was kicked from afew groups for soloing him. )

[Tyson.5160]

I made a similar post on another thread. I thought that introducing a boss mode to the dungeons, where each dungeon could have a single boss semi-difficult encounter to each dungeon and borrow mechanics from some of the current raid bosses. You could have a graveling patriarch for ascalon catacombs that had similar mechanics to Gorseval. A golem boss in Sorrow’s Furnace that mimics Slothosar poison area mechanics, and change a player into a tiny golem to eat the poison. That kind of stuff to better bridge the gap to Raids, without adding an easy mode and gives players a taste of the raid realm.

[Linken.6345]

@Tyson.5160 said:I made a similar post on another thread. I thought that introducing a boss mode to the dungeons, where each dungeon could have a single boss semi-difficult encounter to each dungeon and borrow mechanics from some of the current raid bosses. You could have a graveling patriarch for ascalon catacombs that had similar mechanics to Gorseval. A golem boss in Sorrow’s Furnace that mimics Slothosar poison area mechanics, and change a player into a tiny golem to eat the poison. That kind of stuff to better bridge the gap to Raids, without adding an easy mode and gives players a taste of the raid realm.

What stops them from doing something similar in a new fractal tho to be honest?

[Tyson.5160]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I made a similar post on another thread. I thought that introducing a boss mode to the dungeons, where each dungeon could have a single boss semi-difficult encounter to each dungeon and borrow mechanics from some of the current raid bosses. You could have a graveling patriarch for ascalon catacombs that had similar mechanics to Gorseval. A golem boss in Sorrow’s Furnace that mimics Slothosar poison area mechanics, and change a player into a tiny golem to eat the poison. That kind of stuff to better bridge the gap to Raids, without adding an easy mode and gives players a taste of the raid realm.

What stops them from doing something similar in a new fractal tho to be honest?

Nothing I guess, but they can reuse models and the environments as well as the mechanics from the raid bosses, so it’s not developing a brand new fractal.

[Lily.1935]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I made a similar post on another thread. I thought that introducing a boss mode to the dungeons, where each dungeon could have a single boss semi-difficult encounter to each dungeon and borrow mechanics from some of the current raid bosses. You could have a graveling patriarch for ascalon catacombs that had similar mechanics to Gorseval. A golem boss in Sorrow’s Furnace that mimics Slothosar poison area mechanics, and change a player into a tiny golem to eat the poison. That kind of stuff to better bridge the gap to Raids, without adding an easy mode and gives players a taste of the raid realm.

What stops them from doing something similar in a new fractal tho to be honest?

Nothing I guess, but they can reuse models and the environments as well as the mechanics from the raid bosses, so it’s not developing a brand new fractal.

That would require a whole new ground work for fractals with a new means of obtaining rewards, so the work load would be the same for them in this instance. And it wouldn't provide the appropriate option since now the fractals would need to be designed with teaching in mind, which they are clearly not designed for that. My suggestions have a few parts to them. it isn't just teaching the mechanics but rewarding players for executing those mechanics which wouldn't fit the current design of Fractals. This would take a redesign of fractals which it doesn't need. But Dungeons do need it and since this is the entry level content for players it has many advantages to using Dungeons as opposed to fractals.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

When people ask about dungeons, direct them to fractals; that's the instanced content for "the rest of us."

Devs stopped support dungeons because it turns out to be a poor use of their time, compared to all the other things they have on their plate, including requests from us. The tools they used to design dungeons originally were clunky, the designs are sensitive to minor changes. So fixing bugs small or large is expensive. Fractals are designed to be easier to tinker with, to add new ones, and to add multiple difficulty levels.

There's now nearly as many fractals as explorable dungeon paths.

If the only issue is that people ask for dungeons, then let's change the name of the old dungeons to "instanced side stories" and fractals to "dungeons."

[Linken.6345]

I find it funny people in here think fractals dont teach, t1 teaches you the mechanics to get up to t2 then t3 and t4.

Have you even tried the same fractal on all dif brackets?

[Lily.1935]

@Linken.6345 said:I find it funny people in here think fractals dont teach, t1 teaches you the mechanics to get up to t2 then t3 and t4.

Have you even tried the same fractal on all dif brackets?

But it doesn't teach you game mechanics or how they work. I've known people who went years without realizing what a combo field was and who had done fractals up to T4. Fractals teaches you how to do fractals. it doesn't teach you how to do end game content as a whole.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Linken.6345 said:I find it funny people in here think fractals dont teach, t1 teaches you the mechanics to get up to t2 then t3 and t4.

Have you even tried the same fractal on all dif brackets?

But it doesn't teach you game mechanics or how they work. I've known people who went years without realizing what a combo field was and who had done fractals up to T4. Fractals teaches you how to do fractals. it doesn't teach you how to do end game content as a whole.

Dungeons don't teach you anything except how to do dungeons. I'm still not seeing a meaningful distinction.

[Walhalla.5473]

@Blocki.4931 said:They don't have a content team working on dungeons any longer, it's pointless. Fractals are the new and better dungeons

Its not just that Anet doesn't have a dungeon team anymore. Anet basically confirmed that the code of the dungeons is badly written. Some NPC's need to be completely rebuilt to have their bugs fixed and a small bug in fractals that would take a dev around 15-30 minutes to fix would take anet a whole day for dungeons. Basically it would be much easier for Anet to just delete the dungeons from the game and rebuilt them with new code insteas of overhauling them now with the current code ( and both is a LOT of work ). Sometimes when Anet talks about dungeons I think that there is a good chance that the dungeon team back then did it intentionally.

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:If the only issue is that people ask for dungeons, then let's change the name of the old dungeons to "instanced side stories" and fractals to "dungeons."

I would say, not advertising fractals as dungeons is the biggest mistake Anet made with fractals. Everyone and their grandma knows what a dungeon is. A fractal? Thats something you have to explain first. And it goes like " Dungeons with a tier and level system with special mechanics at higher levels " And lets be honest. Fractals are Anets version of dungeons and should be advertised as such

[flog.3485]

I don’t know what the OP thinks dungeons bring to the table. The one thing (standing out) that dungeon taught me personally, is that it is very efficient to lure mobs or a boss in a corner of a map with 5 players wearing berserker armor.

I learned more about the games mechanic by casually playing hotjoin PvP.

I also don’t think dungeons, even in its hayday taught players anything more than what fractals would teach players now for fresh Lvl 80 characters. Simply because I would assume that when giving a choice, the majority of players would rather casually lvl up a character in open world than going through the potential pain of getting into a dungeon at low lvl with unknown players (that might leave or become toxic if the content isn’t beaten fast enough).

When I was l leveling up a mesmer (some years ago) and once I started looking for dungeon groups as I unlocked them in the personal story, I always saw players listing high requirements like “lvl80 only 5k AP”. Because of that, I don’t think players used to play dungeons at low lvl and this is ultimately the main reason why the concept or dungeons failed in GW2 (except for the amount of gold you can get of course). Hence the suppression of the dungeon team back in 2013 (if I recall correctly. If not, please correct me).

[Lily.1935]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Linken.6345 said:I find it funny people in here think fractals dont teach, t1 teaches you the mechanics to get up to t2 then t3 and t4.

Have you even tried the same fractal on all dif brackets?

But it doesn't teach you game mechanics or how they work. I've known people who went years without realizing what a combo field was and who had done fractals up to T4. Fractals teaches you how to do fractals. it doesn't teach you how to do end game content as a whole.

Dungeons don't teach you anything except how to do dungeons. I'm still not seeing a meaningful distinction.

Dungeons currently don't teach you anything. The distinction you're missing is that is that Dungeons are accessible as you level. And because of this they can mimic end game content without being nearly as difficult to help condition players for the end game content. Fractals is really only accessible at max level. This distinction is extremely important and you should take note of that.

Not just that, Fractals are good as they are now. But dungeons are absolutely not, and there isn't anyone who'd argue otherwise who doesn't have some financial incentive involved in the company.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Lily.1935 said:Dungeons currently don't teach you anything. The distinction you're missing is that is that Dungeons are accessible as you level. And because of this they can mimic end game content without being nearly as difficult to help condition players for the end game content. Fractals is really only accessible at max level. This discretion is extremely important and you should take note of that.

T1 fractals are much easier/faster than most dungeon paths, to the point that a lot of them are solo-friendly even for not min-maxed players.Inside FotM you get the same buff as in WvW when you enter, which boosts you to level 80, so it's content available at almost all levels and without the need to change gear, because unlike dungeons where you gear is only downscale, in FotM, your gear is up-scaled to level 80.Furthermore, Fractals are available from Lion's Arch and do not require access to a specific zone, like dungeons do. Finally, you can enter any (T1) Fractal without problems, while to enter Explorable mode dungeons one person of the group must've finished the Story mode version first.

tl;dr Fractals are easier and more accessible than dungeons ever were or ever will be

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Here's the thing: making even minor changes to dungeons, for good reason or bad, is expensive. How does ANet weigh that effort against all the other things they could do with those same resources, that might be of equal or greater benefit to more people?

---

@Lily.1935 said:The distinction you're missing is that is that Dungeons are accessible as you level.Dungeons can be entered as we level. I wouldn't call them accessible in a practical sense. Players that need help aren't going to manage dungeons without their full traits/skills and those that don't need help don't need them to be different from their current state.

And because of this they can mimic end game content without being nearly as difficult to help condition players for the end game content.Except that they don't currently "mimic end game content." They are end-game content, just superseded by newer, more challenging content.

Fractals is really only accessible at max level.That's fair.

This distinction is extremely important and you should take note of that.I've taken note, but I disagree that it's meaningful for the audience targeted in the original post.

Not just that, Fractals are good as they are now. But dungeons are absolutely not,Dungeons are fine. They have some bugs, they never hit their full potential, and they could be much better. That's hardly the same as "absolutely not good."

there isn't anyone who'd argue otherwise who doesn't have some financial incentive involved in the company.What an odd thing to claim. How exactly would a financial incentive in the company make people favor one game mode over another? Aren't you trying to argue that updating dungeons would improve the game, so surely, if you're correct about that, people with a stake in ANet would want to see that happen, the better to profit.

There are more ways to improve GW2 than are dreamt of in your philosophy, @Lily.1935. Mixing facts with opinion undermines the strength of your rhetoric. It doesn't help your cause to attack people for disagreeing simply because they disagree.

[Lily.1935]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Here's the thing: making even minor changes to dungeons, for good reason or bad, is expensive. How does ANet weigh that effort against all the other things they could do with those same resources, that might be of equal or greater benefit to more people?

---

@Lily.1935 said:The distinction you're missing is that is that Dungeons are accessible as you level.Dungeons can be

entered

as we level. I wouldn't call them

accessible

in a practical sense. Players that need help aren't going to manage dungeons without their full traits/skills and those that don't need help don't need them to be different from their current state.

And because of this they can mimic end game content without being nearly as difficult to help condition players for the end game content.Except that they don't currently "mimic end game content." They are end-game content, just superseded by newer, more challenging content.

Fractals is really only accessible at max level.That's fair.

This distinction is extremely important and you should take note of that.I've taken note, but I disagree that it's meaningful for the audience targeted in the original post.

Not just that, Fractals are good as they are now. But dungeons are absolutely not,Dungeons are fine. They have some bugs, they never hit their full potential, and they could be much better. That's hardly the same as "absolutely not good."

there isn't anyone who'd argue otherwise who doesn't have some financial incentive involved in the company.What an odd thing to claim. How exactly would a financial incentive in the company make people favor one game mode over another? Aren't you trying to argue that updating dungeons would improve the game, so surely, if you're correct about that, people with a stake in ANet would want to see that happen, the better to profit.

There are more ways to improve GW2 than are dreamt of in your philosophy, @Lily.1935. Mixing facts with opinion undermines the strength of your rhetoric. It doesn't help your cause to attack people for disagreeing simply because they disagree.

Why do you guys keep fighting to keep content bad? I honestly can't make heads or tails of it on the forums. Am I just missing something? Its everything. No one wants the game to improve and everyone who does is met with hostility. I don't understand your guys's logic. It makes no sense to me what so ever. And I'm not attacking anyone. A financial incentive isn't an attack. You've invested into the game, you have a financial incentive. Arena net have been lying about updating content, they have a financial incentive. That's not an attack its just fact. I stopped supporting the game because they refuse to do what's needed to improve the game and have actively been going in a direction that is against the spirit of why I loved the game in the first place. When I talk to people who Love MMOs and why they don't play GW2, their feeling toward it are telling. My position isn't just coming from my own frustration but but the overall lack of interest from outsiders as well. I've had several guild members quit because of how bad the dungeons were. So clearly it is a problem.

I wont accept mediocrity. To me, it makes no sense to do so.