Consolidated Suggestions for DE Changes

[Schnuschnu.9857]

@saerni.2584 said:Hmm, I had a thought that was basically “what we really mean is ‘how can we apply vulnerability without buffing Sneak Attack.’”

So it made me think that Unload could apply a stacking charge that can be converted into vulnerability by a Sneak Attack.

Example: unload applies a 10 second self buff (stacks intensity up to 8 times) that applies vulnerability to a target struck with a stealth attack.

This gets around the conditions requirement aspect and makes Sneak Attack more valuable in Core and DE. The idea is to make Sneak Attack a viable part of a power P/P rotation and building for Stealth more normal.

Edit (tags): @Schnuschnu.9857

This is a good idea as it is a simple change which can be quickly implemented. It works good for all solo scenarios as you can stack might and vulnerability with ease. The only thing is this falls flat in any group scenario as you cap out on vulnerability fast so the stealth attack again would not really add any value to the P/P set but as I said, a good idea as it quickly fixes P/P in WvW roaming, open world PvE and to an extent PvP which is more than good enough at the moment as a full P/P rework is not the scope of this thread and the changes for DE.

[Cameryn.5310]

@"Almondjoy.8964" said:Deadeye wasn't made for P/P though. I know a lot of people are upset about it, but the chief design is about the rifle, so that takes priority of for the spec.

Deadeye isn't JUST about the rifle... it should have synchronicity with a variety of weapons. Rifle should take full advantage of it, but the trouble is that up until this latest patch, it was working fine with all of them; now it's not. ("Working fine" and "does not use malice for anything" in the case of a P/P deadeye are not the same thing.)

If the talent that provides stealth to a dodge when wielding the rifle was also extended to a P/P build, that would go a long way toward fixing this situation.

[Schnuschnu.9857]

@"Almondjoy.8964" said:

Deadeye wasn't made for P/P though. I know a lot of people are upset about it, but the chief design is about the rifle, so that takes priority of for the spec.

This is absolutly true, rifle has priority for the specs but that doesn't mean the P/P situation can't be addressed.

These elite specs can't suit every single playstyle while having a very specific design. The design they went with was a stealth based sniper, and it might not be suitable with P/P anymore which is unfortunate but not wrong.

As you mentioned in your post that because P/P daredevil is more flexible then I suggest using it.

The only problem I see with this is: A melee specs is working better with a range weapon set than a range spec. Doesn't seem logical. And in overhauls things break which doesn't mean you shouldn't fix them.

As a side note this is thier "Guild wars 2" interpretation of a sniper. I think they tied it to stealth simply because there aren't a lot of snipers irl that are just chillin out in the open but in order to make the class work for the game's sake they added things that aren't so sniper like as we see them. Thats is okay because thats what makes games an art. Just look at the beserker class. If you compare a somewhat traditional view you'd think fast swinging dual axes or in another interpretation a giant slow two handed axe but in this case they gave them a TORCH!?!?! Its crazy but that is their version of a beserker.

The torch fits the berserker perfectly in my opinion as it stands for the flames of war and burning rage. Wonderful symbolism and therefore good work by arenanet. I expect nothing from any class or elite spec because arena net makes anything work (ranged GS on Mesmer is a prime example).

[Lucinellia.9247]

@saerni.2584 said:I think you underestimate how powerful FfE is when you take OitC. The extra might from stolen skills can easily spike to 25 on you and allies around you.

I’m not inclined to agree with changes to FfE unless someone can point to an actual issue with the trait and explain how their solution addresses the perceived problem.

@saerni.2584That one is easy.

The opportunity cost of a Might and Fury share Deadeye in instanced PvE makes the build worthless.

Compare with Druid. A Druid takes Harrier gear and switches to Grace of the Land. They output 25 Might constantly on a raid group at the expense of some healing - healing which will easily be soaked up by a second healer (which can now be one of six professions) since Guild Wars 2 raids have low damage patterns, no real sustained damage and all healers overheal. That Druid is also still bringing pushes, Spirits, resses, Fury, Glyph of Empowerment and other utility as required. And CC pets.

Our intrepid support Deadeye can get no assistance from gear. Seeker's and Diviner's are not available in PvE! So our intrepid Deadeye support (which I've done in really, really struggling training raids with bad druids and also in Fractal CMs because I am a glutton for punishment) needs to take Deadeye 3 - 3 - 3, Trickery (instead of Critical Strikes) and Improvisation instead of executioner. And an almost full load out of cantrips which already diminishes the scant ability of Deadeye to be useful. Or deal damage.

So, really, for 25 Might and Fury constantly a Deadeye needs to drop about 12k benchmarks DPS (in my usage scenarios this has been closer to 9k DPS on bosses like Samarog, dropping from almost 18k to 9k which over a 7 minute fight is over 3.5 million lost damage). This DPS cannot be accounted for by other group members unlike the healing lost from a Druid providing Might.

The issue with Fire for Effect is therefore the far, far higher opportunity cost. Now, I wouldn't ask for a miracle. I'd personally hope a Fire for Effect Deadeye could at least be a viable off-meta choice in instanced PvE but to get there, the DPS loss needs to be far less. Because I continue to main Thief despite Anet's best efforts (and therefore must either hate myself or enjoy virtual neglect) I wouldn't hold out hope to get anything as good as a Druid. So, let's say we go for about a 3 - 5k DPS loss instead. About what warriors give up from their much higher benchmark DPS to provide the far more unique 6800 stats of banners. This would be achievable if a Deadeye had to run DE 3 - 3 - 3 and two cantrips. For that, Fire for Effect would need to grant 10 Might and Fury for around 18 seconds in PvE. That seems pretty fair, no?

Or to put it another way, the weakness in your argument is this:

The extra might from stolen skills can easily spike to 25 on you and allies around you.

Spikes of Might are useless in Fractals and Raids. Boons need to be sustained unless there is a massive rework of how boons work.

[Lucinellia.9247]

@saerni.2584

I also responded to you in the An Eye on the Deadeye thread further outlining some instanced PvE (raids and fractals) issues with Payback.

I hope it helps!

Also also, thank you for the work and effort you are putting in to collating the issues we have with Deadeye as it has been and as it is currently. It is really appreciated. It isn't much, but I hope the Thumbs Ups give you encouragement and let you know that members of the dwindling Thief community appreciate what you are doing.

That said, please try not to get into the mindset of a gatekeeper. It feels a little like that with respect to Fire for Effect where issues have been pointed out numerous times and you've asked for additional rationale and not included it as an issue. Abilities like Fire for Effect should absolutely be looked at, unless we are giving up on the notion of Deadeye being able to provide any reasonable PvE support.

[bq pd.2148]

@saerni.2584 said:Silent Scope

• Issue: Like all stealth gain traits this trait inherited a long standing issue where projectiles in flight can strike a target after stealth is applied, revealing the thief in the process. This is in the class of traits generally categorized as “functional but inconsistent” or “clunky.”
• UPDATED WITH DEVELOPER COMMENT
• @Robert Gee.9246 stated that the stealth will be moved to the end of the dodge roll within the next few weeks. They considered, but rejected (for now), a broader change to stealth that makes the thief temporarily immune to reveal to avoid lingering reveals.

he also added the in combat restriction will be removed, wich will allow us to quickly prestealth by depeleting our endurance for a suprise so pretty important change.:@Robert Gee.9246 said:However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait..@saerni.2584 said:BugsSniper’s Cover + Death’s Retreat

• Laying Cover and double tapping DR immediately stacks stealth on both the initial retreat AND the second DR after your character is no longer standing in the combo field.DR will behave like this with any combo field has nothing to do with sniper's cover, probably as the 2nd DR is already in the skillqueue before you leave the field.

[saerni.2584]

Noted, I’ll update it in a few minutes.

[Cameryn.5310]

@saerni.2584 said:Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

• Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.
• Solution: (WIP Placeholder) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

[Will.9785]

I've been thinking about this more and more. I posted this on Reddit earlier and I wanted to post it here too for visibility.

TLDR - revert just about everything except how malice is gained (with a couple tweaks), double malice stacks, make malice decay with movement.

1 - Revert rifle completely2 - Remove the stealth requirement and all of the new malicious stealth moves that were added3 - Revert malice back to a DPS boost per stack mechanic4 - Increase the maximum number of malice stacks (like double them at least)5 - Keep the change where hitting with initiative-spending attacks gains malice but also include auto- attacks. Add a stipulation where you must be stationary to gain stacks.6 - Change it so that you lose 1 stack of malice every second you are moving - certain movement skills (e.g. rolling from the kneeling position) would not count

So basically you would be rewarded the longer you attacked from a stationary position and penalized for moving. So simple. We would be viable in PVE - particularly those of us who are familiar with the encounters. We wouldn't be terribly OP in PVP or WVW. The opposition would have to deal with us to prevent us from gaining stacks and once they moved in we would begin to lose stacks as we moved to avoid them. This is not a spec where you would chase people down (we have Daredevil for that), but rather one where you would stake a claim and defend your turf.

Melee would still be OK. Assuming they doubled the number of stacks it would take 10 seconds to lose all of your stacks with continuous movement (14 if they doubled M7 and made it M14). At any time you could stop moving to build up more stacks.

It offers a playstyle that is different from anything else in the game currently - especially for thief.

[saerni.2584]

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

• Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.
• Solution: (
  WIP Placeholder
  ) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

The only solution to Kneel is making it a stance.Rule #1: Kneel is a toggle. Deadeye will kneel when not moving if active and not kneel when inactive.Rule #2: Auto swap to kneel skills when not moving if Kneel is active.Rule #3: When used with Silent Scope, the Deadeye will go in stealth when they stop moving. Keep the 10s ICD.

Very simple and gives the Deadeye the Rifle flexibility it needs. It's really counter-intuitive to require the Thief to stay still when their defense mainly relies on mobility and evasion.

[Gray.9041]

@Will.9785 said:snipped for brevity

I actually quite like this suggestion. It might make gunslinger P/P deadeye a non-thing, which wouldn't be great for players of that build, but it's actually not a bad way to handle deadeye. It gives the sniper feeling without a reliance on stealth (though, potentially benefiting from it (in non-PvE at least)), and also helps put in a limiting factor - you could have competetive damage while stationary, but be balanced in PvE by the need to move to survive (or, to only be competitive on some encounters) and balanced in PvP/WvW by the fact that non-AI enemies can and will force you to move.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

• Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.
• Solution: (
  WIP Placeholder
  ) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

[Cameryn.5310]

@saerni.2584 said:I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

Daredevil, like the standard five trait lines, provides MELEE RANGE steals. The reason why Deadeye is the solid choice for P/P is because it provides RANGE steals. Everything a P/P thief does is a ranged attack.

The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

I would argue that in all other cases, the inherent use of Malice is built into the spec. Whereas on the P/P deadeye, it's not... there is nothing in the P/P thief's basic toolkit that provides stealth as a baseline playstyle, only one utility and one elite cantrip. That basically takes the choice away entirely from the player, who is forced to spec into these two cantrips to have any vital interaction with stealth and, therefore, with a bonus condition (torment) that is quite useless. (Someone mentioned in another thread that it's useful for a condition P/P build... but P/P is a power support weapon combo.)

I've seen a number of suggestions that a dodge-stealth combo could only activate once every, say, 20 seconds or so (and ArenaNet can build in a clock for limited activation, they do it on all kinds of proc-based effects) or be nullified on an Unload, which let's face it is the standard attack of a P/P thief. ;)

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

• Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.
• Solution: (
  WIP Placeholder
  ) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

I personally do not like the idea of using dodge to gain stealth. It works for Daredevil only because it has a lot of ways to gain endurance plus it has a 3rd dodge. With the nerf to Feline Grace, this is not an acceptable way to gain stealth. There are several ways to gain stealth using P/P - you just need to be creative.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

• Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.
• Solution: (
  WIP Placeholder
  ) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

I personally do not like the idea of using dodge to gain stealth. It works for Daredevil only because it has a lot of ways to gain endurance plus it has a 3rd dodge. With the nerf to Feline Grace, this is not an acceptable way to gain stealth. There are several ways to gain stealth using P/P - you just need to be creative.

Those ways imply wasting a utility slot for something which should be part of package to begin with. Having it on dodge at least allows the P/P user to access stealth while still having the freedom to pick what skills they want without being forced to take a stealth skill. Using another weapon set is also not the answer since it still goes against the new DE reworks goals. With the way current things are, this is the best option to access stealth without a total P/P rework.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

• Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.
• Solution: (
  WIP Placeholder
  ) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

I personally do not like the idea of using dodge to gain stealth. It works for Daredevil only because it has a lot of ways to gain endurance plus it has a 3rd dodge. With the nerf to Feline Grace, this is not an acceptable way to gain stealth. There are several ways to gain stealth using P/P - you just need to be creative.

Those ways imply wasting a utility slot for something which should be part of package to begin with. Having it on dodge at least allows the P/P user to access stealth while still having the freedom to pick what skills they want without being forced to take a stealth skill. Using another weapon set is also not the answer since it still goes against the new DE reworks goals. With the way current things are, this is the best option to access stealth without a total P/P rework.

I have to disagree because P/P needed a rework for a very long time now and it has a stealth problem even before Deadeye. In my opinion, if P/P will get stealth capability, it should be in Core Thief, not in Deadeye.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

• Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.
• Solution: (
  WIP Placeholder
  ) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

I personally do not like the idea of using dodge to gain stealth. It works for Daredevil only because it has a lot of ways to gain endurance plus it has a 3rd dodge. With the nerf to Feline Grace, this is not an acceptable way to gain stealth. There are several ways to gain stealth using P/P - you just need to be creative.

Those ways imply wasting a utility slot for something which should be part of package to begin with. Having it on dodge at least allows the P/P user to access stealth while still having the freedom to pick what skills they want without being forced to take a stealth skill. Using another weapon set is also not the answer since it still goes against the new DE reworks goals. With the way current things are, this is the best option to access stealth without a total P/P rework.

I have to disagree because P/P needed a rework for a very long time now and it has a stealth problem even before Deadeye. In my opinion, if P/P will get stealth capability, it should be in Core Thief, not in Deadeye.

I am not disagreeing with you on P/P needing a rework because I think so too. What many others are proposing though is a stop gap measure until a full rework can be available. I will not wait months and months for them to them to do a total rework while P/P suffers in the mean time. I would rather have them add it to the roll and work a rework for P/P instead. Two birds one stone.

[babazhook.6805]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

• Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.
• Solution: (
  WIP Placeholder
  ) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

I personally do not like the idea of using dodge to gain stealth. It works for Daredevil only because it has a lot of ways to gain endurance plus it has a 3rd dodge. With the nerf to Feline Grace, this is not an acceptable way to gain stealth. There are several ways to gain stealth using P/P - you just need to be creative.

Those ways imply wasting a utility slot for something which should be part of package to begin with. Having it on dodge at least allows the P/P user to access stealth while still having the freedom to pick what skills they want without being forced to take a stealth skill. Using another weapon set is also not the answer since it still goes against the new DE reworks goals. With the way current things are, this is the best option to access stealth without a total P/P rework.

I have to disagree because P/P needed a rework for a very long time now and it has a stealth problem even before Deadeye. In my opinion, if P/P will get stealth capability, it should be in Core Thief, not in Deadeye.

The problem with a rework of p/p is what do you rework without affecting p/x abd x/p? You might well end up just robbing Peter to pay Paul and then having to rework Peter. Oooh notice how niceley peter and paul suit p/p? ;)

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

• Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.
• Solution: (
  WIP Placeholder
  ) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

I personally do not like the idea of using dodge to gain stealth. It works for Daredevil only because it has a lot of ways to gain endurance plus it has a 3rd dodge. With the nerf to Feline Grace, this is not an acceptable way to gain stealth. There are several ways to gain stealth using P/P - you just need to be creative.

Those ways imply wasting a utility slot for something which should be part of package to begin with. Having it on dodge at least allows the P/P user to access stealth while still having the freedom to pick what skills they want without being forced to take a stealth skill. Using another weapon set is also not the answer since it still goes against the new DE reworks goals. With the way current things are, this is the best option to access stealth without a total P/P rework.

I have to disagree because P/P needed a rework for a very long time now and it has a stealth problem even before Deadeye. In my opinion, if P/P will get stealth capability, it should be in Core Thief, not in Deadeye.

The problem with a rework of p/p is what do you rework without affecting p/x abd x/p? You might well end up just robbing Peter to pay Paul and then having to rework Peter. Oooh notice how niceley peter and paul suit p/p? ;)

I would rather have P/P with it's own skills separate from P/X and X/P. Once you equip both pistols, it changes to something completely different from the current skills. That is the only true way to give P/P a fighting chance. It can't be bogged down with worries about X/P and P/X.

[babazhook.6805]

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

• Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.
• Solution: (
  WIP Placeholder
  ) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

I personally do not like the idea of using dodge to gain stealth. It works for Daredevil only because it has a lot of ways to gain endurance plus it has a 3rd dodge. With the nerf to Feline Grace, this is not an acceptable way to gain stealth. There are several ways to gain stealth using P/P - you just need to be creative.

Those ways imply wasting a utility slot for something which should be part of package to begin with. Having it on dodge at least allows the P/P user to access stealth while still having the freedom to pick what skills they want without being forced to take a stealth skill. Using another weapon set is also not the answer since it still goes against the new DE reworks goals. With the way current things are, this is the best option to access stealth without a total P/P rework.

I have to disagree because P/P needed a rework for a very long time now and it has a stealth problem even before Deadeye. In my opinion, if P/P will get stealth capability, it should be in Core Thief, not in Deadeye.

The problem with a rework of p/p is what do you rework without affecting p/x abd x/p? You might well end up just robbing Peter to pay Paul and then having to rework Peter. Oooh notice how niceley peter and paul suit p/p? ;)

I would rather have P/P with it's own skills separate from P/X and X/P. Once you equip both pistols, it changes to something completely different from the current skills. That is the only true way to give P/P a fighting chance. It can't be bogged down with worries about X/P and P/X.

Yes that would be ideal but that would in essence make p/p a one off in that regard wherein every skill on it akin to a dual wield. I do not want to get too much into p/p discussions as I think they do not serve this thread well.

[Cameryn.5310]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I have to disagree because P/P needed a rework for a very long time now and it has a stealth problem even before Deadeye. In my opinion, if P/P will get stealth capability, it should be in Core Thief, not in Deadeye.

Just FYI, the opinions about this are germane to the situation at hand, i.e. that we currently don't have ANY options for stealth as a P/P deadeye unless we use two cantrips.

I agree with you that stealth should be part of the P/P base weapon set if they want to inflict stealth necessity on us. That would solve much of the issue. Unfortunately, nothing in that base weapon skill set provides it.

[Gray.9041]

I'd say that rather than rework P/P to have stealth, the issue is forcing the necessity for stealth onto a stealth less playstyle.

I've always found that stealthless thief is more effective (in PvE anyway, where most important enemies completely ignore it), and P/P has always been about movement rather than stealth. Honestly, the forcing of stealth onto Deadeye is the source of half the issues the rework has caused.

[DemonSeed.3528]

When everyone is mentioning stealth on p/p, is that just when people take deadeye or for everyone too like core/hot?

[bq pd.2148]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The only solution to Kneel is making it a stance.Rule #1: Kneel is a toggle. Deadeye will kneel when not moving if active and not kneel when inactive.Rule #2: Auto swap to kneel skills when not moving if Kneel is active.Rule #3: When used with Silent Scope, the Deadeye will go in stealth when they stop moving. Keep the 10s ICD.

Very simple and gives the Deadeye the Rifle flexibility it needs. It's really counter-intuitive to require the Thief to stay still when their defense mainly relies on mobility and evasion.

there is no 10s cooldown on silent scope atm or atleast you can remove it, so with your suggestion that would be a nerf. currently you can invest into endurance gain with food, vigor etc so that you can pretty much enter stealth again as soon as revealed debuff is gone. with your suggestion you got to wait 10 secconds.on top having to move to not burn that cooldown is pretty weird and when i stop for a TRB i really dont need that stealth, that means i am at a safe spot already.a thieves defense is : mobility, evasion, stealth.deadeye focuses on stealth. and you got a lot of stealth especially while kneeling with a rifle. so far stealth is an underused defensive mechanic because aside from avoiding fights it doesnt do much. and in any mode you need to fight. you can evade while still dealing damage, you can use your mobility to kite while dealing damage but if you stealth you pause the fight. on top mobility and evasion when properly used will reduce incoming damage by 100%, while you can still die in stealth.stealth on evade was a good thing for deadeye in terms of power, because it is uninterruptable stealth access on very low cooldow (endurance). but it was bad for the sniper feel. i care more about power then sniper feel, so i love it.

not sure what your issue with kneel is, but dont touch my stealth access!