In your opinion, do any changes need to be made to Demon?

[Rhadament.3752]

Tbh rather than seeing Demon reworked i'd rather have weapon skills cost no energy. So energy would only be used for legends skills. That would make class way more intersting and flashy cause you could use spam weapon skills without warrying about unkeep like IO or hammers. And ofc power brought up to par. I don't like condi revenant. Or rather i don't like condi weapons for revenant.

[narcx.3570]

@otto.5684 said:

@narcx.3570 said:As I mentioned in some of the other threads like this, it's tough to fix, because any buffs to Mallyx that would actually let them compete against Scourge/Supp FB would leave them INSANELY op against other classes. The best idea I can think of would be to make the resistance applied by Pain Absorption on yourself not be a boon, so you could actually contend points vs Scourges. Would this be too strong against other condi classes? Probably. Another idea is to make the additional resistance applied by PA in team fights stackable instead of increasing its duration--similar to how you can stack multiple stabilities to protect against multiple cc's, this would protect against multiple boon strips/corrupts.

The idea that mallyx will dominate if it was buffed enough is not correct and we have proof for that. In the end of HoT cycle (more like after the first 2 patches) condi rev used to deal much more damage in PvP and yet it was not competitive either. Granted, it was not as terrible as it is now. But there is a reason it was not competitive.

It is not a strong solo. Most of the damage is aoe targeted and easily avoidable. It has some serious cast times. It’s mobility is okay, but you cannot really escape combat, or do much to chase targets. It’s only advantage back in the day was the damage was done quick, so if you landed your damage, it would quickly annhilate targets, if the condis left uncleansed. But thanks to the condi duration nerf, in Dec 2017 (which somehow rev ended up being the biggest loser), it’s only strength is gone.

Even if I can somewhat maintain 100% resistance uptime, I would lack the damage and sustainability necessary to succeed in a team fight. And I would only do well in smaller fights against mirage and scourge.

In order for condi rev to be competitive it needs couple of things:

1. Less susceptibility to boon removal/corruption, particularly losing resistance.
2. The entire mallyx utilities energy costs need to be re-examined.
3. Slightly improvements in sustainability.
4. Faster cast times on mace 2&3 and UA.
5. Major damage improvements. Getting back to pre Dec 2017 patch is minimum (and honestly would not happen).

But Mallyx Herald WAS pretty competitive at the end of HoT, especially if you were playing it in a pseudo-hybrid manner like Sage/Leadership. It had easily the most dominating point pressure available (you could argue DH put out more point pressure, but Mallyx hard countered DH), and it was a much safer Bunker-busting option than squishpants Reaper was in the time when boon-bunkers were determining the meta.

The thing is, it's not a solo spec, I don't know why you would try to play it that way... Everything in Mallyx is about AoE and point pressure. It's attacks are very easy to avoid in a 1v1 situation, especially where there's not a point to contest.

The duration nerf is honestly such a slight issue, who are you playing against that is eating 8 seconds of a torment instead of 6? That should be a non-factor unless you are just dueling Power-Revs. :bleep_bloop: In PvP, constant condi application is where it's at, as duration is easily undermined by cleanse, which is what makes support FB such a problem for really any condi build... The amount of steady cleansing and condi-conversion they crank out is ridiculous... It's honestly pretty impossible for any team-fight oriented condi class to succeed if even a semi-competent one is around. You could buff Mally'x damage to comically op levels, and a single FB could still 100% shut you down indefinitely... The problem isn't with how Mallyx is tuned, it's how easily it's countered by popular, easy-to-play, classes.

[otto.5684]

@narcx.3570 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@narcx.3570 said:As I mentioned in some of the other threads like this, it's tough to fix, because any buffs to Mallyx that would actually let them compete against Scourge/Supp FB would leave them INSANELY op against other classes. The best idea I can think of would be to make the resistance applied by Pain Absorption on yourself not be a boon, so you could actually contend points vs Scourges. Would this be too strong against other condi classes? Probably. Another idea is to make the additional resistance applied by PA in team fights stackable instead of increasing its duration--similar to how you can stack multiple stabilities to protect against multiple cc's, this would protect against multiple boon strips/corrupts.

The idea that mallyx will dominate if it was buffed enough is not correct and we have proof for that. In the end of HoT cycle (more like after the first 2 patches) condi rev used to deal much more damage in PvP and yet it was not competitive either. Granted, it was not as terrible as it is now. But there is a reason it was not competitive.

It is not a strong solo. Most of the damage is aoe targeted and easily avoidable. It has some serious cast times. It’s mobility is okay, but you cannot really escape combat, or do much to chase targets. It’s only advantage back in the day was the damage was done quick, so if you landed your damage, it would quickly annhilate targets, if the condis left uncleansed. But thanks to the condi duration nerf, in Dec 2017 (which somehow rev ended up being the biggest loser), it’s only strength is gone.

Even if I can somewhat maintain 100% resistance uptime, I would lack the damage and sustainability necessary to succeed in a team fight. And I would only do well in smaller fights against mirage and scourge.

In order for condi rev to be competitive it needs couple of things:

1. Less susceptibility to boon removal/corruption, particularly losing resistance.
2. The entire mallyx utilities energy costs need to be re-examined.
3. Slightly improvements in sustainability.
4. Faster cast times on mace 2&3 and UA.
5. Major damage improvements. Getting back to pre Dec 2017 patch is minimum (and honestly would not happen).

But Mallyx Herald WAS pretty competitive at the end of HoT, especially if you were playing it in a pseudo-hybrid manner like Sage/Leadership. It had easily the most dominating point pressure available (you could argue DH put out more point pressure, but Mallyx hard countered DH), and it was a much safer Bunker-busting option than squishpants Reaper was in the time when boon-bunkers were determining the meta.

The thing is, it's not a solo spec, I don't know why you would try to play it that way... Everything in Mallyx is about AoE and point pressure. It's attacks are very easy to avoid in a 1v1 situation, especially where there's not a point to contest.

The duration nerf is honestly such a slight issue, who are you playing against that is eating 8 seconds of a torment instead of 6? That should be a non-factor unless you are just dueling Power-Revs. :bleep_bloop: In PvP, constant condi application is where it's at, as duration is easily undermined by cleanse, which is what makes support FB such a problem for really any condi build... The amount of steady cleansing and condi-conversion they crank out is ridiculous... It's honestly pretty impossible for any team-fight oriented condi class to succeed if even a semi-competent one is around. You could buff Mally'x damage to comically op levels, and a single FB could still 100% shut you down indefinitely... The problem isn't with how Mallyx is tuned, it's how easily it's countered by popular, easy-to-play, classes.

Pre PoF mallyx was decent, competitive? It was on mid tier at best. And the condi duration makes a huge difference, cuz no one is going to eat the entire condi to its full duration. The idea is how much damage you can deal before the conditions were removed and that is where mallyx damage was significantly hit.

The example you gave of 6 secs vs 8 secs is good one to use. Assuming that you will get 2 sec duration before cleanse, that would be a 33% of the condi damage with 6 sec base and 25% of 8 sec duration. This is 24.24% drop in damage (8/33 x 100%) within the 2 seconds time window. This is extremely significant. But here is where it gets funny. Most of the damage nerfs where far more than that.

Mace 3, from 5 stacks over 10 secs to 4 stacks over 8 secs.

Axe 5 from 3 stacked over 8 seconds to 2 stacks over 12 secs.

Abyssal chill, from 2 stacks over 3 secs to 1 stack over 6 secs.

Maniacal presnce from 4 stacks over 5 secs to 2 stacks over 10 secs.

Also, the poison application went through the same process, where the stacks were halved and duration is doubled.

It is hard to do precise math on all of the above, but if you assume under 5 seconds uptime before conditions are cleansed, this is somewhere between 40-45% damage nerf today compared to pre PoF.

Factor in mallyx difficulty in applying damage, over reliance on resistance to fight condi damage and stability to protect long cast times, and you get the dumpster fire we have know.

Note, I mentioned the solo capacity because it impact roles you can fulfill. If you cannot play mid, you cannot solo and a poor +1, not much is left for you to do.

Saying that anet cannot do much to fix the issue, at a minimum they can reverse the duration nerfs. That would not even be remotely close to enough, but at least we can pose a threat if left unchecked.

[guildabd.6529]

Unyielding Anguish should transfer a condition to foe per hit.

[Hiki.9310]

Add stability to unyielding anguish and make pain absorption instant cast. It also needs sustain, so maybe let embrace the darkness heal for a percentage of out going condition damage.

[Kronos.2560]

I think they need to undo the change where they doubled the duration and halfed the intensity. I only PVE for most part and even then you get what like 5 seconds before mob dies or boss cleanses condis? When are you gonna need 30 seconds of poison duration..

Another thing is with manical persistence trait it used to be high intensity for short where resistance covered the self torment damage but now it's a suicide button. Resistance lasts a 2-4 seconds and torment for 14 instead of 7.. and no condition clear on mallyx so now you eat the entire thing.

And finally every time I play condition rev I realize how weak it is. Firebrand is other similar aoe spam condis in my kind and it's just night and day difference. Rev I deal 4k ticks, guard 10k (from only 1 skill). Yes maybe firebrand is over tuned but I think it's that and rev is just not in a great place. Would love to start playing my.condi rev again but oh well maybe someday.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Kronos.2560 said:I think they need to undo the change where they doubled the duration and halfed the intensity. I only PVE for most part and even then you get what like 5 seconds before mob dies or boss cleanses condis? When are you gonna need 30 seconds of poison duration..

Another thing is with manical persistence trait it used to be high intensity for short where resistance covered the self torment damage but now it's a suicide button. Resistance lasts a 2-4 seconds and torment for 14 instead of 7.. and no condition clear on mallyx so now you eat the entire thing.

And finally every time I play condition rev I realize how weak it is. Firebrand is other similar aoe spam condis in my kind and it's just night and day difference. Rev I deal 4k ticks, guard 10k (from only 1 skill). Yes maybe firebrand is over tuned but I think it's that and rev is just not in a great place. Would love to start playing my.condi rev again but oh well maybe someday.

Yes 37k on big hitbox...condi renegade is in a terrible place /s

[Kronos.2560]

Yay for only 1 playstyle and a full group that doesn't leave a small circle in order to get that 37k on a large hitbox golem, solo it will go substantially down and i was talking just mallyx. But that what just my two cents not worth all that much but I feel like mallyx could get some love.

[otto.5684]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Kronos.2560 said:I think they need to undo the change where they doubled the duration and halfed the intensity. I only PVE for most part and even then you get what like 5 seconds before mob dies or boss cleanses condis? When are you gonna need 30 seconds of poison duration..

Another thing is with manical persistence trait it used to be high intensity for short where resistance covered the self torment damage but now it's a suicide button. Resistance lasts a 2-4 seconds and torment for 14 instead of 7.. and no condition clear on mallyx so now you eat the entire thing.

And finally every time I play condition rev I realize how weak it is. Firebrand is other similar aoe spam condis in my kind and it's just night and day difference. Rev I deal 4k ticks, guard 10k (from only 1 skill). Yes maybe firebrand is over tuned but I think it's that and rev is just not in a great place. Would love to start playing my.condi rev again but oh well maybe someday.

Yes 37k on big hitbox...condi renegade is in a terrible place /s

I dunno why we have to repeat this statement in every condi rev thread. If you are only good in raids and mainly against large boxes then clearly you are not good.

[lunaeclipse.6843]

@otto.5684 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Kronos.2560 said:I think they need to undo the change where they doubled the duration and halfed the intensity. I only PVE for most part and even then you get what like 5 seconds before mob dies or boss cleanses condis? When are you gonna need 30 seconds of poison duration..

Another thing is with manical persistence trait it used to be high intensity for short where resistance covered the self torment damage but now it's a suicide button. Resistance lasts a 2-4 seconds and torment for 14 instead of 7.. and no condition clear on mallyx so now you eat the entire thing.

And finally every time I play condition rev I realize how weak it is. Firebrand is other similar aoe spam condis in my kind and it's just night and day difference. Rev I deal 4k ticks, guard 10k (from only 1 skill). Yes maybe firebrand is over tuned but I think it's that and rev is just not in a great place. Would love to start playing my.condi rev again but oh well maybe someday.

Yes 37k on big hitbox...condi renegade is in a terrible place /s

I dunno why we have to repeat this statement in every condi rev thread. If you are only good in raids and mainly against large boxes then clearly you are not good.

To be fair, it is still really good against small hitboxes too, if you abuse sb3.

With sb3 abuse the only skill that suffers from hitbox size is citadel bombardment, which is at most a 1.5k dps loss assuming you don't use the skill at all (you need to change over the gm trait in renegade based on the hitbox size).

That said, i would really like to not have to rely on changing all my settings to abuse a single skill. I wish they would rework it so you choose a point and the 7 portals appear around that point in a circle, firing the arrows from there.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@otto.5684 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Kronos.2560 said:I think they need to undo the change where they doubled the duration and halfed the intensity. I only PVE for most part and even then you get what like 5 seconds before mob dies or boss cleanses condis? When are you gonna need 30 seconds of poison duration..

Another thing is with manical persistence trait it used to be high intensity for short where resistance covered the self torment damage but now it's a suicide button. Resistance lasts a 2-4 seconds and torment for 14 instead of 7.. and no condition clear on mallyx so now you eat the entire thing.

And finally every time I play condition rev I realize how weak it is. Firebrand is other similar aoe spam condis in my kind and it's just night and day difference. Rev I deal 4k ticks, guard 10k (from only 1 skill). Yes maybe firebrand is over tuned but I think it's that and rev is just not in a great place. Would love to start playing my.condi rev again but oh well maybe someday.

Yes 37k on big hitbox...condi renegade is in a terrible place /s

I dunno why we have to repeat this statement in every condi rev thread. If you are only good in raids and mainly against large boxes then clearly you are not good.

I dunno why we have to repeat this every time it comes up, but condi renegade performs fine in all current pve content, even small hitbox & fractals. Not being top pick at everything doesn’t mean it’s bad or “not good.”

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

I would like the BWE Mallyx concept with streamlined approach they have done to the skills

[InsaneQR.7412]

Empowering misery:Consume conditions on you and heal yourself gain resistance per condition consumed.

Pain absorption: reduce energy cost down to 10No longer breaks stun.

Banish enchantment: Change to PbAoEBlast finisherApply confusion and remove boons.If you remove boons gain resistance for a short time.

Unyielding anguish: Now breaks stun

Embrace darkness:Transform into a demonic avatar, increasing the dmg and the duration of conditions inflicted and tormenting foes arround you.You are not effected by certain conditions in this stance.These conditions are: Vuln, weakness, blind, cripple, slow, chill, immob, fear and taunt.

Traits:Traits should have 3 lines.

First: more conditions on you means more difficult to killSecond: More condition dmgThird:Boonsteal

Minors: Focussing on TormentAdept: Rampant Vex: Default

Master: Opportune Extraction: Gain resistance when you inflict torment on a target above the threshold. (2s resistance) Can only happen once per target per intervall (8s).

Grantmaster: Yearning Empowerment: Default

Defensive Line:Adept: Replenishing DespairMaster: Demonic Defiance (resistance duration is now 3s)GM: Bolstered Anguish: Take less condition dmg per condition on you, absorb conditions from enemies when you deal the killing blow.5% less dmg taken (PvE)

Condition Heavy Line:Adept: Venom enchantment: When you inflict poison you also inflict torment. Critical hits have a chance to inflict poison.Master: Abyssal chill: DefaultGM: Maniacal Inferno: Lash out when gaining resistance burning nearby foes.

Corrupting Line:Adept: Spontenious Destruction: DefaultMaster: Pulsating Pestilence: Invoking a legend steals boons and transfers conditions to enemies. 2 each.GM: Diabolic Persistance: Using an Elite skill flips boons on enemies.Number of boons flipped 3 (ICD 8s)

Thatd how i would make it. Streamlining is always good IMO.

[otto.5684]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Kronos.2560 said:I think they need to undo the change where they doubled the duration and halfed the intensity. I only PVE for most part and even then you get what like 5 seconds before mob dies or boss cleanses condis? When are you gonna need 30 seconds of poison duration..

Another thing is with manical persistence trait it used to be high intensity for short where resistance covered the self torment damage but now it's a suicide button. Resistance lasts a 2-4 seconds and torment for 14 instead of 7.. and no condition clear on mallyx so now you eat the entire thing.

And finally every time I play condition rev I realize how weak it is. Firebrand is other similar aoe spam condis in my kind and it's just night and day difference. Rev I deal 4k ticks, guard 10k (from only 1 skill). Yes maybe firebrand is over tuned but I think it's that and rev is just not in a great place. Would love to start playing my.condi rev again but oh well maybe someday.

Yes 37k on big hitbox...condi renegade is in a terrible place /s

I dunno why we have to repeat this statement in every condi rev thread. If you are only good in raids and mainly against large boxes then clearly you are not good.

I dunno why we have to repeat this every time it comes up, but condi renegade performs fine in all current pve content, even small hitbox & fractals. Not being top pick at everything doesn’t mean it’s bad or “not good.”

It is weak in all non-raid PvE content (thanks to the long setup, primed towards large hit boxes and requiring allies for optimal damage) and unusable in PvP. It also failed to add anything new to the class that did not exist pre-PoF, considering that it is mainly used as condi dps and primarily uses mace/axe. If this is not the definition of failure not sure what is.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

In my opinion, ANet should aim to have all legends to be most naturally specialized for a particular build, but also to have each legend be viable for alternative builds beyond its primary purpose/theme. This is something that Revenant as a whole struggles with, and something that even further sets back build diversity. Naturally, Mallyx's theme should complement condition builds the best, but still be a solid option for other builds. At the moment, it lacks in both of these to varying degrees in PvP and WvW. I thought up some ideas of how it could be changed to better support a variety of builds, as well as to improve condi Revenant builds' performance. I used to main Condi Rev pre-PoF but I do admit I have not played it much since then.

• Unyielding Anguish: This skill's functionality has been changed and now has a secondary flip-over skill:

1. Unyielding Anguish: "Create a demonic field at the targeted area that torments and chills foes." This no longer causes you to leap to the affected area. Reduced energy to 25. Cast time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds. Power damage scaling has been increased.
2. Demonic Manifestation: "Consume yourself into the darkness, shadowstepping to your currently active "Unyielding Anguish"." Energy cost: 5. Cast time 0.25 seconds.• Banish Enchantment: Power damage increased per boon removed by foe.• Pain Absorption: Resistance granted to allies now pulses twice for 1 second each. Cast time reduced to 0.25 seconds, down from 0.5 seconds.• Embrace the Darkness: Has been reworked.5 Energy, 3 Upkeep; Cast Time: 3/4 secSummon the power of the legendary demon to transform into a powerful avatar, chilling all foes around you. While transformed, your other Legendary Demon Stance skills are enhanced. Heal yourself for every condition you apply.Initial Hit: AoE Chill [3s] (240 Radius, 5 Targets)Heal: ~50 per condition (Per condition meaning 4x of torment = 200 health gained. Would probably need to be adjusted since this could yield way too much healing in AoE settings.)Enhanced Skills:
   • Empowering Misery: Gain might [3x] per condition currently active on you upon healing.
   • Pain Absorption: Also applies protection [3s] to yourself and allies within the radius.
   • Banish Enchantment: When reaching the target, this skill explodes, removing boons from foes in the surrounding area. Number of total targets from the initial beam and the blast cannot exceed 5 combined. (Radius 240)
   • Unyielding Anguish: Increase range by 300. Increase radius by 60.
   • Demonic Manifestation: Increase range by 300. Applies burn [4s] and slow [2s] to foes in your field.