Still no mesmer balance?

[otto.5684]

@Scar.1793 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Scar.1793 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:So ; first time i really play Pvp. First season . first 10 matches - > instant gold 2.

50% of enemy attack my clones , while i stand next to them.30% of enemys attack the air after i bombed 20 stacks confusion on them.20% of enemys know how to play the game.

Most ppl just faceroll the keyboards. They have no single idea what happens on the battlefield. Reaction time etc is very low. They don't even know how to play the Gamemode. Those are the people who complain about any class. You will probably see posts about guards doin too much burn , thiefs for posion, necro on torment, ele and holo doin too much direct dmg ...whatever.

Try dodge, cleanse, disengage , +1 .....

Okay what happens if the class has no proper escape tools or cleanse ? Mesmer can chase you easily and reapply the conditions.

Putting the blame on people being bad is a classic.

Curiosity.What class has no access to escape or cleanses

Seriously just try the classes in the mists and you’ll know.

@otto.5684 said:

@Scar.1793 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:So ; first time i really play Pvp. First season . first 10 matches - > instant gold 2.

50% of enemy attack my clones , while i stand next to them.30% of enemys attack the air after i bombed 20 stacks confusion on them.20% of enemys know how to play the game.

Most ppl just faceroll the keyboards. They have no single idea what happens on the battlefield. Reaction time etc is very low. They don't even know how to play the Gamemode. Those are the people who complain about any class. You will probably see posts about guards doin too much burn , thiefs for posion, necro on torment, ele and holo doin too much direct dmg ...whatever.

Try dodge, cleanse, disengage , +1 .....

Okay what happens if the class has no proper escape tools or cleanse ? Mesmer can chase you easily and reapply the conditions.

Putting the blame on people being bad is a classic.

All classes have either or, if not both. Here is the thing though, if your class does not have good aoe and cleanse capacity, why are you engaging Mesmer solo to being with?!

Ok so if I see a mesmer and I’m on my own I will alt-f4 or leave the wvw map. Sounds like one hell of a way to play.

Almost forgot this topic was in the mesmer subforum, but got quickly the reminder with these replies lol. It’s not the mesmer yup, the recent nerfs were undeserved for sure. Look at the polls guys, mesmer is far beyond others and you are getting carried by your class not your own abilities or awareness.

For the record I do not play Mesmer at all in pvp. And my response was more geared towards sPvP. However, it is kind of the same story in wvw. If you are playing a roaming class you should be able to disengage most of the time. And there is no balance what so ever in wvw roaming. It is typically dominated by 1-2 specs that are typically the most powerful solo in the current meta.

Going back to spvp, between holo, gurdians and necros there is so much aoe going on. After the last patch nerf mirage seems to be in a decent place. It holds a solid place on the side modes, but suffer to strong aoe.

I still think they should remove elusive mind, but will see what happens next patch. I do not think a nerf to damage is warranted at all.

[Solori.6025]

@Scar.1793 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Scar.1793 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:So ; first time i really play Pvp. First season . first 10 matches - > instant gold 2.

50% of enemy attack my clones , while i stand next to them.30% of enemys attack the air after i bombed 20 stacks confusion on them.20% of enemys know how to play the game.

Most ppl just faceroll the keyboards. They have no single idea what happens on the battlefield. Reaction time etc is very low. They don't even know how to play the Gamemode. Those are the people who complain about any class. You will probably see posts about guards doin too much burn , thiefs for posion, necro on torment, ele and holo doin too much direct dmg ...whatever.

Try dodge, cleanse, disengage , +1 .....

Okay what happens if the class has no proper escape tools or cleanse ? Mesmer can chase you easily and reapply the conditions.

Putting the blame on people being bad is a classic.

Curiosity.What class has no access to escape or cleanses

Seriously just try the classes in the mists and you’ll know.You should take your own advice..

For the record. There is no class in this game that doesn't have access to one of the things you listed.Maybe next time try not making broad statements that are untrue, and could be easily verified as such.

[Hot Boy.7138]

There are some overtuned builds across a few classes. Condi axe/staff mirage is definitely one of them. The amount of conditions one can apply in a certain time frame really needs to be looked at. It's a bit outrageous.

I agree that one of the issues with mirage is locking them down. However, I think that's more due to stealth in combination with clone spams and retargetting skills. I don't think elusive mine is the issue. There are classes that can pretty much keep up 90%+ uptime on stability, making them practically perma immune to CC. I would say that trumps the ability to break CC on dodge. Cause to not even have to worry about being CCed ever is very very strong.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't take Elusive Mind for the stun break. As a matter of fact, I would still take the trait even if it didn't have a stunbreak. The condition clear is the reason it is taken. With this condi meta, you always need more clears. And even still, I find myself not having enough when dealing with condi mirages and I have to use runes of lyssa to help out.

I don't think anyone can rationally say condi axe/staff mirage is a fair build. It's ridiculously overtuned for pvp. However, the issue lies in that everyone disagrees in why it isn't balanced, and then you have the camp that feels their pvp triumphs are being undermined by admitting the build is too strong. I think it's the combination of easy to repeat extreme condi burst, stealth, retargetting skills (ax3 and amubush). I really don't think Elusive Mind is the issue at all.

So if it were me, this is how I would balance the issue, or what I think the issue is I should say:1) I do think mirage has too many escapes. So I would make all mesmers have to choose between having clones and having stealth. I really think it's too strong having both in combination.2) I would make confusion not apply damage to auto attacks, heal and cleanse skills. Cause you really can't even cleave down clones when you have confusion. And you can't even wait it out cause then you end up with more stacks of confusion.3) I would give mantras a 0.1 sec cast time.4) I would make greatsword 2 Blockable.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Hot Boy.7138 said:There are some overtuned builds across a few classes. Condi axe/staff mirage is definitely one of them. The amount of conditions one can apply in a certain time frame really needs to be looked at. It's a bit outrageous.

I agree that one of the issues with mirage is locking them down. However, I think that's more due to stealth in combination with clone spams and retargetting skills. I don't think elusive mine is the issue. There are classes that can pretty much keep up 90%+ uptime on stability, making them practically perma immune to CC. I would say that trumps the ability to break CC on dodge. Cause to not even have to worry about being CCed ever is very very strong.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't take Elusive Mind for the stun break. As a matter of fact, I would still take the trait even if it didn't have a stunbreak. The condition clear is the reason it is taken. With this condi meta, you always need more clears. And even still, I find myself not having enough when dealing with condi mirages and I have to use runes of lyssa to help out.

I don't think anyone can rationally say condi axe/staff mirage is a fair build. It's ridiculously overtuned for pvp. However, the issue lies in that everyone disagrees in why it being so balanced, and then you have the camp that feels their pvp triumphs are being undermined by admitting the build is too strong. I think it's the combination of easy to repeat extreme condi burst, stealth, retargetting skills (ax3 and amubush). I really don't think Elusive Mind is the issue at all.

So if it were me, this is how I would balance the issue, or what I think the issue is I should say:1) I do think mirage has too many escapes. So I would make all mesmers have to choose between having clones and having stealth. I really think it's too strong having both in combination.2) I would make confusion not apply damage to auto attacks, heal and cleanse skills. Cause you really can't even cleave down clones when you have confusion. And you can't even wait it out cause then you end up with more stacks of confusion.3) I would give mantras a 0.1 sec cast time.4) I would make greatsword 2 Blockable.

1. So nerf the whole class because of one elite spec and basically take the class mechanic off the table if you'd like to run torch or any stealth skill (we only have 3 good ones). Not a good fix.
2. I can see on cleanse skills maybe, confusion is supposed to discourage blindly using auto attacks or other skills so no, it has to stay those.
3. Do you mean to prevent the one power shatter combo? You just said classes have 90%+ uptime stability.
4. It's dodgeable and slow.

[Hot Boy.7138]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@"Hot Boy.7138" said:There are some overtuned builds across a few classes. Condi axe/staff mirage is definitely one of them. The amount of conditions one can apply in a certain time frame really needs to be looked at. It's a bit outrageous.

I agree that one of the issues with mirage is locking them down. However, I think that's more due to stealth in combination with clone spams and retargetting skills. I don't think elusive mine is the issue. There are classes that can pretty much keep up 90%+ uptime on stability, making them practically perma immune to CC. I would say that trumps the ability to break CC on dodge. Cause to not even have to worry about being CCed ever is very very strong.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't take Elusive Mind for the stun break. As a matter of fact, I would still take the trait even if it didn't have a stunbreak. The condition clear is the reason it is taken. With this condi meta, you always need more clears. And even still, I find myself not having enough when dealing with condi mirages and I have to use runes of lyssa to help out.

I don't think anyone can rationally say condi axe/staff mirage is a fair build. It's ridiculously overtuned for pvp. However, the issue lies in that everyone disagrees in why it being so balanced, and then you have the camp that feels their pvp triumphs are being undermined by admitting the build is too strong. I think it's the combination of easy to repeat extreme condi burst, stealth, retargetting skills (ax3 and amubush). I really don't think Elusive Mind is the issue at all.

So if it were me, this is how I would balance the issue, or what I think the issue is I should say:1) I do think mirage has too many escapes. So I would make all mesmers have to choose between having clones and having stealth. I really think it's too strong having both in combination.2) I would make confusion not apply damage to auto attacks, heal and cleanse skills. Cause you really can't even cleave down clones when you have confusion. And you can't even wait it out cause then you end up with more stacks of confusion.3) I would give mantras a 0.1 sec cast time.4) I would make greatsword 2 Blockable.

1. So nerf the whole class because of one elite spec and basically take the class mechanic off the table if you'd like to run torch or any stealth skill (we only have 3 good ones). Not a good fix.
2. I can see on cleanse skills maybe, confusion is supposed to discourage blindly using auto attacks or other skills so no, it has to stay those.
3. Do you mean to prevent the one power shatter combo? You just said classes have 90%+ uptime stability.
4. It's dodgeable and slow.

1) Yeah, I do think the entire class should have to choose between stealth and clones. It's a meaningful decision. People can choose whichever suits their playstyle best. Having both in combination is too strong. (btw, I main mes and I ONLY play mes). This is a fair change in my strong opinion. It would require a rework, which i think is doable for the next xpac.

2) I don't think spamming auto attacks should be punished. I think spamming all the other skills without thought should be punished. Auto attacks are called "auto" for a reason.

3) Yeah, I do think this will be a good direction to breaking up that one shot burst combo. And classes with high stability uptime needs to be balanced better. The game overall needs a new balance team that will make significant changes across the board. The next xpac would be a good time for it.

4) Mesmer doesn't need unblockable attacks. We can have clones remove aegis before we even attack. Also, summoning phantasms does a pre strike that can use the block before the phantasm attacks. I don't think mesmer should have any unblockable attacks. that's just my strong opinion on what's fair gameplay.

[Curunen.8729]

Mirage Thrust is more powerful than anything on axe/staff, and on that note I see far more mesmers running sword in wvw than I see with axe, whether they're power, condi or hybrid builds, due to the utility that sword provides from the ambush to ileap/swap (yes the nerf to ileap is a problem in larger fights when the clone dies and I think this should be buffed so the clone is harder to kill than breathing on it) and the still very good blurred frenzy. The boonstrip on 3rd auto while majority of the time completely impractical (ie this could be improved maybe by speeding up the animations of the auto chain), is still additional utility.

Also on that note I've been seeing more power mesmers in wvw than condi anyway.

Axe is a damage applier with little to zero utility aside from the (minor inconvenience) detarget/evade that's necessary to make it work, being a melee weapon with short range ambush. If it doesn't deal enough damage or apply enough condi then it'll be kind of useless - ie, how many scepter users do you see (another weapon designed mainly for damage with little utility) aside from dedicated players such as eldenbri on here who enjoy it enough to make it work for them.

The main benefit of axe is the cleave/aoe - which in today's state of the game is useful to have. Though axe 3 is still a single target burst attack, which many good players I see are often able to dodge/block or otherwise avoid.

If built right mirage likely has access to the some of the best condi cleanse in the game, through things like Elusive Mind, Mantra of Resolve, Jaunt, and if you want to go overkill then Inspiration with Sympathetic Visage and Restorative Illusions. Even just having Elusive Mind and Mantra is sufficient. Can add cleansing sigils to that, prestige if using torch, or a choice of disenchanter, traited arcane thievery (because it's bad without the trait and needs a cooldown reduction), null field - though none of these are necessary if using the various traits and mantra. Nevermind distortion being buffed to ignore condi ticks (on that note chrono with traited signets could be an interesting weird build) - could take signet of illusions on mirage (cover cast the signet) with deceptive evasion and maybe self deception to pop out quick clones in order to have back to back F4 if necessary for a good time of pseudo-resistance.

Axe is a strong weapon, and I think still somewhat undervalued given I see more sword users than axe users, however it's on par with Sword in terms of overall effectiveness, just having different strengths and different weaknesses. I don't think it needs any nerfs, not unless those nerfs were compensated by a buff in its utility - and I think potentially that could become more dangerous.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Scar.1793 said:Ok so if I see a mesmer and I’m on my own I will alt-f4 or leave the wvw map. Sounds like one hell of a way to play.

This differ from other builds you cant beat?

My favorite pet peeve is meeting that random minstrel firebrand thats away from the zerg but knows what he is doing so he is practically immortal while cycling everything bunker imagineable.

What am I supposed to do, like... Run somewhere else? But I cant do that! I'm a mirage, I dont know how not to fight aimlesslesly.

[Vague Memory.2817]

@Straegen.2938 said:Mesmer has been ridiculously strong since launch. There was a short span of time that the Mesmer wasn't king of the small scale hill 4ish years ago but that was about it. Mesmer variants have often been the single most dominant roamers multiple times throughout WvW history. At one point, even thieves stopped running because Mesmer was just as fast, far more of a bunker and the blow up was insane even by todays standards.

Were you playing GW1 per chance, because I've been playing Mes from the start (in GW2) and you are talking absolute ****. Just because the new forum website doesn't have any of the old posts, it doesn't mean you can rewrite history on a whim or to indulge your fantasies.

[Scar.1793]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Scar.1793 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Scar.1793 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:So ; first time i really play Pvp. First season . first 10 matches - > instant gold 2.

50% of enemy attack my clones , while i stand next to them.30% of enemys attack the air after i bombed 20 stacks confusion on them.20% of enemys know how to play the game.

Most ppl just faceroll the keyboards. They have no single idea what happens on the battlefield. Reaction time etc is very low. They don't even know how to play the Gamemode. Those are the people who complain about any class. You will probably see posts about guards doin too much burn , thiefs for posion, necro on torment, ele and holo doin too much direct dmg ...whatever.

Try dodge, cleanse, disengage , +1 .....

Okay what happens if the class has no proper escape tools or cleanse ? Mesmer can chase you easily and reapply the conditions.

Putting the blame on people being bad is a classic.

Curiosity.What class has no access to escape or cleanses

Seriously just try the classes in the mists and you’ll know.You should take your own advice..

For the record. There is no class in this game that doesn't have access to one of the things you listed.Maybe next time try not making broad statements that are untrue, and could be easily verified as such.

Get serious pls.

Give me a class besides thief that has offensive gap closers and real escape tools (not a defensive skill with 500-600 range just to be chased and hit 2 seconds later) and similar skills with one spec :

Blink - tp anywhere within 1200 range. Break stuns.

Illusionary ambush - 1200 gap closer with mirage cloak 1sec of evades. Breaks enemy targeting.

Mirage advance - aoe blind, 900 range tp to targetMirage retreat - return to starting point, breaks targeting and creates a clone

No doubt I missed others as I don’t want to bother at this point. To give you some matter to compare, a warrior has rush to disengage (greatsword 5, 1200 range but it has travel time, no tp so subject to immob and cc), whirlwind (450 range, 3/4sec evade). And they are melee.

Please explain to me without pulling the people are bad/other classes are not balanced as mirage.

I’m curious

[Dawdler.8521]

@Scar.1793 said:Give me a class besides thief that has offensive gap closers and real escape tools (not a defensive skill with 500-600 range just to be chased and hit 2 seconds later) and similar skills with one spec :

Blink - tp anywhere within 1200 range. Break stuns.

Illusionary ambush - 1200 gap closer with mirage cloak 1sec of evades. Breaks enemy targeting.

Mirage advance - aoe blind, 900 range tp to targetMirage retreat - return to starting point, breaks targeting and creates a clone

There are no other specs except OP mirage that can use 4 utility skills at once. Its cool that way.

[Daishi.6027]

I love the "Was super strong since launch" narrative people keep pushing, when most of those people don't seem to realize how easy core mes was to shut down if you employ a little bit of patience, where after everyone learnt to do so, it was replaced in slot by thief to the point where top mes mains swapped to thief for tournaments, and was only relevant because of portal.

Yeah it felt strong at launch but that's because the class is a "noob stomper" that kills bads really easily. Which ya know, usually everyone is pretty bad at launch.

@Scar.1793 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:So ; first time i really play Pvp. First season . first 10 matches - > instant gold 2.

50% of enemy attack my clones , while i stand next to them.30% of enemys attack the air after i bombed 20 stacks confusion on them.20% of enemys know how to play the game.

Most ppl just faceroll the keyboards. They have no single idea what happens on the battlefield. Reaction time etc is very low. They don't even know how to play the Gamemode. Those are the people who complain about any class. You will probably see posts about guards doin too much burn , thiefs for posion, necro on torment, ele and holo doin too much direct dmg ...whatever.

Try dodge, cleanse, disengage , +1 .....

Okay what happens if the class has no proper escape tools or cleanse ? Mesmer can chase you easily and reapply the conditions.

Putting the blame on people being bad is a classic.

It's accurate though, it's not that hard to just wait and doge the burst. I've killed condi mirages on rangers, thieves, and power mirage with little to no cleanse. These aren't just random scrubs either we're talking top 10 ranked people, at least two separate with Demigod tittle. Take that as you will with match manipulation being a thing but regardless; reading your opponent and avoiding getting hit is much stronger than relying on the cleanse. This may be easier for me since I have intimate knowledge of mesmer, but you should be expected to know what your enemy can and can't do if you have any desire to win. The game shouldn't nerf for the people who are not willing to put in that effort, you are expected to meet the standards not have them lowered for you. That is just a factor of life, but even more so in combat IRL or in game.

Sure every now and then it lands or a part of it lands and I get more confusion than I'd like and the one clear (if I have it) doesn't remove the right thing, but oh well that is part of the game and an issue with condi more so than it is mirage.

Now you may argue that reading your opponent is not a realistic expectation, but mechanics across the entire game would argue otherwise from guards and thieves hitting you through walls, to baiting warriors.

@Scar.1793 said:Give me a class besides thief that has offensive gap closers and real escape tools (not a defensive skill with 500-600 range just to be chased and hit 2 seconds later) and similar skills with one spec :

Blink - tp anywhere within 1200 range. Break stuns.

Illusionary ambush - 1200 gap closer with mirage cloak 1sec of evades. Breaks enemy targeting.

Mirage advance - aoe blind, 900 range tp to targetMirage retreat - return to starting point, breaks targeting and creates a clone

No doubt I missed others as I don’t want to bother at this point. To give you some matter to compare, a warrior has rush to disengage (greatsword 5, 1200 range but it has travel time, no tp so subject to immob and cc), whirlwind (450 range, 3/4sec evade). And they are melee.

Please explain to me without pulling the people are bad/other classes are not balanced as mirage.

I’m curious

Ranger? Guard? Rev? If we are just counting ports Ele? If we're counting skills no one uses (you mentioned mirage advance so I'm guessing we are) Necro?

Portal is kind of a mandatory option unless you are just playing selfishly and as pointed out before was the crux of mesmer's viability for years.So you get 2 more, people usually have blink so 1 more, and rarely is it illusionary ambush since there are more optimal things you can slot.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Scar.1793 said:Give me a class besides thief that has offensive gap closers and real escape tools (not a defensive skill with 500-600 range just to be chased and hit 2 seconds later) and similar skills with one spec :

Blink - tp anywhere within 1200 range. Break stuns.

Illusionary ambush - 1200 gap closer with mirage cloak 1sec of evades. Breaks enemy targeting.

Mirage advance - aoe blind, 900 range tp to targetMirage retreat - return to starting point, breaks targeting and creates a clone

There are no other specs except OP mirage that can use 4 utility skills at once. Its cool that way.

Retreat is a flip over skill from Advance, although he failed to mention it's terribly obvious cast time.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:There are some overtuned builds across a few classes. Condi axe/staff mirage is definitely one of them. The amount of conditions one can apply in a certain time frame really needs to be looked at. It's a bit outrageous.

I agree that one of the issues with mirage is locking them down. However, I think that's more due to stealth in combination with clone spams and retargetting skills. I don't think elusive mine is the issue. There are classes that can pretty much keep up 90%+ uptime on stability, making them practically perma immune to CC. I would say that trumps the ability to break CC on dodge. Cause to not even have to worry about being CCed ever is very very strong.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't take Elusive Mind for the stun break. As a matter of fact, I would still take the trait even if it didn't have a stunbreak. The condition clear is the reason it is taken. With this condi meta, you always need more clears. And even still, I find myself not having enough when dealing with condi mirages and I have to use runes of lyssa to help out.

I don't think anyone can rationally say condi axe/staff mirage is a fair build. It's ridiculously overtuned for pvp. However, the issue lies in that everyone disagrees in why it being so balanced, and then you have the camp that feels their pvp triumphs are being undermined by admitting the build is too strong. I think it's the combination of easy to repeat extreme condi burst, stealth, retargetting skills (ax3 and amubush). I really don't think Elusive Mind is the issue at all.

So if it were me, this is how I would balance the issue, or what I think the issue is I should say:1) I do think mirage has too many escapes. So I would make all mesmers have to choose between having clones and having stealth. I really think it's too strong having both in combination.2) I would make confusion not apply damage to auto attacks, heal and cleanse skills. Cause you really can't even cleave down clones when you have confusion. And you can't even wait it out cause then you end up with more stacks of confusion.3) I would give mantras a 0.1 sec cast time.4) I would make greatsword 2 Blockable.

1. So nerf the whole class because of one elite spec and basically take the class mechanic off the table if you'd like to run torch or any stealth skill (we only have 3 good ones). Not a good fix.
2. I can see on cleanse skills maybe, confusion is supposed to discourage blindly using auto attacks or other skills so no, it has to stay those.
3. Do you mean to prevent the one power shatter combo? You just said classes have 90%+ uptime stability.
4. It's dodgeable and slow.

1) Yeah, I do think the entire class should have to choose between stealth and clones. It's a meaningful decision. People can choose whichever suits their playstyle best. Having both in combination is too strong. (btw, I main mes and I ONLY play mes). This is a fair change in my strong opinion. It would require a rework, which i think is doable for the next xpac.

2) I don't think spamming auto attacks should be punished. I think spamming all the other skills without thought should be punished. Auto attacks are called "auto" for a reason.

3) Yeah, I do think this will be a good direction to breaking up that one shot burst combo. And classes with high stability uptime needs to be balanced better. The game overall needs a new balance team that will make significant changes across the board. The next xpac would be a good time for it.

4) Mesmer doesn't need unblockable attacks. We can have clones remove aegis before we even attack. Also, summoning phantasms does a pre strike that can use the block before the phantasm attacks. I don't think mesmer should have any unblockable attacks. that's just my strong opinion on what's fair gameplay.

1. So should Thieves have to choose between stealth and initiative? Clones are not difficult to fight, they haven't been, quit feeding into the delusion that they're anything more than shatter fodder.
2. So mindlessly spamming auto attacks should be rewarded, even when afflicted with a condition designed to punish that sort of play. That logic makes sense to you?
3. 0.1 cast time wouldn't help anything logically because that's beyond even above average human reflex time
4. By that logic no class 'needs' an unblockable attack because they can remove aegis with auto attacks.

[Hot Boy.7138]

1) why are you bringing up thieves?

2) Yeah, it makes sense to me.

3) The cast time isn't so it can be interrupted.

4) if that's how you feel.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Hot Boy.7138 said:1) why are you bringing up thieves?

2) Yeah, it makes sense to me.

3) The cast time isn't so it can be interrupted.

4) if that's how you feel.

1. Because you think the 8 good seconds of stealth we have is totally worth trading off the entire class mechanic.
2. Lol, k.
3. Then what on earth is it even for?
4. It's not how I feel it's basically what you said extrapolated.

[Hot Boy.7138]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:1) why are you bringing up thieves?

2) Yeah, it makes sense to me.

3) The cast time isn't so it can be interrupted.

4) if that's how you feel.

1. Because you think the 8 good seconds of stealth we have is totally worth trading off the entire class mechanic.
2. Lol, k.
3. Then what on earth is it even for?
4. It's not how I feel it's basically what you said extrapolated.

From the tone of your message, you seem pretty worked up. I just want to say that this is just my opinion on what the real issue is with mesmer, and my opinions on how to fix these issues. I'm not a dev. I don't have the power to make these changes. I do hope they agree with my suggestions and implement them. But save your rage, please. As I said in my initial post, everyone has a different idea about what the issues with mesmer is and how to fix it. These are my solutions. They make sense to me and my mind can't be changed, especially with angry undertones.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:1) why are you bringing up thieves?

2) Yeah, it makes sense to me.

3) The cast time isn't so it can be interrupted.

4) if that's how you feel.

1. Because you think the 8 good seconds of stealth we have is totally worth trading off the entire class mechanic.
2. Lol, k.
3. Then what on earth is it even for?
4. It's not how I feel it's basically what you said extrapolated.

From the tone of your message, you seem pretty worked up. I just want to say that this is just my opinion on what the real issue is with mesmer, and my opinions on how to fix these issues. I'm not a dev. I don't have the power to make these changes. I do hope they agree with my suggestions and implement them. But save your rage, please. As I said in my initial post, everyone has a different idea about what the issues with mesmer is and how to fix it. These are my solutions. They make sense to me and my mind can't be changed, especially with angry undertones.

I'm more incredulous than angry.

[Solori.6025]

@"Daishi.6027" said:I love the "Was super strong since launch" narrative people keep pushing, when most of those people don't seem to realize how easy core mes was to shut down if you employ a little bit of patience, where after everyone learnt to do so, it was replaced in slot by thief to the point where top mes mains swapped to thief for tournaments, and was only relevant because of portal.

Yeah it felt strong at launch but that's because the class is a "noob stomper" that kills bads really easily. Which ya know, usually everyone is pretty bad at launch.

@Scar.1793 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:So ; first time i really play Pvp. First season . first 10 matches - > instant gold 2.

50% of enemy attack my clones , while i stand next to them.30% of enemys attack the air after i bombed 20 stacks confusion on them.20% of enemys know how to play the game.

Most ppl just faceroll the keyboards. They have no single idea what happens on the battlefield. Reaction time etc is very low. They don't even know how to play the Gamemode. Those are the people who complain about any class. You will probably see posts about guards doin too much burn , thiefs for posion, necro on torment, ele and holo doin too much direct dmg ...whatever.

Try dodge, cleanse, disengage , +1 .....

Okay what happens if the class has no proper escape tools or cleanse ? Mesmer can chase you easily and reapply the conditions.

Putting the blame on people being bad is a classic.

It's accurate though, it's not that hard to just wait and doge the burst. I've killed condi mirages on rangers, thieves, and power mirage with little to no cleanse. These aren't just random scrubs either we're talking top 10 ranked people, at least two separate with Demigod tittle. Take that as you will with match manipulation being a thing but regardless; reading your opponent and avoiding getting hit is much stronger than relying on the cleanse. This may be easier for me since I have intimate knowledge of mesmer, but you should be expected to know what your enemy can and can't do if you have any desire to win. The game shouldn't nerf for the people who are not willing to put in that effort, you are expected to meet the standards not have them lowered for you. That is just a factor of life, but even more so in combat IRL or in game.

Sure every now and then it lands or a part of it lands and I get more confusion than I'd like and the one clear (if I have it) doesn't remove the right thing, but oh well that is part of the game and an issue with condi more so than it is mirage.

Now you may argue that reading your opponent is not a realistic expectation, but mechanics across the entire game would argue otherwise from guards and thieves hitting you through walls, to baiting warriors.

@Scar.1793 said:Give me a class besides thief that has offensive gap closers and real escape tools (not a defensive skill with 500-600 range just to be chased and hit 2 seconds later) and similar skills with one spec :

Blink - tp anywhere within 1200 range. Break stuns.

Illusionary ambush - 1200 gap closer with mirage cloak 1sec of evades. Breaks enemy targeting.

Mirage advance - aoe blind, 900 range tp to targetMirage retreat - return to starting point, breaks targeting and creates a clone

No doubt I missed others as I don’t want to bother at this point. To give you some matter to compare, a warrior has rush to disengage (greatsword 5, 1200 range but it has travel time, no tp so subject to immob and cc), whirlwind (450 range, 3/4sec evade). And they are melee.

Please explain to me without pulling the people are bad/other classes are not balanced as mirage.

I’m curious

Ranger? Guard? Rev? If we are just counting ports Ele? If we're counting skills no one uses (you mentioned mirage advance so I'm guessing we are) Necro?

Portal is kind of a mandatory option unless you are just playing selfishly and as pointed out before was the crux of mesmer's viability for years.So you get 2 more, people usually have blink so 1 more, and rarely is it illusionary ambush since there are more optimal things you can slot.

Thank you Daishi. I'm still waiting on the wiki warrior to answer my first question.