why has necro still not been buffed

DragonFury.6243 · August 26, 2018

@Dace.8173 said:
@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Catchyfx.5768 said:It's funny, here people want fix bugged skills that Are Pure RNG. In other proffesions sections Ppl cry fór moar dmg And buffs and actually they get it ? And we get nerfies. Give IT 5 years they change it

That makes no sense ... other classes get nerfs to ... I'm pretty sure Ele's didn't ask for the nerfs they got. Necro's are not special here. Anet buffs and nerfs things on a class and it's not related to what other classes get for nerfs or buffs either.

Nice compare between ele and necro !!!ele been the in top 3 dps for as long as i remember he had it comingbut when the necro ever got any dps to be competitive in PvE

Ele's overall position on the power scale doesn't nullify the point that @Obtena.7952 was making. They were specifically speaking about the claim that other professions cry for buffs and gets them while Necromancer cries for buffs and gets nerfs. It isn't a true statement and the Elementalist is a perfect example due to how recently the last nerf was. That isn't to say that Elementalist and Necromancer are in the same boat in regards to overall power. It just means that you can't claim that you're the only guys that get unwanted nerfs. Everyone suffers through unwanted nerfs. It doesn't mean Necromancers aren't wrong in calling for buffs though. Just means you have to stop acting like you're the only profession bad things happen to.

as a necrothat make no sense to us why we get nerf in PvE when we were at the very end of the benchmarks

Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean that Necromancer is the only profession to suffer from unwanted nerfs. The problem with trying to make sense of it is that ultimately, you don't have access to all the data they have when it came to deciding to make a nerf. If we had access to the exact same information it may make sense. But we don't so there is not much that can be done about it. A lot of things don't make sense when you don't get to see the full picture. :(

we already know from where they get there data

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:
Our process for deciding what is priority tends to be a mixture and we check all sorts of different areas. Analytics (per game mode), build sites, benchmarks, and incoming communication from players from all sources are some of the information points we gather.and from this data can you tell me where and when the necro needed all that nerf in PvE ?dont tell me the nerf just happened cuz all professions to become equal when the only competitive build for necro in PvE is the condi scourge and guess what they did !!!

Dace.8173 · August 26, 2018

@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Catchyfx.5768 said:It's funny, here people want fix bugged skills that Are Pure RNG. In other proffesions sections Ppl cry fór moar dmg And buffs and actually they get it ? And we get nerfies. Give IT 5 years they change it

That makes no sense ... other classes get nerfs to ... I'm pretty sure Ele's didn't ask for the nerfs they got. Necro's are not special here. Anet buffs and nerfs things on a class and it's not related to what other classes get for nerfs or buffs either.

Nice compare between ele and necro !!!ele been the in top 3 dps for as long as i remember he had it comingbut when the necro ever got any dps to be competitive in PvE

Ele's overall position on the power scale doesn't nullify the point that @Obtena.7952 was making. They were specifically speaking about the claim that other professions cry for buffs and gets them while Necromancer cries for buffs and gets nerfs. It isn't a true statement and the Elementalist is a perfect example due to how recently the last nerf was. That isn't to say that Elementalist and Necromancer are in the same boat in regards to overall power. It just means that you can't claim that you're the only guys that get unwanted nerfs. Everyone suffers through unwanted nerfs. It doesn't mean Necromancers aren't wrong in calling for buffs though. Just means you have to stop acting like you're the only profession bad things happen to.

as a necrothat make no sense to us why we get nerf in PvE when we were at the very end of the benchmarks

Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean that Necromancer is the only profession to suffer from unwanted nerfs. The problem with trying to make sense of it is that ultimately, you don't have access to all the data they have when it came to deciding to make a nerf. If we had access to the exact same information it may make sense. But we don't so there is not much that can be done about it. A lot of things don't make sense when you don't get to see the full picture. :(

we already know from where they get there data

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:
Our process for deciding what is priority tends to be a mixture and we check all sorts of different areas. Analytics (per game mode), build sites, benchmarks, and incoming communication from players from all sources are some of the information points we gather.and from this data can you tell me where and when the necro needed all that nerf in PvE ?dont tell me the nerf just happened cuz all professions to become equal when the only competitive build for necro in PvE is the condi scourge and guess what they did !!!

Well, actually we don't. What you quote is just him mentioning some, though not all, of what they use as data. Based on his reply ANet clearly collects data from multiple sources and we can only guess what all their sources are. Which is kinda moot, I said that we do not have access to all the data they have, not that we don't know what they use as data. Without being able to see what all their data is for ourselves we have no real way to figure out the logic they used. I wish they would release information like that as it would be very enlightening but they are likely never going to do that.

Honestly, trying to make sense of it is pointless. Without all the data they have access to that leads to any given buff or nerf you're just going to drive yourself batty trying to figure it out. Better to focus your energy on lobbying ANet for buffs that would help improve Necromancer. Since fan feedback is something they look at when they make such decisions it is your best option for getting what you want.

Obtena.7952 · August 26, 2018

@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Catchyfx.5768 said:It's funny, here people want fix bugged skills that Are Pure RNG. In other proffesions sections Ppl cry fór moar dmg And buffs and actually they get it ? And we get nerfies. Give IT 5 years they change it

That makes no sense ... other classes get nerfs to ... I'm pretty sure Ele's didn't ask for the nerfs they got. Necro's are not special here. Anet buffs and nerfs things on a class and it's not related to what other classes get for nerfs or buffs either.

Nice compare between ele and necro !!!ele been the in top 3 dps for as long as i remember he had it comingbut when the necro ever got any dps to be competitive in PvE

Ele's overall position on the power scale doesn't nullify the point that @Obtena.7952 was making. They were specifically speaking about the claim that other professions cry for buffs and gets them while Necromancer cries for buffs and gets nerfs. It isn't a true statement and the Elementalist is a perfect example due to how recently the last nerf was. That isn't to say that Elementalist and Necromancer are in the same boat in regards to overall power. It just means that you can't claim that you're the only guys that get unwanted nerfs. Everyone suffers through unwanted nerfs. It doesn't mean Necromancers aren't wrong in calling for buffs though. Just means you have to stop acting like you're the only profession bad things happen to.

as a necrothat make no sense to us why we get nerf in PvE when we were at the very end of the benchmarks

Why does that make no sense? What gives you any impression of how Anet uses those benchmarks to balance classes ... or if that benchmark is used at all for balance? Did you see any hint of how the benchmarks affect balance

are you new here or you have no idea how ANET balance team work

No, I got a really good idea of how they work because Anet explained it the link I posted on Herald rework ... and I have no reason to ignore it or not believe it. How could anyone get a better idea of how Anet does class balance than being told how it's done directly from Anet? You don't make sense here.

Dace makes my further points for me: That stuff you posted from Karl doesn't refute what I said at all. In fact, it supports the common sense approach that they use data to balance (I never claimed they didn't) ... it doesn't say how they use the data or contradict the link I posted here. No one could ever know how it's specifically used unless directly told by Anet. They haven't done that yet.

What I find ironic about your thread is that you say you don't understand Anet's balancing, but your trying really hard to show you understand balance better than Anet does by arguing with people about some semantic points using vague examples of what data Anet uses (and not how they use it) and ignoring how the link illustrates balance. .. so it seems to me, as I suspected, you just don't like how it's being done and ignoring the link is simply convenient for you.

If people think random complaints, ignoring Anet's balance approach and waiting for whatever changes Anet throws us is an effective strategy to get something better for Necro, then I can see why this is the best kind of thread most people can muster. Anet has handed us a roadmap for class balance; you are ignoring it.

DragonFury.6243 · August 26, 2018

@Obtena.7952 said:
No, I got a really good idea of how they work because Anet explained it the link I posted on Herald rework ... and I have no reason to ignore it or not believe it. How could anyone get a better idea of how Anet does class balance than being told how it's done directly from Anet? You don't make sense here.this is necro forum not herald i thought you hated comparison between professions . You don't make sense hereDace makes my further points for me: That stuff you posted from Karl doesn't refute what I said at all. In fact, it supports the common sense approach that they use data to balance (I never claimed they didn't) ... it doesn't say how they use the data or contradict the link I posted here. No one could ever know how it's specifically used unless directly told by Anet. They haven't done that yet.you didnt know that they use benchmark as balance data because said this@Obtena.7952 said:Why does that make no sense? What gives you any impression of how Anet uses those benchmarks to balance classes ... or if that benchmark is used at all for balance? Did you see any hint of how the benchmarks affect balance that in the recent teaser for Herald?
What I find ironic about your thread is that you say you don't understand Anet's balancing, but your trying really hard to show you understand balance better than Anet does by arguing with people about some semantic points using vague examples of what data Anet uses (and not how they use it) and ignoring how the link illustrates balance. .. so it seems to me, as I suspected, you just don't like how it's being done and ignoring the link is simply convenient for you.
what "vague example" its a direct quote from the system team .you don't make sense hereof course i dont understand ANET balance ;
0.5 sec delay on all scourge F skills
Dhuumfire the 1 second icd
Nefarious Favor 1 condi convert instead of 2all those change just carried from pvp and wvw to pve which make no sense because we have skill split .

Dadnir.5038 · August 26, 2018

@"DragonFury.6243" said:what "vague example" its a direct quote from the system team .you don't make sense hereof course i dont understand ANET balance ;
0.5 sec delay on all scourge F skills
Dhuumfire the 1 second icd
Nefarious Favor 1 condi convert instead of 2all those change just carried from pvp and wvw to pve which make no sense because we have skill split .

There is nothing to understand, they tried to gradually decrease the issues perceived by the users without digging into what was the core of the issue. It's the exact same things that happened years ago when they first implemented dhuumfire. They decrease all the bleed and poison applications, nerfed terror, increased unrelated skills cool down and in the end, seeing that the result wasn't satisfying they ended up modifying dhuumfire in such a way that it's impact was nonexistent. Yet everything else was doomed. And this is just a single example amongst tens if not hundreds.

The reaper proved that traits on Shrd#1 easily varied in power and performance and thus might be dangerous based on the specs that they deliver. They probably should have thought of modifying dhuumfire in such a way that it didn't interact in such a way with shrd#1 but no, they chose to make numbers adjustement until they released scourge. Then thanks to the conjunction of dhuumfire bad mechanism with the manifest sand shade proc horrendous mechanism on scourge's shroud skills they created unimaginable condi burst. Again, they chose to address numbers before mechanisms and when they touched the mechanisms they didn't make wise move but instead chose a very peculiar way (and unique to the necromancer) to introduce their "number" change.

So, must likely they will continue to make these "improper" change until they find themself forced to make things useless... Wait isn't it already the case?

Edit: So no, no buff until dangerous mechanisms are deemed balanced and even after that they won't buff due to fear of breaking things due to those dangerous mechanism that they should rework but don't because it's better to make number changes.

DragonFury.6243 · August 26, 2018

@Dadnir.5038 said:
@"DragonFury.6243" said:what "vague example" its a direct quote from the system team .you don't make sense hereof course i dont understand ANET balance ;
0.5 sec delay on all scourge F skills
Dhuumfire
the 1 second icd
Nefarious Favor
1 condi convert instead of 2all those change just carried from pvp and wvw to pve which make no sense because we have skill split .

There is nothing to understand, they tried to gradually decrease the issues perceived by the users without digging into what was the core of the issue. It's the exact same things that happened years ago when they first implemented dhuumfire. They decrease all the bleed and poison applications, nerfed terror, increased unrelated skills cool down and in the end, seeing that the result wasn't satisfying they ended up modifying dhuumfire in such a way that it's impact was nonexistent. Yet everything else was doomed. And this is just a single example amongst tens if not hundreds.

The reaper proved that traits on Shrd#1 easily varied in power and performance and thus might be dangerous based on the specs that they deliver. They probably should have thought of modifying dhuumfire in such a way that it didn't interact in such a way with shrd#1 but no, they chose to make numbers adjustement until they released scourge. Then thanks to the conjunction of dhuumfire bad mechanism with the manifest sand shade proc horrendous mechanism on scourge's shroud skills they created unimaginable condi burst. Again, they chose to address numbers before mechanisms and when they touched the mechanisms they didn't make wise move but instead chose a very peculiar way (and unique to the necromancer) to introduce their "number" change.

So, must likely they will continue to make these "improper" change until they find themself forced to make things useless... Wait isn't it already the case?

Edit: So no, no buff until dangerous mechanisms are deemed balanced and even after that they won't buff due to fear of breaking things due to those dangerous mechanism that they should rework but don't because it's better to make number changes.

i agree with you on all that but the dhuumfire bad mechanism with the manifest sand shade proc horrendous mechanism on scourge's only in WvW and PvP but to carry that nerf to PvE is just ridiculous

we have split skill balance and yet they nerf scourge in all game mode

PCscourge at release was okish in competitive PvE but the nerf is just a big WHY !!!??

Dadnir.5038 · August 26, 2018

@DragonFury.6243 said:i agree with you on all that but the dhuumfire bad mechanism with the manifest sand shade proc horrendous mechanism on scourge's only in WvW and PvP but to carry that nerf to PvE is just ridiculous
we have split skill balance and yet they nerf scourge in all game mode
PCscourge at release was okish in competitive PvE but the nerf is just a big WHY !!!??

The nerf is just them not willing to change mechanisms between gamemode. So if the mechanism is bad in one or 2 gamemodes it has to be reworked in order for it to be good in all gamemode. And this is something that ANet didn't do. They only took into account PvP and WvW's need in their change, keeping what was inherently bad and adding a 2nd layer of bad mechanism on top of it.

We need to stop clinging on dangerous mechanism and these 2 mechanisms that I mentioned are 2 dangerous mechanisms that need to be changed. Dhuumfire being the worst since he is bound to impact all e-specs like he already did.

DragonFury.6243 · August 26, 2018

@Dadnir.5038 said:
@DragonFury.6243 said:i agree with you on all that but the dhuumfire bad mechanism with the manifest sand shade proc horrendous mechanism on scourge's only in WvW and PvP but to carry that nerf to PvE is just ridiculous
we have split skill balance and yet they nerf scourge in all game mode
PCscourge at release was okish in competitive PvE but the nerf is just a big WHY !!!??

The nerf is just them not willing to change mechanisms between gamemode. So if the mechanism is bad in one or 2 gamemodes it has to be reworked in order for it to be good in all gamemode. And this is something that ANet didn't do. They only took into account PvP and WvW's need in their change, keeping what was inherently bad and adding a 2nd layer of bad mechanism on top of it.

We need to stop clinging on dangerous mechanism and these 2 mechanisms that I mentioned are 2 dangerous mechanisms that need to be changed. Dhuumfire being the worst since he is bound to impact all e-specs like he already did.

feelsbadmancondi mesmer and scourge have the most unfun mechanic in competitive mode which is spam your F skills until your opponent kill himself

i really hope they star to fix these otherwise there will be no fun in the game at all

Asum.4960 · August 27, 2018

@Dace.8173 said:
@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Catchyfx.5768 said:It's funny, here people want fix bugged skills that Are Pure RNG. In other proffesions sections Ppl cry fór moar dmg And buffs and actually they get it ? And we get nerfies. Give IT 5 years they change it

That makes no sense ... other classes get nerfs to ... I'm pretty sure Ele's didn't ask for the nerfs they got. Necro's are not special here. Anet buffs and nerfs things on a class and it's not related to what other classes get for nerfs or buffs either.

Nice compare between ele and necro !!!ele been the in top 3 dps for as long as i remember he had it comingbut when the necro ever got any dps to be competitive in PvE

Ele's overall position on the power scale doesn't nullify the point that @Obtena.7952 was making. They were specifically speaking about the claim that other professions cry for buffs and gets them while Necromancer cries for buffs and gets nerfs. It isn't a true statement and the Elementalist is a perfect example due to how recently the last nerf was. That isn't to say that Elementalist and Necromancer are in the same boat in regards to overall power. It just means that you can't claim that you're the only guys that get unwanted nerfs. Everyone suffers through unwanted nerfs. It doesn't mean Necromancers aren't wrong in calling for buffs though. Just means you have to stop acting like you're the only profession bad things happen to.

as a necrothat make no sense to us why we get nerf in PvE when we were at the very end of the benchmarks

Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean that Necromancer is the only profession to suffer from unwanted nerfs. The problem with trying to make sense of it is that ultimately, you don't have access to all the data they have when it came to deciding to make a nerf. If we had access to the exact same information it may make sense. But we don't so there is not much that can be done about it. A lot of things don't make sense when you don't get to see the full picture. :(

I think nerfs are generally unwanted (for the affected players), but there is a stark difference when they hit a profession that is so far ahead in terms of DPS of every other profession in the game for years, that there is a trend developing that makes it out as the only viable DPS in the game, being stacked in almost every group with 2 Eles in every fast clear Fractal group, and 5-6 Eles in every raid group, to when they over and over again hit a profession that is so far behind in DPS of every other profession in the game for years that there is a trend already developed that makes it out as completely useless profession (which I don't agree with, but can also see where it's coming from).

When you haven't seen an entire particular profession for months, if not years in doing endgame content daily/weekly, and it get's nerfed almost every patch still, it does feel slightly off, no?

After the nerfs Ele is still very much so useable on most and in fact optimal on some encounters, due to it's burst capabilities and scaling with hitboxes.Necromancer, aside from unintended behaviour like Epi bouncing, has almost never been used for reasons of efficacy, but in spite of being bad due to passion for the class by the player to the detriment of the group.

So no, I don't think the very much so wanted and warranted Ele nerfs compare to Necro nerfs, and I would love to see the data the latter are based on, because they might have been holding the benchmarks upside down or something.

DragonFury.6243 · August 27, 2018

@Asum.4960 said:So no, I don't think the very much so wanted and warranted Ele nerfs compare to Necro nerfs, and I would love to see the data the latter are based on, because they might have been holding the benchmarks upside down or something.lolmay be they are that explain a lot

Catchyfx.5768 · August 27, 2018

It's difficult to buff necro. I dont think necro can get much more DPS buffs maybe only for scourge. Thing is, in PvE it will be superclass. In PvE necro is really tanky even as glasscannon(in PvP its meh..) I think problem is core necro and shroud mechanic. Maybe some rework IDK. its hard to say what to do. If we could drop our tankiness in PvE on the same lvl as we are in PvP we actualy can get DPS buffs

Asum.4960 · August 27, 2018

@Catchyfx.5768 said:It's difficult to buff necro. I dont think necro can get much more DPS buffs maybe only for scourge. Thing is, in PvE it will be superclass. In PvE necro is really tanky even as glasscannon(in PvP its meh..) I think problem is core necro and shroud mechanic. Maybe some rework IDK. its hard to say what to do. If we could drop our tankiness in PvE on the same lvl as we are in PvP we actualy can get DPS buffs

That's the issue. People keep saying Necro can't have damage because of it's sustain and call it good game design, when it really isn't.When you look at Elementalist, you can decide to build it for sustain, and be leagues better at it than Necro ever will be. You can decide to build it for DPS, and be way better than Necro ever will be. You can build it as a healer and on and on.That's good design. There are choices to make with things to gain and lose.

No matter what you decide to specialise in as Necro, you will never be better than mediocre, and usually even worse than that.

The thing is, Scourge was supposed to be the solution to that. No more unnecessary Shroud Necro has to sacrifice damage for.But just because of some problematic design with Sand Savant in PvP and WvW, the entire spec got gutted in PvE. 10+ times.

Scourge was the opportunity to give Necro both a powerful DPS as well as Support spec.But by now, it has no damage, no Shroud, no boon support.. nothing really.

I really think the only use for Necro currently is as healer/rez bot for struggling Raid groups as second healer next to a Druid, and even there it struggles due to lacking boon support.

But even for Reaper and Core Necro with it's shroud, and regarding it being a superclass if it had appropriate damage - Warrior, especially Core and Spb can also easily outsustain even Reapers by far in PvE while running builds that still provide the same or higher damage, but more importantly, have the option to shed some of that sustain for more DPS. Infact, most classes are in that boat and can sacrifice their damage to be about as low as that of a Necro and be about as or even more tanky if you actually try.

The main problem with Necromancer and it's design continues to be lack of choice.It's either deal bad damage and have mediocre sustain, or deal horrible damage and have above average sustain. That's it.

Catchyfx.5768 · August 27, 2018

@Asum.4960 said:
@"Catchyfx.5768" said:The main problem with Necromancer and it's design continues to be lack of choice.It's either deal bad damage and have mediocre sustain, or deal horrible damage and have above average sustain. That's it.

This. No matter what build or stat you use. You will be always "the one who does a little bit of everything but nothing can't master"If you try go Tank in PvP you get outsustained by Marauder glasscannon classes. Healing maybe with scourge(thats why he gets bariers :) ), dmg no need to say anything.And Epi remove kills condi builds.

NOT EVEN mention that core necro is (in terms of PvE) LMAO NPC

Aeolus.3615 · August 27, 2018

@bara yaoi.3824 said:do the devs not just see this forum section where every thread is a complaint on necromancers status? im genuinely confused y they are still bad like wat is going on?? even in FFXIV, ignored classes like dark knight don't remain bad for this long of a period of time, like wut??? this is really confusing !!!! what is going on behind the scenes?

Buy Scourge but dont worry, u will have a stronger option in the next expantion.

Dadnir.5038 · August 27, 2018

@Asum.4960 said:The thing is, Scourge was supposed to be the solution to that. No more unnecessary Shroud Necro has to sacrifice damage for.But just because of some problematic design with Sand Savant in PvP and WvW, the entire spec got gutted in PvE. 10+ times.

Except the problem isn't sand savant and never was. The fondamental issue is that shade skills were spreading way to much punishment while still granting support and survivability. The issue wasn't the coverage of the shades but the fact that everything was put again on the shade skills.

The issue of the scourge was the manifest sand shade proc on each and every skills. Without it, shade skills wouldn't have been able to put 5 unique conditions on up to 10 foes with a very short cool down. Without it, the shade wouldn't have felt threatening to other players and could have been used for support.

A problem of damage? They could have worked on the traits, torch and utility skills to compensate.

Sure, the way shade skills activated without obvious tell or cast time would have still been a thorn on the side of most opposing players but this wouldn't have warranted half the nerfs scourge suffered. And certainly wouldn't have hurt PvE as much as it ended to satisfy PvP/WvW players.

Sand savant isn't a trait designed to spread the threat but to spread the support of the scourge, the problem is that the threat (due to the manifest sand shade proc) become oppressive with sand savant. Nothing more, nothing else. Blaming sand savant is just scratching the surface and hurting a trait for an issue caused by another mechanism. In the end removing this trait would just hurt the support even more and keep the underlying issue alive and kicking.

Aeolus.3615 · August 27, 2018

@Dadnir.5038 said:
@Asum.4960 said:The thing is, Scourge was supposed to be the solution to that. No more unnecessary Shroud Necro has to sacrifice damage for.But just because of some problematic design with Sand Savant in PvP and WvW, the entire spec got gutted in PvE. 10+ times.

Except the problem isn't

sand savant

and never was. The fondamental issue is that shade skills were spreading way to much punishment while still granting support and survivability. The issue wasn't the coverage of the shades but the fact that everything was put again on the shade skills.

The issue of the scourge was the

manifest sand shade

proc on each and every skills. Without it, shade skills wouldn't have been able to put 5 unique conditions on up to 10 foes with a very short cool down. Without it, the shade wouldn't have felt threatening to other players and could have been used for support.

A problem of damage? They could have worked on the traits, torch and utility skills to compensate.

Sure, the way shade skills activated without obvious tell or cast time would have still been a thorn on the side of most opposing players but this wouldn't have warranted half the nerfs scourge suffered. And certainly wouldn't have hurt PvE as much as it ended to satisfy PvP/WvW players.

Sand savant

isn't a trait designed to spread the threat but to spread the support of the scourge, the problem is that the threat (due to the manifest sand shade proc) become oppressive with

sand savant

. Nothing more, nothing else. Blaming

sand savant

is just scratching the surface and hurting a trait for an issue caused by another mechanism. In the end removing this trait would just hurt the support even more and keep the underlying issue alive and kicking.

For me Anet can remove the big aoe rings from scourge and class becomes kinda balanced, for their capability of defense and spambility they are covering way to much.

Aeolus.3615 · August 27, 2018

@Dadnir.5038 said:
@Asum.4960 said:The thing is, Scourge was supposed to be the solution to that. No more unnecessary Shroud Necro has to sacrifice damage for.But just because of some problematic design with Sand Savant in PvP and WvW, the entire spec got gutted in PvE. 10+ times.

Except the problem isn't

sand savant

and never was. The fondamental issue is that shade skills were spreading way to much punishment while still granting support and survivability. The issue wasn't the coverage of the shades but the fact that everything was put again on the shade skills.

The issue of the scourge was the

manifest sand shade

proc on each and every skills. Without it, shade skills wouldn't have been able to put 5 unique conditions on up to 10 foes with a very short cool down. Without it, the shade wouldn't have felt threatening to other players and could have been used for support.

A problem of damage? They could have worked on the traits, torch and utility skills to compensate.

Sure, the way shade skills activated without obvious tell or cast time would have still been a thorn on the side of most opposing players but this wouldn't have warranted half the nerfs scourge suffered. And certainly wouldn't have hurt PvE as much as it ended to satisfy PvP/WvW players.

Sand savant

isn't a trait designed to spread the threat but to spread the support of the scourge, the problem is that the threat (due to the manifest sand shade proc) become oppressive with

sand savant

. Nothing more, nothing else. Blaming

sand savant

is just scratching the surface and hurting a trait for an issue caused by another mechanism. In the end removing this trait would just hurt the support even more and keep the underlying issue alive and kicking.

For me Anet can remove the big aoe rings from scourge and class becomes kinda balanced, for their capability of defense and spambility they are covering way to much.The problem will still persist due Anet game design model where classes need to make players feel strong(the carry system), rather than be the player makeign class strong due personal skills.

Asum.4960 · August 27, 2018

@Dadnir.5038 said:
@"Asum.4960" said:The thing is, Scourge was supposed to be the solution to that. No more unnecessary Shroud Necro has to sacrifice damage for.But just because of some problematic design with Sand Savant in PvP and WvW, the entire spec got gutted in PvE. 10+ times.

Except the problem isn't

sand savant

and never was. The fondamental issue is that shade skills were spreading way to much punishment while still granting support and survivability. The issue wasn't the coverage of the shades but the fact that everything was put again on the shade skills.

The issue of the scourge was the

manifest sand shade

proc on each and every skills. Without it, shade skills wouldn't have been able to put 5 unique conditions on up to 10 foes with a very short cool down. Without it, the shade wouldn't have felt threatening to other players and could have been used for support.

A problem of damage? They could have worked on the traits, torch and utility skills to compensate.

Sure, the way shade skills activated without obvious tell or cast time would have still been a thorn on the side of most opposing players but this wouldn't have warranted half the nerfs scourge suffered. And certainly wouldn't have hurt PvE as much as it ended to satisfy PvP/WvW players.

Sand savant

isn't a trait designed to spread the threat but to spread the support of the scourge, the problem is that the threat (due to the manifest sand shade proc) become oppressive with

sand savant

. Nothing more, nothing else. Blaming

sand savant

is just scratching the surface and hurting a trait for an issue caused by another mechanism. In the end removing this trait would just hurt the support even more and keep the underlying issue alive and kicking.

Sand Savant compounded the issue, especially in WvW.I fully agree that way too much power was loaded onto the Shade skills to compensate for Necromancer's lacklustre core to make Scourge good, which obviously didn't work.

Without Manifest Sandshade Procs, Scourge would have been beyond useless in PvE even in Scourge's launch state though.Torch is already a strong weapon, probably Necro's strongest. Compensating for all of Necros lack of damage with Torch instead of the Shade skills would have meant Torch 4 would oneshot people in PvP, so probably not the best option with only two skills available.Some more damage could have been offloaded onto the utilities (although I still disagree with the fact that "Utility" skills are just becoming more weapons skills, instead of.. well, utility). Especially Serpent Siphon could have been replaced, since I still don't know a single player who knows what that skill is actually supposed to be used for, but I don't think that would have been good enough either.

ArenaNet just can't get around overhauling core Necro trait lines and weapons. Otherwise every future and existing Necro Elite Spec will either be laughably weak, or broken.They need to remove some power from the Elite Spec functions, and go over every Core Trait Line, Weapon and Utility skill and sprinkle buffs and reworks where necessary into everything.

I never called for the removal of Sand Savant either, as it is probably my favourite Scourge trait, to a point where I wish it was baseline with 3/4 of the current radius, keeping the reduced CD and having only 1 Shade at all times. I just said it's design ended up being problematic.Meanwhile Sand Savant could have been changed to remove the damaging effects from Manifest Sand Shade, while adding pulsing Fury application and a x% damage buff to allies standing in the Shade (or allies affected by Barrier) and increasing the target cap, giving Scourge a proper support function in order to compete with Druid.

But I guess just increasing CD's everywhere and slashing Traits in half, while completely destroying the feel and viability of the profession over time, is easier than coming up with creative solutions and redesigns for the balance team.I actually have sympathy for that, balance isn't easy. But Necromancer's state, for the duration it has been this bad, is just not excusable anymore.

Dadnir.5038 · August 27, 2018

@"Asum.4960" said:Without Manifest Sandshade Procs, Scourge would have been beyond useless in PvE even in Scourge's launch state though.

Well... PvE... I understand the concern behind your statement because whatever happen they designed support on this supposedly "support e-spec" that was way out of the PvE concern, but I think you underestimate a bit the scourge there. There is room into the traits to make them way betters and more fitting of what's needed in PvE. Let's be honest, dps traits are god awfull even if they are always taken. While fell beacon is okayish (mainly due to the lack of imagination behind it), sadistic searing is plain bad as a dps trait and demonic lore lack terribly of any real impact.

Let's be objective, dhuumfire alone dealt more damage on scourge than both sadistic searing and demonic lore did. Even right now dhuumfire still eclypse both trait in regard of damage done. It's no wonder players were taking sand savant as the go to trait when demonic lore is this bad. If demonic lore had been a trait that add more dps to sand shade alone on top of increasing torment's damage I believe scourge would have had a proper dps trait able to compete with sand savant. As for sadistic searing it could easily be something that directly buff the scourge's damage (be it condi or power)

Catchyfx.5768 · August 27, 2018

@Asum.4960 said:
@Dadnir.5038 said:
@Asum.4960 said:The thing is, Scourge was supposed to be the solution to that. No more unnecessary Shroud Necro has to sacrifice damage for.But just because of some problematic design with Sand Savant in PvP and WvW, the entire spec got gutted in PvE. 10+ times.

-For sure, Reaper and scourge are different league then Core Necro, If you look on Warrior Guardian, Ranger, Thief(Excepet core Rev(even in WvW is strong)),... almost everyprofesion have Core class same strong as Espec and Espec is just "different playstyle" and buff to certain area of core.

-We have minions so i dont get that "oversustained core necro"(Mainly i dont understand why HP pool(2x) is the tool, if we have minnions to tank, maybe for PvP,WvW butim not playing that long to know if they were used with success in early game).

-Another thing is our weapons arent that good(again except Especs weapons that are same good as others classes). All the good comes from our Special Class skills(dShroud rShroud Shades) and i think thats a problem. Cuz dShroud is reallyoutdated, Reaper ans Scourge works only because of this(storng Special class skills). Weapons aren't here for dmg but for "utility=suck LF from enemies to be after10seconds usefull again" . In terms of Scourge you can say its OK. It must be so hard to balance this things to 3 modes while in everymode it works differently. In PvEunkillable in PvP "where is my babysitter"(scourge is kinda better in surviving thanks to shades and utilities).

-If core and reaper was designed like scourge i think it could work. (you press F4 and you became reaper and you go your "fck you imma helicopter") then we could get morelove to skills, faster CD, no aftercast.

-But still i get Anet maybe wants this different, sometimes OP, most of the time useless, class for diversity. (I dont mean useless completely but hell..WvW ok but Pve and PvP(if you are good and have good teamates then this is exception) there is no reason to bring necro. All good stuff was gutted. Epi </3

-Rework LF regen just by hitting no to certain skills. Then skill can get some second effects :)

These changes do not happen 100%, but they are filled with hope, that one day people will ask for necro and not hate it cuz "low dps, no utility, cancer to play against,..

Dace.8173 · August 27, 2018

@Asum.4960 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@DragonFury.6243 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Catchyfx.5768 said:It's funny, here people want fix bugged skills that Are Pure RNG. In other proffesions sections Ppl cry fór moar dmg And buffs and actually they get it ? And we get nerfies. Give IT 5 years they change it