why has necro still not been buffed

Catchyfx.5768 · August 22, 2018

@nekretaal.6485 said:
There may be hope. Thief and Mesmer and Revenant all got redesigns, so maybe someday Necromancer will get its turn.

Heh they better create 10th class then rework/improve necro ?

Dace.8173 · August 22, 2018

@Catchyfx.5768 said:
@nekretaal.6485 said:
There may be hope. Thief and Mesmer and Revenant all got redesigns, so maybe someday Necromancer will get its turn.

Heh they better create 10th class then rework/improve necro ?

When did they redesign Revenant? Last I checked they are making improvements to Herald but that's a far cry from a redesign.

Dace.8173 · August 22, 2018

@Asum.4960 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@Conqueror.3682 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
Except, damage isn't exactly the issue. It's the thing that a lot of people talk about but DPS alone isn't what at fault. Even if you lowered the DPS of every other profession in the game Necromancer would still suffer the same problem as a lot of the other professions in the game doing damage and .... If Necromancer only brings just DPS to the table people would still likely shun it since they can get DPS from any old profession but those other professions also offer other useful things. Mesmer offers you DPS and access to useful boons such as alacrity. The discussion on Necromancer needs to evolve beyond damage because damage alone will not make Necromancer better.

Im open to suggestions.

Right now scourge provides little quantities of might, a good idea could be to buff these skills to give might more easily, still, druids and i think mesmers give might too. So, if this get buffed, then maybe the problem will not be solved, other solution can be a unique buff, but since necromancer have already vampiric presence, and this one buff is really bad i dont see what can be done with this.

But i still believe that damage needs to be buffed. I ask now, what you want from necromancer? what kind of role? because even if necromancer can get buffs like quickness or alacrity, well, you have mesmer that will do it better, so why bother?

Also, necromancer is not a class that empowers him/herself, its about weaken the enemy, another suggestion can be that your weakening conditions are stronger, say, with necro you can get 5 extra stacks of vulnerabilty, reaching 30 stacks, that can be huge in a boss

I don't have a role in mind as I don't main Necromancer. I just like playing Reaper a lot. But if I had to pick a role for Necromancer I would like go with boon and condition manipulation along the lines of corrupting and converting them. Take the conditions on someone else and turn them into boons. Take the boons on someone else and turn them into conditions. Damage can be buffed but just a pure buff doesn't change anything. If you made Necromancer equal in terms of DPS to everyone else there is still no reason to take them as everyone else can do DPS plus something else. It's the plus something else that gets a profession added to a team, not just pure DPS.

That's not really a major problem anymore and a simple DPS increase could make Necro viable in the eyes of Meta players. Not optimal, but viable, like all other professions.The game is in a spot now where Chronomancer does everything else. To a lesser extent you have Druid and BS always filling a slot, but beyond that, all you need to get into a group is a profession that does over 32K DPS (preferably power for most of the endgame content), preferably a bit more with some up front burst and cleave.

That's it.

Unfortunately, Necromancer is the only profession that falls far behind that, doing nearly a whopping five thousand damage less than that every second.That is just too much to phase bosses comfortably in a lot of situation, making a variety of encounters much more difficult, and no one wants to bother with that for no reason if they can just take any other DPS instead.

I'm not saying this is a good situation or a satisfying fix, but until especially Chronomancer get's nerfed, that's all that is left for every other class to do.Do a certain number of DPS that is in line with other DPS's.

The other option to make Necro currently viable without redesigning the entire game, giving mobs plentiful boons and condition applications, would be to give Scourge one or two powerful group damage buffs, as well as adding a few direct heals to a weapon or two, as well as changing some utility skills to provide more support in forms of heals and or boons and buffing it's ability to generate 25 stacks of might slightly and adding some group Fury to the kit, so it could properly compete with Druid.

I still disagree. I just don't see DPS increases as being enough for Necromancer to shed its stigma of being useless in PvE.

Obtena.7952 · August 22, 2018

@Asum.4960 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@Conqueror.3682 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
Except, damage isn't exactly the issue. It's the thing that a lot of people talk about but DPS alone isn't what at fault. Even if you lowered the DPS of every other profession in the game Necromancer would still suffer the same problem as a lot of the other professions in the game doing damage and .... If Necromancer only brings just DPS to the table people would still likely shun it since they can get DPS from any old profession but those other professions also offer other useful things. Mesmer offers you DPS and access to useful boons such as alacrity. The discussion on Necromancer needs to evolve beyond damage because damage alone will not make Necromancer better.

Im open to suggestions.

Right now scourge provides little quantities of might, a good idea could be to buff these skills to give might more easily, still, druids and i think mesmers give might too. So, if this get buffed, then maybe the problem will not be solved, other solution can be a unique buff, but since necromancer have already vampiric presence, and this one buff is really bad i dont see what can be done with this.

But i still believe that damage needs to be buffed. I ask now, what you want from necromancer? what kind of role? because even if necromancer can get buffs like quickness or alacrity, well, you have mesmer that will do it better, so why bother?

Also, necromancer is not a class that empowers him/herself, its about weaken the enemy, another suggestion can be that your weakening conditions are stronger, say, with necro you can get 5 extra stacks of vulnerabilty, reaching 30 stacks, that can be huge in a boss

I don't have a role in mind as I don't main Necromancer. I just like playing Reaper a lot. But if I had to pick a role for Necromancer I would like go with boon and condition manipulation along the lines of corrupting and converting them. Take the conditions on someone else and turn them into boons. Take the boons on someone else and turn them into conditions. Damage can be buffed but just a pure buff doesn't change anything. If you made Necromancer equal in terms of DPS to everyone else there is still no reason to take them as everyone else can do DPS plus something else. It's the plus something else that gets a profession added to a team, not just pure DPS.

That's not really a major problem anymore and a simple DPS increase could make Necro viable in the eyes of Meta players. Not optimal, but viable, like all other professions.

Define 'simple' because the last time I checked, Necro would need it's currently best build to get a flat 20% increase to even compete with the average Meta DPS ... and why would anyone think to take a necro even then? That's not 'simple' levels of increase from what I've seen in this game.

Anchoku.8142 · August 23, 2018

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@Conqueror.3682 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
Except, damage isn't exactly the issue. It's the thing that a lot of people talk about but DPS alone isn't what at fault. Even if you lowered the DPS of every other profession in the game Necromancer would still suffer the same problem as a lot of the other professions in the game doing damage and .... If Necromancer only brings just DPS to the table people would still likely shun it since they can get DPS from any old profession but those other professions also offer other useful things. Mesmer offers you DPS and access to useful boons such as alacrity. The discussion on Necromancer needs to evolve beyond damage because damage alone will not make Necromancer better.

Im open to suggestions.

Right now scourge provides little quantities of might, a good idea could be to buff these skills to give might more easily, still, druids and i think mesmers give might too. So, if this get buffed, then maybe the problem will not be solved, other solution can be a unique buff, but since necromancer have already vampiric presence, and this one buff is really bad i dont see what can be done with this.

But i still believe that damage needs to be buffed. I ask now, what you want from necromancer? what kind of role? because even if necromancer can get buffs like quickness or alacrity, well, you have mesmer that will do it better, so why bother?

Also, necromancer is not a class that empowers him/herself, its about weaken the enemy, another suggestion can be that your weakening conditions are stronger, say, with necro you can get 5 extra stacks of vulnerabilty, reaching 30 stacks, that can be huge in a boss

I don't have a role in mind as I don't main Necromancer. I just like playing Reaper a lot. But if I had to pick a role for Necromancer I would like go with boon and condition manipulation along the lines of corrupting and converting them. Take the conditions on someone else and turn them into boons. Take the boons on someone else and turn them into conditions. Damage can be buffed but just a pure buff doesn't change anything. If you made Necromancer equal in terms of DPS to everyone else there is still no reason to take them as everyone else can do DPS plus something else. It's the plus something else that gets a profession added to a team, not just pure DPS.

That's not really a major problem anymore and a simple DPS increase could make Necro viable in the eyes of Meta players. Not optimal, but viable, like all other professions.

Define 'simple' because the last time I checked, Necro would need it's currently best build to get a flat 20% increase to even

compete

with the

average

Meta DPS ... and why would anyone think to take a necro even then? That's not 'simple' levels of increase from what I've seen in this game.

There is not much simple about Necromancer balance between game modes.Necro is like, "Get me one good babysitter and I will be crazy OP," in a couple of game modes versus, "Nine babysitters and I'm still lame."

Gustaff.6581 · August 23, 2018

Maybe i was wrong on my words, its not to make people say "yay! we have a necro!", it is for people to NOT say "shit!! it is a necro, get out!"

@Obtena.7952 said:If you ask me, that's a small problem that doesn't need to be fixed, because they are only undesirable for a very specific situations; Necros trying to join strict Meta PUGs. Being desirable isn't about giving something to necros; it's about how people play the game. There are LOTS of undesirable classes and builds if someone wants to build an ultra optimized Meta group. That doesn't mean there's a problem.

Good to know your opinion, if you ask me, i think necro needs a easy access into endgame pve. Yes its the exactly oposite but thats my point of view. Yes there are lots of undesirable builds, isnt that ovbious? but the problem is when a whole profesion is undesirable. Of course we are talking about PvE.

In real life, i mean, in everything you will find a role system, are you studying? working? you will fill a role soon or you are filling one right now, well thats why these games are role playing games.

@"Dace.8173" said:If you made Necromancer equal in terms of DPS to everyone else there is still no reason to take them as everyone else can do DPS plus something else. It's the plus something else that gets a profession added to a team, not just pure DPS.

Are we playing the same game? "everyone can do dps plus something else", plus something what, as far as i know, there are professions that were picked only by their damage, example elementalist (well, no idea if its still picked right now), do i continue with this?

Swamurabi.7890 · August 23, 2018

@Anchoku.8142 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@Conqueror.3682 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
Except, damage isn't exactly the issue. It's the thing that a lot of people talk about but DPS alone isn't what at fault. Even if you lowered the DPS of every other profession in the game Necromancer would still suffer the same problem as a lot of the other professions in the game doing damage and .... If Necromancer only brings just DPS to the table people would still likely shun it since they can get DPS from any old profession but those other professions also offer other useful things. Mesmer offers you DPS and access to useful boons such as alacrity. The discussion on Necromancer needs to evolve beyond damage because damage alone will not make Necromancer better.

Im open to suggestions.

Right now scourge provides little quantities of might, a good idea could be to buff these skills to give might more easily, still, druids and i think mesmers give might too. So, if this get buffed, then maybe the problem will not be solved, other solution can be a unique buff, but since necromancer have already vampiric presence, and this one buff is really bad i dont see what can be done with this.

But i still believe that damage needs to be buffed. I ask now, what you want from necromancer? what kind of role? because even if necromancer can get buffs like quickness or alacrity, well, you have mesmer that will do it better, so why bother?

Also, necromancer is not a class that empowers him/herself, its about weaken the enemy, another suggestion can be that your weakening conditions are stronger, say, with necro you can get 5 extra stacks of vulnerabilty, reaching 30 stacks, that can be huge in a boss

I don't have a role in mind as I don't main Necromancer. I just like playing Reaper a lot. But if I had to pick a role for Necromancer I would like go with boon and condition manipulation along the lines of corrupting and converting them. Take the conditions on someone else and turn them into boons. Take the boons on someone else and turn them into conditions. Damage can be buffed but just a pure buff doesn't change anything. If you made Necromancer equal in terms of DPS to everyone else there is still no reason to take them as everyone else can do DPS plus something else. It's the plus something else that gets a profession added to a team, not just pure DPS.

That's not really a major problem anymore and a simple DPS increase could make Necro viable in the eyes of Meta players. Not optimal, but viable, like all other professions.

Define 'simple' because the last time I checked, Necro would need it's currently best build to get a flat 20% increase to even

compete

with the

average

Meta DPS ... and why would anyone think to take a necro even then? That's not 'simple' levels of increase from what I've seen in this game.

There is not much simple about Necromancer balance between game modes.Necro is like, "Get me one good babysitter and I will be crazy OP," in a couple of game modes versus, "Nine babysitters and I'm

still

lame."

I think the "Get me one good babysitter and I will be crazy OP" is an invalid argument, because for one nobody says the same thing when talking about the burst builds in sPvP. Also the "two health bars" is invalid because some of that extra health is used to "power" attacks and isn't only just used for sustain.

Dadnir.5038 · August 23, 2018

@Conqueror.3682 said:
@"Dace.8173" said:If you made Necromancer equal in terms of DPS to everyone else there is still no reason to take them as everyone else can do DPS plus something else. It's the plus something else that gets a profession added to a team, not just pure DPS.

Are we playing the same game? "everyone can do dps plus something else", plus something what, as far as i know, there are professions that were picked only by their damage, example elementalist (well, no idea if its still picked right now), do i continue with this?

I think that the natural "survivability" of the necromancer could finally be seen as this "something else". The "something else" of the elementalist is still it's ability to deal more damage on large target.

maddoctor.2738 · August 23, 2018

@"bara yaoi.3824" said:do the devs not just see this forum section where every thread is a complaint on necromancers status? im genuinely confused y they are still bad like wat is going on?? even in FFXIV, ignored classes like dark knight don't remain bad for this long of a period of time, like wut??? this is really confusing !!!! what is going on behind the scenes?

Probably because the status of Necromancer is great in PVP and any buffs to Necromancer will make them even more OP (already meta) in PVP.As long as they only split "numbers" in their skill balancing it will be like this, something completely overpowered in one mode, and under powered in another. Only way to "fix" this (again if they only split with number tweaks) is by creating new elite specs that are great in different parts of the game.

Catchyfx.5768 · August 23, 2018

@maddoctor.2738 said:
@"bara yaoi.3824" said:do the devs not just see this forum section where every thread is a complaint on necromancers status? im genuinely confused y they are still bad like wat is going on?? even in FFXIV, ignored classes like dark knight don't remain bad for this long of a period of time, like wut??? this is really confusing !!!! what is going on behind the scenes?

Probably because the status of Necromancer is great in PVP and any buffs to Necromancer will make them even more OP (already meta) in PVP.As long as they only split "numbers" in their skill balancing it will be like this, something completely overpowered in one mode, and under powered in another. Only way to "fix" this (again if they only split with number tweaks) is by creating new elite specs that are great in different parts of the game.

but it would be fair to admit that necro is meta in PvP just thanks to babysitting. Class have the hardest time to survive on its own, without healer you are burden.

Asum.4960 · August 23, 2018

@Dace.8173 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@Conqueror.3682 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
Except, damage isn't exactly the issue. It's the thing that a lot of people talk about but DPS alone isn't what at fault. Even if you lowered the DPS of every other profession in the game Necromancer would still suffer the same problem as a lot of the other professions in the game doing damage and .... If Necromancer only brings just DPS to the table people would still likely shun it since they can get DPS from any old profession but those other professions also offer other useful things. Mesmer offers you DPS and access to useful boons such as alacrity. The discussion on Necromancer needs to evolve beyond damage because damage alone will not make Necromancer better.

Im open to suggestions.

Right now scourge provides little quantities of might, a good idea could be to buff these skills to give might more easily, still, druids and i think mesmers give might too. So, if this get buffed, then maybe the problem will not be solved, other solution can be a unique buff, but since necromancer have already vampiric presence, and this one buff is really bad i dont see what can be done with this.

But i still believe that damage needs to be buffed. I ask now, what you want from necromancer? what kind of role? because even if necromancer can get buffs like quickness or alacrity, well, you have mesmer that will do it better, so why bother?

Also, necromancer is not a class that empowers him/herself, its about weaken the enemy, another suggestion can be that your weakening conditions are stronger, say, with necro you can get 5 extra stacks of vulnerabilty, reaching 30 stacks, that can be huge in a boss

I don't have a role in mind as I don't main Necromancer. I just like playing Reaper a lot. But if I had to pick a role for Necromancer I would like go with boon and condition manipulation along the lines of corrupting and converting them. Take the conditions on someone else and turn them into boons. Take the boons on someone else and turn them into conditions. Damage can be buffed but just a pure buff doesn't change anything. If you made Necromancer equal in terms of DPS to everyone else there is still no reason to take them as everyone else can do DPS plus something else. It's the plus something else that gets a profession added to a team, not just pure DPS.

That's not really a major problem anymore and a simple DPS increase could make Necro viable in the eyes of Meta players. Not optimal, but viable, like all other professions.The game is in a spot now where Chronomancer does everything else. To a lesser extent you have Druid and BS always filling a slot, but beyond that, all you need to get into a group is a profession that does over 32K DPS (preferably power for most of the endgame content), preferably a bit more with some up front burst and cleave.

That's it.

Unfortunately, Necromancer is the only profession that falls far behind that, doing nearly a whopping five thousand damage less than that every second.That is just too much to phase bosses comfortably in a lot of situation, making a variety of encounters much more difficult, and no one wants to bother with that for no reason if they can just take any other DPS instead.

I'm not saying this is a good situation or a satisfying fix, but until especially Chronomancer get's nerfed, that's all that is left for every other class to do.Do a certain number of DPS that is in line with other DPS's.

The other option to make Necro currently viable without redesigning the entire game, giving mobs plentiful boons and condition applications, would be to give Scourge one or two powerful group damage buffs, as well as adding a few direct heals to a weapon or two, as well as changing some utility skills to provide more support in forms of heals and or boons and buffing it's ability to generate 25 stacks of might slightly and adding some group Fury to the kit, so it could properly compete with Druid.

I still disagree. I just don't see DPS increases as being enough for Necromancer to shed its stigma of being useless in PvE.

Deadeye got a DPS buff and became a meta DPS with that patch.DPS is the only thing that it adds to the group. It has no cleave, no boon support and very little to no mechanical support and is generally taken over power Daredevil, which also became a very much so viable (and on some bosses also meta) DPS with the same damage buff, just because it's slightly inferior in terms of DPS while adding some cleave and group support, especially in a raid scenario.

If Reaper did 33-35k DPS tomorrow, it would be a welcome sight in Raids and Fractals the instant those benchmarks go up.I don't understand why that's so hard to see.

Same thing happened with condition Holo, power Soulbeast.. it happens all the time as other classes and builds are buffed.

With Chrono taking care of everything, the only thing any other profession needs to be viable is DPS.While that might be sad on some level, it has been proven true over and over again.

And let's not pretend this is all that hard to do from a game design level without breaking the Profession in PvP.Just look at the major Thief change to Exposed Weakness.

Give Necro one or two traits that scale up the damage based on the number of conditions on the target like Thief got, which would even be thematic, and with Chaos Chrono being this broken one that scales with boons you have and you got your viable damage buff for PvE, while they are kept in check in PvP.

Necromancer's access to damage modifiers via traits is laughable compared to other professions, which needs to change.

Catchyfx.5768 · August 23, 2018

@Asum.4960 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@Conqueror.3682 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
Except, damage isn't exactly the issue. It's the thing that a lot of people talk about but DPS alone isn't what at fault. Even if you lowered the DPS of every other profession in the game Necromancer would still suffer the same problem as a lot of the other professions in the game doing damage and .... If Necromancer only brings just DPS to the table people would still likely shun it since they can get DPS from any old profession but those other professions also offer other useful things. Mesmer offers you DPS and access to useful boons such as alacrity. The discussion on Necromancer needs to evolve beyond damage because damage alone will not make Necromancer better.

Necromancer's access to damage modifiers via traits is laughable compared to other professions, which needs to change.

Well look at this video and look on Traits and I can only agree with her.

if you can choose trait that on AA give 2 vulnerability well..

Obtena.7952 · August 23, 2018

@"Conqueror.3682" said:Maybe i was wrong on my words, its not to make people say "yay! we have a necro!", it is for people to NOT say "kitten!! it is a necro, get out!"
@Obtena.7952 said:If you ask me, that's a small problem that doesn't need to be fixed, because they are only undesirable for a very specific situations; Necros trying to join strict Meta PUGs. Being desirable isn't about giving something to necros; it's about how people play the game. There are LOTS of undesirable classes and builds if someone wants to build an ultra optimized Meta group. That doesn't mean there's a problem.

Good to know your opinion, if you ask me, i think necro needs a easy access into endgame pve. Yes its the exactly oposite but thats my point of view. Yes there are lots of undesirable builds, isnt that ovbious? but the problem is when a whole profesion is undesirable. Of course we are talking about PvE.

In real life, i mean, in everything you will find a role system, are you studying? working? you will fill a role soon or you are filling one right now, well thats why these games are role playing games.

Necro does have easy access to endgame PVE. That's not the same thing as making it desirable for Meta PUG groups. That's a VERY specific issue and it's not something that Anet necessarily needs to 'fix' because it's about players making choices.

Dace.8173 · August 24, 2018