Unforgiving Change (Justified or No)?

[AikijinX.6258]

Hey guys it's me again.

I have taken an extensive amount of time off the game, popping my head in here and there, just to make sure to keep the game up to date, so when i came back i didn't have a ton of downloads to go through.

I've noticed upon my return the Unforgiving DE Master trait was switched. Was there any word or reason for this change?, The Stun we got from the trait was sublime, and all in all very useful and utilizing for engages, or in general CC. Has anet announced or explained and why this change was sought after, and is there any discussion in the works for a revert on the change to bring it back? Unforgiving was by far a top contender for traits.

And just in case you were curious. I have a montage on the way, so keep a look out. :)

[Bezerker.2379]

Welcome back. :) Looking forward to your montage.

As to unforgiving, no idea. It definitely neutered the build though. Burst builds are still available, but the changes to stealth and rifle made Shadow arts thieves the new meta.

[dDuff.3860]

@Bezerker.2379 said:Welcome back. :) Looking forward to your montage.

As to unforgiving, no idea. It definitely neutered the build though. Burst builds are still available, but the changes to stealth and rifle made Shadow arts thieves the new meta.

lol, about SA. pve meta?

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@"AikijinX.6258" said:I've noticed upon my return the Unforgiving DE Master trait was switched. Was there any word or reason for this change?

More information can be found in this thread, ["An eye on the Deadeye"](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38716/an-eye-on-the-deadeye/p1 ""An eye on the Deadeye""). They scraped the Deadeye and rebuilt it from the scraps. You can review the May 8, 2018 patch notes for details of the changes.

[Turk.5460]

I questioned the change a few times in the official DE Rework thread. It's missed dearly, and is what drove me (along with adding cast time to mark ability) from my DE/Trick/DA build to a Perma-Stealth CS/SA/DE 1-shot, low-counterplay build.

[Bezerker.2379]

@dDuff.3860 said:

@Bezerker.2379 said:Welcome back. :) Looking forward to your montage.

As to unforgiving, no idea. It definitely neutered the build though. Burst builds are still available, but the changes to stealth and rifle made Shadow arts thieves the new meta.

lol, about SA. pve meta?

This is the thief forum. We're not allowed to PVE. :)

[DeceiverX.8361]

ANet realized SA stealth-camping and waiting for 7 malice that way was stupid and rebuilt the spec, and the trait got caught up in the mix. Silent Scope is too good to not take, even on low-stealth builds, though.Of course, SA stealth-camping is still a thing and DJ is now unblockable/made into the stealth attack, and SA DE's can do more damage than DA+CS core/DrD because of Malicious stealth attacks.

See Vincent's post for the patch notes.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Bezerker.2379 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:

@Bezerker.2379 said:Welcome back. :) Looking forward to your montage.

As to unforgiving, no idea. It definitely neutered the build though. Burst builds are still available, but the changes to stealth and rifle made Shadow arts thieves the new meta.

lol, about SA. pve meta?

This is the thief forum. We're not allowed to PVE. :)

I thought DE has highest dmg on small hitboxes. Isnt benchmarking a PvE thing?

[Bezerker.2379]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Bezerker.2379 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:

@Bezerker.2379 said:Welcome back. :) Looking forward to your montage.

As to unforgiving, no idea. It definitely neutered the build though. Burst builds are still available, but the changes to stealth and rifle made Shadow arts thieves the new meta.

lol, about SA. pve meta?

This is the thief forum. We're not allowed to PVE. :)

I thought DE has highest dmg on small hitboxes. Isnt benchmarking a PvE thing?

Might still be. They nerfed d/d DE into the floor post patch though. I suspect rifle is still a thing but, given the years and years of "Thief adds very little to a group other than damage, and other classes do that and bring more." I gave up on the concept for thief. If we happen to be on top of something for the moment, that's just a fluke. :)

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Bezerker.2379 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Bezerker.2379 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:

@Bezerker.2379 said:Welcome back. :) Looking forward to your montage.

As to unforgiving, no idea. It definitely neutered the build though. Burst builds are still available, but the changes to stealth and rifle made Shadow arts thieves the new meta.

lol, about SA. pve meta?

This is the thief forum. We're not allowed to PVE. :)

I thought DE has highest dmg on small hitboxes. Isnt benchmarking a PvE thing?

Might still be. They nerfed d/d DE into the floor post patch though. I suspect rifle is still a thing but, given the years and years of "Thief adds very little to a group other than damage, and other classes do that and bring more." I gave up on the concept for thief. If we happen to be on top of something for the moment, that's just a fluke. :)

DE is still strong in single target and DD is just slightly below it.For DPS there is nothing to complain atm.Sure id rather wanted to see a support spec with DE because mark was a perfect candidate for a debuff mechanic against bosses but dmg wise it isnt to shabby either.They debuffed the dmg on dagger but incresed the speed of the autochain (backstab aftercasts i thought it was to be exact) and increased dmg modifiers in the traitline corresponding to the dagger. Its actually stronger than it was before, most ppl just see the 17% decrease and dont do the calcs. You can backstab more often and you deal more dmg per hit (or about the same in a suboptimal scenario) . Ofc ppl could complain why they didnt leave it at this high rate but its still at the top for small hitbox dps so why bother.

Sure sonething else than dmg would be a state to be desired for because thats the only thing thiefs did the last 6 years.But its current performance is out if question good.

[TwiceDead.1963]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Bezerker.2379 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Bezerker.2379 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:

@Bezerker.2379 said:Welcome back. :) Looking forward to your montage.

As to unforgiving, no idea. It definitely neutered the build though. Burst builds are still available, but the changes to stealth and rifle made Shadow arts thieves the new meta.

lol, about SA. pve meta?

This is the thief forum. We're not allowed to PVE. :)

I thought DE has highest dmg on small hitboxes. Isnt benchmarking a PvE thing?

Might still be. They nerfed d/d DE into the floor post patch though. I suspect rifle is still a thing but, given the years and years of "Thief adds very little to a group other than damage, and other classes do that and bring more." I gave up on the concept for thief. If we happen to be on top of something for the moment, that's just a fluke. :)

DE is still strong in single target and DD is just slightly below it.For DPS there is nothing to complain atm.Sure id rather wanted to see a support spec with DE because mark was a perfect candidate for a debuff mechanic against bosses but dmg wise it isnt to shabby either.

They could update FfE to increase the damage dealt to the marked target from teammates (within the boon radius) by 2-5%. It would need a cap of some sort though, allowing anyone hitting the target to gain bonus damage ... Would easily break things more than they already are.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

Unforgiving was very, very powerful when paired with Swindler's and BQBK, so I kind of get why it was removed. . . but oh lordey do I miss it. RIP S/P stunlocker build.

[Turk.5460]

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:Unforgiving was very, very powerful when paired with Swindler's and BQBK, so I kind of get why it was removed. . . but oh lordey do I miss it. RIP S/P stunlocker build.

Acro and DE weren't paired, and if they were then the person piloting that build was severely hindering themselves.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

@Turk.5460 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:Unforgiving was very, very powerful when paired with Swindler's and BQBK, so I kind of get why it was removed. . . but oh lordey do I miss it. RIP S/P stunlocker build.

Acro and DE weren't paired, and if they were then the person piloting that build was

severely

hindering themselves.

Meh, it worked for me, and was insanely fun. Dropping those stuns every 3-5 seconds off PW and Mark made for some really vicious melee fights.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Turk.5460 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:Unforgiving was very, very powerful when paired with Swindler's and BQBK, so I kind of get why it was removed. . . but oh lordey do I miss it. RIP S/P stunlocker build.

Acro and DE weren't paired, and if they were then the person piloting that build was

severely

hindering themselves.

In WvW, you kinda have to make sacrifices. Acro is necessary without DD.

[Turk.5460]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:Unforgiving was very, very powerful when paired with Swindler's and BQBK, so I kind of get why it was removed. . . but oh lordey do I miss it. RIP S/P stunlocker build.

Acro and DE weren't paired, and if they were then the person piloting that build was

severely

hindering themselves.

In WvW, you kinda have to make sacrifices. Acro is necessary without DD.

Acro is most definitely not necessary when you are playing DE. I'm not saying it won't work, but any of the other trait lines will perform better.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:Unforgiving was very, very powerful when paired with Swindler's and BQBK, so I kind of get why it was removed. . . but oh lordey do I miss it. RIP S/P stunlocker build.

Acro and DE weren't paired, and if they were then the person piloting that build was

severely

hindering themselves.

In WvW, you kinda have to make sacrifices. Acro is necessary without DD.

Acro is most definitely

not

necessary when you are playing DE. I'm not saying it won't work, but any of the other trait lines will perform

better.

Acro used to be better for S/D rifle DE when using swindler's equilibrium and be quick or be killed on a boon build, you could get really good might and quickness uptime with a lot of boonsteal and great unblockable access. Since the sword damage nerfs, the M7 rework with perfectionist not being a minor trait and now swindler's equilibrium nerf it's just not the same anymore which is a shame, it was a fun way to play. A modified version still works somewhat in PvP but that might just be because I'm more experienced with that build than other strictly better PvP builds since I don't play the mode often.

On topic; I never understood the unforgiving change, that trait was amazing. Removing that and the trait of the same tier that made stolen condis and boons apply on an AoE in the same was a massive loss of build diversity in deadeye I felt, and the traits they replaced them with aren't exactly amazing in comparison imo.

And one in the chamber is still somehow in the game....

[Turk.5460]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:Unforgiving was very, very powerful when paired with Swindler's and BQBK, so I kind of get why it was removed. . . but oh lordey do I miss it. RIP S/P stunlocker build.

Acro and DE weren't paired, and if they were then the person piloting that build was

severely

hindering themselves.

In WvW, you kinda have to make sacrifices. Acro is necessary without DD.

Acro is most definitely

not

necessary when you are playing DE. I'm not saying it won't work, but any of the other trait lines will perform

better.

Acro used to be better for S/D rifle DE when using swindler's equilibrium and be quick or be killed on a boon build, you could get really good might and quickness uptime with a lot of boonsteal and great unblockable access. Since the sword damage nerfs, the M7 rework with perfectionist not being a minor trait and now swindler's equilibrium nerf it's just not the same anymore which is a shame, it was a fun way to play. A modified version still works somewhat in PvP but that might just be because I'm more experienced with that build than other strictly better PvP builds since I don't play the mode often.

On topic; I never understood the unforgiving change, that trait was amazing. Removing that and the trait of the same tier that made stolen condis and boons apply on an AoE in the same was a massive loss of build diversity in deadeye I felt, and the traits they replaced them with aren't exactly amazing in comparison imo.

And one in the chamber is still somehow in the game....

One in the Chamber should be replaced with Unforgiving, unless they finally give it -20% cooldown to cantrips.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:Unforgiving was very, very powerful when paired with Swindler's and BQBK, so I kind of get why it was removed. . . but oh lordey do I miss it. RIP S/P stunlocker build.

Acro and DE weren't paired, and if they were then the person piloting that build was

severely

hindering themselves.

In WvW, you kinda have to make sacrifices. Acro is necessary without DD.

Acro is most definitely

not

necessary when you are playing DE. I'm not saying it won't work, but any of the other trait lines will perform

better.

Acro used to be better for S/D rifle DE when using swindler's equilibrium and be quick or be killed on a boon build, you could get really good might and quickness uptime with a lot of boonsteal and great unblockable access. Since the sword damage nerfs, the M7 rework with perfectionist not being a minor trait and now swindler's equilibrium nerf it's just not the same anymore which is a shame, it was a fun way to play. A modified version still works somewhat in PvP but that might just be because I'm more experienced with that build than other strictly better PvP builds since I don't play the mode often.

On topic; I never understood the unforgiving change, that trait was amazing. Removing that and the trait of the same tier that made stolen condis and boons apply on an AoE in the same was a massive loss of build diversity in deadeye I felt, and the traits they replaced them with aren't exactly amazing in comparison imo.

And one in the chamber is still somehow in the game....

One in the Chamber should be replaced with Unforgiving, unless they finally give it -20% cooldown to cantrips.

I'd be pretty happy if it was replaced honestly, it's just not a very good trait.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@"JonnyForgotten.4276" said:Unforgiving was very, very powerful when paired with Swindler's and BQBK, so I kind of get why it was removed. . . but oh lordey do I miss it. RIP S/P stunlocker build.

Acro and DE weren't paired, and if they were then the person piloting that build was

severely

hindering themselves.

In WvW, you kinda have to make sacrifices. Acro is necessary without DD.

Acro is most definitely

not

necessary when you are playing DE. I'm not saying it won't work, but any of the other trait lines will perform

better.

I agree, thus "have to make sacrifices".

[AikijinX.6258]

Thanks for the comments guys, So the general consensus for reason and backing behind the removal is unclear from Devs from what I am getting at. And the trait that has replaced it definitely is in no real competition with Unforgiving.

[Turk.5460]

@AikijinX.6258 said:Thanks for the comments guys, So the general consensus for reason and backing behind the removal is unclear from Devs from what I am getting at. And the trait that has replaced it definitely is in no real competition with Unforgiving.

Correct, a potent tool for fighting other players was replaced with a fairly strong tool for open-world PvE. Not exactly an ideal trade-off for the DE builds which are not stealth-focused. (In regards to fighting other players, at least.)

[Noha.3749]

Still waiting for that montage @AikijinX.6258 ;)

[Idaeus.9564]

I preferred the old master traits by far. Unforgiving was way more fun to fight with and against than all this stealth on dodge.