Ls4 into Ls5

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Not really. Yes, her death led the way for another villain, but she was still a major villain with her entire own plot of her own. Your argument is akin to saying Khilbron and Shiro Tagachi were not major villains just because they ended up as generals under Abaddon. They were major villains though, because they had an entire game dedicated to them as the villain of the plot.Complete and total false comparison fallacy. Khilbron and Shiro where the man villains of an entire game, Scarlet was never the final boss like they were. She was more akin to like Dagnar Stonepate if anything.

[Genesis.8572]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:He was a side villain because ArenaNet chose to make him such. He could have been a major villain, as could have Caudecus and Lazarus, just as Scarlet Briar was. He had the army, the resources, and the power. And most importantly, he had the character for one.This is something of a nonsensical truism. Of course ArenaNet could have chosen to make Caudecus, Lazarus, or Palawa Joko major villains. They could have even chosen to make Drooburt a villain too. If you were a playable human, then confronting Caudecus certainly felt satisfying in how it resolved many longstanding storylines. With a solid chunk of the White Mantle at his side, Caudecus did feel like a real threat, even though we may recognize this as the desperate death throes of a power-hungry despot. And certainly there is nothing much that Balthazar really adds to PoF that could not have been similarly done by Lazarus as a major villain had ArenaNet not done a bait-and-switch in the middle of LWS3. That would have at least prevented an Abaddon 2.0 storyline. And in some alternate universes, ArenaNet may have chosen that.

However, in the scope of the narrative that ArenaNet did choose for PoF - stop the fallen god Balthazar from killing Kraalkatorik - Palawa Joko is undoubtedly a side-antagonist. He is a major villain in the scope of the lore. And Joko's army, resources, and power are hurdles that the Commander must deal with on their route to Balthazar. Even when he is not physically present, his influence can constantly be felt throughout Elona. With Balthazar's storyline resolved, however, Palawa Joko could have risen to become a major villain in the narrative. But this again represents a distraction from what has been our (revised) primary goals: balance Tyria's draconic ecosystem. And for three episodes and current events, we have been dealing with Palawa Joko (and an over saturation of Inquest content) seeking revenge against the Commander. Palawa Joko has basically forced our hands because if he continued further, we would be dead. Could ArenaNet have prolonged his presence in the story as a major antagonist? Sure. Should ArenaNet have prolonged his presence in the story as a major antagonist? That's debatable. If our future lies outside of Elona, then ArenaNet may have a limited amount of time, even with LW S4 and S5, to dedicate the narrative to Palawa Joko's villainy.

Though Palawa Joko is an interesting character for an antagonist, though somewhat overrated in my own estimation, I have been more interested in what would transpire in a post-Joko Elona. We have seen what Elona has become under Joko's rule, but not how sustainable it is without his magical cult-of-personality. This potential change in the subsequent balance-of-power and ensuing culture shock has been hinted at throughout PoF. Alongside the Sunspears, we have pushed the red button that the Order of Secrets has warned us not to touch. Now what? I am more interested in exploring that story than having a prolonged villainous Palawa Joko story that ends with us drive-by-killing Palawa Joko as we leave Elona in shambles.

[Randulf.7614]

The distinction between main or side villain is utterly irrelevant. Whether they are a side villain or not has no bearing on whether they should be allowed extended screen time. What diff does it make what label you give Scarlet or Joko? They were the central antagonist for their arc whichever way you look at it.

The argument on who is main or side keeps cropping up and it simpl,y doesnt matter. A villain is a villain. Sure the Dragons are the over arching nemesis in the game, but that does not mean any other interesting character we go up against needs shoving to one side as quickly as possible.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Not really. Yes, her death led the way for another villain, but she was still a major villain with her entire own plot of her own. Your argument is akin to saying Khilbron and Shiro Tagachi were not major villains just because they ended up as generals under Abaddon. They were major villains though, because they had an entire game dedicated to them as the villain of the plot.Complete and total false comparison fallacy. Khilbron and Shiro where the man villains of an entire game, Scarlet was never the final boss like they were. She was more akin to like Dagnar Stonepate if anything.

She was the final boss of Season 1. This is an undeniable fact. She was not like Dagnar Stonepate (who's position was more like what Lazarus was put in, really).

@Genesis.8572 said:However, in the scope of the narrative that ArenaNet did choose for PoF - stop the fallen god Balthazar from killing Kraalkatorik - Palawa Joko is undoubtedly a side-antagonist.

And I wasn't speaking in the scope of Path of Fire, but in the scope of Season 4. Where he is the very first threat talked about.

If our future lies outside of Elona, then ArenaNet may have a limited amount of time, even with LW S4 and S5, to dedicate the narrative to Palawa Joko's villainy.Obviously our future lies outside of Elona, as I doubt they'll end the entire game with Kralkatorrik. But they're in command of the duration of plots and the direction of narratives. And they've already admitted, apparently, that they regret killing him off so soon.

Though Palawa Joko is an interesting character for an antagonist, though somewhat overrated in my own estimation, I have been more interested in what would transpire in a post-Joko Elona. We have seen what Elona has become under Joko's rule, but not how sustainable it is without his magical cult-of-personality.And such would not be unavailable had Joko's plot lasted longer. It would merely take a bit more time to get to it.

[Genesis.8572]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And I wasn't speaking in the scope of Path of Fire, but in the scope of Season 4. Where he is the very first threat talked about.Daybreak begins with you talking about Kraalkatorik and then dealing with Kraalkatorik's branded Amnoon.

Obviously our future lies outside of Elona, as I doubt they'll end the entire game with Kralkatorrik.The point is that they will likely need to seed those next locations and plot points as well and possibly do it better than they had with LWS3 to PoF.

But they're in command of the duration of plots and the direction of narratives. And they've already admitted, apparently, that they regret killing him off so soon.Admission of "regret" does not equate to admission of making a mistake. It is likely expressing disappointment that they did not have more opportunities to explore a character or story than they otherwise had available.

And such would not be unavailable had Joko's plot lasted longer. It would merely take a bit more time to get to it.Not if there is a limitation to how many steps they have at their disposal. Yes, "they're in command of the duration of plots and the direction of narratives," but that is inherently constrained by pragmatic realities of planning and development. So yes there is a limit on plot duration when multiple plots must coexist within a limited space available. They don't have all the time in the world. They have a limited number of episodes that they can produce each season that will feed into the next season or next expansions. And this is not necessarily the only story that they want or need to tell. We do not know what awaits us yet in the remainder of Season 4.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And such would not be unavailable had Joko's plot lasted longer. It would merely take a bit more time to get to it.

Personally, I see the issue as being more a matter of content than time. If, in Joko's three episodes, he'd conquered Amnoon, assaulted Ebonhawke, and with his dying breath blindly released the Scarab Plague into the world where it could crop up later, I don't think this conversation would be hitting the points it consistently has. I feel like the bigger issue at play is how they used the time they did allot- A.) by making Joko's plan a single slow burn which fell apart in a way that left no mark, and B.) by blowing an entire episode of their three-episode budget on a filler, which is the thing that irks me more when I look back.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Genesis.8572 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And I wasn't speaking in the scope of Path of Fire, but in the scope of Season 4. Where he is the very first threat talked about.Daybreak begins with you talking about Kraalkatorik and then dealing with Kraalkatorik's branded Amnoon.

It actually begins with you talking about the bounty Joko put on the Commander's head. Then it goes to Kralkatorrik.

@Genesis.8572 said:The point is that they will likely need to seed those next locations and plot points as well and possibly do it better than they had with LWS3 to PoF.And a better designed Joko plot wouldn't hinder that at all.

@Genesis.8572 said:Admission of "regret" does not equate to admission of making a mistake. It is likely expressing disappointment that they did not have more opportunities to explore a character or story than they otherwise had available.

From my understanding, and I'm still working on second-hand, it sounds like they believed they couldn't make him a convincing villain, but after the reaction realized they had, and believe that they could have made him last longer and be more impactful after all.

Which does sound like an admission of making a mistake.

And they had all the opportunities they wanted to give themselves. They denied themselves those opportunities, and now seem to regret such.

@Genesis.8572 said:Not if there is a limitation to how many steps they have at their disposal. Yes, "they're in command of the duration of plots and the direction of narratives," but that is inherently constrained by pragmatic realities of planning and development. So yes there is a limit on plot duration when multiple plots must coexist within a limited space available. They don't have all the time in the world. They have a limited number of episodes that they can produce each season that will feed into the next season or next expansions. And this is not necessarily the only story that they want or need to tell. We do not know what awaits us yet in the remainder of Season 4.

Why would they have a limited number of episodes they can produce each season? Season 1 was over 20 episodes. Season 2 was eight. They're not restricted to a 6 episode duration. And they've shown they're far more than willing to delay plots until they "can do them justice", like how Season 2 barely touched the bandit plot, despite going straight into their territory with Fort Vandal and the like; or how they scrapped the Nightmare Court and Malyck plots from HoT, yet keep such as part of lore with "will get to it someday".

My point is that the whole "limited space available" is entirely up to the company. And it is, it really is.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And such would not be unavailable had Joko's plot lasted longer. It would merely take a bit more time to get to it.

Personally, I see the issue as being more a matter of content than time. If, in Joko's three episodes, he'd conquered Amnoon, assaulted Ebonhawke, and with his dying breath blindly released the Scarab Plague into the world where it could crop up later, I don't think this conversation would be hitting the points it consistently has. I feel like the bigger issue at play is how they used the time they did allot- A.) by making Joko's plan a single slow burn which fell apart in a way that left no mark, and B.) by blowing an entire episode of their three-episode budget on a filler, which is the thing that irks me more when I look back.

Not sure which one you consider a filler; Episode 1 had the return of Joko, and Episode 2 had the rising tension and threat level with him obtaining the Scarab Plague. Episode 3 then failed to deliver on that raised threat level with the silly additions of Scarab Plague lore that makes no logical sense, despite having flawless Joko dialogue.

I suppose one could argue Episode 2 was filler like, but I feel it was necessary to have a "close victory, but ultimate loss" against Joko before a final confrontation, and that's what Episode 2 delivered.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And such would not be unavailable had Joko's plot lasted longer. It would merely take a bit more time to get to it.

Personally, I see the issue as being more a matter of content than time. If, in Joko's three episodes, he'd conquered Amnoon, assaulted Ebonhawke, and with his dying breath blindly released the Scarab Plague into the world where it could crop up later, I don't think this conversation would be hitting the points it consistently has. I feel like the bigger issue at play is how they used the time they did allot- A.) by making Joko's plan a single slow burn which fell apart in a way that left no mark, and B.) by blowing an entire episode of their three-episode budget on a filler, which is the thing that irks me more when I look back.

Not sure which one you consider a filler; Episode 1 had the return of Joko, and Episode 2 had the rising tension and threat level with him obtaining the Scarab Plague. Episode 3 then failed to deliver on that raised threat level with the silly additions of Scarab Plague lore that makes no logical sense, despite having flawless Joko dialogue.

I suppose one could argue Episode 2 was filler like, but I feel it was necessary to have a "close victory, but ultimate loss" against Joko before a final confrontation, and that's what Episode 2 delivered.

Episode 2. It confirmed he had the Scarab Plague, but that's something we'd already suspected when Episode 1 ended with obscurely labeled specimens, one of which was ominously missing. There was the added step of the Inquest moving it to a new base which Joko then obtained it from instead of the lich getting it directly from the Fahranur facility, but that hardly added anything.

The only contributions A Bug in the System made to the Joko arc that wouldn't have been better suited to Daybreak or Long Live the Lich were Gorrik and Blish, and the pacing and tension you mentioned. Both of which were valuable, don't get me wrong, but not enough to justify the sheer bloat of everything else in that episode when they'd already given themselves such a constrained amount of room to work with. The Olmakhan, Rata Primus, the recycling of Daybreak's conclusion to provide the threat, even taking us to an area outside of Joko's control, where the setting couldn't make it's own contributions to his story arc... I strongly suspect that episode was planned more around setting up Taimi and Rox's character arcs for the next season or two than anything that kept Joko in mind, and if so, it showed.

[Bast.7253]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And such would not be unavailable had Joko's plot lasted longer. It would merely take a bit more time to get to it.

Personally, I see the issue as being more a matter of content than time. If, in Joko's three episodes, he'd conquered Amnoon, assaulted Ebonhawke, and with his dying breath blindly released the Scarab Plague into the world where it could crop up later, I don't think this conversation would be hitting the points it consistently has. I feel like the bigger issue at play is how they used the time they did allot- A.) by making Joko's plan a single slow burn which fell apart in a way that left no mark, and B.) by blowing an entire episode of their three-episode budget on a filler, which is the thing that irks me more when I look back.

Not sure which one you consider a filler; Episode 1 had the return of Joko, and Episode 2 had the rising tension and threat level with him obtaining the Scarab Plague. Episode 3 then failed to deliver on that raised threat level with the silly additions of Scarab Plague lore that makes no logical sense, despite having flawless Joko dialogue.

I suppose one could argue Episode 2 was filler like, but I feel it was necessary to have a "close victory, but ultimate loss" against Joko before a final confrontation, and that's what Episode 2 delivered.

Episode 2. It confirmed he had the Scarab Plague, but that's something we'd already suspected when Episode 1 ended with obscurely labeled specimens, one of which was ominously missing. There was the added step of the Inquest moving it to a new base which Joko then obtained it from instead of the lich getting it directly from the Fahranur facility, but that hardly added anything.

The only contributions A Bug in the System made to the Joko arc that wouldn't have been better suited to Daybreak or Long Live the Lich were Gorrik and Blish, and the pacing and tension you mentioned. Both of which were valuable, don't get me wrong, but not enough to justify the sheer bloat of everything else in that episode when they'd already given themselves such a constrained amount of room to work with. The Olmakhan, Rata Primus, the recycling of Daybreak's conclusion to provide the threat, even taking us to an area outside of Joko's control, where the setting couldn't make it's own contributions to his story arc... I strongly suspect that episode was planned more around setting up Taimi and Rox's character arcs for the next season or two than anything that kept Joko in mind, and if so, it showed.

It always felt like filler to me as well. Episode 2 I mean. The map design having a big sprawling Inquest base was neat, but the map itself outside of the Specimen Chamber and the Djinn meta didn't have much going for it. Pretty map, but a lot of pretty unused space. The whole inquest plot in general just never really appealed to me though so it's probably just bias. I'm glad it looks like we're at least temporarily moving away from Inquest. The large presence of them in Kourna seems strange as well with the various labs and Gandara being Asura-fied. It was a neat aesthetic that gave me hope for a potentially high-tech slum version of Kaening someday that looks like it's out of a Star Wars or high budget Netflix scifi film, but in terms of how well all the inquest stuff worked in Kourna it just didn't really seem to fit for me. Not to mention the lack of Inquest presence beforehand in the Joko areas of base Path of Fire. Just all the inquest stuff seemed like a random way to insert the scarab plague and give Joko a reason to be more of a universal threat I guess which gave him more precedence and pushed the story's focus on him. So I guess it served that goal. But in a sense I can see the frustration with that entire plot because it's like they really forced him to be the focus and this universal threat in a seemingly-to-me random way just to eliminate him and the focus on him after a few episodes. But in the end, what else would they have done with him? Keep him around and just let him keep enslaving people or worse as a pretender king/dictator? So we had to deal with him and his reign either way and I guess this was the best way they saw to allow us to do that.

I don't know. I'm interested in finding out his backstory and moving on at this point. Just getting any kind of story progression at this point would be nice. But I favor the Elder Dragon plots anyway. Generally higher stakes with them and they're more interesting to me due to how interwoven their existence is with Tyria.

[Genesis.8572]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And a better designed Joko plot wouldn't hinder that at all.A better designed plot is hindsight and it doesn't apply to your bitterness about Joko.

From my understanding, and I'm still working on second-hand, it sounds like they believed they couldn't make him a convincing villain, but after the reaction realized they had, and believe that they could have made him last longer and be more impactful after all.

Which does sound like an admission of making a mistake.It sounds more like regret from ANet and projection on ANet that it was a mistake from you.

Why would they have a limited number of episodes they can produce each season? Season 1 was over 20 episodes. Season 2 was eight. They're not restricted to a 6 episode duration. And they've shown they're far more than willing to delay plots until they "can do them justice", like how Season 2 barely touched the bandit plot, despite going straight into their territory with Fort Vandal and the like; or how they scrapped the Nightmare Court and Malyck plots from HoT, yet keep such as part of lore with "will get to it someday".

My point is that the whole "limited space available" is entirely up to the company. And it is, it really is.You ask why they would have a limited number of episodes they can produce and then you list the limited number of episodes that they produced? Okay. Season 1 doesn't follow the later models does it? Season 2 to 3 produced far less episodes than Season 1, and map content in Season 3 was bigger than what we got in Season 2, which spent its time expanding portions of two maps. And Season 4 maps have to be large enough to take mounts into account. They also have different teams working on each living world update in a cycle. The model has evolved. You are right that "limited space available" is entirely up to the company, but that does not mean that their power to produce is unlimited particularly if those living world developers have a model, plan, or budget that they are following. I get that you are bitter about wanting more from the Joko story, but not everyone else is dissatisfied as you are. The friends I frequently play with felt that he had adequate time in the story.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Why would they have a limited number of episodes they can produce each season? Season 1 was over 20 episodes. Season 2 was eight. They're not restricted to a 6 episode duration. And they've shown they're far more than willing to delay plots until they "can do them justice", like how Season 2 barely touched the bandit plot, despite going straight into their territory with Fort Vandal and the like; or how they scrapped the Nightmare Court and Malyck plots from HoT, yet keep such as part of lore with "will get to it someday".This is a rather odd question to ask, and amounts to asking why a popular game can only have so much DLC. Its because each release of something attracts less and less players back, and, eventually, it stops being worthwhile to make more of it. Season 1 is exact proof of this, I recall significantly less people logging in in the later releases then in the early ones because people stopped caring because there wasn't any sign of a substantive release(an expansion) coming. Season 1 was only as long as it was because Anet thought(incorrectly) back then that they could just keep doing Living World, and would never have to do expansions, and they tried running with it, but increasingly lacking player interest proved such a system wouldn't be sustainable.

While there is no objectively set time frame on when you need to produce new expansions, around every 18 months is the pattern most MMOs follow. And if Anet could keep to the 2-2.5 month pattern they originally tried to set, that would be 7-9 releases per season, but we know they can't keep to that pattern, and have instead fallen into a 3 month pattern, and a 3 month pattern would be 6 episodes. While we aren't getting an expansion after Season 4, they are changing seasons, and thus narratives, and are likely attempting to ride on that to keep player interest. There have been several people, such as Woodenpotatoes, who have expressed clear concern over this directions because, while LW is fine and all that, its the expansions that keep people coming back, and trying to jam another LW season after S4 means more extended time without any big meaty content to chew through, which means a likely decline in player interest.

There is also the problem of narrative fatigue. You can really only keep one narrative going for so long before the majority of people get bored, and before you have to resort to "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME GADGET!" techniques to keep it going. Joko is fairly limited due to being basically stuck in Elona. We already plowed through the Crystal Desert, The Desolation, and Vabbi in Path of Fire, and Istan's only major area is near Kamadan, and Kourna has Gandara and Jahai. There's only so many places Joko could realistically keep falling back too as we foil his plans one by one, and it would have really only lasted maybe one more episode at most had they had him flee to Jahai(which is something even Anet suggested). If not at Gandra, there is no logical means to continue the Joko plot beyond him going to Jahai, and us beating him there. Lets say the Joko plot did go to Jahai and beyond... where would he go after Jahai? A cave in western Kourna? He going to set up a little tenti n the sawps of southern Istan? You have to go into narratives with an already established limit on how long its going to last or else your narrative will run out of control from you. Most MMO companies know the high level beginning and ending of things over a year in advance. They have to, in order to make sure what they are making now takes the story in the direction they need to reach that point.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Why would they have a limited number of episodes they can produce each season? Season 1 was over 20 episodes. Season 2 was eight. They're not restricted to a 6 episode duration. And they've shown they're far more than willing to delay plots until they "can do them justice", like how Season 2 barely touched the bandit plot, despite going straight into their territory with Fort Vandal and the like; or how they scrapped the Nightmare Court and Malyck plots from HoT, yet keep such as part of lore with "will get to it someday".This is a rather odd question to ask, and amounts to asking why a popular game can only have so much DLC. Its because each release of something attracts less and less players back, and, eventually, it stops being worthwhile to make more of it. Season 1 is exact proof of this, I recall significantly less people logging in in the later releases then in the early ones because people stopped caring because there wasn't any sign of a substantive release(an expansion) coming. Season 1 was only as long as it was because Anet thought(incorrectly) back then that they could just keep doing Living World, and would never have to do expansions, and they tried running with it, but increasingly lacking player interest proved such a system wouldn't be sustainable.

To be fair, player interest wasn't the only problem they were facing, or even the chief one. Without a subscription fee, they were experimenting with how to monetize the game as much as anything else, and that went... well, as rocky as most of their experimentation in S1. Between the lockbox snafu and the difficulty creating skins with a wide enough appeal... anyway, point is, financially, they had a few different problems impacting sustainability.

While there is no objectively set time frame on when you need to produce new expansions, around every 18 months is the pattern most MMOs follow. And if Anet could keep to the 2-2.5 month pattern they originally tried to set, that would be 7-9 releases per season, but we know they can't keep to that pattern, and have instead fallen into a 3 month pattern, and a 3 month pattern would be 6 episodes.

They were explicit from the outset that the window was 2-3 months. Yes, the first three releases of S3 were all on the shorter end of that window, but development of those releases also presumably benefited from the post-HoT content drought. Ditto for Daybreak, which had PoF buying extra time. They didn't slip until Bug in the System (by a week) and Long Live the Lich (by three weeks).

[draxynnic.3719]

The statement on Joko went pretty much like this:

Because Joko was essentially a 'comic relief' figure, the writers were unsure that they could make him a convincing villain without completely changing his character, so they didn't want to give him a long arc in case it flopped. They then proceeded to pull it off much better than they'd expected, and regretted cutting it short, but by then it was too late to go back and extend Joko's lifespan.

Was it a mistake? That's a more complicated decision. They might now think that it would have been better for Joko to have had more screentime, but they made the decision based on what they knew at the time, and choosing to limit the investment in Joko in case he ended up flopping might not have been a mistake. Especially since ArenaNet doesn't have a great track record with non-dragon major villains: both Scarlet and Balthaddon have been controversial to say the least.

(Granted, some of the factors in those controversies would not be in play for Joko, but I could see them being a little gunshy. And it is possible that a sufficiently poorly-handled Joko arc could have resulted in Jokhilbron.)

So... it might not have been the ideal decision given what we now know, but it might well have been a good decision based on the information they had at the time, and therefore not necessarily a mistake.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

To be fair, player interest wasn't the only problem they were facing, or even the chief one. Without a subscription fee, they were experimenting with how to monetize the game as much as anything else, and that went... well, as rocky as most of their experimentation in S1. Between the lockbox snafu and the difficulty creating skins with a wide enough appeal... anyway, point is, financially, they had a few different problems impacting sustainability.

Part of which, in fact, is that they had the idea of monetising it without any paid-for content drops outside of the gem store. There was a lot of talk during what we now call Season 1 about how they could develop the world organically and introduce new skills and other player options without the need for expansions or the like. It wasn't until sometime afterwards that they realised that it just wasn't viable to keep the game fresh that way (in practice, the only new skills that got introduced was an extra healing skill per profession.)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Why would they have a limited number of episodes they can produce each season? Season 1 was over 20 episodes. Season 2 was eight. They're not restricted to a 6 episode duration. And they've shown they're far more than willing to delay plots until they "can do them justice", like how Season 2 barely touched the bandit plot, despite going straight into their territory with Fort Vandal and the like; or how they scrapped the Nightmare Court and Malyck plots from HoT, yet keep such as part of lore with "will get to it someday".This is a rather odd question to ask, and amounts to asking why a popular game can only have so much DLC. Its because each release of something attracts less and less players back, and, eventually, it stops being worthwhile to make more of it. Season 1 is exact proof of this, I recall significantly less people logging in in the later releases then in the early ones because people stopped caring because there wasn't any sign of a substantive release(an expansion) coming. Season 1 was only as long as it was because Anet thought(incorrectly) back then that they could just keep doing Living World, and would never have to do expansions, and they tried running with it, but increasingly lacking player interest proved such a system wouldn't be sustainable.People were burning out of S1, that's why there were lower numbers. There might have been some who were about substantive releases, but most folks were about burning from

needing

to log on to grind content every fortnight else they'd never get to experience it.

Hell, even the devs were suffering from burnout. It's why they switched model styles in the first place.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:People were burning out of S1, that's why there were lower numbers. There might have been some who were about substantive releases, but most folks were about burning from needing to log on to grind content every fortnight else they'd never get to experience it.

Hell, even the devs were suffering from burnout. It's why they switched model styles in the first place.Thanks for restating many of the things I had just stated I guess.

Anyways, back to the idea of LWS5, assuming S4 ends the Elona/Kralkatorik plot I would suspect LWS5 will be like S3 was, a sort of "round central Tyria" hopscotch season where we solve a bunch of problems, but also get small updates to how the core areas are doing after our absence in Elona. I'm hoping we explore a bit of the nrothern Maguuma, and/or the Verdant Cascades.

[yefluke.3168]

wondering why they extended the map to the east so much... compare to the west. Probably . Ep 5 will take place in the east?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I have trouble understanding why it matters if LS4 is 10-12 episodes or if LS4 & LS5 are 5-6 episodes each, except in terms of local currency. The storyline has always been somewhat disjointed among local struggles and the Big Bad and personal struggles. So plotwise, I don't really think it's that interesting.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:I have trouble understanding why it matters if LS4 is 10-12 episodes or if LS4 & LS5 are 5-6 episodes each, except in terms of local currency. The storyline has always been somewhat disjointed among local struggles and the Big Bad and personal struggles. So plotwise, I don't really think it's that interesting.

Even in terms of currency it doesn't matter that much.