Nerf Full Counter

[viquing.8254]

@"Luna.6203" said:

• Most of warrior abilities include FC are melee. You can outrun/kite warrior. Invisibility and blind should help as well.We are on PvP forum, not in WvW or duel arena, game is around points cap/decap and kitting warrior, invisibility and teleport certainly help to survive but hardly to play around points.BtW no need even mirage cloak to win. I eat SB with coremes cause mes > all.The real sarcasm is when mes had a third of his gameplay removed with the justification of "cheesy" when in parallel they give more peg4 and cheesyness to other.

/sarcasm off

The problem is that many casuals warriors get used to be bottle-fed with one skill (something way better than old head butt 3 on 1 during HoT), many warriors today didn't even learn to do proper skill rotation apart from spamming f2 and when they will rework this for X reasons, it will leave the spec with near nothing (like berserker who were just a warrior on steroïd with nice 3 on 1 buttons.).

It will probably be more interesting for warriors to have more choices and be less depedants on 1 skill to be viable.

That said, apart from being distasteful to be randomly CCed when teamfighting while your are not even targeted, FC is not really a issue since they nerf it.

[Crab Fear.1624]

so, am i to assume that warriors have became the counter to our mirage problem?

i sure hope so.....lol...feed me that salt

[Crozame.4098]

Still cant believe people still crying to nerf SB further in late 2018... Seriously, try to stow weapon/bite/predict when the war will use the full counter. SB already has a hard time 1v1ing a number of condi based and some power based classes. it is a class for 1v1s and its not the best 1v1 classes out there.

I really think Anet should try to assign different weight to opinions based on people's rank. In gold 2-3, true, war can achieve a lot, being able to hold or win 1v2. But once reach around plat 2. Its hopeless. Players start to know not to randomly press all the buttons and start to bite and predict skills. Then war is not that efficient in winning 1v1, it gets demolished in team fights especially with condi pressure and/or condi necros.

And, there are different variants of the SB, I was referring to the standard dagger shield defense discipline SB. The sword strength/teether variant is different. But the problem is not a 10 sec CD FC. Its simply a L2P issue.

[mortrialus.3062]

Full Counter is fine. Like maybe back on release with it's base 8 second cooldown (Further reduced by taking Discipline) it was highly over tuned but at 12 seconds base? It's fine.

[ezd.6359]

Luna.6203, i started this topic from explaining why it is not possible to stop attacking for mesmers as example. Also, with almost permanent resistance blind does not work. Also, don't forget mesmers have 2 evades like all others, you can't dodge shield bush, eviscerate, rampage and all other warrior's stuff that hits for 7k+ with only 2 dodges.

At this moment fighting warriors is not worth time spent even if you win vs him.

@Crozame.4098 said:Still cant believe people still crying to nerf SB further in late 2018... Seriously, try to stow weapon/bite/predict when the war will use the full counter.

Try to read topic before answering then?

[Luna.6203]

@ezd.6359 said:Luna.6203, i started this topic from explaining why it is not possible to stop attacking for mesmers as example. Also, with almost permanent resistance blind does not work. Also, don't forget mesmers have 2 evades like all others, you can't dodge shield bush, eviscerate, rampage and all other warrior's stuff that hits for 7k+ with only 2 dodges.

At this moment fighting warriors is not worth time spent even if you win vs him.

@Crozame.4098 said:Still cant believe people still crying to nerf SB further in late 2018... Seriously, try to stow weapon/bite/predict when the war will use the full counter.

Try to read topic before answering then?

You said nerf FC and why. I said don't nerf FC and why. Also i was reacting to other ppl not just you.

Warrior you describe here with perma immunity/resistance/7k hits etc... exist only in your dream. Or you somehow bypassing trait and gear limit.To achieve this dreamy OP war i would require:1) at least 4 specialization.2) be able to pick like 6 trats per specialization instead only 33) like 10 utility slots instead of only 34) Be able to equip at least two stat-amulets instead of just one.etc...On other side poor mesmer got only two dodges.

I said everything i wanted to. Arguments are starting to repeat or they are false so think it's time to end it.

[Toron.4856]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Outsider.6051" said:Full counter has the very obvious counterplay of -not hitting it-.While I don't have much issues with full counter, when I read this argument, I can't forget that It was the same story about on death clones traits who were much more less efficient :3 .

Same about thoses who said just dodge it :You have 2 dodge. You need to evade F1,F2, bullcharge, and some other skills who hit 3-4k +. Hopefully every metabuild have other temporisation tools but the "just dodge" argument, not only talking about war but about, everymeta build is a bit odd. (and concerning wars, there are more spec which when you evade the burst you are safe than them.)

That said it's right that war without FC will no longer be viable. On another side, is being viable only due to 1 skill a good thing ?

what class has only 2 dodges nowadays? theres an evade on pretty much every 5th weapon skill and utility in the game lol

thief only 2 evades? doubt itranger only 2 evades? not rlyrev has tons of evades as wellholo has lots of vigor and yeah only 2 dodges but he can save them up for counter and mitigage other dmg w blocks invulns etc.mirage... lul....war has enough dodges as well

with POF and HOT every class has more than just 2 soucrges of dmg mitigation or dodges...

[Tsume.3490]

@ezd.6359 said:i started this topic from explaining why it is not possible to stop attacking for mesmers as examplee war will use the full counter.

I did suggest to evade / stow and to destroy clones. These can all help you not to attack SP when near, but you seem to think otherwise.

[shoopsy.2357]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Outsider.6051" said:Full counter has the very obvious counterplay of -not hitting it-.While I don't have much issues with full counter, when I read this argument, I can't forget that It was the same story about on death clones traits who were much more less efficient :3 .

Same about thoses who said just dodge it :You have 2 dodge. You need to evade F1,F2, bullcharge, and some other skills who hit 3-4k +. Hopefully every metabuild have other temporisation tools but the "just dodge" argument, not only talking about war but about, everymeta build is a bit odd. (and concerning wars, there are more spec which when you evade the burst you are safe than them.)

That said it's right that war without FC will no longer be viable. On another side, is being viable only due to 1 skill a good thing ?

Clones spawned are active, can be shattered, or do an effect when killed. Basically every thing you can do aside from running from it (blind the clone maybe? lol) the clone will be able to be useful. I see the point in them being similar, but clones are useful in whatever happens to them. Surprised no one pointed out that one problem that clones/pets are burst fodder for when you need an adrenal health proc but can't hit the owner (burst that isn't FC anyway).

On dodges, someone already pointed out that this isn't true anymore (scourges maybe? but barrier). I'll give you one up on that tho, warrior has block, gs 3, 2 dodges, FC (if SpB), and stances to mitigate damage. But honestly, mesmer complaining about warr is still the oddest thing ever.

[Arlette.9684]

@Luna.6203 said:

@jportell.2197 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Luna.6203 said:..................................................

Best post yet. If the devs are reading this, please don't listen to the players asking for a Full Counter nerf. It's literally all we have.

Literally the same thing could be said with Mirages and Mirage cloak. Like for real, if mirage cloak gets nerfed. The spec as a whole should be deleted.

Do not try to compare ridiculously OP mesmer with warrior. Thanks.

@Shala.8352 said:i don't think full counter should be changed. I'd rather nerf adrenal health wich is what is giving warrior the superiority in this game. Or maybe make full counter only not proc adrenal health.

Not-procing adrenal heal from full counter doesn't make sense. It's burst skill and only 1-bar (you need to stack 3).EDIT: adrenal heal was already nerfed. whole defence was nerfed a lot that's why a lot of warriors using strength/discipline/spellbreaker. Problem is warrior without propper sustain is useless s**t. Thats why i keep defence trait line.

---

I can tell you about 50% deadeyes kill them self within 3 seconds with just shield reflect. So i know what kind of people suggesting this nerfs. But i don't want to be abusive so will not say it loudly.

---

EDIT2:

Like seriously think about it:

Complaining about ability that

YOU trigger

.And even if you trigger it

you can still DODGE it

.

And you people cried about Confusion that YOU triggered, See the irony there? :smirk:

Full Counter:Absorb the next attack against you and counterattack all foes around you. Foes struck by the counter attack are interrupted.

 Damage.png Damage: 532 (2.0)? Damage.png Damage Reduced: 100% Stability.png Stability (2s): Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared or taunted. Evade.png Counterattack Evasion: ½s Daze.png Daze: ½ seconds Number of targets.png Number of Targets: 5 Miscellaneous effect.png Unblockable Range.png Range: 300

All of that neatly tucked in under 10 sec CD. Like can I please have your toolkit?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think the radius is dumb (not quite arc divider dumb but close).

[ilmi.5369]

Haven't read a good argument for a nerf of FC. Only bias and complains. Since its release FC damage was nerfed for 25% in PVP and its CD was raised. But even if it hit like a truck (which it does not - just compare it to other classes and their hard hitters) it would be avoidable, so learn and adapt.

Right now warrior has mainly on point sustain and can facetank some damage. That way he could stall fight against some classes also in a 1 v 2 for a while but this also applies for mesmer, ranger, engi, guardian or ele. But this is it, yet. I really wonder who can complain about warrior. Of course as a Mesmer, Warrior is one of the few classes you cannot just rofl-stomp. But that's hardly a good reason.

[Virelion.4128]

@Toron.4856 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Outsider.6051" said:Full counter has the very obvious counterplay of -not hitting it-.While I don't have much issues with full counter, when I read this argument, I can't forget that It was the same story about on death clones traits who were much more less efficient :3 .

Same about thoses who said just dodge it :You have 2 dodge. You need to evade F1,F2, bullcharge, and some other skills who hit 3-4k +. Hopefully every metabuild have other temporisation tools but the "just dodge" argument, not only talking about war but about, everymeta build is a bit odd. (and concerning wars, there are more spec which when you evade the burst you are safe than them.)

That said it's right that war without FC will no longer be viable. On another side, is being viable only due to 1 skill a good thing ?

what class has only 2 dodges nowadays? theres an evade on pretty much every 5th weapon skill and utility in the game lol

thief only 2 evades? doubt itranger only 2 evades? not rlyrev has tons of evades as wellholo has lots of vigor and yeah only 2 dodges but he can save them up for counter and mitigage other dmg w blocks invulns etc.mirage... lul....war has enough dodges as well

with POF and HOT every class has more than just 2 soucrges of dmg mitigation or dodges...

I love how you just ignored necro in countig this.Tbh I am not having problem with FC i am having problem with adrenal health + FC.Remember the times before hot when warrior could proc adrenaline traits by using bow burst skill without hitting anyone? This is the same situation.

Just make adrenal health proc on dmg dealt by FC and we are all fine

[Toron.4856]

@Virelion.4128 said:

@Toron.4856 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Outsider.6051" said:Full counter has the very obvious counterplay of -not hitting it-.While I don't have much issues with full counter, when I read this argument, I can't forget that It was the same story about on death clones traits who were much more less efficient :3 .

Same about thoses who said just dodge it :You have 2 dodge. You need to evade F1,F2, bullcharge, and some other skills who hit 3-4k +. Hopefully every metabuild have other temporisation tools but the "just dodge" argument, not only talking about war but about, everymeta build is a bit odd. (and concerning wars, there are more spec which when you evade the burst you are safe than them.)

That said it's right that war without FC will no longer be viable. On another side, is being viable only due to 1 skill a good thing ?

what class has only 2 dodges nowadays? theres an evade on pretty much every 5th weapon skill and utility in the game lol

thief only 2 evades? doubt itranger only 2 evades? not rlyrev has tons of evades as wellholo has lots of vigor and yeah only 2 dodges but he can save them up for counter and mitigage other dmg w blocks invulns etc.mirage... lul....war has enough dodges as well

with POF and HOT every class has more than just 2 soucrges of dmg mitigation or dodges...

I love how you just ignored necro in countig this.Tbh I am not having problem with FC i am having problem with adrenal health + FC.Remember the times before hot when warrior could proc adrenaline traits by using bow burst skill without hitting anyone? This is the same situation.

Just make adrenal health proc on dmg dealt by FC and we are all fine

Necros dont have tons of dodges or anything but a good necro just kills a warrior easily 1v1 and will corrupt boon + fear the counter.

Also...necro is suppose to stick with a firebrand who heals him ^

Tbf most ppl dont even use defense and therefore have no adrenal health. Strength war is meta atm. At least in higher tier.

[Crozame.4098]

@ezd.6359 said:Luna.6203, i started this topic from explaining why it is not possible to stop attacking for mesmers as example. Also, with almost permanent resistance blind does not work. Also, don't forget mesmers have 2 evades like all others, you can't dodge shield bush, eviscerate, rampage and all other warrior's stuff that hits for 7k+ with only 2 dodges.

At this moment fighting warriors is not worth time spent even if you win vs him.

@Crozame.4098 said:Still cant believe people still crying to nerf SB further in late 2018... Seriously, try to stow weapon/bite/predict when the war will use the full counter.

Try to read topic before answering then?

Maybe shatter when FC on CD? Watch the vid by shorts. He explains everything well enough.

Try to read topic before answering then?I dont understand. I think I read the topic~~ you said FC should be nerfed, and I think its a L2P issue.Another thing, mesmers have more than 2. I think most mesmers run energy on both weapons and dont forget the 25 endurance on heal use. Moreover, you have 3 short CD teleport that can be used both for aggressive or offensive, you have one long teleport, you have 1-2 invisibility. distortion, staff 2.

[viquing.8254]

@Toron.4856 & @"Outsider.6051" & @Luna.6203 :As mesmer I haven't trouble versus wars, thx. If you want a confirmation, on a classic condimirage build, I eat SB or at least force decap on them easily.That said :

@"viquing.8254" said :Hopefully every metabuild have other temporisation tools but the "just dodge" argument, not only talking about war but about, everymeta build is a bit odd.So yeah, I'm aware that everyone have other tempo skills but in the everyone tools there is : teleport, evade, block, high hps, blind, cc, barrier, for example. And only 2 in this list can counter FC (in the sense of not getting hit.), that's why SB is good in a 2m^2 point capture mode versus many class and I found the just dodge argument odd.

That way he could stall fight against some classes also in a 1 v 2 for a while but this also applies for mesmer, ranger, engi, guardian or eleNot really, only soulbeast/druids, spellbreaker and far away to a lesser extent weaver can 1v2 effectivly.If you see one of the class you named doing 1v2, he is facing real popatoes.

But as I said the real unpleasantness (not issue) with full counter for me is in teamfight because it participe at the random aoe CC fiesta where you get CCed without even being selected by the player. But it's the same with Holo shockwave, necro/reaper/scourge aoe CC, FB aoe CC etc.

[shoopsy.2357]

@viquing.8254 said:@Toron.4856 & @"Outsider.6051" & @Luna.6203 :As mesmer I haven't trouble versus wars, thx. If you want a confirmation, on a classic condimirage build, I eat SB or at least force decap on them easily.

Wasn't saying you were. Just addressing the fact that seems a lot of complaints about people triggering FC is from clones and pets. Other than those two things, classes can completely avoid triggering it. And yes, as a mesmer all iterations of warrior should be a very advantageous matchup for you.

That said :

@viquing.8254 said :Hopefully every metabuild have other temporisation tools but the "just dodge" argument, not only talking about war but about, everymeta build is a bit odd.So yeah, I'm aware that everyone have other tempo skills but in the everyone tools there is : teleport, evade, block, high hps, blind, cc, barrier, for example. And only 2 in this list can counter FC (in the sense of not getting hit.), that's why SB is good in a 2m^2 point capture mode versus many class and I found the just dodge argument odd.

I'm assuming the 2m^2 thing is a 2v2 or a 1v2 against the warrior. Said it before, it gets easier to trigger FC the more things flying around. I partly blame the flashiness of each fight.

That way he could stall fight against some classes also in a 1 v 2 for a while but this also applies for mesmer, ranger, engi, guardian or eleNot really, only soulbeast/druids, spellbreaker and far away to a lesser extent weaver can 1v2 effectivly.If you see one of the class you named doing 1v2, he is facing real popatoes.

But as I said the real unpleasantness (not issue) with full counter for me is in teamfight because it participe at the random aoe CC fiesta where you get CCed without even being selected by the player. But it's the same with Holo shockwave, necro/reaper/scourge aoe CC, FB aoe CC etc.

FB, Mirage, chrono (before? haven't seen much of them recently), Holo can try and hold 1v2 on a point. I feel like you already answered your own teamfight question.

With the last nerfs to mirage tho I feel SpB did move up on the ladder in being able to hit side nodes. But thats just me.

[shoopsy.2357]

@Toron.4856 said:Tbf most ppl dont even use defense and therefore have no adrenal health. Strength war is meta atm. At least in higher tier.

Honestly str warrior is so much fun damage wise.

[ilmi.5369]

@"viquing.8254" said:

That way he could stall fight against some classes also in a 1 v 2 for a while but this also applies for mesmer, ranger, engi, guardian or eleNot really, only soulbeast/druids, spellbreaker and far away to a lesser extent weaver can 1v2 effectivly.If you see one of the class you named doing 1v2, he is facing real popatoes.

Holo, Condi Mirage, Chrono, Boonbeast, Druid and Firebrand all have the tools to stall an outnumbered fight for a while. Holo, Mirage and Boonbeast even have a decent damage output. Against "potatoes " you can stall longer against good players you have less time before you have to leave the node. At any event, Spellbreaker can just facetank better and so potentially might not have to move off the point as often as others, although that as well is arguable.

EDIT: Yes, and weaver. The one thing he is good at is standing on a point and not getting killed for while.