Incoming Deadeye Gods & Other Overpowered Vision/Celerity Builds

[SoulSin.5682]

@KrHome.1920 said:Does anyone hits a target less than 3 times within 3 seconds? Even necros don't do that as they have tons of multi hit skills (Axe2, Soul Spiral, GS3...)

A bit late. But the answer is actually yes.Burst GS Mesmer, Power Herald and Core GS Guardian are simple examples.Power Reaper also enters here with Wells. You can drop a Well and Combo with Reaper Shroud + Quickness + Soul Spiral for quite a few hits inside the 3 second window.

[KrHome.1920]

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Does anyone hits a target less than 3 times within 3 seconds? Even necros don't do that as they have tons of multi hit skills (Axe2, Soul Spiral, GS3...)

A bit late. But the answer is actually yes.Burst GS Mesmer, Power Herald and Core GS Guardian are simple examples.Power Reaper also enters here with Wells. You can drop a Well and Combo with Reaper Shroud + Quickness + Soul Spiral for quite a few hits inside the 3 second window.I am not sure whether you misunderstood my posting.

I was stating that 3 seconds of infinite guaranteed crits is basically always sronger than 3 guaranteed crits within 6 seconds because pretty much every build hits more than 3 times within 3 seconds so that the 6 second duration of Sigil of Intelligence is only a theoretical advantage. The latter is only better if you swap weapons while kiting. I mean even ANet confirmed that indirectly as they keep the old functionality for PvP.

And of course you are right on necro. Sigil of Intelligence is pretty bad especially (!) on necro as necro has tons of channeled burst skills that have 6 to 9 hits and the first 3 of these hits are already consuming the sigil (that was my point btw.). Foot in the Grave reapers will benefit a lot from the new version of the sigil and on axe/focus it will also be very strong. That focus5 into axe2 100% crit combo is devastating.

[spartan.9421]

The sigil/rune remake isn't even out yet, quit acting like it's already a done deal and SOOOO overpowered. This game is full of a bunch of whiny people who fear even slight changes, it's ridiculous. For years now people have been begging anet for a sigil/rune remake and now that we have one y'all are freaking the f- out? It's not the end of the world!

[geist.4126]

@"rng.1024" said:

Your assumptions make no sense. You know why we don't see many necro roamers in WvW? - because chances are you will face groups of people in roaming setups, so other options offer easier ways of handling that.

If however, this is about the necro/DE matchup, are you seriously telling me reapers and scourges aren't viable in PvP? That they all go down if there's a deadeye on the other team? This isn't true at all, and if deadeyes can be beaten in PvP you can be sure it can be done in WvW also. Before deadeye we had rangers pewpewing away, but we learned how to handle them. Or some of us did atleast, and deadeye is no different except the only challenge thieves always pose - stealth.

It doesn't matter if he hits you for 50k, any other profession will be just as dead. Learn to play defensively during their burst, then aggressive inbetween. With barrier or shroud even then you can soak up serious amounts of his off-burst damage. You can anticipate his moves just as easily as amy other class, and pressure accordingly. If your argument is going to be why you as a necro can't win a 1v5 and there just happens to be a deadeye amongst them, this isn't a matchup issue - it's about knowing when or when not to engage. If a thief chases you every single class has to counterpressure, so blaming disengage potential is absolutely moot.

You tell me my assumptions make no sense and start your "arguing" why with "in spvp"? You know that there is a huge difference in game mechanics between wvw and spvp, I hope. And sorry to have to tell you. The thing that makes necro viable in spvp is the same that makes him viable in a zerg situation - a babysitting firebrand. Try playing a necro on solo queue and good luck having a FB carrying you before you get killed before you can think about playing defensive.

You very obviously never played necro nor scourge, when you really believe that you can "soak" damage with barrier. On a normal geared scourge your barrier shields you for around 5400 hp, you can get this up a bit, but even when you could triple it, it's gone within 1 skill from a SB, Ranger, thief or mesmer.Even on core a 18k shroud is gone in seconds, because you drain it yourself and by getting hit. You really should invest those 200 hours and roam on a necro before you make statements that are completely useless.

edit: to clarify this again:On deadeye (vs necro) you have:better mobilitybetter defensehigher damagestealth

If you lose this matchup, you just f# up.

[KrHome.1920]

Opinion of a 3000 hour solo Q and solo roam necro main:

You can not win against an equally skilled deadeye! That's not a matter of opinion or positioning. That's a matter of game mechanics. If both players don't make critical mistakes (or for the low skilled folkes: make an equal amount of critical mistakes) the deadeye will win due to superior mechanics. In a deadeye vs. necro matchup the deadeye controls the fight and the player that controls the fight will win it.

The control thing in other words: Fighting a deadeye is a reaction game (in terms of being controlled by the deadeye) for a necro with a reaction-cap that is lower than the deadeye's mechanical advantage. A deadeye player whose skill level is between the reaction-cap and the mechanical advantage will win against the necro. The necro's own skill level is irrelevant when the deadeye is above the reaction-cap.

Side Notes:1) I beat a lot of deadeyes in WvW. This has nothing to do with the fact that deadeye is a hardcounter to necro.2) Wasn't this thread about sigil changes?

[sneakytails.5629]

It does not matter what sigils a Warrior is running, you deny the bursts and you win the fight, you eat the burst and you loose. Pretty simple. I can have 35 seconds straight of quickness and 100% crit and still loose, because I missed a critical burst and was denied Adrenal Health, Might, Endurance and other stuff. Even denying a Warrior one burst can be a turning point in a fight. Its really not that big of a deal. These new sigils will make my life easier, but I will still be facing the same core issues Warrior has with burst denial and having so much tied up into having to land them.

Its going to be the Soulbeasts and Holosmiths of the world that are going to be benefiting from these new sigils the most. Their bursts are not tied directly to their survival.

[rng.1024]

@geist.4126 said:

@"rng.1024" said:

Your assumptions make no sense. You know why we don't see many necro roamers in WvW? - because chances are you will face groups of people in roaming setups, so other options offer easier ways of handling that.

If however, this is about the necro/DE matchup, are you seriously telling me reapers and scourges aren't viable in PvP? That they all go down if there's a deadeye on the other team? This isn't true at all, and if deadeyes can be beaten in PvP you can be sure it can be done in WvW also. Before deadeye we had rangers pewpewing away, but we learned how to handle them. Or some of us did atleast, and deadeye is no different except the only challenge thieves always pose - stealth.

It doesn't matter if he hits you for 50k, any other profession will be just as dead. Learn to play defensively during their burst, then aggressive inbetween. With barrier or shroud even then you can soak up serious amounts of his off-burst damage. You can anticipate his moves just as easily as amy other class, and pressure accordingly. If your argument is going to be why you as a necro can't win a 1v5 and there just happens to be a deadeye amongst them, this isn't a matchup issue - it's about knowing when or when not to engage. If a thief chases you every single class has to counterpressure, so blaming disengage potential is absolutely moot.

You tell me my assumptions make no sense and start your "arguing" why with "in spvp"? You know that there is a huge difference in game mechanics between wvw and spvp, I hope. And sorry to have to tell you. The thing that makes necro viable in spvp is the same that makes him viable in a zerg situation - a babysitting firebrand. Try playing a necro on solo queue and good luck having a FB carrying you before you get killed before you can think about playing defensive.

You very obviously never played necro nor scourge, when you really believe that you can "soak" damage with barrier. On a normal geared scourge your barrier shields you for around 5400 hp, you can get this up a bit, but even when you could triple it, it's gone within 1 skill from a SB, Ranger, thief or mesmer.Even on core a 18k shroud is gone in seconds, because you drain it yourself and by getting hit. You really should invest those 200 hours and roam on a necro before you make statements that are completely useless.

edit: to clarify this again:On deadeye (vs necro) you have:better mobilitybetter defensehigher damagestealth

If you lose this matchup, you just f# up.

So your issue is about skill splits between PvP and WvW? Why didn't you just say so from the start ^^ Anyone can get carried by an fb, but according to that argument firebrand is completely useless without a scourge to babysit - which again doesn't hold up.

At this point you seem to have more of an issue with obvious mechanics - let me guess full condi and having trouble putting stacks on thieves? Everybody suffers from this issue, going hybrid (since you insist on a WvW specific matchup) or marauder would take him 100%-10% in the same attack window.

Just because we want the game to cater to our needs, doesn't mean it will. When you accept the tools the game gives you, and use them appropriately you will be the one winning fights. Nothing wrong with conditiom based builds, but when you can't burst on a stationary target (with minimal cleanse) then it's not really a matchup issue in the least.

[geist.4126]

@"rng.1024" said:

So your issue is about skill splits between PvP and WvW? Why didn't you just say so from the start ^^ Anyone can get carried by an fb, but according to that argument firebrand is completely useless without a scourge to babysit - which again doesn't hold up.

I never said either of that. I said necro needs to get carried in spvp by firebrand. That's not the same as "firebrand needs to get carried by necro". If you are unable to read and understand, maybe you just shouldn't start a discussion.

At this point you seem to have more of an issue with obvious mechanics - let me guess full condi and having trouble putting stacks on thieves? Everybody suffers from this issue, going hybrid (since you insist on a WvW specific matchup) or marauder would take him 100%-10% in the same attack window.

Just because we want the game to cater to our needs, doesn't mean it will. When you accept the tools the game gives you, and use them appropriately you will be the one winning fights. Nothing wrong with conditiom based builds, but when you can't burst on a stationary target (with minimal cleanse) then it's not really a matchup issue in the least.

If I had pvp in mind I wouldn't post in wvw forums. It was you that brought up the "in spvp" topic two times. You said you lose vs. necro on your three year thief experience and I told you that this is a l2p issue, because you don't lose to a necro in wvw on a thief under normal circumstances.The game in its actual state caters bad players. And most of the PoF builds are completely braindead high hitting power builds. Like deadeye, soulbeast and mirage. And again, if you fail to win vs. a necro, reaper or scourge on a deadeye it is a l2p issue, because everything on your class favors you over anything the necro class can bring.

It would be really helpful if you stop moving the goalpost all the time and get back to "I play thief in wvw for three years now and lose to a necro"

[Dawdler.8521]

Didnt it turn out that these where the weakest changes lol?

I wonder if vampirism runes have an icd, otherwise the dominating zergs will just roll over everything while being even more dominating, lol.

[rng.1024]

@geist.4126 said:

@"rng.1024" said:

So your issue is about skill splits between PvP and WvW? Why didn't you just say so from the start ^^ Anyone can get carried by an fb, but according to that argument firebrand is completely useless without a scourge to babysit - which again doesn't hold up.

I never said either of that. I said necro needs to get carried in spvp by firebrand. That's not the same as "firebrand needs to get carried by necro". If you are unable to read and understand, maybe you just shouldn't start a discussion.

At this point you seem to have more of an issue with obvious mechanics - let me guess full condi and having trouble putting stacks on thieves? Everybody suffers from this issue, going hybrid (since you insist on a WvW specific matchup) or marauder would take him 100%-10% in the same attack window.

Just because we want the game to cater to our needs, doesn't mean it will. When you accept the tools the game gives you, and use them appropriately you will be the one winning fights. Nothing wrong with conditiom based builds, but when you can't burst on a stationary target (with minimal cleanse) then it's not really a matchup issue in the least.

If I had pvp in mind I wouldn't post in wvw forums. It was you that brought up the "in spvp" topic two times. You said you lose vs. necro on your three year thief experience and I told you that this is a l2p issue, because you don't lose to a necro in wvw on a thief under normal circumstances.The game in its actual state caters bad players. And most of the PoF builds are completely braindead high hitting power builds. Like deadeye, soulbeast and mirage. And again, if you fail to win vs. a necro, reaper or scourge on a deadeye it is a l2p issue, because everything on your class favors you over anything the necro class can bring.

It would be really helpful if you stop moving the goalpost all the time and get back to "I play thief in wvw for three years now and lose to a necro"

The only reason I bring up PvP is because it's an even less favourable matchup there - yet necros beat deadeyes every day. So the argument that it's impossible to beat in WvW holds no water.

You remember what I said about necros? Your misquote suggests you don't, so let me refresh your memory: "there are necros" - meaning not all, but a few that can counter thieves even though you might have a different opinion on the matter, which is fine. But then we might as well argue ranged weapons vs necro since you suffer the same issues against say a ranger, or gunflame warr - because stealth we've always had to counter the same way since day one, so any argument like "ye they got that.. AND stealth!" indicates a simple l2p issue.

You know nothing of my skill level on thief, and judging by your statement no good necros either, so it's kind of a hit and miss there. If you feel this is an issue, by all means you are allowed to, but that doesn't make it true for the rest of us.

Is it an unfair matchup? Undoubtedly. Are there other unfair matchups? Indeed. Does this mean you are forced to lose? Ofc not. Are there skilled enough players out there that can even the odds? Youtube/twitch says yes. Do they have more tools at their disposal than you do? If no, then the issue rests on your shoulders.

[Straegen.2938]

Post patch, as expected both sigils bring little if any improvement to the Deadeye table. Hidden Killer with Scholar and Force are still the go-to.

Maybe Vision with No Quarter but that combo adds weapon swap complexity and probably eliminates Blood Sigil since Vision will want to be on both weapons. The DPS change for a new clunky mechanic seems pointless. Having 3s out of 9s with crit is effectively a 33% crit chance while giving up a ton of damage and a multiplier in Force. Celerity is a bit more interesting... Night as well.

[Blocki.4931]

Vision seems bad, as I expected. 3 seconds is nothing and animations take up half of that. Add in travel times and you can't make use of it at all

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Yup nothing as bad as I thought.

Sanctuary Scourge on the other hand.

[lodjur.1284]

@"rng.1024" said:

The only reason I bring up PvP is because it's an even less favourable matchup there - yet necros beat deadeyes every day. So the argument that it's impossible to beat in WvW holds no water.

You remember what I said about necros? Your misquote suggests you don't, so let me refresh your memory: "there are necros" - meaning not all, but a few that can counter thieves even though you might have a different opinion on the matter, which is fine. But then we might as well argue ranged weapons vs necro since you suffer the same issues against say a ranger, or gunflame warr - because stealth we've always had to counter the same way since day one, so any argument like "ye they got that.. AND stealth!" indicates a simple l2p issue.

You know nothing of my skill level on thief, and judging by your statement no good necros either, so it's kind of a hit and miss there. If you feel this is an issue, by all means you are allowed to, but that doesn't make it true for the rest of us.

Is it an unfair matchup? Undoubtedly. Are there other unfair matchups? Indeed. Does this mean you are forced to lose? Ofc not. Are there skilled enough players out there that can even the odds? Youtube/twitch says yes. Do they have more tools at their disposal than you do? If no, then the issue rests on your shoulders.

First off ranger is a god awful matchup 1v1 on necro, gunflame warrior isn't, this is because gunflame warrior is just plain awful overall and because ranged damage is kinda all it got. Ranged weapons are very powerful against necro. Evades are very powerful against necros. Stealth is very powerful against necro. Mobility is very good against necro. (Most of these things are generically good, but they're even better than usual against necro as necro generally lacks these things and/or ways to punish these things).

That some good necros can beat some bad deadeyes isn't an argument for anything. The truth is as necro if you're fighting a deadeye (and a few other builds) there is a limit to how much you can do and your options are basically limited to praying that your opponent is bad enough to actually get hit. Especially in open world because even if you hit a few skills (as power reaper or condi scourge or w/e) it usually isn't enough to 1 shot in which case the thief will reset the fight until you inevitably die.