Incoming Deadeye Gods & Other Overpowered Vision/Celerity Builds

[Riko.9214]

The degree of exaggeration in OP bypass the actual effect of sigil update so far it breaks beyond the edge of the known universe...

What was described certainly would work well against dummy golems though.

As for actual situations relying on weapon swap has pretty distinct consequences such as reliance on a single weapon setup and strong predictability.

But If you do think what you described can actually work, would be really nice to see a video of you doing that. (double so if it is not an edit-queen one ;) )

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Riko.9214 said:The degree of exaggeration in OP bypass the actual effect of sigil update so far it breaks beyond the edge of the known universe...

What was described certainly would work well against dummy golems though.

As for actual situations relying on weapon swap has pretty distinct consequences such as reliance on a single weapon setup and strong predictability.

But If you do think what you described can actually work, would be really nice to see a video of you doing that. (double so if it is not an edit-queen one ;) )

Why is every single person neglecting to notice that my examples are considering the use of Daredevil Runes? Everything I have said is specifically pointing out the combination of Vision + Daredevil runes + Invigorating Precision. And I will make video of this if the sigil remains unchanged.

@whoknocks.4935 said:Deadeye is probably the least of all professions who will benefit from the vision sigil simply because it's an HIT&STEALTH build.He casts death judgement and maybe rifle3 and immediately stealth again, he can't afford to stay 3 seconds out of stealth or a good player can easily gap close, land a cc and oneshot the deadeye, so how a deadeye will make a good use of the sigil?I will be so happy if a deadeye tries to stay revealed for 3 seconds trying to burst me, i dodge everything and i have a pretty good window to counter attack him.

The classes who will benefit more from the sigil are:Revenant, you will love those sword3 hits all crits while the rev is inside your body, and a dodge doesn't cover the full animation, plus sword4.Core guards will melt you even more with greatsword2.Core warriors or megabane spellbreakers probably substitute of hydromancy on greatsword so when you swap to greatsword you will have all crits coming out of greatsword3 and it's pretty huge, or even for the normal combo bull's charge into greatsword2.Power shatter mesmers, the burst is done in 1-2 seconds depending on the player how fast he is to land the burst combo can take even less than 1 second, so having it all crits will make it more consistent and more certain to oneshot.Another one could be axe/axe soulbeast probably using both celerity and vision as soon he swaps to axe/axe set and use axe5 in melee range you are ultradead done more than now.

Now i can't think of others in specific, it's a buff to holo as well who can increase the dps by spamming photon forge autos and the other skills.

1. Hit & Stealth builds are exactly the kind of builds that will benefit from Vision.
2. How will he make good use of the sigil? In the same exact way he makes good use of Hidden Killer.
3. The DE can stay revealed so long as it is safe. This often ends up being quite a bit longer than 3s, especially while traveling in small havoc. Also, not all classes/builds have gap closers or ranged CCs that immediately reach 1500 range. And the DE is not going to get 1 shot when it is life stealing 4k health per second while wearing Valkyrie stats.
4. You're wrong about Heralds and Power Mirage, they'll still need sustained burst to their jobs. Read my previous post.

[Riko.9214]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Riko.9214 said:The degree of exaggeration in OP bypass the actual effect of sigil update so far it breaks beyond the edge of the known universe...

What was described certainly would work well against dummy golems though.

As for actual situations relying on weapon swap has pretty distinct consequences such as reliance on a single weapon setup and strong predictability.

But If you do think what you described can actually work, would be really nice to see a video of you doing that. (double so if it is not an edit-queen one ;) )

Why is every single person neglecting to notice that my examples are considering the use of Daredevil Runes? Everything I have said is specifically pointing out the combination of Vision + Daredevil runes + Invigorating Precision. And I will make video of this if the sigil remains unchanged.

Because said combination does not belong in the same build?

DD-runes > carves into damage (substantial reduction of ferocity + dmg mult comparing to scholar) and it does not go well with burst-reliant builds.

IP > so you want to rely on 100% burst-crits and simultaneously build for fury? Without fury healing is pretty low.

On top of that in your description DE supposed to use dodges only for stealth (so can not dodge while revealed) which makes me wonder how he is going to avoid 9000+ knockdowns, pulls, other CC and 20K+ bursts that will rain on him once he used the opener. Or if he does uses dodges for avoiding attacks DD-runes becomes useless as they boost only a single hit while on rifle DE out of stealth burst is multi-hit only.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"MUDse.7623"

• You implied that Intelligence sigil is better than Vision. Intelligence sigils won't hold up for the Rifle 3 spam, which is important for might stacking and ultimately finishing the opponent off. Vision will hold up for 3s, which is longer than Hidden Killer's 2s. Waiting 9s in between the use of Vision will be no problem paired with Daredevil Runes.
• It seems that you're not considering the use of Daredevil Runes in conjunction with Death's Judgement. I assume you'll respond with "Real DE's wouldn't use Daredevil Runes" and normally I would agree, but things are going to change when Vision is released and people start swapping Hidden Killer for Invigorating Precision. You can also say "That's clunky playstyle and the healing is hardly worth it" but we both know that statement couldn't be further from the truth. It's pretty common for a DE to land about 20k damage in about 1 second. 20% of 20k is 4k. So you're gonna tell me that having 4k life steal every 1s is hardly worth it? Like do you realize how many NPCs and creatures with high vitality are walking around those wvw maps? A DE is going to be able to stay engaged in combat with his opponent, but now be able to random target a Dolyak or something, and pewpew himself to full health in about 2s. This isn't even to mention just being able to bully other builds with sheer stand off power. Healing around 4k per second is some serious sustain so don't act like it isn't.

Deadeye doesn't maintain 20k DPS, only in a spike. So saying 4k healing a second is misleading at best.

[ChillyKoti.1928]

They should think twice before releasing these sigils and runes. What the game needs less is more ways to just oneshot people. Heck... If the game is now just a "one shot people or get one shotted game", than next step will be to remove HP bar (because getting one shot says it all, one _ shot.) and rename GW2 to any FPS game out there.

[Turk.5460]

@Noha.3749 said:Ranger - LB knocbkack - > Mad deeps from 1800 range = leads to dunk

This is going to be the worst offender by far.

@OP, the DE opponents you describe are not going to swap from Scholar. Your scenario of a perfect 100% valk crit w/no HK burst also requires ambients to be around or to...take fall damage. You're really reaching for straws here.

[SoulSin.5682]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Deadeye's are going to start choosing this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision over Hidden Killer. I mean... come on man ^^ For those who don't want to click that link and read it, just know that "Invigorating Precision" will heal the DE for 20% of his critical hit's damage, every time he deals damage, with no cool down.

That's actually a bad idea.You are forcing yourself to change weapons to burst a target. Not only you are giving up a second weapon (like D/P) because you need dual rifle.

Adding up to this situation, that means that you only have enough crit chance to burst someone every 9 seconds windows. That's many times slower than Hidden Killer that allows the bonus every time DE leaves stealth.

Sigil of Inteligence has always been a bad sigil for Thieves, this change won't make that difference.

[Arlette.9684]

I'm way more worried about Vision on a few other professions, than I am about DE having it. He still has to hit you first, you can still dodge/block/invuln, not much has changed. They might run a little tougher, but tougher compared to what? Bunkers get 1 shotted just as well. Active defense means much more than stat defense.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

I am thinking we don't need to worry about this.

It will end up nerfed in a week when people abuse this sigil and combos like this in Raids.

[babazhook.6805]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:So this is what's going to happen on 11/13/2018 in wvw:

• People will log in on their Deadeyes
• New (Sigil of Vision): Critically strike an enemy for 3 seconds after swapping to this weapon in combat. (Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Daredevil
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valkyrie
• They begin selecting https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision over https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer
• On that day, a new breed of double vitality virtually unkillable non stop damage burst healing Deadeyes will be born, that maintain or even surpass their rate of critical hits on bursts while coming out of stealth. And the forums will rain salt unlike anything the design team has seen before in the entire 6 years of Guild Wars 2's longevity.

Seriously, Deadeyes are already debatably overpowered and very ridiculous to deal with. They are ridiculous to the point that only about half the classes in the game even possess mechanics to actually deal with them. Arenanet, if you guys follow through with the Sigil of Vision and release it the way it is now, Deadeyes are going to become absolutely game breaking. Why? Because of how Deadeye is actually played:

• Tap a creature or player, or even fall off a tower to enter combat
• Weapon swap to proc Sigil of Vision
• Burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate
• Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the Rune of the Daredevil critical
• Death's Judgement
• Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the rune of the Daredevil critical
• Death's Judgement
• Weapon swap is off CD, swap weapons again to proc Sigil of Vision
• Heavy burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate
• So on and so forth, infinitely cycling, now with a greater critical hit rate than it had before, double the vitality, and literally infinite healing that never stops.

Some other classes/builds will also have ways to benefit from or debatably exploit the Sigil of Vision, but not to the degree of abuse that the Deadeye will present. Some classes/builds won't benefit from this new powerful effect at all, which is a bad thing. It will present entirely new balance issues where classes/builds that can utilize and benefit from the Sigil of Vision will become much tankier than usual while maintaining their burst, whereas other classes that cannot benefit from the Sigil of Vision, will need to keep wearing their Berserker gear, and miss out on all of that extra vitality. This is going to make certain classes/build very over powered.

To give you an example of what I mean: Right now, burst classes generally need to wear Berserker for optimal burst, leaving them squishy. The only class that maintains optimal burst while having a lot of additional vitality is the Core Guardian, due to its trait lines involving retaliation where it grants +50% critical hit rate. The retal + constant fury allows the Core Guardian to wear Valkyrie stats. It is important to point out here that this and this alone allows a Core Guardian to transcend out of the tier of other Core Classes and contend in competitive modes against HoT and PoF metas. If this effect begins happening with HoT and PoF metas, the classes/builds that benefit from it will transcend out of their current tier, and create an entirely new tier of competitive builds, leaving all of the others behind in the old tier which will no longer be viable vs. the new tier of bursters who have maintained all of their damage, while nearly doubling their health values.

I'm going to call it now, the obvious culprits that will benefit too greatly from the Sigil of Vision and its synergy with stats like Valkyrie + Daredevil Runes:

1. Deadeye "OMG accurately describes what's going to happen here" Actually most Thief based builds are going to be monstrous with the above effect.
2. Warrior/Spellbreaker "Sigil of Vision will make Core Warrior an unusually powerful 1v1 roamer, and Spellbreaker will be an unkillable boulder that rolls around and goes wherever it wants to, while maintaining its Berserker burst damage"
3. Maul/Worldly Impact 1-Shot Soulbeast "I'm talking actual single strike 35k+ builds, they'll be able to pull off their gimmick with much more safety"
4. Reaper "Boy that's gonna be a lot of extra vitality and life force while maintaining all of that Berserker damage"
5. Holosmith "Double vita while maintaining all that Berserker burst in forge and crits with Rifle 3 & 5 on dodge rolls!!"

Does anyone notice the pattern here? The power based builds that can burst with Vision and then go defensive for 9s while dodge rolling and landing powerful single strike skills that benefit from Daredevil, are going to be overpowered, though none quite to the degree of the Deadeye. Warrior/Spellbreaker can 3s burst each weapon swap with vision and land powerful skill criticals like Eviscerate during the 9s CD while dodge rolling around. Soulbeasts will do the same thing by bursting with LB on the 3s vision, and landing Mauls/WIs during the 9s CD. Reapers & Holos going in and out of Shroud/Forge are counted as weapon swaps, setting them up for 3s bursting, and then in the meantime of those 9s CDs, they just lands skills after dodge rolling like Engi Rifle 3 & 5, or Reaper GS 2 & 5. And we aren't even talking fury buffs yet or things like banners & class effects that stack a character/party with flat crit rate. These builds that I mentioned will likely be running around with about 30% to 50% flat crit rate on top of those guaranteed crits, on top of that mega vita. It's gonna get silly I tell ya, silly.

Any classes/builds not mentioned in that list won't so heavily benefit from this new powerful effect that vision is going to create. Guardians won't need it, DH will still need flat crit rate to perform its role, FB is a support anyway, Berserker is just not viable competitively, Ranger doesn't have WI to follow through with the Mauls and would likely still need flat crit rate, Druid is not a burst class, Engi & Scrapper just don't have the design to benefit, Ele needs to be sustain with heal to be viable at all, Mesmer builds require too much combo to benefit from anything other than the 3s burst every 9s, and would likely still need flat crit rates. And then of course, there is not a single condition based build on that list. All condition based builds will fall behind competitively for obvious reasons. Now the builds listed here in this paragraph are already the builds that struggle competitively. With the release of vision, they will in no way be viable at all.

Arenanet, please reconsider releasing Sigil of Vision as is. If it is released the way that it is now, it will create all of the problems mentioned above. Those problems will likely result in much deserved complaints about competitive balance in wvw, which will likely result in you guys inevitably having to patch the Sigil of Vision or remove it anyway. It would be good to prevent these problems before they happen, so the community doesn't have to play in such an imbalanced intra-class dynamic while they wait some months for a fix.

The Sigil of Vision needs to be watered down in some way, or omitted from the patch release entirely.

Oh and about Celerity, it will boost everything game wide so it won't necessarily create imbalance in the way that Vision will, but boy will it power creep the game. Might want to consider turning that 5s of Quickness per 20s down to something more like 2s of Quickness per 20s. With the amount of concentration floating around the game, 5s is waaaay too much.

~ Thanks for your time

DE can already get close to 100 percent crit rate without investing in a lot of precision. Vision will not change that a lot. I play a Daredevil with nominal precision using the daredevil runes and that build gets a crit any time I wish it with sigil of Intell as is. Nothing will change in the transition in that regard (daredevil has lots of dodges..dodge equals crit next atack. Current intell three attacks for crits you rarely have non crit)

DE is generally higher on crit rate just because of the built in add to kneel shots and use of the CS spec coupled with BqoBk if needed. My current spec does not and will not use new Vision as it already gets a crit 90+ percent rate.

A lare number of DE's already use Valk simply because they do NOT have to trait as much for precision.

I suggest you overstate the impact of VISION on the DE. I would offer the opinion that more DE's will want Celerity Sigil which will have a larger impact on their builds.

[Gandrogh.1530]

Zerk gear give more damage because 10%crit are converted in ferocity. Why ppl use valk ? You are not supposed to get hit that much

[KrHome.1920]

@"MUDse.7623" said:wow.valkyre is already the go to set for deadeye and that sigil is wasted because this here is much better and less clunky to use: hidden killerusing vision on rifle means you have to give up another more important sigil. its really not as great as it seems on paper for a deadeye.only because there is still plenty of berserk deadeyes out there, doesnt mean valkyre is not already better and if they cannot manage with hidden killer they surely wont get their weapon swap timed for their burst.Correct. Deadeye is the spec that benefits the least from the sigils (which is good!). On the other hand power shatter mirage hugely benefits from the sigils - I bet we will see more of them in WvW.

Deadeye has Hidden Killer (2s 100% crit chance) and Be Quick or Be Killed (4s Quickness after marking its target) which are enough to setup its burst.

Force, Bloodlust and Energy are still far superior sigils for a oneshot perma stealth deadeye.

also i think the stacks from intelligence lasted longer wich for many will be a nerf when it gets replaced by vision as they window to use the 100% crit is smaller.Does anyone hits a target less than 3 times within 3 seconds? Even necros don't do that as they have tons of multi hit skills (Axe2, Soul Spiral, GS3...)

[kash.9213]

Well thanks for the heads up, I'll be on the look out for this build.

[geist.4126]

Roaming is thanks to the new oneshot meta already in the worst state since start of the game. I don't think the sigil and rune change will change it in one way or the other.

[rng.1024]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"rng.1024"

Where the Vision is different is that ALL the attacks are guaranteed criticals. So where Intelligence fails by getting eaten up because you full counter and smack 3 clones before hitting the Mirage, the Vision will prevail. Where Intelligence fails from laying symbols with multiple ticks, Vision prevails by allowing the Guardian 3s where every single thing he does is a critical, including 2x symbols, a trap and some GS burst or whatever. That 3s of 100% guaranteed critical is debatably more dangerous than a Berserker build with 75 or 80% crit. Anyone who seriously pvps in this game or other games like it, should know that "Burst has nothing to do with DPS." @"Jugglemonkey.8741" mentioned a loss in DPS, but in most cases competitively, that doesn't matter. The only thing that matters when we are talking about DEs, Power Mirage, Killshot Warriors, ect ect, is the burst, not its damage output over the course of 60s. If that 3s of burst is granting 100% critical hit rate, if it can down you in that 3s flat after cycling through a defensive routine, it doesn't need sustained damage or any form of DPS outside of that 3s burst. The 3s of burst from Vision over the 2s from Hidden Killer will likely make up for the damage loss, but now additionally add enormous life steal factor.

The best example I can stress here is back when I used to main Bunker Druid in spvp. I would often get the top damage stat in matches, even though people would widely acknowledge Bunker Druids as a build that deals no damage. I found this interesting and I had a couple buddies run a test with me. We had two Bunker Druids deal damage to each other over the course of 2 minutes in a 1v1. On a different node we had a couple D/P Daredevils in a 1v1 for 2 minutes. At the end of the test, the Bunkers had dealt much more damage to each other than the Thieves had dealt to each other. Realistically the Thieves are "waiting for that right moment" to land a BURST. They don't DPS each other, but when that burst lands, someone dies. In the case of Deadeye this is particularly true. All the DE does is sneak around and then burst and then disappear and then sneak around and then burst. Is there something I'm not understanding here? It seems that the DE can afford to sneak around waiting for that 3s burst while he uses crit on dodge roll stealths. During that dodge roll phase, he can easily heal to full without ever using his actual heal skill.

Jugglemonkey had mentioned the loss in damage from Scholar and the smaller window for attack. I see what you mean, but I guess we'll have to see. To put this into a different perspective, my forecast is: Slightly lower damage Deadeyes, that still deal plenty lethal damage, that might take a little longer to kill you, but now life steal so much that you can't actually kill them unless they lag or get very lazy.

Which is my point - if you don't avoid the burst now it's the same result. With these sigils they will be tankier with a burst every 18 seconds (again, they need to play rifle/rifle or pistol/pistol to get it every 9 seconds which has tons of counters) and hit like a noodle inbetween. They will have low critrate between these 18 sec bursts with this build, so their wet noodle slaps will heal them the base value - even marauder thieves today get more lifesteal sustain.

We already have boons, LoS, toughness amulets, cc, blinds, weakness, blocks, invulns, dodges, evades, range and reflects to stay safe these 3 out of 18 seconds, we can eat autos for the last 15. I don't see how this will be any different than current SB, Deadeye, Fresh Air Weaver or core Guardian burst - either you avoid it or it's over. This way you will have 15 seconds of breathing room inbetween assaults atleast. Not to mention many professions will overcap on crit chance - so them getting the last 7% in order to get 100% anyway isn't going to be why they win.

As for the rune, dodges are limited. Thieves want more they need to spec acro = even less damage. Vigor can be ripped. Weakness is a thing. Baiting still works.

And tbf, I welcome any change that make guardian symbols viable again.

[MrForz.1953]

@Hitman.5829 said:Things like these make me a firm believer that developers enjoy playing with their thieves and mesmers.

They certainly do.

[Widmo.3186]

@aleron.1438 said:I disagree with the OP. It's going to allow other bursty specs to be less squishy. Weaver , sd holos and other builds than can use insta+low cast time attacks/procs in row will surely benefit from it and can gear with more vitality now.

It's gonna be fun and exciting period of adaptation for everyone!

Be precise, not Weaver but freshair ele (insta and low-cast attacks). Sw/d Weaver needs time to put damage and combine it with cc, I highly doubt if even the opening with Fire-grab that deals biggest amount of damage in shortest amount of time is <3s. Also, Im not sure if Id want that sigil, one slot is taken by Energy which is no way going anywhere, about the other one there are lots other options prolly better than 3s burst with 9s cd, but it will need certainly some testing.

Tbh I don't know, deadeyes might actually receive buff instead of coveted by ppl nerf (mostly one-shot builds, not the sustain ones). Warrior could be pretty insane, maybe holo and reaper, but with those it goes similar as with s/d weaver considerations.Nothing fun for condis, but most peeps doesn't like them anyway, so who cares i guess ^.^ All in all it looks like new imbalance can be a thing soon, now we can be only theorycrafting, lets wait for the patch, then perchance uninstall game.

[bq pd.2148]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:also i think the stacks from intelligence lasted longer wich for many will be a nerf when it gets replaced by vision as they window to use the 100% crit is smaller.Does anyone hits a target less than 3 times within 3 seconds? Even necros don't do that as they have tons of multi hit skills (Axe2, Soul Spiral, GS3...)

its not about the potential amount of hits within the 3 seconds but the window covered. you can kite them 3 seconds easier than for the entire crit bonus from intelligence as it wont be consumed as long as you dont hit. and if they completely rely on those 3 seconds to apply any crits at all, then i dont think its worth it. they will need to kite 6s every 9s , while you only need to kite 3s every 9s - who is going to apply more pressure?

overall the runes/sigils we already know are more a nerf to DE because of lost damage on scholar. however them saying that they replaced most on hit effects makes me hope they changed durabilities proc wich is almost certainly a buff to DE, that proc did delay a ton of kills and quite a few got away because of it. i bet that pack runes will be buffed and used alot more.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:also i think the stacks from intelligence lasted longer wich for many will be a nerf when it gets replaced by vision as they window to use the 100% crit is smaller.Does anyone hits a target less than 3 times within 3 seconds? Even necros don't do that as they have tons of multi hit skills (Axe2, Soul Spiral, GS3...)

its not about the potential amount of hits within the 3 seconds but the window covered. you can kite them 3 seconds easier than for the entire crit bonus from intelligence as it wont be consumed as long as you dont hit. and if they completely rely on those 3 seconds to apply any crits at all, then i dont think its worth it. they will need to kite 6s every 9s , while you only need to kite 3s every 9s - who is going to apply more pressure?

overall the runes/sigils we already know are more a nerf to DE because of lost damage on scholar. however them saying that they replaced most on hit effects makes me hope they changed durabilities proc wich is almost certainly a buff to DE, that proc did delay a ton of kills and quite a few got away because of it. i bet that pack runes will be buffed and used alot more.

Intelligence Sigil procs do go away if you don't use them. It's like 6s or something, they flash and then disappear. But 6s I'm sure is a much longer window than 3s.

[bq pd.2148]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:also i think the stacks from intelligence lasted longer wich for many will be a nerf when it gets replaced by vision as they window to use the 100% crit is smaller.Does anyone hits a target less than 3 times within 3 seconds? Even necros don't do that as they have tons of multi hit skills (Axe2, Soul Spiral, GS3...)

its not about the potential amount of hits within the 3 seconds but the window covered. you can kite them 3 seconds easier than for the entire crit bonus from intelligence as it wont be consumed as long as you dont hit. and if they completely rely on those 3 seconds to apply any crits at all, then i dont think its worth it. they will need to kite 6s every 9s , while you only need to kite 3s every 9s - who is going to apply more pressure?

overall the runes/sigils we already know are more a nerf to DE because of lost damage on scholar. however them saying that they replaced most on hit effects makes me hope they changed durabilities proc wich is almost certainly a buff to DE, that proc did delay a ton of kills and quite a few got away because of it. i bet that pack runes will be buffed and used alot more.

Intelligence Sigil procs do go away if you don't use them. It's like 6s or something, they flash and then disappear. But 6s I'm sure is a much longer window than 3s.

yup they have a timer but longer than those 3s. 3s is really not much when its tied to a weapon swap. you basically have to prepare your burst on one weapon to deliver it on the other. and intelligence is never used as the sole source of crit chance, yet what you suggest ist valk + vision to rely only on that 3s window, that IMO is not something you got to fear from the patch.

[KrHome.1920]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:also i think the stacks from intelligence lasted longer wich for many will be a nerf when it gets replaced by vision as they window to use the 100% crit is smaller.Does anyone hits a target less than 3 times within 3 seconds? Even necros don't do that as they have tons of multi hit skills (Axe2, Soul Spiral, GS3...)

its not about the potential amount of hits within the 3 seconds but the window covered. you can kite them 3 seconds easier than for the entire crit bonus from intelligence as it wont be consumed as long as you dont hit. and if they completely rely on those 3 seconds to apply any crits at all, then i dont think its worth it. they will need to kite 6s every 9s , while you only need to kite 3s every 9s - who is going to apply more pressure?It depends. On reaper the shroud burst is a key mechanic to succeed and shroud entering is a weaponswap. The same goes for power shatter which has an opening burst and then disengages to setup the next burst. Holo Mode is a weaponswap. Swap Legends is a weaponswap.

overall the runes/sigils we already know are more a nerf to DE because of lost damage on scholar. however them saying that they replaced most on hit effects makes me hope they changed durabilities proc wich is almost certainly a buff to DE, that proc did delay a ton of kills and quite a few got away because of it. i bet that pack runes will be buffed and used alot more.It's a 1,66% damage nerf. Totally negligible!

old: 10%new: 5% + 125 ferocity (which is an additional 8,33% critical damage. On 250% critical damage (critical strikes teef) that's a 3,33% damage increase) = 8,33%

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

So this is what's going to happen on 11/13/2018 in wvw:

• People will log in on their Deadeyes
• New (Sigil of Vision): Critically strike an enemy for 3 seconds after swapping to this weapon in combat. (Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Daredevil
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valkyrie
• On that day, a new breed of double vitality virtually unkillable Deadeyes will be born, that maintain or even surpass their rate of critical hits on bursts while coming out of stealth. And the forums will rain salt unlike anything the design team has seen before in the entire 6 years of Guild Wars 2's longevity.

Seriously, Deadeyes are already debatably overpowered and very ridiculous to deal with. They are ridiculous to the point that only about half the classes in the game even possess mechanics to actually deal with them. Arenanet, if you guys follow through with the Sigil of Vision and release it the way it is now, Deadeyes are going to become absolutely game breaking. Why? Because of how Deadeye is actually played:

• Tap a creature or player, or even fall off a tower to enter combat
• Weapon swap to proc Sigil of Vision
• Burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate
• Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the Rune of the Daredevil critical
• Death's Judgement
• Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the rune of the Daredevil critical
• Death's Judgement
• Weapon swap is off CD, swap weapons again to proc Sigil of Vision
• Heavy burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate
• So on and so forth, infinitely cycling, now with a greater critical hit rate than it had before,
  and double the vitality.

Some other classes/builds will also have ways to benefit from or debatably exploit the Sigil of Vision, but not to the degree of abuse that the Deadeye will present. Some classes/builds won't benefit from this new powerful effect at all, which is a bad thing. It will present entirely new balance issues where classes/builds that can utilize and benefit from the Sigil of Vision will become much tankier than usual while maintaining their burst, whereas other classes that cannot benefit from the Sigil of Vision, will need to keep wearing their Berserker gear, and miss out on all of that extra vitality. This is going to make certain classes/build

very

over powered.

wow.valkyre is already the go to set for deadeye and that sigil is wasted because this here is much better and less clunky to use:

hidden killer

using vision on rifle means you have to give up another more important sigil. its really not as great as it seems on paper for a deadeye.only because there is still plenty of berserk deadeyes out there, doesnt mean valkyre is not already better and if they cannot manage with hidden killer they surely wont get their weapon swap timed for their burst.

also i think the stacks from intelligence lasted longer wich for many will be a nerf when it gets replaced by vision as they window to use the 100% crit is smaller.

Nah my good fellow, I think you have overlooked the depth of what is about to happen on 11/13/2018.

Deadeye's are going to start choosing this

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision

over Hidden Killer. I mean... come on man ^^

if you think so, unless my sigils effects are changed i dont think my deadeye will put anything else on the rifle for good reason but explaining that would probably cause more trouble than what you expect from the patch ;)

Anyone who believes people are not going to trade Hidden Killer for Vision Sigil so that they can forever damage burst themselves to full health with Valkyrie stats, will be sadly mistaken on 11/13/2018 when they que up wvw and first encounter a Deadeye God.

The build you propose would actually be a damage loss over both full zerk scholar with no quarter and full valk scholar with hidden killer, would force me to drop either my rage or force sigil on D/P, and lastly would greatly reduce my window for attacking if the opponent decides to randomly block as I weapon swap. Celerity on rifle will be good for the build when using binding shadows (more limited though since you don't have the ini on that build to spam three round burst) but vision is of little use if you're playing optimally.

By the way, deadeye is not had to counter. Get up in their face until you force them to waste shadowstep, then while it's on cooldown time a strong CC skill for the end of their dodge roll and spike. The fact they're invisible is irrelevant, they're still CC'd and unable to defend themselves, and even if you don't kill them they will be forced to reset after that. I do this all the time on my own tanky non-stealth deadeye using binding shadows and S/P, if I can do it so can you.

Just wanted to comment on this after rereading it:

All the DE players seem to be insisting "but it's a damage loss so we won't be using this", but I foresee that when players realize what exactly is happening here and shift their playstyles, they're going to find out how powerful the Vision gear combo will be.

Right now DE is purely a high mobility high DPS roamer. But with the changes I have pointed out, it will only lose maybe 12% of it's top DPS for the ability to be not only a roamer, but also a bully bruiser. So you're gonna have a class that has THE best stealth/mobility/disengagement, still with top 3 build damage capability, that is wearing maximum vitality gear, that can life steal 4k+ in 1s with no CDs.

You guys keep bringing up "disengagements and windows of attack" but my point is that DE won't be so squishy after Vision is released. This is going to change the playstyle a bit. And this isn't even to mention if the DE is traveling with a couple other guys who are tossing him protections & stabilities and w/e else. DEs are going to be sustainy, a bit too sustainy for how much stealth/disengage they have.

I don't know, you guys could be right about it not effecting DE as much as I'm expecting, but even if, that doesn't address what massive divide that Vision is going to create with the rest of the intra-class dynamic.

[whoknocks.4935]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Riko.9214 said:The degree of exaggeration in OP bypass the actual effect of sigil update so far it breaks beyond the edge of the known universe...

What was described certainly would work well against dummy golems though.

As for actual situations relying on weapon swap has pretty distinct consequences such as reliance on a single weapon setup and strong predictability.

But If you do think what you described can actually work, would be really nice to see a video of you doing that. (double so if it is not an edit-queen one ;) )

Why is every single person neglecting to notice that my examples are considering the use of Daredevil Runes? Everything I have said is specifically pointing out the combination of Vision + Daredevil runes + Invigorating Precision. And I will make video of this if the sigil remains unchanged.

@whoknocks.4935 said:Deadeye is probably the least of all professions who will benefit from the vision sigil simply because it's an HIT&STEALTH build.He casts death judgement and maybe rifle3 and immediately stealth again, he can't afford to stay 3 seconds out of stealth or a good player can easily gap close, land a cc and oneshot the deadeye, so how a deadeye will make a good use of the sigil?I will be so happy if a deadeye tries to stay revealed for 3 seconds trying to burst me, i dodge everything and i have a pretty good window to counter attack him.

The classes who will benefit more from the sigil are:Revenant, you will love those sword3 hits all crits while the rev is inside your body, and a dodge doesn't cover the full animation, plus sword4.Core guards will melt you even more with greatsword2.Core warriors or megabane spellbreakers probably substitute of hydromancy on greatsword so when you swap to greatsword you will have all crits coming out of greatsword3 and it's pretty huge, or even for the normal combo bull's charge into greatsword2.Power shatter mesmers, the burst is done in 1-2 seconds depending on the player how fast he is to land the burst combo can take even less than 1 second, so having it all crits will make it more consistent and more certain to oneshot.Another one could be axe/axe soulbeast probably using both celerity and vision as soon he swaps to axe/axe set and use axe5 in melee range you are ultradead done more than now.

Now i can't think of others in specific, it's a buff to holo as well who can increase the dps by spamming photon forge autos and the other skills.

1. Hit & Stealth builds are exactly the kind of builds that will benefit from Vision.
2. How will he make good use of the sigil? In the same exact way he makes good use of Hidden Killer.
3. The DE can stay revealed so long as it is safe. This often ends up being quite a bit longer than 3s, especially while traveling in small havoc. Also, not all classes/builds have gap closers or ranged CCs that immediately reach 1500 range. And the DE is not going to get 1 shot when it is life stealing 4k health per second while wearing Valkyrie stats.
4. You're wrong about Heralds and Power Mirage, they'll still need sustained burst to their jobs. Read my previous post.

Not wrong about heralds and power mirages, both two have a ganking playstyle not great at sustain fights.As I said you will love those phase traversal into sword3 fully crits or the sword4 which is a damageX skill with all the hits being crits.If revenant lately lost his fame to be a skilled and high ceiling profession, with that sigil even a monkey can get results, more than now.

If deadeye will run valkyrie he still has 0 toughness stats in his set, so the extra hp won't save him for getting bursted down, and choose the trait which heals on crits it's garbage, it's a pve trait, if you get caught by a teleport and a CC how that trait save your life if you gain health only by attacking? You must choose between attacking or defending yourself and go stealth again, if you decide to attack you will die.

And every deadeye use shadow arts to regen health while he is in stealth anyway.So if he stays revealed for 3 seconds to try land the burst thanks to the sigil he will open himself to a crazy window of counter attack.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@whoknocks.4935

Herald has no disengage, the only way they can win a fight is by staying on top of the opponent with overwhelming pressure 100% of the time. They are chasers, not disengagers like Thieves or Mesmers. As such, they cannot disengage and come back later when the 3s burst is off 9s CD. Even with Valkyrie stats, it won't be enough additional defense to outweigh the lose in sustained damage pressure from dropping raw critical hit rate. If they don't keep that pressure on an opponent 100% of the time, they are quite the easy kill actually.

Power Mirage is pretty much the same thing but a bit different. Their bursts are so telegraphed that they won't be able to afford to only burst once per 18s when cycling back to GS. They don't have the level of stealth like a Thief, so after Jaunt/Blink is done with, they're a sitting duck. They can only afford to disengage when they know they have to leave. It's not something they can routinely do throughout an entire 1v1 like a DE. So if they don't have sustained pressure, they likely won't be able to kill a seasoned opponent who is ready to dodge the obvious burst every 18s. It will still need to have high raw crit rate.

DE will have a bit of toughness with Daredevil Runes and don't act like Valk stat vitality isn't adding enormous sustain, because it is. Also, with protection from some duo roam partner, Valk vitality + prot is strong. You know what else is strong? Life stealing 4k+ per second is strong when there are random NPC creatures all over every single wvw map, including random veteran creatures by roads, NPCs guarding supply camps, ect.. ect.. ect.. There is an awful lot of pve going on in wvw actually. All the DE will have to do is go take 4 or 5s to smack around a Dolyak or something and get full health. That or target something that doesn't have so many defense mechanisms, like a Scourge.

[bq pd.2148]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

So this is what's going to happen on 11/13/2018 in wvw:

• People will log in on their Deadeyes
• New (Sigil of Vision): Critically strike an enemy for 3 seconds after swapping to this weapon in combat. (Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Daredevil
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valkyrie
• On that day, a new breed of double vitality virtually unkillable Deadeyes will be born, that maintain or even surpass their rate of critical hits on bursts while coming out of stealth. And the forums will rain salt unlike anything the design team has seen before in the entire 6 years of Guild Wars 2's longevity.

Seriously, Deadeyes are already debatably overpowered and very ridiculous to deal with. They are ridiculous to the point that only about half the classes in the game even possess mechanics to actually deal with them. Arenanet, if you guys follow through with the Sigil of Vision and release it the way it is now, Deadeyes are going to become absolutely game breaking. Why? Because of how Deadeye is actually played:

• Tap a creature or player, or even fall off a tower to enter combat
• Weapon swap to proc Sigil of Vision
• Burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate
• Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the Rune of the Daredevil critical
• Death's Judgement
• Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the rune of the Daredevil critical
• Death's Judgement
• Weapon swap is off CD, swap weapons again to proc Sigil of Vision
• Heavy burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate
• So on and so forth, infinitely cycling, now with a greater critical hit rate than it had before,
  and double the vitality.

Some other classes/builds will also have ways to benefit from or debatably exploit the Sigil of Vision, but not to the degree of abuse that the Deadeye will present. Some classes/builds won't benefit from this new powerful effect at all, which is a bad thing. It will present entirely new balance issues where classes/builds that can utilize and benefit from the Sigil of Vision will become much tankier than usual while maintaining their burst, whereas other classes that cannot benefit from the Sigil of Vision, will need to keep wearing their Berserker gear, and miss out on all of that extra vitality. This is going to make certain classes/build

very

over powered.

wow.valkyre is already the go to set for deadeye and that sigil is wasted because this here is much better and less clunky to use:

hidden killer

using vision on rifle means you have to give up another more important sigil. its really not as great as it seems on paper for a deadeye.only because there is still plenty of berserk deadeyes out there, doesnt mean valkyre is not already better and if they cannot manage with hidden killer they surely wont get their weapon swap timed for their burst.

also i think the stacks from intelligence lasted longer wich for many will be a nerf when it gets replaced by vision as they window to use the 100% crit is smaller.

Nah my good fellow, I think you have overlooked the depth of what is about to happen on 11/13/2018.

Deadeye's are going to start choosing this

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision

over Hidden Killer. I mean... come on man ^^

if you think so, unless my sigils effects are changed i dont think my deadeye will put anything else on the rifle for good reason but explaining that would probably cause more trouble than what you expect from the patch ;)

Anyone who believes people are not going to trade Hidden Killer for Vision Sigil so that they can forever damage burst themselves to full health with Valkyrie stats, will be sadly mistaken on 11/13/2018 when they que up wvw and first encounter a Deadeye God.

The build you propose would actually be a damage loss over both full zerk scholar with no quarter and full valk scholar with hidden killer, would force me to drop either my rage or force sigil on D/P, and lastly would greatly reduce my window for attacking if the opponent decides to randomly block as I weapon swap. Celerity on rifle will be good for the build when using binding shadows (more limited though since you don't have the ini on that build to spam three round burst) but vision is of little use if you're playing optimally.

By the way, deadeye is not had to counter. Get up in their face until you force them to waste shadowstep, then while it's on cooldown time a strong CC skill for the end of their dodge roll and spike. The fact they're invisible is irrelevant, they're still CC'd and unable to defend themselves, and even if you don't kill them they will be forced to reset after that. I do this all the time on my own tanky non-stealth deadeye using binding shadows and S/P, if I can do it so can you.

Just wanted to comment on this after rereading it:

All the DE players seem to be insisting "but it's a damage loss so we won't be using this", but I foresee that when players realize what exactly is happening here and shift their playstyles, they're going to find out how powerful the Vision gear combo will be.

obviously its damageloss over the berserk spvp build. but it is also damageloss over the current valkyre build while being less flexible.Right now DE is purely a high mobility high DPS roamer. But with the changes I have pointed out, it will only lose maybe 12% of it's top DPS for the ability to be not only a roamer, but also a bully bruiser. So you're gonna have a class that has THE best stealth/mobility/disengagement, still with top 3 build damage capability, that is wearing maximum vitality gear, that can life steal 4k+ in 1s with no CDs.

a little exaggeration here and there as allways..You guys keep bringing up "disengagements and windows of attack"

but my point is that DE won't be so squishy after Vision is released

. This is going to change the playstyle a bit. And this isn't even to mention if the DE is traveling with a couple other guys who are tossing him protections & stabilities and w/e else. DEs are going to be sustainy, a bit too sustainy for how much stealth/disengage they have.

what makes you think a deadeye is squishy now? i am pretty sure i already am harder to kill then with the 'upcoming' build you described. i think you just have absolutely no clue about current valk deadeye and what is already possible with it. but seeing that you already panic i am not sure if it would be clever to explain that to you..