Please fix game balance

[Israel.7056]

Historically, the only time necro has done really well in roaming has been during condi metas. Every major necro complaint being raised right now has always been true. They've never had great mobility, they've never had invulns or stealth, they've always had a distinct weakness to 900+ ranged pressure. The difference is that in a condi meta necros can just run full trailblazer and run around with like 30-60k effective hp with shroud and 3.5k armor and 2k condi damage and have a lot of relatively long duration semi spammable mid range soft ccs like weakness, chill and cripple to make it much harder to engage the necro in melee or kite it at range.

So this is what happened: epidemic got gutted, the meta condi scourge build got nerfed with dhuumfire nerf and cd increases on the f skills and visual tells placed on the shades and the reaper chill/bleed shout spam build got nerfed when the chilling whatever trait got nerfed. So now roaming necros have to try to play power builds in a mostly power meta (with the exception of mirage) and all the major weaknesses of necro are on full display in every fight and they feel like this is something new to complain about because it's been a while since having meh mobility and being vulnerable to range pressure was this much of a problem. But that aspect of necro has never really changed. The distinct weaknesses of the necro class have never really changed. It's just that the op condi stuff got nerfed, they've added more ways to cleanse into the game and so the meta has changed back to power and power meta just isn't great for roaming necros.

[schokelmei.8271]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:The fun fact about that necro mention is:

• when Necro plays with full berserker or even mixed in valkyrie/marauder the damage is way below that from thief, guardian, ranger, etc.
• you are way more squishy by having no access to invul, mobility or stealth
• you are a glass cannon, above mentioned roaming classes aren'tAnd the fun fact is that people keep forgetting that the necro has 2-3x the eqvivalent hitpoints of other glass cannons and can pretty much instakill them in return. It may not be the best 1v1 but it's so dangerous in smallscale it's literally the first target - we dont pick on them for their lesser mobility, we pick on them because if you down something else and you're gonna get roflstomped by the necro trying to actually kill them.

And it still utterly dominates AoE zerging far, far more than any thief, guardian or ranger dominate roaming.

Sorry, I really had to clean my keyboard after this.2x3 times the equivalent of hp? We talk about glass builds, right?You get around 18k on a build like that + 22k. On my thief with a similar glass build I'm at 16k. In summary that may be 2 times the hp, but on a necro your shroud gets used up without taking damage and you have to build it before you can use it. it's even worse on a Scourge because you get a low hp shield thanks to the crying on forums. An 8k shield isn't worth mentioning. I'd take Signet of Stone over that any time, or shadow step, or mirage cloak.You pick Scourges and Necros first in small scale, because they have no defense besides shroud and they get no healing in shroud.

Scourges work in zergs because of the sheer number of targets and their inability to dodge properly and stick to their Firebrands for survival. You need some because everyone spams boons like never before.Why would you bring a reaper or core necro? I don't know. They are pretty bad at everything. Try playing one in small scale or even roaming and have a nice day.

[Dawdler.8521]

@gebrechen.5643 said:Try playing one in small scale or even roaming and have a nice day.Which incidently would bring me back to the main point. Thats no way to judge the potential of a class. I do it by the foes I meet because that gives a whole lot more perspective. And usually playing power mirage I set a pretty high bar on the necro. But guess what? Even though I can dance around most of them and loose no hp, I have still been roflstomped by power reapers and outsustained by condi scourges.

Its not my fault most necros are running as mediocre meta zerglings and I'm not going to take pity on them when I've seen what the class can do at the helm of good players in WvW scenarios.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:When I see a Necro I down it first because I know it's the biggest threat. And you can thank the big zergs for that. After witnessing all the red carpets of death that Necros put down that just melts everything in its path, I just naturally try to seek those out first and eliminate them to try to keep that red carpet of death down to a minimum. I have yet to encounter a solo necro trying to roam. Every time I encounter them it's in groups with FB and Spellbreaker thrown in to make sure this small group of 5-10 can capture the camp and then go take the tower next to it.

Nah. Roaming scourges are a joke. And if they exist in small groups, theyre not really much of a threat, either. Reaper are far more dangerous. And those Red circles of aoe are a scourge thing. Reaper roamer has none of those. You target the scourge cause its the weakest among all others in the group (good luck pinning down a spellbreaker, a soulbeast, a holo, a firebrand, a core guard, a core warr or a thief). Everyone tries to focus the weakest of all, to down it, and make ppl try to hardres and bomb. Any class built for high damage is a threat if you leave it alone, as someone before me has said. Scourge just has NO passive invulns, like holo or warr or ranger, so its the easiest to kill.

Uh no. You do not play for me. If I tell you I target it because I think it's the highest threat then that is why I target it. I don't target it because I think it's weak. I take out any Necro I see because I have fallen prey to them way too many times to ignore them and think they are not a threat. So please stop trying to tell me how I play.

[Shroud.2307]

@"Nimon.7840" said:I said nothing about 10k auto attacks being okay. I said you need to fully invest in damage and modifiers to reach those numbers which makes the build that can achieve it a gimmick. It forego's most of it's defenses in favor of offense. It's not going to win any serious fights, it's just there to meme and +1 people. And to me, that's where most of complaints sound like they're coming from, people who were +1'd, ganked or 100 - 0'd from a wall they got too close to. Because if anyone actually has trouble killing glass Soulbeast on anything other than Necro, I've got news for you... It might be a problem on your end. Faceroll does not equal OP. The ease of use allows it to carry average players but most good players will steer away from using it because they know there are much stronger options. That's why 99% of the Soulbeasts you meet are playing the same Marksmanship double Stone Signet full Berserker build. Because it's the only thing they have success with.

WvW is literally all I do in this game. I float around by myself a lot as well and I can remember exactly two times since the release of PoF that I've been one shot by a Ranger. One was from a Remorseless build with Winter's Bite (which I have a screenshot of) and the other was from a Worldly Impact. Never been hit for a 10k Long Range Shot. Probably because like I said... It's a gimmick build so very few people are going to use it.

Damage is too high across the board. It isn't an issue strictly related to Soulbeast. It's just the biggest offender because it's the easiest to use. It's a build for bads that kills bads. And yes I'm including myself in that category if it makes you feel better. You don't have to be eSports to understand that easy attracts stupid, OP attracts good.

Reduce "Sic 'Em!" to +20%, or even +10% damage for the Soulbeast instead of the current +40%. It will solve a lot of issues with Soulbeasts damage.

[schokelmei.8271]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:Try playing one in small scale or even roaming and have a nice day.Which incidently would bring me back to the main point. Thats no way to judge the potential of a class. I do it by the foes I meet because that gives a whole lot more perspective. And usually playing power mirage I set a pretty high bar on the necro. But guess what? Even though I can dance around most of them and loose no hp, I have still been roflstomped by power reapers and outsustained by condi scourges.

Its not my fault most necros are running as mediocre meta zerglings and I'm not going to take pity on them when I've seen what the class can do at the helm of good players in WvW scenarios.

Your experience isn't an indicator for the state of a class. Neither is mine. But in a normal 1v1 situation with equally skilled opponents you can't beat any mirage on a reaper. If that happens the mirage made really bad mistakes like facetanking reaper shroud and the reaper hasn't made a single error. In any case it doesn't say much about the balancing of the game. That's what the numbers are for.In PvP necro always works, when it has a strong pocket healer and it doesn't get focused. Which means you only are useful in team fights. What works in pvp doesn't work in WvW small scale, because the stats are way higher and most other classes scale way better with the higher stats.

As said before. When I fight a zerker/valkyrie thief on a zerker/valkyrie necro, I end up dead in most of the cases. Same goes for meeting a soul beast, a warrior, a mesmer or any other power build. On a reaper you need to be in medium or close range to deal damage. If you can't pressure your opponent and build shroud you already lost that fight. If you waste your reaper shroud once you most likely don't get a second chance, because you can't build it that easily.If I play similar on my soul beast, I just reset the fight by either using stealth, stunning or rooting, using my owl and greatsword to fly to the moon and come back in no time. I don't even need to outrun them, because my range is always higher and I have a root while one lucky crit ends the reapers existence and my buffs keep me alive.Same goes for core necro (power and condi) with the difference that you can play a bit more ranged, but you still need to facetank most of the power classes and your only effective defenses are shroud, a fear and protection. I wish I could at least corrupt boons .. I mean that class was designed for that. But corrupt boon is laughable in the actual meta. I can't even pressure a soul beast when I put both corruptions on him.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@gebrechen.5643 said:In PvP necro always works, when it has a strong pocket healer and it doesn't get focused. Which means you only are useful in team fights. What works in pvp doesn't work in WvW small scale, because the stats are way higher and most other classes scale way better with the higher stats.Wouldn't that more suggest to you that sPvP in its instanced form is not played as solo as some might assume when queueing into it? It can feel solo to play when you are new to it or when your team is new and heavily outmatched but the balance or gameplay of it never is.

Get that same pocket healer as a duo in WvW and you can suddenly roam (while covering 98% of the scales available in the mode ;) ). If your support is a group-stealther with some tackling ability (like a Mesmer or Engineer) it synergizes even better.

There have been plenty of good roaming groups in the 3-10 scale using Necros.

[lodjur.1284]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:In PvP necro always works, when it has a strong pocket healer and it doesn't get focused. Which means you only are useful in team fights. What works in pvp doesn't work in WvW small scale, because the stats are way higher and most other classes scale way better with the higher stats.Wouldn't that more suggest to you that sPvP in its instanced form is not played as solo as some might assume when queueing into it? It can feel solo to play when you are new to it or when your team is new and heavily outmatched but the balance or gameplay of it never is.

sPvP is most definitively not solo like you say even if matchmaking often makes it seem that way

Get that same pocket healer as a duo in WvW and you can suddenly roam (while covering 98% of the scales available in the mode ;) ). If your support is a group-stealther with some tackling ability (like a Mesmer or Engineer) it synergizes even better.

By support you really mean firebrand

Support mesmer is deadEngineer isn't a powerful support (outside of zergs)Tempest is a meme

FB+Necro isn't a terrible roaming duo but it is far from top tier and it really is the firebrand doing the heavy lifting. You basically have the exact same problems solo necro has (there are plenty of people you can't realistically kill cause you're so slow). Only that it takes 2+ of the linear classes to kill you instead of 1 which makes it at least kinda bearable.

There have been plenty of good roaming groups in the 3-10 scale using Necros.

3 and 10 aren't really comparable

3-4 can still be called roaming if only barely, scourge works there if you have a pet firebrand and just avoid all open fields

10 is a zerg (sans the utter condi immunity of bigger zergs) and we all know scourge is good in those

[Burnfall.9573]

I am very disappointed in Anet. The amount of power creeps with bad designs is disgusting and unforgivable. I strongly advice Anet to restructure the balance team. Yes i am talking about firing and replacing their whole team. 6 years+ of repeated unlearned lessons to turn this game into a fun, healthy competitive environment requires a new team.

Time of 6 years+ fail ideas with poor visions must cease Now!!

Enough! is Enough!

(I suggest to shutdown wvw+pvp entirely)

[Nimon.7840]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"Nimon.7840" said:I said nothing about 10k auto attacks being okay. I said you need to fully invest in damage and modifiers to reach those numbers which makes the build that can achieve it a gimmick. It forego's most of it's defenses in favor of offense. It's not going to win any serious fights, it's just there to meme and +1 people. And to me, that's where most of complaints sound like they're coming from, people who were +1'd, ganked or 100 - 0'd from a wall they got too close to. Because if anyone actually has trouble killing glass Soulbeast on anything other than Necro, I've got news for you... It might be a problem on your end. Faceroll does not equal OP. The ease of use allows it to carry average players but most good players will steer away from using it because they know there are much stronger options. That's why 99% of the Soulbeasts you meet are playing the same Marksmanship double Stone Signet full Berserker build. Because it's the only thing they have success with.

WvW is literally

all

I do in this game. I float around by myself a lot as well and I can remember exactly

two

times since the release of PoF that I've been one shot by a Ranger. One was from a Remorseless build with Winter's Bite (which I have a screenshot of) and the other was from a Worldly Impact. Never been hit for a 10k Long Range Shot. Probably because like I said... It's a gimmick build so very few people are going to use it.

Damage is too high across the board. It isn't an issue strictly related to Soulbeast. It's just the biggest offender because it's the easiest to use. It's a build for bads that kills bads. And yes I'm including myself in that category if it makes you feel better. You don't have to be eSports to understand that easy attracts stupid, OP attracts good.

Reduce "Sic 'Em!" to +20%, or even +10% damage for the Soulbeast instead of the current +40%. It will solve a lot of issues with Soulbeasts damage.

Maybe 40% of the soulbeasts I met last month played oneshot. Or some kind of variation with high damage.Then there was like some druids, some normal soulbeasts and some Condi players.

And they almost always hide in some kind of keep or tower or inside buffed supply camps. So you can't just run towards them and kill them (well they will just run away anyways, because I'm playing sitting duck- necro)

[Israel.7056]

@Burnfall.9573 said:(I suggest to shutdown wvw+pvp entirely)

LOL. Sounds like someone needs a break.

[Dawdler.8521]

@gebrechen.5643 said:In any case it doesn't say much about the balancing of the game. That's what the numbers are for.And what does the numbers say? That there is 5x as many necros as there are thieves on a map, therefor necros are weak? Pros and cons in an RPG class system that gives certain classes advantages in certain situations. Thats how the game is played. Or are thieves also allowed to argue that they should be buffed in 1v1 because they are so much weaker in zerging than necro?

[schokelmei.8271]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

There have been plenty of good roaming groups in the 3-10 scale using Necros.

I just wouldn't call groups of 3 or bigger roaming, because you mostly run over single players or farm people trying to run to their zerg

And as lodjur.1284 already stated. If you roam on Necro+FB you are still on a heavy disadvantage. Most other class combinations are way more powerful and even way more fun. We had one of those small guild groups running on alts not long ago with Spellbreaker, Firebrand (Support) and Druid (DPS/Condi) or SB (Condi) and Dragonhunter (Power) and it's more effective, more fun and especially more mobile. You don't want to cripple your group by bringing a necro of any kind below 10 man (yes, Scourge will work in a 5+ grp, but as said before that's no roaming to me.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:In any case it doesn't say much about the balancing of the game. That's what the numbers are for.And what does the numbers say? That there is 5x as many necros as there are thieves on a map, therefor necros are weak? Pros and cons in an RPG class system that gives certain classes advantages in certain situations. Thats how the game is played. Or are thieves also allowed to argue that they should be buffed in 1v1

because

they are so much weaker in zerging than necro?

Do not compare necro to thief. Necro is a far better 1v1 and Zerg class than thief will ever be. Necro can duel and be one of two main contributors to zergs,the other being fb, they just don’t make good Roamer due to mobility issues

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Thief’s arenet widely known as a +1 due to good dueling capabilities

[subversiontwo.7501]

@gebrechen.5643 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

There have been plenty of good roaming groups in the 3-10 scale using Necros.

I just wouldn't call groups of 3 or bigger roaming, because you mostly run over single players or farm people trying to run to their zerg /.../ yes, Scourge will work in a 5+ grp, but as said before that's no roaming to me.Well that is just

your interpretation

and

your behaviour.

We can't have a sensible discussion of classes, design or balance around that.

It's the same thing Dawdler mentioned earlier in this thread. That's one of the major problems with a dwindling dedicated playerbase slowly being replaced by tourists. Things turn subjective. These forums have never been highly populated with higher order players but there have always been plenty of players who play to provide objective examples of things people speak against here. That isn't as much the case anymore.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

A "Blob" is 15 to 20 people. A "Zerg" is 20+. A group can range from 2-10 people. You can roam with a small group of people, usually that is around 5 people. It's not enough to steamroll over everything, but it is enough to capture a Tower while everybody else is occupied fighting off an attack from a blob or zerg. I've seen many group of 5 roamers running around capturing sentries, camps, and then attempting towers occasionally as well. Roaming is not always just solo. If you roam solo odds are you are going to get caught and killed. It's better to travel in numbers than alone.

[Voltekka.2375]

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:A "Blob" is 15 to 20 people. A "Zerg" is 20+. A group can range from 2-10 people. You can roam with a small group of people, usually that is around 5 people. It's not enough to steamroll over everything, but it is enough to capture a Tower while everybody else is occupied fighting off an attack from a blob or zerg. I've seen many group of 5 roamers running around capturing sentries, camps, and then attempting towers occasionally as well. Roaming is not always just solo. If you roam solo odds are you are going to get caught and killed. It's better to travel in numbers than alone.

A blob is 40+. A zerg is from 10+ (small zerg) to 40 (big zerg).

[oOStaticOo.9467]

Maybe a difference from NA and EU? I always see posted small blob, or large zerg.

[Burnfall.9573]

@Israel.7056 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:(I suggest to shutdown wvw+pvp entirely)

LOL. Sounds like someone needs a break.

Funny thing is, i've been taking more breaks than ever in all Gw2 6 years combine. I won't stop until Anet completely strip down thief and mesmer. I do give Anet credit for the last patch in dealing with them but the root of the problems-their design+mechanic has not changed at all,

Until their core design mechanics are completely design: i'll be the one laughing while playing competitive healthy games by game companies who would never tolerate toxic designs to run rampant in their game especially in 6 years straight.

So yeah! going to spend more time in Pve and with more breaks lol

You Get What You Tolerate

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:(I suggest to shutdown wvw+pvp entirely)

LOL. Sounds like someone needs a break.

Funny thing is, i've been taking more breaks than ever in all Gw2 6 years combine. I won't stop until Anet completely strip down thief and mesmer. I do give Anet credit for the last patch in dealing with them but the root of the problems-their design+mechanic has not changed at all,

Until their core design mechanics are completely design: i'll be the one laughing while playing competitive healthy games by game companies who would never tolerate toxic designs to run rampant in their game especially in 6 years straight.

So yeah! going to spend more time in Pve and with more breaks lol

You Get What You Tolerate

Good,hopefully u leave for good,games better off without immature cry babies that think it’s funny to try and destroy classes that people enjoy all because u cant take a beating, life must be fun for u!

[lodjur.1284]

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:A "Blob" is 15 to 20 people. A "Zerg" is 20+. A group can range from 2-10 people. You can roam with a small group of people, usually that is around 5 people. It's not enough to steamroll over everything, but it is enough to capture a Tower while everybody else is occupied fighting off an attack from a blob or zerg. I've seen many group of 5 roamers running around capturing sentries, camps, and then attempting towers occasionally as well. Roaming is not always just solo. If you roam solo odds are you are going to get caught and killed. It's better to travel in numbers than alone.

I mean it's all opinions really as there are no hard definitions but

5 people really really is pushing it if you still can it roaming

10 is most definitively already a zerg but a small one

20+ is a blob

Most "decent" roamers can easily take towers while being just 2 people (if they don't find sieging too boring and there isn't too many defenders obvs) and the only reason they can't solo is that sieging without someone to talk to would drive you nuts therefore it's impossible to do solo.

However roamers are only interested in fights so taking stuff while "to capture a Tower while everybody else is occupied" generally isn't something their interested in, the only reason I ever take objectives is with the hope that enemy players will show up.

Also if you solo roam on a thief, mirage or soulbeast you will very rarely die actually (if you're at all cautious and care about not dying for some weird reason).

[SloRules.3560]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:A "Blob" is 15 to 20 people. A "Zerg" is 20+. A group can range from 2-10 people. You can roam with a small group of people, usually that is around 5 people. It's not enough to steamroll over everything, but it is enough to capture a Tower while everybody else is occupied fighting off an attack from a blob or zerg. I've seen many group of 5 roamers running around capturing sentries, camps, and then attempting towers occasionally as well. Roaming is not always just solo. If you roam solo odds are you are going to get caught and killed. It's better to travel in numbers than alone.

I mean it's all opinions really as there are no hard definitions but

5 people really really is pushing it if you still can it roaming

10 is most definitively already a zerg but a small one

20+ is a blob

Most "decent" roamers can easily take towers while being just 2 people (if they don't find sieging too boring and there isn't too many defenders obvs) and the only reason they can't solo is that sieging without someone to talk to would drive you nuts therefore it's impossible to do solo.

However roamers are only interested in fights so taking stuff while "to capture a Tower while everybody else is occupied" generally isn't something their interested in, the only reason I ever take objectives is with the hope that enemy players will show up.

Also if you solo roam on a thief, mirage or soulbeast you will very rarely die actually (if you're at all cautious and care about not dying for some weird reason).

10 was never considered a zerg and 20 was never considered a blob.

Hell until, HoT released 20 was standard guild size and now it's 15-20. You don't go calling that a zerg, no body does. And a blob tends to be 50 people, with sometimes having a term, zoneblob for full map aka. 70+ people.

[Burnfall.9573]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:(I suggest to shutdown wvw+pvp entirely)

LOL. Sounds like someone needs a break.

Funny thing is, i've been taking more breaks than ever in all Gw2 6 years combine. I won't stop until Anet completely strip down thief and mesmer. I do give Anet credit for the last patch in dealing with them but the root of the problems-their design+mechanic has not changed at all,

Until their core design mechanics are completely design: i'll be the one laughing while playing competitive healthy games by game companies who would never tolerate toxic designs to run rampant in their game especially in 6 years straight.

So yeah! going to spend more time in Pve and with more breaks lol

You Get What You Tolerate

Good,hopefully u leave for good,games better off without immature cry babies that think it’s funny to try and destroy classes that people enjoy all because u cant take a beating, life must be fun for u!

Thank You! :)

Life is about taking chances, trying new things, having fun, making mistakes and learning from it

'The past should be alearning experience not aneverlasting punishment.What's done is done.Constantly going over theore deals you previouslyfaced will only be a burdenin your life'

[lodjur.1284]

@SloRules.3560 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:A "Blob" is 15 to 20 people. A "Zerg" is 20+. A group can range from 2-10 people. You can roam with a small group of people, usually that is around 5 people. It's not enough to steamroll over everything, but it is enough to capture a Tower while everybody else is occupied fighting off an attack from a blob or zerg. I've seen many group of 5 roamers running around capturing sentries, camps, and then attempting towers occasionally as well. Roaming is not always just solo. If you roam solo odds are you are going to get caught and killed. It's better to travel in numbers than alone.

I mean it's all opinions really as there are no hard definitions but

5 people really really is pushing it if you still can it roaming

10 is most definitively already a zerg but a small one

20+ is a blob

Most "decent" roamers can easily take towers while being just 2 people (if they don't find sieging too boring and there isn't too many defenders obvs) and the only reason they can't solo is that sieging without someone to talk to would drive you nuts therefore it's impossible to do solo.

However roamers are only interested in fights so taking stuff while "to capture a Tower while everybody else is occupied" generally isn't something their interested in, the only reason I ever take objectives is with the hope that enemy players will show up.

Also if you solo roam on a thief, mirage or soulbeast you will very rarely die actually (if you're at all cautious and care about not dying for some weird reason).

10 was never considered a zerg and 20 was never considered a blob.

Hell until, HoT released 20 was standard guild size and now it's 15-20. You don't go calling that a zerg, no body does. And a blob tends to be 50 people, with sometimes having a term, zoneblob for full map aka. 70+ people.

Well that depends on who you ask, more or less everyone i know would refer to 10 as a small zerg and 20 a blob (albeit a small one). I have never met anyone really who has referred to 10 players as anything else, but your experience clearly differs.

To me at least the terms mainly mean how much your individual performance matters, if I play in a 10 man group I can slack pretty hard because me playing top tier instead of mediocre most likely barely impacts group performance. Hence it's a zerg