Ban ArcDPS and any third party program

[Zychuu.7294]

So many repeated threads on the same subject so I can't really do anything more that to quote my own response from here.

Quote from other thread, visit link for full context.
> @Zychuu.7294 said:> > @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:> > Not ONCE have you brought up the real problem that players have, which is when they're kicked needlessly, callously, or without warning due to the presence of DPS meters in the game. Not ONCE did you bring up that the game was purposefully designed with open world events, no DPS meter, no inspection option, and shared loot just to combat the elitism and toxicity that undue scrutiny creates.> > That whole response is so kitten good. I'm not quoting this whole wall of text but good job nonetheless. I believe that this part is really hitting the core of the disagreement. I feel like most people are leaving out ArenaNet's role as a game designer here. After all they are the one creating the game, and our role is to provide feedback, speak up how we like it or not, then take it or not. NOT 'fix' the game to our needs ourselves, and what's worse, often in a way that affects other people around us. And this is what my problem with ALL addons in MMO games is, including, but not limited to dps meters. Sooner or later players who want to play the game they are presented with are expected to use, or at least be measured with 3rd party software being part of neither the game nor design of the content. And this is IMHO where many problems arise from. Groups of fundamentally different kind of players, one playing the game as ArenaNet intended clash with group of people who claim that they have understanding of the game so deep they have right to alter the experience to their needs and visions. Take a notice how I entirely skip claiming whether dps meters are 'good or bad' for the game as I find it irrelevant in this discussion. My point is only that they are not part of the design and the game we are playing.> > Basically I almost feel like this whole argument is entirely invalid at it's core. 3rd part software will always be THIRD party, i.e. NOT part of the game. Allowing certain functionalities or not is a design decision, not 'addon-policy' one. If some people really want dps meters(or any other addon feature for that matter) they should keep asking ArenaNet for including it in the game, not force their vision of the game on random people around them. As long as it is not part of the game... it is not part of the game. Like it or not. Is it really that hard?

[sostronk.8167]

@tethyr.6513 said:It seems like a lot of people subjectively believe that they are getting kicked from groups solely over their lack of DPS. I run T4 Fractals almost daily, and not only would I never kick someone over their DPS, I rarely ever see it occur - and I do said Fractals nearly 95% of the time with PUGs.

I also don't join groups that talk about DPS and immediately drop ones that do. Whenever the moment comes that we might need to kick someone because we're wiping, we always start with 'Who is ignoring the mechanics?,' 'Who is always down almost immediately?', or - the best one - 'Who is the raging know-it-all toxic hot mess?' Kicking that last one tends to immediately fix all performance issues.

ArcDPS isn't the problem. It's a combo of toxic players and players that come to group content unprepared. There is no 'I' in teamwork, and being a nice guy (gal) doesn't earn you the right to be carried. Being a nasty know-it-all (even as the god-tier player you think/know you are) earns you the privilege of getting kicked.

It's usually the guy that's raging that is the problem. Not just in this game. Every game I have ever played. It's the big mouth criticizing everyone else that is the weak link 95% of the time.

[Walhalla.5473]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:Banning ArcDPS would fix about 75% of the problems, while the other 25% will linger with elitist kitten. Banning that dps meter should soley be done based on some people/groups treat other people in raids. That alone should warrant banning of the dps meter.

75% of the problems? Care to explain what banning Arc would fix?

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:I've always thought an interesting group penalty should be in place for people who kick others from dungeon or raid groups. Such as, blocking rewards for the people behind both initiating the vote kick, and those who voted for it. The only way to avoid it, gotta find a new group and start the dungeon/raid over. Then again, if you decide you don't like someone because they're playing a ranger, doing 1K dps less, or not playing your ideal class, and kick them, your rewards go right down the toilet again. Put something like that in place, you'll force change on players.

Congratulations, you just killed group content in the game. With this system you could just enter a fractal and raid group naked and demand everyone to let you in otherwise rewards would be blocked. If you are getting kicked today, its not because of 1k dps less, groups don't care if you do 1k less then ideal. It because you are either really bad ( being involved in a dps race with the bannerslave or support chrono as a dps for example ) or because of outright disrespecting the group ( not reading any description, being rude etc. ). It can be frustrating enough when people join while ignoring the description in the LFG, like joining as a dps when group is looking for a healer or support chrono. With this system group content will be too much of a hassle to play if you need some randoms to fill up some spots.

I'm not sure if people understand that in group content the group itself is more important than the individual. The fun of 9 people in this moment should not be killed by just one guy who doesn't understand group content. The guy who demands that the group should bow to his special build with stats plastered all over the place because this is how he plays, is way more toxic than the group who then kicks him for disrespecting the group and replacing him with someone who can integrate into the group.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:Find your own group and stay quarantined away from the rest of the populace.

The toxicity here is quite ironic.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zychuu.7294 said:

Basically I almost feel like this whole argument is entirely invalid at it's core. 3rd part software will always be THIRD party, i.e. NOT part of the game. Allowing certain functionalities or not is a design decision, not 'addon-policy' one. If some people really want dps meters(or any other addon feature for that matter) they should keep asking ArenaNet for including it in the game, not force their vision of the game on random people around them. As long as it is not part of the game... it is not part of the game. Like it or not. Is it really that hard?

and you are conveniently leaving out multiple facts. The question is not if DPS meters are 3rd party software. If Arenanet sanctions their use, then that is fine. They have way better metrics and tools (like internal build templates) which are not released to the public.

One of the main issues which causes this disfunctionality of the player base is your aforementioned open world content. Content so brain dead, you need no understanding whatsoever to succeed.

Unfortunately this breeds severe incompetence and does not force people to invest any type of effort into mastering (what am I saying, understanding) their class or basic game mechanics. As such this results in problems down the road when faced with more challenging content.

This exclusion was present in vanilla for low challenging dungeons, and it is present now for even more challenging content. Removing DPS meters will achieve exactly 1 thing, make the issue worse since then we are back to uneducated guessing. I still am amazed how people can voluntarily want to return to the state we had in vanilla. It was way worse than now.

I do agree with you though, ideally Arenanet would provide all required tools in game. This is not limited to DPS meters but also includes proper grouping, build templates and group management and analysis tools.

[tethyr.6513]

@"sostronk.8167" said:It's usually the guy that's raging that is the problem. Not just in this game. Every game I have ever played. It's the big mouth criticizing everyone else that is the weak link 95% of the time.

That's usually my experience too. The "noobs" are rarely ever a problem that can't be fixed with a bit of encouragement.

[Dragon Priestess.9760]

I shouldn't have to perform to some player made standard in order to join a casual raid/fractal.

Idc what people think, I have other hobbies and if I'm being made to grind for ascended gear just to be accepted - I'll end up hating everything and leave the game. I'm not into that stuff. I'll do what I want to do, for fun. I don't play to have the best gear. I play to enjoy the world.

I make the effort to learn the mechanics of the raid/fractal. That should be good enough for someone who wants to stay at the beginner levels. I do NOT need full ascended and meta rotation for causal raid/ fractals.

This competitive 'everyone needs to have meta/ do this much dps' crap is not why I'm here.

[Lonecap.4105]

I saw news story about a car crash earlier. BAN CARS, they breed car crashes.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Dragon Priestess.9760 said:I shouldn't have to perform to some player made standard in order to join a casual raid/fractal.

Idc what people think, I have other hobbies and if I'm being made to grind for ascended gear just to be accepted - I'll end up hating everything and leave the game. I'm not into that stuff. I'll do what I want to do, for fun. I don't play to have the best gear. I play to enjoy the world.

I make the effort to learn the mechanics of the raid/fractal. That should be good enough for someone who wants to stay at the beginner levels. I do NOT need full ascended and meta rotation for causal raid/ fractals.

This competitive 'everyone needs to have meta/ do this much dps' kitten is not why I'm here.

You have exactly 1 right, that to your own time. You have 0 right to other peoples time unless you pay them, they are your friends or guild mates or want to help you out of their own free will.

The fact that you are automatically associating damage meters with meta builds is shocking. There is literally no correlation except that a damage meter would allow you to perform on what ever build you choose as long as your performance meets the groups expectations (you know, the other 4-9 people who are investing THEIR time). Group demand varies greatly between training runs, guild runs and high level speed clears.

Without damage meters we would be back at:

• ping your gear
• kick if gear is incorrect

We had that in the past. If you want to go off meta you should be FOR damage meters.

[Zelanard.5806]

@"Applejuice.4083" said:Had two instances today, before anyone comments on gear, my guild and rotation comes from snowcrows to the T, including food. Went in for nostalgia on a dungeon run and got kicked towards the end of AC P2 because "Dps sucks", really? On AC P2? , 2nd instance was at VG was hitting 30-40k+ but it was "too low" and people started to get boot left and right. How do you expect people to learn and stay end game, when its filled with elitism? Ban ArcDPS please. It breeds toxic people.

I've never really had a problem with getting kicked for low dps or not doing my job. But these kinds of programs are intrusive and repulsive. I usually do not play with people who use them.

[tethyr.6513]

@Dragon Priestess.9760 said:I shouldn't have to perform to some player made standard in order to join a casual raid/fractal.[...]This competitive 'everyone needs to have meta/ do this much dps' kitten is not why I'm here.

I'm just going with the assumption you play neither. Tier 4 Fractals requires all Ascended gear or you'd 1-swipe die from agony alone. There's nothing casual about 3 instabilities that require cooperation from all your teammates to overcome. I personally don't have high standards in T4s other than mind where you stand, if you down more than twice in an encounter I'm leaving you down for my own good, and to respect my playtime by coming with a willingness to learn. The Six Gods forbid 2 people are performing that poorly with an IDK mentality, we're going to figure out who's leaving.

[Zelanard.5806]

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that dastardly word - Toxic behaviour.

Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

Have you ever heard of the term "Privacy"? ARC DPS and programs like it, is toxic. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned, It's fine that high end players kick low end players if they don't want them there. It's fine that they advertise for elite parties and that they kick people who do not live up to that standard.But invading peoples private space, is not okay. I urge you to consider how it feels for players who are here to play a game, to have their performance IN A GAME, measured, as though it was some kind of job.The toxicity of these kinds of software, is making people back away from the game, because we're here to have fun, not to work.Maybe it's time for the High end elitist's to accept that this is a game, you're supposed to play it, not work it. Even if you do work it, you cannot by any means demand the right to invade other peoples private space, doing so is not okay.

[sigur.9453]

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that

dastardly

word -

Toxic

behaviour.

Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

Have you ever heard of the term "Privacy"? ARC DPS and programs like it, is toxic. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned, It's fine that high end players kick low end players if they don't want them there. It's fine that they advertise for elite parties and that they kick people who do not live up to that standard.But invading peoples private space, is not okay. I urge you to consider how it feels for players who are here to play a game, to have their performance IN A GAME, measured, as though it was some kind of job.The toxicity of these kinds of software, is making people back away from the game, because we're here to have fun, not to work.Maybe it's time for the High end elitist's to accept that this is a game, you're supposed to play it, not work it. Even if you do work it, you cannot by any means demand the right to invade other peoples private space, doing so is not okay.

you damage IS NOT private. invalid argument,sry.

[Blocki.4931]

You're right. It's not ArcDPS, it's bad players that are the problem and commanders are the sole arbiter of who is bad or not in their group, rightfully so.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that

dastardly

word -

Toxic

behaviour.

Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

Have you ever heard of the term "Privacy"? ARC DPS and programs like it, is toxic. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned, It's fine that high end players kick low end players if they don't want them there. It's fine that they advertise for elite parties and that they kick people who do not live up to that standard.

Exactly, and arcdps helps keep 2 different approaches to the game separate without resorting to unjustified bias against classes, builds, gear or if the moon is in the correct spot at this time of day.

@Zelanard.5806 said:But invading peoples private space, is not okay. I urge you to consider how it feels for players who are here to play a game, to have their performance IN A GAME, measured, as though it was some kind of job.

Yes, and now imagine how it feels for people who have to make up for lacking performance of 1 or more players. I love how people always assume it's a minor difference. Often the difference is night and day. As in a very experienced player will do 20k damage, a decent player will do 12k damage and an incompetent player will not even break 5k damage (for damage dealers respectively).

@Zelanard.5806 said:The toxicity of these kinds of software, is making people back away from the game, because we're here to have fun, not to work.

Then make your own group and don't demand other people to carry you. Join a guild, there is a ton of casual guilds around. See how long people will be willing to take you along when you bring 0 performance to the table.

@Zelanard.5806 said:Maybe it's time for the High end elitist's to accept that this is a game, you're supposed to play it, not work it. Even if you do work it, you cannot by any means demand the right to invade other peoples private space, doing so is not okay.

Except that none of the games data or resources are yours. Read the Terms of Service, it all belongs to Arenanet, every last bit. I get where you are coming from though, you don't want other people to know about you. Simple solution:

Don't join groups.

When you join a group you are effectively entering a group contract (similar to a social contract) with the other players present. You are volunteering to upholed your job in turn for all the others to uphold theirs. That's how society works by the way. It's how any type of group structure works with different requirements by individuals. To then turn around and scream unfair treatment because you can't uphold your part of the deal is insincere.

EDIT: nice side fact, players have 0 ability to read other players performance when not grouped. That is by design and intent. There used to be other dps meters in the past which would read the memory and circumvent this. Arenanet made very clear that you are only allowed to read your groups performance.

[tethyr.6513]

@"Zelanard.5806" said:Have you ever heard of the term "Privacy"?

You don't seem to understand how ArcDPS works. The information it looks at is the same that goes scrolling through your combat log and that of every other player near you. It just interprets it in a more readable and readily available way. It's nothing that the person standing next to you can't find by just scrolling through their combat log. They aren't privy to any information that wasn't already provided by ArenaNet.

[Zelanard.5806]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that

dastardly

word -

Toxic

behaviour.

Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

Have you ever heard of the term "Privacy"? ARC DPS and programs like it, is toxic. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned, It's fine that high end players kick low end players if they don't want them there. It's fine that they advertise for elite parties and that they kick people who do not live up to that standard.But invading peoples private space, is not okay. I urge you to consider how it feels for players who are here to play a game, to have their performance IN A GAME, measured, as though it was some kind of job.The toxicity of these kinds of software, is making people back away from the game, because we're here to have fun, not to work.Maybe it's time for the High end elitist's to accept that this is a game, you're supposed to play it, not work it. Even if you do work it, you cannot by any means demand the right to invade other peoples private space, doing so is not okay.

you damage IS NOT private. invalid argument,sry.

My gear, my inventory, what food I chose to eat, how well I perform that day due to whatever reason, yes, it is private. And when other people can tell me what gear I wear, then no, that's not based on anything you find in the combat log.

[sigur.9453]

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that

dastardly

word -

Toxic

behaviour.

Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

Have you ever heard of the term "Privacy"? ARC DPS and programs like it, is toxic. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned, It's fine that high end players kick low end players if they don't want them there. It's fine that they advertise for elite parties and that they kick people who do not live up to that standard.But invading peoples private space, is not okay. I urge you to consider how it feels for players who are here to play a game, to have their performance IN A GAME, measured, as though it was some kind of job.The toxicity of these kinds of software, is making people back away from the game, because we're here to have fun, not to work.Maybe it's time for the High end elitist's to accept that this is a game, you're supposed to play it, not work it. Even if you do work it, you cannot by any means demand the right to invade other peoples private space, doing so is not okay.

you damage IS NOT private. invalid argument,sry.

My gear, my inventory, what food I chose to eat, how well I perform that day due to whatever reason, yes, it is private.

thats not my opinion, thats a FACT. no use for arguing about it.they can not see you inventory.everyone (!) can see your food.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that

dastardly

word -

Toxic

behaviour.

Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

Have you ever heard of the term "Privacy"? ARC DPS and programs like it, is toxic. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned, It's fine that high end players kick low end players if they don't want them there. It's fine that they advertise for elite parties and that they kick people who do not live up to that standard.But invading peoples private space, is not okay. I urge you to consider how it feels for players who are here to play a game, to have their performance IN A GAME, measured, as though it was some kind of job.The toxicity of these kinds of software, is making people back away from the game, because we're here to have fun, not to work.Maybe it's time for the High end elitist's to accept that this is a game, you're supposed to play it, not work it. Even if you do work it, you cannot by any means demand the right to invade other peoples private space, doing so is not okay.

you damage IS NOT private. invalid argument,sry.

My gear, my inventory, what food I chose to eat, how well I perform that day due to whatever reason, yes, it is private. And when other people can tell me what gear I wear, then no, that's not based on anything you find in the combat log.

None of that is yours. Just saying. Legally all of that belongs to Arenanet. You are even legally giving up all your rights to this type of privacy the moment you are entering the game.

The only thing which is your, is the time invested.

[Zelanard.5806]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that

dastardly

word -

Toxic

behaviour.

Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

Have you ever heard of the term "Privacy"? ARC DPS and programs like it, is toxic. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned, It's fine that high end players kick low end players if they don't want them there. It's fine that they advertise for elite parties and that they kick people who do not live up to that standard.

Exactly, and arcdps helps keep 2 different approaches to the game separate without resorting to unjustified bias against classes, builds, gear or if the moon is in the correct spot at this time of day.

No, it help you nagging. nothing more.

@Zelanard.5806 said:But invading peoples private space, is not okay. I urge you to consider how it feels for players who are here to play a game, to have their performance IN A GAME, measured, as though it was some kind of job.

Yes, and now imagine how it feels for people who have to make up for lacking performance of 1 or more players. I love how people always assume it's a minor difference. Often the difference is night and day. As in a very experienced player will do 20k damage, a decent player will do 12k damage and an incompetent player will not even break 5k damage (for damage dealers respectively).

You don't need a 3rd party tool, to see any of this.

@Zelanard.5806 said:The toxicity of these kinds of software, is making people back away from the game, because we're here to have fun, not to work.

Then make your own group and don't demand other people to carry you. Join a guild, there is a ton of casual guilds around. See how long people will be willing to take you along when you bring 0 performance to the table.

I don't need to make a group to do a dungeon... I don't care for raids. My point was not for me, my point, was that It's toxic. Whether you like it or not.

@Zelanard.5806 said:Maybe it's time for the High end elitist's to accept that this is a game, you're supposed to play it, not work it. Even if you do work it, you cannot by any means demand the right to invade other peoples private space, doing so is not okay.

Except that none of the games data or resources are yours. Read the Terms of Service, it all belongs to Arenanet, every last bit. I get where you are coming from though, you don't want other people to know about you. Simple solution:

The games data, sure, but this isn't violating the games data. it's violating the players choices and right to keep those private.

Don't join groups.

When you join a group you are effectively entering a group contract (similar to a social contract) with the other players present. You are volunteering to upholed your job in turn for all the others to uphold theirs. That's how society works by the way. It's how any type of group structure works with different requirements by individuals. To then turn around and scream unfair treatment because you can't uphold your part of the deal is insincere.

EDIT: nice side fact, players have 0 ability to read other players performance when not grouped. That is by design and intent. There used to be other dps meters in the past which would read the memory and circumvent this. Arenanet made very clear that you are only allowed to read your groups performance.

I don't join groups any more... They simply got too toxic... The friendly and cheery spirit of the game dwindled, and with the birth of the DPS meters and other intrusive software, it got worse... These days I rarely play the game at all, partially because of things like this...

[Zelanard.5806]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that

dastardly

word -

Toxic

behaviour.

Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

Have you ever heard of the term "Privacy"? ARC DPS and programs like it, is toxic. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned, It's fine that high end players kick low end players if they don't want them there. It's fine that they advertise for elite parties and that they kick people who do not live up to that standard.But invading peoples private space, is not okay. I urge you to consider how it feels for players who are here to play a game, to have their performance IN A GAME, measured, as though it was some kind of job.The toxicity of these kinds of software, is making people back away from the game, because we're here to have fun, not to work.Maybe it's time for the High end elitist's to accept that this is a game, you're supposed to play it, not work it. Even if you do work it, you cannot by any means demand the right to invade other peoples private space, doing so is not okay.

you damage IS NOT private. invalid argument,sry.

My gear, my inventory, what food I chose to eat, how well I perform that day due to whatever reason, yes, it is private.

thats not my opinion, thats a FACT. no use for arguing about it.they can not see you inventory.everyone (!) can see your food.

So you say, yet they do. maybe not the specific 3rd party in question. I have not embarked into the world of 3rd party programs because I'm not interested in them.All I know, is that I've seen my gear linked in chat, without me linking it. And that's not okay.And yes everyone can see my food after I've chosen to use it.EDIT: But whether I chose to use food or not, is My problem. If you don't like it, kick me. But don't nag at me.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Blocki.4931 said:You're right. It's not ArcDPS, it's bad players that are the problem and commanders are the sole arbiter of who is bad or not in their group, rightfully so.

Toxic players will always be toxic, but we all know there is a very specific type of toxic player that obsesses over meter results over teamplay - I call them the meter wh***es, because being seen to be winning the meter war drives their behaviour. Damage meters accentuates the problem.

Classic example is the fractal fight that requires 15k dps to beat a boss, and group does 20k, but a player gets bullied because he does 4k on a 'meter'. In this case its the meter that's triggering the meter w - if there was no meter they would kill that boss and be none the wiser. The question therefore is where is a meter needed - and it is only required on tightly tuned fights of which there are only a couple outside of raids. The meter w attend raids ofc, and that's why raiders get a bad name.

[sigur.9453]

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that

dastardly

word -

Toxic

behaviour.

Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

Have you ever heard of the term "Privacy"? ARC DPS and programs like it, is toxic. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned, It's fine that high end players kick low end players if they don't want them there. It's fine that they advertise for elite parties and that they kick people who do not live up to that standard.But invading peoples private space, is not okay. I urge you to consider how it feels for players who are here to play a game, to have their performance IN A GAME, measured, as though it was some kind of job.The toxicity of these kinds of software, is making people back away from the game, because we're here to have fun, not to work.Maybe it's time for the High end elitist's to accept that this is a game, you're supposed to play it, not work it. Even if you do work it, you cannot by any means demand the right to invade other peoples private space, doing so is not okay.

you damage IS NOT private. invalid argument,sry.

My gear, my inventory, what food I chose to eat, how well I perform that day due to whatever reason, yes, it is private.

thats not my opinion, thats a FACT. no use for arguing about it.they can not see you inventory.everyone (!) can see your food.

So you say, yet they do. maybe not the specific 3rd party in question. I have not embarked into the world of 3rd party programs because I'm not interested in them.All I know, is that I've seen my gear linked in chat, without me linking it. And that's not okay.And yes everyone can see my food after I've chosen to use it.EDIT: But whether I chose to use food or not, is My problem. If you don't like it, kick me. But don't nag at me.

nobody can link your gear in chat.maybe, but this is ARC DPS discussion, not random hack that maybe exists discussion.

[tethyr.6513]

@Zelanard.5806 said:

My gear, my inventory, what food I chose to eat, how well I perform that day due to whatever reason, yes, it is private. And when other people can tell me what gear I wear, then no, that's not based on anything you find in the combat log.

With all due respect, Zel, the combat log and system information tells a lot about your character. From the food you are using, to the active boons you're providing, to the conditions afflicting you, and even what Rune/Sigil traits are triggering, etc.

There's more than enough information freely being passed to your teammates by ArenaNet that it isn't overtly difficult to tell if you aren't performing - without even looking at ArcDPS. And if you constantly end up downed or dead, you're telegraphing plain as day that something is either seriously wrong with your gear, traits or skill as a player.

ArcDPS only makes it marginally quicker to tell you aren't delivering if your role is DPS. People can figure it out without Arc, it just takes multiple wipes, and you'd still land on the kick list.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that

dastardly

word -

Toxic

behaviour.

Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

Have you ever heard of the term "Privacy"? ARC DPS and programs like it, is toxic. Not for any of the reasons you mentioned, It's fine that high end players kick low end players if they don't want them there. It's fine that they advertise for elite parties and that they kick people who do not live up to that standard.

Exactly, and arcdps helps keep 2 different approaches to the game separate without resorting to unjustified bias against classes, builds, gear or if the moon is in the correct spot at this time of day.

No, it help you nagging. nothing more.

Okay, you do understand that this statement says a lot more about you than about me right? If I was factually incorrect or made a mistake, feel free to point this out.

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:But invading peoples private space, is not okay. I urge you to consider how it feels for players who are here to play a game, to have their performance IN A GAME, measured, as though it was some kind of job.

Yes, and now imagine how it feels for people who have to make up for lacking performance of 1 or more players. I love how people always assume it's a minor difference. Often the difference is night and day. As in a very experienced player will do 20k damage, a decent player will do 12k damage and an incompetent player will not even break 5k damage (for damage dealers respectively).

You don't need a 3rd party tool, to see any of this.

No you don't. Since I doubt you would be willing to wait after every wipe 30 minutes until people have analyzed the combat log though, let's agree that a dps meter like arc simplifies and speeds up the process.

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:The toxicity of these kinds of software, is making people back away from the game, because we're here to have fun, not to work.

Then make your own group and don't demand other people to carry you. Join a guild, there is a ton of casual guilds around. See how long people will be willing to take you along when you bring 0 performance to the table.

I don't need to make a group to do a dungeon... I don't care for raids. My point was not for me, my point, was that It's toxic. Whether you like it or not.

Okay, works for me. Other people with whom you are not playing with are all toxic. Got it.

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zelanard.5806 said:Maybe it's time for the High end elitist's to accept that this is a game, you're supposed to play it, not work it. Even if you do work it, you cannot by any means demand the right to invade other peoples private space, doing so is not okay.

Except that none of the games data or resources are yours. Read the Terms of Service, it all belongs to Arenanet, every last bit. I get where you are coming from though, you don't want other people to know about you. Simple solution:

The games data, sure, but this isn't violating the games data. it's violating the players choices and right to keep those private.

You don't own any of the data. You gave away your privacy the moment you agreed to the TOS. This is done specifically to not have nutcases suddenly sue developers and companies over such things. You HAVE NO CHOICE legally.

@Zelanard.5806 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Don't join groups.

When you join a group you are effectively entering a group contract (similar to a social contract) with the other players present. You are volunteering to upholed your job in turn for all the others to uphold theirs. That's how society works by the way. It's how any type of group structure works with different requirements by individuals. To then turn around and scream unfair treatment because you can't uphold your part of the deal is insincere.

EDIT: nice side fact, players have 0 ability to read other players performance when not grouped. That is by design and intent. There used to be other dps meters in the past which would read the memory and circumvent this. Arenanet made very clear that you are only allowed to read your groups performance.

I don't join groups any more... They simply got too toxic... The friendly and cheery spirit of the game dwindled, and with the birth of the DPS meters and other intrusive software, it got worse... These days I rarely play the game at all, partially because of things like this...

Great, so everything is working out for you then. Don't join groups and you don't have to submit to other players demands no matter how big or small they might be.

I could go on about toxicity (and how it was far worse without damage meters and way more arbitrary) of pre dps meter times, but I have a feeling it would meet deaf ears with you. Since you are not joining groups though, what makes you so sure your impressions or knowledge is up to date on this issue?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Dragon Priestess.9760 said:I shouldn't have to perform to some player made standard in order to join a casual raid/fractal.You are right. And when you do join casual runs, you don't have to. When i create a casual lfg for fractals i fully expect the joining players to not meet any expectations save two very basic ones (not being afk, and having enough agony resistance).

It's just if you want to join them you usually need to create them yourself (as they can be seen in fractal LFG only rarely (seeing a casual raid run is even more rare, and usually means that a static is filling up empty slots but stilll expecting to lowman it. Casual raid runs are almost always static, not pugs).

It's the non-casual ones that have requirements and expectations.

And that there's more non-casual than casual runs for high tier fractals and for raids is not ArcDPS fault. It's solely a result of content difficulty.