Breakdown of mesmer defenses, and why it's absurd.

[Mbelch.9028]

Jawgeous sums it up pretty well. Thread?https://www.twitch.tv/jawgeous/clip/SarcasticSlickKimchiNerfBlueBlaster

[coro.3176]

My main gripe is that mirage can dodge AFTER being cc'd or stunned. I'm not talking about elusive mind. I'm talking about evading AFTER I land my longer cooldown Magnet to follow up with Pry Bar or Blowtorch or whatever and not spending a stun break or other long cooldown skill to get that effect.

How am I ever supposed to land a CC-burst combo on a mirage if they can counter it with a dodge on a shorter cooldown?

Dodging while cc'd is an extremely powerful effect. It allows low skilled mirages to make up for bad play by dodging after making mistakes in the first place.

It breaks one of the unwritten rules of GW2 pvp combat. That is: If you get CC'd you spend a stunbreak or eat the follow up damage. That's how it works for every other class in the game. Stunbreaks are on long cooldowns (like, 30s+) and take up precious skill slots. Dodges recharge really quickly (like, sub-10s, especially with vigor/traits/etc) and do not take up a skill slot.

[RisenHowl.2419]

Easiest fix for mesmer is to bring them in line with every other profession. If you are invulnerable, all of your other skills are locked. You cannot dodge while cc'd unless elusive mind is traited. Fixed

[Tiipi.6750]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Easiest fix for mesmer is to bring them in line with every other profession. If you are invulnerable, all of your other skills are locked. You cannot dodge while cc'd unless elusive mind is traited. Fixed

being able to attack while dodging is kind of the theme of mirage so you can't realy change that.

[Solori.6025]

@everyman.4375 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Easiest fix for mesmer is to bring them in line with every other profession. If you are invulnerable, all of your other skills are locked. You cannot dodge while cc'd unless elusive mind is traited. Fixed

being able to attack while dodging is kind of the theme of mirage so you can't realy change that.

They would need to redesign mirage from the ground up. Even if they did though. People will still complain. As Pyro said months ago. Mirage is made from a gimmick. It will either be really good. Or really really bad. The community won't allow it to be anything else.

[lLobo.7960]

The fact that Axe 2 has ammo and really low CD on that just blows my mind (pun unintended)

[tinyreborn.1938]

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAb3/GFMDWoBMMjlXDrUvJa43/CgHQ0AQO5IA

scepter+FOCUS or pistol. focus takes desperate decoy, pistol takes duelist's discipline.How about you go and uninstall ?

[RisenHowl.2419]

@everyman.4375 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Easiest fix for mesmer is to bring them in line with every other profession. If you are invulnerable, all of your other skills are locked. You cannot dodge while cc'd unless elusive mind is traited. Fixed

being able to attack while dodging is kind of the theme of mirage so you can't realy change that.

have ambush begin when dodge ends, or there needs to be a penalty on all of the core mesmer defenses when you choose the mirage specialization, as there is with scourge. just like scourge was, it's way too overloaded and there's a precedent on how to fix that.

at the very least distortion should be treated this way, both from signets and from f4. There isn't a single good reason why mesmer should be the only class with an invulnerable core mechanic that doesn't behave the way that every other class's does.

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAb3/GFMDWoBMMjlXDrUvJa43/CgHQ0AQO5IA

scepter+

FOCUS

or pistol. focus takes desperate decoy, pistol takes duelist's discipline.How about you go and uninstall ?

wow, edgy. plenty of people using focus now, great way to peel by creating a gap or set up confounding suggestions

[tinyreborn.1938]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:wow, edgy. plenty of people using focus now, great way to peel by creating a gap or set up confounding suggestions??????????????Ye tell me more how worst weapon outclassed torch/pistol/sword in offhand slot.Do you even know how CS work ? I didnt even mention the rest of your post. Good source of memes like blind =1s invulnerability and so on

[Solori.6025]

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:wow, edgy. plenty of people using focus now, great way to peel by creating a gap or set up confounding suggestions??????????????Ye tell me more how worst weapon outclassed torch/pistol/sword in offhand slot.Do you even know how CS work ? I didnt even mention the rest of your post. Good source of memes like blind =1s invulnerability and so on

If blind = invuln then that means necro's have had invuln since day 1

LOL

[SteepledHat.1345]

The sage staff build needs a shave. Everything else is fine. But, you guys won't stop until it's unplayable at any competitive level.

[Aza.2105]

@Solori.6025 said:

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:wow, edgy. plenty of people using focus now, great way to peel by creating a gap or set up confounding suggestions??????????????Ye tell me more how worst weapon outclassed torch/pistol/sword in offhand slot.Do you even know how CS work ? I didnt even mention the rest of your post. Good source of memes like blind =1s invulnerability and so on

If blind = invuln then that means necro's have had invuln since day 1

LOL

I think what he should of said is mitigation not invul. I can understand what he means though.

[Solori.6025]

@Aza.2105 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:wow, edgy. plenty of people using focus now, great way to peel by creating a gap or set up confounding suggestions??????????????Ye tell me more how worst weapon outclassed torch/pistol/sword in offhand slot.Do you even know how CS work ? I didnt even mention the rest of your post. Good source of memes like blind =1s invulnerability and so on

If blind = invuln then that means necro's have had invuln since day 1

LOL

I think what he should of said is mitigation not invul. I can understand what he means though.

He had plenty of chances to correct it. But instead continued on the invuln direction which I guess is the new meme for the new year.

It's interesting people would consider blind to be a factor in anything when EVERY CLASS has access to some sort of conversion, removal, or cleanse.I would love to see a class that has access to none of that right now.

[shoopsy.2357]

@Flumek.9043 said:As stated and confirmed with videos, arenanet balance devs are ultra casual aka plain begginner level bad.

They do duels on keep , with mystic builds (at least 1 utility is a random offmeta spirit weapon) , and they have reaction time of a skill clicker. Maybe theyre intentionally playing mouse only for testing purpose, but the purpose doesnt matter compared to results:

At THAT level, the game IS BALANCED AND ANYTHING can happen. much fun gj

Oh god I remember Tempest's specialization preview where he died to svanir (or was it the bear). Jesus I quit playing ele for a while when i saw that.

[ferbz.6987]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:wow, edgy. plenty of people using focus now, great way to peel by creating a gap or set up confounding suggestions??????????????Ye tell me more how worst weapon outclassed torch/pistol/sword in offhand slot.Do you even know how CS work ? I didnt even mention the rest of your post. Good source of memes like blind =1s invulnerability and so on

If blind = invuln then that means necro's have had invuln since day 1

LOL

I think what he should of said is mitigation not invul. I can understand what he means though.

He had plenty of chances to correct it. But instead continued on the invuln direction which I guess is the new meme for the new year.

It's interesting people would consider blind to be a factor in anything when EVERY CLASS has access to some sort of conversion, removal, or cleanse.I would love to see a class that has access to none of that right now.

Not a factor, but you are missing the point, whether he is using the right terms or not. Mirage is overturned, overpower, choose what ever word you want. It is a class that has every defensive mechanism every other class has and more (while being able to chain them to be "un-killable" for lets say at least 10 seconds, you know its more tho) AND being able to apply ample pressure to kill any average player in matter of seconds with 0 risk ALL at the same time. How could I forgot... while being one of the most mobile classes as well! Be honest, no one wants to say their main be nerfed but current state Mirage has too much, even after the nerfs, that should tell you something. I will add soulbeasts in as well, not as cheese but close.

[Aza.2105]

@Solori.6025 said:He had plenty of chances to correct it. But instead continued on the invuln direction which I guess is the new meme for the new year.

It's interesting people would consider blind to be a factor in anything when EVERY CLASS has access to some sort of conversion, removal, or cleanse.I would love to see a class that has access to none of that right now.

It just seems like he is improperly using the word, it happens. Its not a big deal. So about blind, yes nearly all classes have it and you can remove it with cleanse. But who spends their condi removal just for blind? Additionally, blind its self isn't a big deal. But when you begin to combine it with lots of ways to negate damage. as well as being able to overload the target with screen clutter and pressure then it can be seen as a problem. I think the point the OP is trying to make is that Mirage has a extraordinary amount of ways to avoid damage while simultaneously dealing it.

If I had to ask you are any other person what is the weakness of Mirage? What would you say? And could you prove without a doubt that if you exploit this weakness you have a shot at winning? I believe the key issue is that Mirage really doesn't have a exploitable weakness. That is the definition of over performing. I'm sure you and others will disagree and that is fine.

What Anet needs to do as a start is switch Elementalist and Mesmer health tier. Mesmer should be a 11k health class not a 15k one.

[Simonoly.4352]

Whilst current axe Mirage condi output is too oppressive and needs to be addressed, simply listing defence options (which can't actually all be in the same build) and then concluding something is "absurd" is, in itself, a bit absurd (there's loads of inaccuracies in the OP too). We've seen all this before - if you list every defence that even a single build can have, loads of builds look broken (which they possibly all are but that's a whole different issue). It's just for other classes, it will be less evades and more blocks plus persistent healing and stability options.

Honestly, it's just that condi output from the axe build. Power Mirage struggles to be as effective despite having access to the same defensive capabilities, which is a good indicator of this.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@"Simonoly.4352" said:Whilst current axe Mirage condi output is too oppressive and needs to be addressed, simply listing defence options (which can't actually all be in the same build) and then concluding something is "absurd" is, in itself, a bit absurd (there's loads of inaccuracies in the OP too). We've seen all this before - if you list every defence that even a single build can have, loads of builds looks broken (which they possibly all are but that's a whole different issue). It's just for other classes, it will be less evades and more blocks plus persistent healing and stability options.

Honestly, it's just that condi output from the axe build. Power Mirage struggles to be as effective despite having access to the same defensive capabilities, which is a good indicator of this.

Read the op, the exact build listed (with options for even more) is capable of everything listed under it.

Power Mirage is just as strong as condi, able to nuke anyone from stealth 100-0. It's just a tiny bit harder to play and isn't as forgiving to new mesmers.

[tinyreborn.1938]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@"Simonoly.4352" said:Whilst current axe Mirage condi output

is

too oppressive and needs to be addressed, simply listing defence options (which can't actually all be in the same build) and then concluding something is "absurd" is, in itself, a bit absurd (there's loads of inaccuracies in the OP too). We've seen all this before - if you list every defence that even a single build can have,

loads

of builds looks broken (which they possibly all are but that's a whole different issue). It's just for other classes, it will be less evades and more blocks plus persistent healing and stability options.

Honestly, it's just that condi output from the axe build. Power Mirage struggles to be as effective despite having access to the same defensive capabilities, which is a good indicator of this.

Read the op, the exact build listed (with options for even more) is capable of everything listed under it.

Power Mirage is just as strong as condi, able to nuke anyone from stealth 100-0. It's just a tiny bit harder to play and isn't as forgiving to new mesmers.

Okay lets read OP together :

scepter+focus or pistol. focus takes desperate decoy, pistol takes duelist's discipline.Focus ...focus...focus? Focus... Did he say focus ?5 blinds which are essentially 5 1s invuln framesNew level of bs and absurd . It seems someone doesnt understand that deny only 1 attack and multiple attacking abilities wouldnt care about it ... How this can be 1s invul even ? Melee blind =/= invul from all range ,from every player and for 1 second. Lets meme train go on1s invuln on dodge with 100% vigor uptimeIt is an evade . There is no 100% vigor uptime ,its not cuccsmith or s/d thief that get 8s on every evade and he have waaaaaaaaaaaay more evades than everyoneinvuln on f4, 1-4s + 1-4 mirrors for an additional 1-4s.Who use it ? Why wouldnt you swap to chaos to reset such OP trait with the new trait? So imba , but still isn't used .(that distort recharge is abit absurd but w/e )2 target breaks, at absolute worst 1s of people trying to see which is the real mesmer out of the pile of clonesI see ambush only or there more target breaks? Or you mean stealth?Clones...they are limited and not a problem to see real mesmer,the only problem is how people rendered like DE with invisible DJ or laser from scepter 3 is invisible and all you see are big numbers instead of the animationminimum 2 stealths, both instant. 3 with decoy, also instant. breaks target again.Stealth always broke target, nerf stealthscepter block, 4.75s CDAgree, lets nerf scepter to hell (im not joking)focus or pistol disable, diversion x1-4, torch disable, mantra disable x2 if chosen. hope you can upkeep stab 100% of the time!You are just listing every possible daze (and only 1 stun from pistol) .What was the point ?P.S Why are you emphasize on blinds from BD while eveyone running perma reflect ? Where is the riot to remove it entirely or at least set cd to 10 seconds ? Permanent immunity to projectiles without any effort, how about no ?

[RedShark.9548]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:wow, edgy. plenty of people using focus now, great way to peel by creating a gap or set up confounding suggestions??????????????Ye tell me more how worst weapon outclassed torch/pistol/sword in offhand slot.Do you even know how CS work ? I didnt even mention the rest of your post. Good source of memes like blind =1s invulnerability and so on

If blind = invuln then that means necro's have had invuln since day 1

LOL

I think what he should of said is mitigation not invul. I can understand what he means though.

He had plenty of chances to correct it. But instead continued on the invuln direction which I guess is the new meme for the new year.

It's interesting people would consider blind to be a factor in anything when EVERY CLASS has access to some sort of conversion, removal, or cleanse.I would love to see a class that has access to none of that right now.

You can shutdown a warrior pretty easily with blinds, just use them while he is mid animation, all of the big hitters are slow af, put blind on him and he will miss, dont tell me that he can activate berserker stance while in animation, that thing has tons of cd and its uptime is so low that i wont count it.

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAb3/GFMDWoBMMjlXDrUvJa43/CgHQ0AQO5IA

scepter+

FOCUS

or pistol. focus takes desperate decoy, pistol takes duelist's discipline.How about you go and uninstall ?

wow, edgy. plenty of people using focus now, great way to peel by creating a gap or set up confounding suggestions

Dont even bother dude, tinyreborn is a hardcore mesmer edgelord that is scared that his specc will need skill hopefully soon.He thinks everyone else is kitten and hes the boss, because he can roflestomp others with condi mirage rn.Hes so overly aggressive protective because he knows how OP it actually is.

Good thread tho, finally someone who put it together.Mesmer player be like: staahp we will be useless in any competetive mode qq.And im just standing here looking at all the hate and nerfs warrior has gotten over the years lol

[Spartacus.3192]

@SteepledHat.1345 said:The sage staff build needs a shave. Everything else is fine. But, you guys won't stop until it's unplayable at any competitive level.

People didn't stop until ANET obliterated Berserker spec to unplayable level so yeah....they probably won't stop till mirage is unplayable.

[tinyreborn.1938]

@Spartacus.3192 said:

@SteepledHat.1345 said:The sage staff build needs a shave. Everything else is fine. But, you guys won't stop until it's unplayable at any competitive level.

People didn't stop until ANET obliterated Berserker spec to unplayable level so yeah....they probably won't stop till mirage is unplayable.FYI chronomancer is in the same state tbhPeople that hype chrono bunker are delusional and being able to kill something that doesnt have any sustain with scepter 3 (which is ridiculous , wont lie xD)Nerf sc2-3 and we wont ever see chrono again except some occasional full zerk 'oneshot' gimmicks@RedShark.9548 said:dont even bother dude, tinyreborn is a hardcore mesmer edgelord that is scared that his specc will need skill hopefully soon.He thinks everyone else is kitten and hes the boss, because he can roflestomp others with condi mirage rn.No matter how they nerf mesmer The Edgelord will be OP regardless . Even with core mesmers mirage/chrono players ask for my builds . Dont even count on it xDHes so overly aggressive protective because he knows how OP it actually is.OP made bs claims (basically a lie ) and sell it as truth .

Focus is OP!!!! ITS HELP SET UP CS! /s

Good thread tho, finally someone who put it together.You are something I described above xDAnd im just standing here looking at all the hate and nerfs warrior has gotten over the years lolYe ,lets forget all buffs and rampage on 72s cd .Unplayable like a renegade /s

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:whoever is in charge of balance needs to be fired and replaced with someone that gives a kitten about the players. every fight with a mirage is a matter of staying alive for 20s while you are completely powerless to fight back, then they just run and reset at will. in 30s it starts all over again. this is obviously not fun to play against.

While I agree with all the above you said. I absolutely don't with that specific part.

Let me explain , the balancing team can only tweeks numbers : shorten that , increase CD this. They aren't allowed to even change a trait or just have to "ask for it" with the developper that designed the spec or bigger autority instance.

All the "issues" you've listed are design issues. There for they come out of the developpers responsability ... not the balancing team. The balancing team is (was actually since the restructure) doing what they can with what they are allowed to do.

If the guy that developped the mirage SPEC says , no I don't want the Dodge while stun to be removed on mirage... then it won't be removed or even touched.

[Derenaya.3479]

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:whoever is in charge of balance needs to be fired and replaced with someone that gives a kitten about the players. every fight with a mirage is a matter of staying alive for 20s while you are completely powerless to fight back, then they just run and reset at will. in 30s it starts all over again. this is obviously not fun to play against.

While I agree with all the above you said. I absolutely don't with that specific part.

Let me explain , the balancing team can only tweeks numbers : shorten that , increase CD this. They aren't allowed to even change a trait or just have to "ask for it" with the developper that designed the spec or bigger autority instance.

All the "issues" you've listed are design issues. There for they come out of the developpers responsability ... not the balancing team. The balancing team is (was actually since the restructure) doing what they can with what they are allowed to do.

If the guy that developped the mirage SPEC says , no I don't want the Dodge while stun to be removed on mirage... then it won't be removed or even touched.

What kind of bs is that? Like, that just sounds retarded and makes no sense.

[RedShark.9548]

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@Spartacus.3192 said:

@SteepledHat.1345 said:The sage staff build needs a shave. Everything else is fine. But, you guys won't stop until it's unplayable at any competitive level.

People didn't stop until ANET obliterated Berserker spec to unplayable level so yeah....they probably won't stop till mirage is unplayable.FYI chronomancer is in the same state tbhPeople that hype chrono bunker are delusional and being able to kill something that doesnt have any sustain with scepter 3 (which is ridiculous , wont lie xD)Nerf sc2-3 and we wont ever see chrono again except some occasional full zerk 'oneshot' gimmicks@"RedShark.9548" said:dont even bother dude, tinyreborn is a hardcore mesmer edgelord that is scared that his specc will need skill hopefully soon.He thinks everyone else is kitten and hes the boss, because he can roflestomp others with condi mirage rn.No matter how they nerf mesmer The Edgelord will be OP regardless . Even with core mesmers mirage/chrono players ask for my builds . Dont even count on it xDHes so overly aggressive protective because he knows how OP it actually is.OP made bs claims (basically a lie ) and sell it as truth .

Focus is OP!!!! ITS HELP SET UP CS! /s

Good thread tho, finally someone who put it together.You are something I described above xDAnd im just standing here looking at all the hate and nerfs warrior has gotten over the years lolYe ,lets forget all buffs and rampage on 72s cd .Unplayable like a renegade /s

I am what you described above?I dont see anything in what you have written fit to describe me

Sorry, but i cant take you serious anymore, the amount of "xD" and edginess you use is just tragic. Grow up