Discussion on Policy: Looking for Group (LFG) Tool

[Ayrilana.1396]

What is Anet’s stance on LFG posts that advertise a guild’s services but will not result in a group being run for said content at that time?

Look at the raid LFG. Practically all of the posts offering their services refer you to contact someone or go to an external website to schedule their run. How’s it different than advertising a guild or advertising trying to sell an item?

[KazukoHimura.2314]

THANK YOU. I'd been seeing someone trying to convince people to buy them 2000 gem items in the roleplay LFG section for a while, plus the times I've used it, I've gotten trolls, people who don't know what roleplay is, and worst off, some dude trying to solicit sex.

[System]

This discussion was created from comments split from: Policy: Looking For Group (LFG) Tool.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

I'd like to learn more about the use of the tool, and how you feel it's properly used and potentially misused.

In my opinion, I always felt that the LFG system is intended for the here and now. "I'm here, I'm forming a group to do a meta event / starting a run / offering a spot in a Raid, and you can join us to do that now." I don't believe that the LFG system was intended for advertising a third-party site, or a later run, or a guild that you can join to participate in group content at some later time. Is that what you're seeing, Ayrilana and Kazuko? Am I mistaken about the best use of the system?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:I'd like to learn more about the use of the tool, and how you feel it's properly used and potentially misused.

In my opinion, I always felt that the LFG system is intended for the here and now. "I'm here, I'm forming a group to do a meta event / starting a run / offering a spot in a Raid, and you can join us to do that now." I don't believe that the LFG system was intended for advertising a third-party site, or a later run, or a guild that you can join to participate in group content at some later time. Is that what you're seeing, Ayrilana and Kazuko? Am I mistaken about the best use of the system?

That’s what I’m seeing.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:I'd like to learn more about the use of the tool, and how you feel it's properly used and potentially misused.

In my opinion, I always felt that the LFG system is intended for the here and now. "I'm here, I'm forming a group to do a meta event / starting a run / offering a spot in a Raid, and you can join us to do that

now

." I don't believe that the LFG system was intended for advertising a third-party site, or a later run, or a guild that you can join to participate in group content at some later time. Is that what you're seeing, Ayrilana and Kazuko? Am I mistaken about the best use of the system?

That’s what I’m seeing.

Sorry, which are you seeing? From the above, what I said was my personal belief in the system's intended use -- "I'm here..." and active group formation -- or the use for advertising future groups, off-site communication systems, etc.?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:I'd like to learn more about the use of the tool, and how you feel it's properly used and potentially misused.

In my opinion, I always felt that the LFG system is intended for the here and now. "I'm here, I'm forming a group to do a meta event / starting a run / offering a spot in a Raid, and you can join us to do that

now

." I don't believe that the LFG system was intended for advertising a third-party site, or a later run, or a guild that you can join to participate in group content at some later time. Is that what you're seeing, Ayrilana and Kazuko? Am I mistaken about the best use of the system?

That’s what I’m seeing.

Sorry,

which

are you seeing? From the above, what I said was my personal belief in the system's intended use -- "I'm here..." and active group formation -- or the use for advertising future groups, off-site communication systems, etc.?

It’s the “or the use for advertising future groups, off-site communication systems, etc.”

It’s much different from how players used the LFG years ago to sell Arah clears as back then you’d get the clear once the payments were made and the group was full.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:I'd like to learn more about the use of the tool, and how you feel it's properly used and potentially misused.

In my opinion, I always felt that the LFG system is intended for the here and now. "I'm here, I'm forming a group to do a meta event / starting a run / offering a spot in a Raid, and you can join us to do that

now

." I don't believe that the LFG system was intended for advertising a third-party site, or a later run, or a guild that you can join to participate in group content at some later time. Is that what you're seeing, Ayrilana and Kazuko? Am I mistaken about the best use of the system?

That’s what I’m seeing.

Agreed; that seems to form the bulk of adverts much of the day.

---

It evolved to this for good reasons, though. For example, one year, as a Wintersday Gift, I bought raid runs for friends, so they could get a chance to see what raids were like, without having to commit to a potentially long learn/fail/improve cycle. (Side note: this was an unintended success in other ways: a lot of people ended up becoming raiders themselves as a result.)

Obviously, it worked better for that situation for me to contact someone to schedule mutually available times. It was easier for the raider sellers to have a single point of contact (me); it was easier for me to have a single point of contact on the selling side, too. Not a single purchase was made in the "here and now."

Plus, the seller needs to coordinate 5+ people; it's awkward at best to ask everyone to wait around just in case there's a buyer.

tl;dr it's probably unrealistic to assume that most raid selling can take place in the immediate moment and accommodate all the people interested(I don't think that suggests that ANet should or shouldn't change enforcement; it's simply a comment about human nature which ANet's policy wonks can include in their discussions.)

[TexZero.7910]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:Sorry, which are you seeing? From the above, what I said was my personal belief in the system's intended use -- "I'm here..." and active group formation -- or the use for advertising future groups, off-site communication systems, etc.?

Both to be fair.

So if the intended use is for here and now we should report those listing for "Future Runs" or those that emplore you to sign up at thier websites then ?

[PeerlessArch.6547]

Why does it bother you?I for one, do not raid, but I do see advertisements for selling raid clears -- but again I ask, why does it matter?It's not like there is a limit of LFG creations that are taking up "spots" preventing others from putting up LFGs.

[Jeknar.6184]

@"PeerlessArch.6547" said:Why does it bother you?I for one, do not raid, but I do see advertisements for selling raid clears -- but again I ask, why does it matter?It's not like there is a limit of LFG creations that are taking up "spots" preventing others from putting up LFGs.

I think people just want Anet to be clear on the their policy... If they say it's ok to advertise on LFG to go to a external site and schedule their runs with the sellers, then we should all be ok with it...

[DragonFury.6243]

so Anet dont like players selling raids !!!but why now ?

[Gaile Gray.6029]

@"PeerlessArch.6547" said:Why does it bother you?I for one, do not raid, but I do see advertisements for selling raid clears -- but again I ask, why does it matter?It's not like there is a limit of LFG creations that are taking up "spots" preventing others from putting up LFGs.

That's a good point. It's not like the announcements are blocking a finite number of spaces in the message queue. :)

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

It evolved to this for good reasons, though. For example, one year, as a Wintersday Gift, I bought raid runs for friends, so they could get a chance to see what raids were like, without having to commit to a potentially long learn/fail/improve cycle. (Side note: this was an unintended success in other ways: a lot of people ended up becoming raiders themselves as a result.)

Obviously, it worked better for that situation for me to contact someone to schedule mutually available times. It was easier for the raider sellers to have a single point of contact (me); it was easier for me to have a single point of contact on the selling side, too. Not a single purchase was made in the "here and now."

Plus, the seller needs to coordinate 5+ people; it's awkward at best to ask everyone to wait around just in case there's a buyer.

tl;dr it's probably unrealistic to assume that most raid selling can take place in the immediate moment and accommodate all the people interested(I don't think that suggests that ANet should or shouldn't change enforcement; it's simply a comment about human nature which ANet's policy wonks can include in their discussions.)

I'm going to try to find out more from the Raids team. I take on board what @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" say here: It's pretty simple to build an immediate group. For instance, "I'm going to do the meta in AB now, come along." It's less simple to create a guild for super high-level content in the immediate timeframe. You know, "Let's group up and take on the hardest raid in the game in four minutes" doesn't have a good ring to it. After all, people getting set for a raid attempt need to align their Cool Ranch Doritos, Dr. Pepper, and Thin Mint cookies, right? ;)

As I said, I'll see if the Raids folks have input. Considering the different services that the LFG tool can /does offer in the game, I imagine its currents uses probably are ok. I'll post if I learn more.

[BlueJin.4127]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:You know, "Let's group up and take on the hardest raid in the game in four minutes" doesn't have a good ring to it.

I can't speak for raids, but for many open world contents, putting up LFG announcements ahead of time is crucial.

For many major meta events, if you don't show up at least 10 minutes in advance, the map will become full and you're out of luck. As such, it's crucial for commanders to put up LFG announcements early on so that players are able to get in the same map before it is too late.

And for HP trains in HoT, it can feel awful getting in late to an HP train and missing some of the HP's that are not easy to solo. Seeing that the HP train starts in about 30 minutes helps the player get to the train on time, so they don't miss anything. Sure, there are usually some other players doing HP's who are willing to help and dedicated players can solo HoT HP's. Still, it's very convenient to have commanders post in LFG in advance.

I think my examples are fundamentally different than adverts saying go to a web site to schedule raids, but I just wanted to post that posting several minutes in advance is, in itself, very helpful and I don’t see why this would be a problem.

[Cyninja.2954]

So the LFG tool has multiple issues, some easily addressed immediately, others not so easily.

• My main issue: it’s quasi hidden.It takes at least two button presses to even get to the selection of which area of the game you are looking for a group. Other MMOs have 1 button automatic group finders on speed dial (those have their own issues and I am not advertising for them) and meanwhile players have to navigate through multiple tabs here. Make the LFG function an entire separate tab and give new players a proper introduction to it. Also with the constant increase in maps, eventually sub tabs for areas will become required.
• Give the LFG tab a face lift.The spvp and WvW tabs are a nice baseline to start with. More visual information, buttons, descriptions. This also extends to the contacts tab, but that one can work as minimalistic name roster. There is great ideas floating around, here is one example (though this goes beyond LFG and is more along the line of general interface update): https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8p2fsc/ingame_content_guide_ui_mockup/ Visual information (especially colors to indicate different things) is a great way to convey information and is already getting used with say commanders tags (both as visual information about group belonging as well as location).
• CustomizationPlayers use abbreviations and custom words to express desired traits in party members they are looking for. Some of these should be rolled into a LFG system. This needs to be done very carefully though as to not fracture the player base but just give enough freedom to allow people to properly express what they are looking for while not getting to discriminating against other players. At the same time, being able to properly pre-filter applicants to groups should reduce toxicity by reducing misunderstandings. Certain boon and role desire is already in the game. Some way to address this is required. The last part obviously relates mostly to fractals and raids (which might be worthy of getting their own customization page in a LFG tab).
• Other than LFG usesI am not strictly opposed to people advertising their services on the LFG, this has been a feature ever since GW1 just as having people perform services like rushes or clears. I do believe that some filters need to be put in place. Let people who advertise for something which is not directly related to group finding do so in a separate place or have them color code their ad and allow people to hide it who are not interested. This is especially dominant with raid (and in the past dungeon) sellers.
• Link LFG to megaserversBy this I mean give players a better overview of where groups they are joining are or give groups easier ways to see where players are. The current jump to player and check map ID system is clunky and the majority of players will not use, know about or understand it.

EDIT: changed "fractals and dungeons" to "fractals and raids" which had been my original intent. Dungeons while too might ask for specific traits (level 80, experience, etc.) are not that difficult of content to warrant to many modifiers.

[Jeknar.6184]

@"BlueJin.4127" said:I can't speak for raids, but for many open world contents, putting up LFG announcements ahead of time is crucial.

For many major meta events, if you don't show up at least 10 minutes in advance, the map will become full and you're out of luck. As such, it's crucial for commanders to put up LFG announcements early on so that players are able to get in the same map before it is too late.

And for HP trains in HoT, it can feel awful getting in late to an HP train and missing some of the HP's that are not easy to solo. Seeing that the HP train starts in about 30 minutes helps the player get to the train on time, so they don't miss anything. Sure, there are usually some other players doing HP's who are willing to help and dedicated players can solo HoT HP's. Still, it's very convenient to have commanders post in LFG in advance.

I think my examples are fundamentally different than adverts saying go to a web site to schedule, but again, I don't know much about how raids are formed in this game.

I don't think it's a issue of announcing somenthing ahead of time... After all, the group is being formed for a event that is going to happen at the scheduled time, but you are still using the LFG to make a group nevertheless...

I belive the complaints are against posts like this one:This is definetely not a post forming a group for a content that will happen soon. The post basically a advertisement of a product (Selling Raids) which you have to make contact with the seller externally. I bet that person is not even in the computer.

So, I belive people want to know what's exactly is Anet stance about this kind of announcement in LFG. If you ask MY OPINION, I personally don't care. There are times when the LFG is basically just the raid sellers, which means it would simply be empty instead if those are not allowed.

[BlueJin.4127]

Ah, OK. Thank you for the example. I was just concerned when Gaile said posting in advance doesn’t sound good. I guess I really was worrying about apples when people were talking about oranges.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I like @"Cyninja.2954"'s "facelift" ideas as a place to start talking about LFG 2.0 — the existing LFG is clunky at best; it works, just barely. There are a lot of simple things that can be done that would make it easier to navigate, and more still changes that would run short of a complete overhaul and still offer huge usability improvements.

(Although probably better to be separated into its own thread rather than attempting to discuss it here. I am similarly tempted to follow up, since we know that the "raids team" will be hearing more about the feedback in this thread and previous threads offering suggestions haven't seemed to have an impact over the years since its introduction.)

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"BlueJin.4127" said:Ah, OK. Thank you for the example. I was just concerned when Gaile said posting in advance doesn’t sound good. I guess I really was worrying about apples when people were talking about oranges.

I don't think you were; the situation is fluid. Gaile's taking feedback both about how people see it being used and about how people think it could be used, based on the broad policy of "it's okay to sell clears" and specifically that it can be okay to used LFG to indicate one is available to do so.

Or in other words: it's good that you brought it up; you're not the only one wondering.

[TexZero.7910]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:I like @"Cyninja.2954"'s "facelift" ideas as a place to start talking about LFG 2.0 — the existing LFG is clunky at best; it works, just barely. There are a lot of simple things that can be done that would make it easier to navigate, and more still changes that would run short of a complete overhaul and still offer huge usability improvements.

(Although probably better to be separated into its own thread rather than attempting to discuss it here. I am similarly tempted to follow up, since we know that the "raids team" will be hearing more about the feedback in this thread and previous threads offering suggestions haven't seemed to have an impact over the years since its introduction.)

While yes a facelift is needed, i don't think this is explicity on the raids team to look at but rather the systems team as this is much more deeply integrated into the entire game and isn't just a raid issue. I do agree and have stated so in the past that the LFG is woefully outdated and needs to be modernized. Hopefully that's taken to heart and we see some progress in the future.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@"PeerlessArch.6547" said:Why does it bother you?I for one, do not raid, but I do see advertisements for selling raid clears -- but again I ask, why does it matter?It's not like there is a limit of LFG creations that are taking up "spots" preventing others from putting up LFGs.

Would it bother you if people used the LFG to sell items? How about to advertise their guild? What about just to make nonsense posts? Surely all of those have a comparable impact on players as raid service advertisements would. The only difference is that those are specifically against the rules and the advertising to schedule services is in a sort of gray area.

If it were allowable to make advertisements, which really weren’t meant to result in an actual party at that time (or even day), then what’s to stop a guild from advertising something like guild missions on certain days of the week while also subtlety advertising their guild?

For selling clears, is it really that difficult to gather members to do it and then advertise for the service? Is that really that unreasonable?

What’s also to stop people from creating ads for players to mail or go to an external website to schedule services such as jumping puzzle clears, HP runs, achievement help, etc?

[Gaile Gray.6029]

I don't think that a "facelift" for the interface is in the cards. Certainly I have not heard about it. I know that everyone has an opinion, and several people may have brilliant ideas about how something can be changed to function more to their liking or even, perhaps, in a better way for everyone. But at the core, any changes to in-game UI and functionality would take a bunch of people to implement, and again, I don't have any concept that such changes would be prioritized over other tasks, projects, fixes, or general undertakings.

I do not want to put a damper on the conversation, but I did want to suggest taking a realistic view of the question about usefulness or the policies behind the uses of the existing tool, rather than moving wholesale into the enticing but perhaps unfeasible idea of moving to a new design.

You are welcome to share any kind of idea you want to share, including design-based or full functionality changes. However, I don't want to see everyone start down that roadway without mentioning that such suggestions cannot be seen as the ultimate (or only) answer to the question of use that formed the start of this conversation.

[Diobolica.8523]

Give an option to block the player advertising from the LFG interface; with the result of the advert then not being displayed making it easier/cleaner to scan for 'actual groups looking for more players'.

[Shakensak.4892]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:I'd like to learn more about the use of the tool, and how you feel it's properly used and potentially misused.

In my opinion, I always felt that the LFG system is intended for the here and now. "I'm here, I'm forming a group to do a meta event / starting a run / offering a spot in a Raid, and you can join us to do that now." I don't believe that the LFG system was intended for advertising a third-party site, or a later run, or a guild that you can join to participate in group content at some later time. Is that what you're seeing, Ayrilana and Kazuko? Am I mistaken about the best use of the system?

I think it's fine to disallow raid sellers pointing to third party sites in the LFG tool.

The "when" part seems irrelevant to me. It does not matter if the raid is going to take place right now or they will schedule a later run. In fact, I believe it is quite inefficient to have a group of 8-9 people waiting maybe 1 or 2 hours for a player willing to buy a spot to show up.

On the other hand, for guilds that focus on raid content, or any other content for that matter, how are they supposed to get in touch with new members when they need to fill in their ranks? Shall they spam recruiting messages in Lion's Arch or the Aerodrome or other maps?

I would recommend that you add a new section to the LFG tool for guilds seeking new recruits, or recruits seeking a guild. After all, a guild is formed by group of people with a purpose (theoretically), so guilds should fit the scope of the LFG tool. Then guilds (or other kind of groups) could use the section to offer permanent or temporal spots (a.k.a. sell spots) for whatever kind of content they wish. You should also improve the LFG filter capabilities accordingly.

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:I don't think that a "facelift" for the interface is in the cards. Certainly I have not heard about it. I know that everyone has an opinion, and several people may have brilliant ideas about how something can be changed to function more to their liking or even, perhaps, in a better way for everyone. But at the core, any changes to in-game UI and functionality would take a bunch of people to implement, and again, I don't have any concept that such changes would be prioritized over other tasks, projects, fixes, or general undertakings.

I do not want to put a damper on the conversation, but I did want to suggest taking a realistic view of the question about usefulness or the policies behind the uses of the existing tool, rather than moving wholesale into the enticing but perhaps unfeasible idea of moving to a new design.

You are welcome to share any kind of idea you want to share, including design-based or full functionality changes. However, I don't want to see everyone start down that roadway without mentioning that such suggestions cannot be seen as the ultimate (or only) answer to the question of use that formed the start of this conversation.

Before you decide to reply to my post, I am fully aware of the complexities behind a redesign or a functionality change to the UI that you stated above. However, I am going to take my chances and still suggest the LFG to be changed. The reason is simple. Not including guilds in the LFG seems like a huge omission of a key game component.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"PeerlessArch.6547" said:Why does it bother you?I for one, do not raid, but I do see advertisements for selling raid clears -- but again I ask, why does it matter?It's not like there is a limit of LFG creations that are taking up "spots" preventing others from putting up LFGs.

Would it bother you if people used the LFG to sell items? How about to advertise their guild? What about just to make nonsense posts?

There aren't really any LFG tabs for it. There's no item/trade tab. There's no guild activity tab. There's no offtopic tab. There is however raids tab.

I never had a problem with people advertising dungeon sells, as long as they kept to their specific dungeon tab. And whether it was about immediate or future sale didn't really concern me. Similarily, i never had a problem with people selling JPs/JP runs in the past

If it were allowable to make advertisements, which really weren’t meant to result in an actual party at that time (or even day), then what’s to stop a guild from advertising something like guild missions on certain days of the week while also subtlety advertising their guild?

Nothing. And personally i'd prefer they were doing it that way instead of running advert bots in main cities. Might require guild tab in LFG though.

For selling clears, is it really that difficult to gather members to do it and then advertise for the service?

Yes. There aren't so many buyers that you could expect to find one in reasonable time. The group is not going to stand there for hours waiting for customers. That option is only available for groups that would be doing the content anyway and feel confident to carry that one person they're missing (and hope to profit from it), or lowman if such a person won't be found. Those groups are a tiny minority as far as raids selling is concerned.

Is that really that unreasonable?Yes, for the reasons mentioned above.

What’s also to stop people from creating ads for players to mail or go to an external website to schedule services such as jumping puzzle clears, HP runs, achievement help, etc?

Probably nothing.

Notice, i'm not again creating separate lfg tabs for all of those. It's just i don't think it's likely to happen, for a multitude of reasons.