Will mirage ever get a proper nerf?

Lincolnbeard.1735 · January 22, 2019

@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Twilight Tempest.7584 · January 22, 2019

@ErazorZ.5209 said:First you state targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense, and then literally a few sentences later you are saying defenses are fine and doesnt need to be changed cuz offensives are lower? Wat.

Wat?

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:Defense: With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal. Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others.

I would add that the reflect on dodge trait needs more c/d as well.

But yes, I know, you really, really hate all mesmers because they're the only ones you can't "steamroll":

@ErazorZ.5209 said:If i can steamroll every proffesion with ease on the level i am playing at except mesmer. How is that fine again? These people dont even know howto rotate or dodge key skills. Yet mesmers keep me locked there because of there ease of play.From: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/806963#Comment_806963

Emberheart.8426 · January 22, 2019

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

ErazorZ.5209 · January 22, 2019

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@ErazorZ.5209 said:First you state targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense, and then literally a few sentences later you are saying defenses are fine and doesnt need to be changed cuz offensives are lower? Wat.

Wat?

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
Defense:
With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal.
Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others.

I would add that the reflect on dodge trait needs more c/d as well.

But yes, I know, you really,

really

hate all mesmers because they're the only ones you can't "steamroll":

@ErazorZ.5209 said:If i can steamroll every proffesion with ease on the level i am playing at except mesmer. How is that fine again? These people dont even know howto rotate or dodge key skills. Yet mesmers keep me locked there because of there ease of play.From:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/806963#Comment_806963

Nice, taking a message out of context i wrote. Mesmers basically butchered my ranked score from plat 2 to almost gold 2. I climbed my way up to plat before the mesmer invasion of PvP ...right when i started seeing 2 mesmers in my enemy teams, i started streak losing towards gold 2. Now i am literally easily killing people in my ranked games because the people i am playing with right now are allot worse then what i was facing in plat 2, except for mesmers, wich keep me contained in gold 2 because they are broken.

You basically stated that mesmers needed both nerfs in offense and defence. Yet after you proclaim the nerfs to offense, you automatically state because 'the offensive is nerfed' The defenses shouldnt be touched.

UfoCoffee.2084 · January 22, 2019

@Julius Seizure.4985 said:
@phokus.8934 said:
@Caine.8204 said:
@phokus.8934 said:
@Caine.8204 said:Nerf Distortion by 1s, have it only grant distortion when you shatter an illusion.
Trait that gives blind on Shatter: ICD of 3 seconds (per target)
Have mirage cloak count as a block instead of an evade, so unblockable attacks can still hit the Mesmer.
Balanced.

It’s a good thing you’re not working for ANet. I’ve read some bad ideas but this is near the top.

They have a 70% chance to evade or avoid an attack, while having some of the highest single target damage in the game. They also have access to permanent regen, and then protection through chaos armor/chaos storms.

If anything, having the dodge count as a block rather than a complete evade would bring them into balanced territory.

Having a blind on every shatter is also a root cause of their invulnerability. Either nerf this, nerf the distortion, nerf the dodge, or all 3.

Mirage Cloak isn’t being changed to a block, so let’s take that off the board right away.

I agree, Mirage Cloak needs to lock out actions during it’s animation and then provide a 2 second window to activate an ambush skill. It needs to be a normal dodge that doesn’t apply counter pressure or allow freely protected heals/stomps/rez etc.

Here is a list of things that would STILL make Mirage Cloak better than base dodge:

Can still dodge when Immobilized.
Can still dodge when CCed.
Still has 33% more evade frames (1 seconds vs 3/4).
Still allows for better positioning/control.

Mirage will pretty much never be balanced unless this happens. The only other option is to so completely gut core skills and traits but then base Mesmer and Chrono will suffer.

Chrono is nearly as bad as mirage. Spamming an army of pets cluttering the screen, insane survivability. Whoever is in charge of mesmer balance must be constantly high. Nerf axe power damage again......

Twilight Tempest.7584 · January 22, 2019

@ErazorZ.5209 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@ErazorZ.5209 said:First you state targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense, and then literally a few sentences later you are saying defenses are fine and doesnt need to be changed cuz offensives are lower? Wat.

Wat?

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
Defense:
With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal.
Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others.

I would add that the reflect on dodge trait needs more c/d as well.

But yes, I know, you really,

really

hate all mesmers because they're the only ones you can't "steamroll":

@ErazorZ.5209 said:If i can steamroll every proffesion with ease on the level i am playing at except mesmer. How is that fine again? These people dont even know howto rotate or dodge key skills. Yet mesmers keep me locked there because of there ease of play.From:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/806963#Comment_806963

Nice, taking a message out of context i wrote. Mesmers basically butchered my ranked score from plat 2 to almost gold 2. I climbed my way up to plat before the mesmer invasion of PvP ...right when i started seeing 2 mesmers in my enemy teams, i started streak losing towards gold 2. Now i am literally easily killing people in my ranked games because the people i am playing with right now are allot worse then what i was facing in plat 2, except for mesmers, wich keep me contained in gold 2 because they are broken.

You basically stated that mesmers needed both nerfs in offense and defence. Yet after you proclaim the nerfs to offense, you automatically state because 'the offensive is nerfed' The defenses shouldnt be touched.

I didn't take anything out of context. Quite the opposite considering I linked to the full post.
Maybe third time's the charm: Kindly revisit my last post (which you quoted) and read the bold, italicized part as many times as it takes to see that I agreed with a major nerf to defense.

Lincolnbeard.1735 · January 22, 2019

@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

apharma.3741 · January 22, 2019

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@"apharma.3741" said:
YOU DO NOT WANT TO BRING BACK CLONE DEATH TRAITS!!!
- seriously no, please no. We had this and it was horrible.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Debilitating_Dissipation
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Combatants
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippling_Dissipation

I can imagine why those were problematic but my idea is more modest. Effects would only be applied to the player who killed the clone, so not AOE. And only a couple stacks of something. In exchange for clones "firing blanks" as their auto attacks. The idea is to make clone play--for both the mesmer and its opponents--more deliberate. Also to cut back on condi spam.

Anyhow it was just an admittedly rough idea. Thanks for the feedback.

The problem is that this would be very easily abused with the level of clones that can be generated if you really want to go down that route. Scepter 2, staff 3, deceptive evasion, mirror images and you can use chrono to get resets on all that.

It also puts you in a lose lose situation in regards to shatters. If someone shatters you can kill the clones before they hit you but if you kill the clones you get punished. This would obscure the fundamental counterplay to shatters, killing clones.

Emberheart.8426 · January 22, 2019

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge.

Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to.

ErazorZ.5209 · January 22, 2019

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@ErazorZ.5209 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@ErazorZ.5209 said:First you state targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense, and then literally a few sentences later you are saying defenses are fine and doesnt need to be changed cuz offensives are lower? Wat.

Wat?

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
Defense:
With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal.
Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others.

I would add that the reflect on dodge trait needs more c/d as well.

But yes, I know, you really,

really

hate all mesmers because they're the only ones you can't "steamroll":

@ErazorZ.5209 said:If i can steamroll every proffesion with ease on the level i am playing at except mesmer. How is that fine again? These people dont even know howto rotate or dodge key skills. Yet mesmers keep me locked there because of there ease of play.From:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/806963#Comment_806963

Nice, taking a message out of context i wrote. Mesmers basically butchered my ranked score from plat 2 to almost gold 2. I climbed my way up to plat before the mesmer invasion of PvP ...right when i started seeing 2 mesmers in my enemy teams, i started streak losing towards gold 2. Now i am literally easily killing people in my ranked games because the people i am playing with right now are allot worse then what i was facing in plat 2, except for mesmers, wich keep me contained in gold 2 because they are broken.

You basically stated that mesmers needed both nerfs in offense and defence. Yet after you proclaim the nerfs to offense, you automatically state because 'the offensive is nerfed' The defenses shouldnt be touched.

I didn't take anything out of context. Quite the opposite considering I linked to the full post.
Maybe third time's the charm: Kindly revisit my last post (which you quoted) and read the bold, italicized part as many times as it takes to see that I agreed with a major nerf to defense.

You know just aswell as me people are not going to read that entire post. I clarified it for those who are reading this thread. Not the other.
This is the only thing you wanted changed about defense: "dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others." And that doesnt even scratch the surface of how many defensives a mesmer has. It is not enough.

Twilight Tempest.7584 · January 22, 2019

@apharma.3741 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
YOU DO NOT WANT TO BRING BACK CLONE DEATH TRAITS!!!
- seriously no, please no. We had this and it was horrible.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Debilitating_Dissipation
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Combatants
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippling_Dissipation

I can imagine why those were problematic but my idea is more modest. Effects would only be applied to the player who killed the clone, so not AOE. And only a couple stacks of something. In exchange for clones "firing blanks" as their auto attacks. The idea is to make clone play--for both the mesmer and its opponents--more deliberate. Also to cut back on condi spam.

Anyhow it was just an admittedly rough idea. Thanks for the feedback.

The problem is that this would be very easily abused with the level of clones that can be generated if you really want to go down that route. Scepter 2, staff 3, deceptive evasion, mirror images and you can use chrono to get resets on all that.

Yes it would be a sea change to clone play for sure. I'm thinking there'd be less need for clone generation since people would try to avoid killing them once they wised up. Since clones would no longer apply damage on their own (unless killed), they'd just exist to help the real mesmer hide between bursts. But as is now, three clones on the field is one's queue to watch for the shatter (or axe 3).

It also puts you in a lose lose situation in regards to shatters. If someone shatters you can kill the clones before they hit you but if you kill the clones you get punished. This would obscure the fundamental counterplay to shatters, killing clones.

This point is well taken. However clones sent to shatter wouldn't proc the clone death mechanic. Once the mesmer commands a shatter, all clones become fair game to be killed without penalty. Indeed the proper counter at this point would be to kill or evade the inbound clones.

Alternatively, one could choose to kill clones if running enough counter-condi. It would be no more condi than the clones apply now via auto attacks. But the goal is to dial back overall condi output while encouraging more methodical counterplay over the course of longer engagements.

Twilight Tempest.7584 · January 22, 2019

@ErazorZ.5209 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@ErazorZ.5209 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@ErazorZ.5209 said:First you state targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense, and then literally a few sentences later you are saying defenses are fine and doesnt need to be changed cuz offensives are lower? Wat.

Wat?

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
Defense:
With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal.
Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others.

I would add that the reflect on dodge trait needs more c/d as well.

But yes, I know, you really,

really

hate all mesmers because they're the only ones you can't "steamroll":

@ErazorZ.5209 said:If i can steamroll every proffesion with ease on the level i am playing at except mesmer. How is that fine again? These people dont even know howto rotate or dodge key skills. Yet mesmers keep me locked there because of there ease of play.From:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/806963#Comment_806963

Nice, taking a message out of context i wrote. Mesmers basically butchered my ranked score from plat 2 to almost gold 2. I climbed my way up to plat before the mesmer invasion of PvP ...right when i started seeing 2 mesmers in my enemy teams, i started streak losing towards gold 2. Now i am literally easily killing people in my ranked games because the people i am playing with right now are allot worse then what i was facing in plat 2, except for mesmers, wich keep me contained in gold 2 because they are broken.

You basically stated that mesmers needed both nerfs in offense and defence. Yet after you proclaim the nerfs to offense, you automatically state because 'the offensive is nerfed' The defenses shouldnt be touched.

I didn't take anything out of context. Quite the opposite considering I linked to the full post.
Maybe third time's the charm: Kindly revisit my last post (which you quoted) and read the bold, italicized part as many times as it takes to see that I agreed with a major nerf to defense.

You know just aswell as me people are not going to read that entire post. I clarified it for those who are reading this thread. Not the other.
This is the only thing you wanted changed about defense: "dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others." And that doesnt even scratch the surface of how many defensives a mesmer has. It is not enough.

I'm not sure it makes much difference, but the full post was linked regardless.
I added that the reflect on dodge trait should be nerfed too. Otherwise, defenses are fine for the most part, especially if condi mirage becomes a truly DOT trickster spec as I suggested.

mortrialus.3062 · January 22, 2019

@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge.

Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to.

1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge.

Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to.

Sand Shades, Tomes, Beast Mode, Photon Forge are a HECK of a lot of class mechanic for "one" class mechanic.

Twilight Tempest.7584 · January 22, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge.

Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to.

1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the

entire

specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

I felt this right away going from core mesmer to mirage. Suppose a scourge or ranger puts a giant AOE circle around you. Without the standard dodge roll that physically moves you out of harm's way during the evade, or the extra evade time and speed, you'd practically have to burn a mobility in addition to a dodge.

nativity.3057 · January 22, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge.

Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to.

1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the

entire

specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

Isn't superspeed on dodge baseline for mirage?

mortrialus.3062 · January 22, 2019

@nativity.3057 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge.

Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to.

1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the

entire

specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

Isn't superspeed on dodge baseline for mirage?

It is but it doesn't account for your need to get out of danger in any direction other than forward. If you need to about face, or go any direction other than forward you're wasting evade frames just to turn even if you use about face to turn as quickly as possible.

Solori.6025 · January 22, 2019

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@ErazorZ.5209 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@ErazorZ.5209 said:First you state targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense, and then literally a few sentences later you are saying defenses are fine and doesnt need to be changed cuz offensives are lower? Wat.

Wat?

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
Defense:
With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal.
Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others.

I would add that the reflect on dodge trait needs more c/d as well.

But yes, I know, you really,

really

hate all mesmers because they're the only ones you can't "steamroll":

@ErazorZ.5209 said:If i can steamroll every proffesion with ease on the level i am playing at except mesmer. How is that fine again? These people dont even know howto rotate or dodge key skills. Yet mesmers keep me locked there because of there ease of play.From:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/806963#Comment_806963

Nice, taking a message out of context i wrote. Mesmers basically butchered my ranked score from plat 2 to almost gold 2. I climbed my way up to plat before the mesmer invasion of PvP ...right when i started seeing 2 mesmers in my enemy teams, i started streak losing towards gold 2. Now i am literally easily killing people in my ranked games because the people i am playing with right now are allot worse then what i was facing in plat 2, except for mesmers, wich keep me contained in gold 2 because they are broken.

You basically stated that mesmers needed both nerfs in offense and defence. Yet after you proclaim the nerfs to offense, you automatically state because 'the offensive is nerfed' The defenses shouldnt be touched.

I didn't take anything out of context. Quite the opposite considering I linked to the full post.
Maybe third time's the charm: Kindly revisit my last post (which you quoted) and read the bold, italicized part as many times as it takes to see that I agreed with a major nerf to defense.

Reading comprehension. Most people don't have it because they have an extreme bias. Or an agenda. Or both in this caseYour talking to a wall Tempest.

Solori.6025 · January 22, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@nativity.3057 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge.

Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to.

1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the

entire

specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

Isn't superspeed on dodge baseline for mirage?

It is but it doesn't account for your need to get out of danger in any direction other than forward. If you need to about face, or go any direction other than forward you're wasting evade frames just to turn even if you use about face to turn as quickly as possible.

It's why I think mirage cloak and dodge should just be redesigned from the ground up. It fails as a practical concept when you need to move away.Mirage cloak will only ever be really good. Or really bad.Though it'll probably get the berserker treatment when a new expac is announced cause Anet wants money

EpicTurtle.8571 · January 22, 2019

@ErazorZ.5209 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@ErazorZ.5209 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@ErazorZ.5209 said:First you state targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense, and then literally a few sentences later you are saying defenses are fine and doesnt need to be changed cuz offensives are lower? Wat.

Wat?

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
Defense:
With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal.
Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others.

I would add that the reflect on dodge trait needs more c/d as well.

But yes, I know, you really,

really

hate all mesmers because they're the only ones you can't "steamroll":

@ErazorZ.5209 said:If i can steamroll every proffesion with ease on the level i am playing at except mesmer. How is that fine again? These people dont even know howto rotate or dodge key skills. Yet mesmers keep me locked there because of there ease of play.From:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/806963#Comment_806963

Nice, taking a message out of context i wrote. Mesmers basically butchered my ranked score from plat 2 to almost gold 2. I climbed my way up to plat before the mesmer invasion of PvP ...right when i started seeing 2 mesmers in my enemy teams, i started streak losing towards gold 2. Now i am literally easily killing people in my ranked games because the people i am playing with right now are allot worse then what i was facing in plat 2, except for mesmers, wich keep me contained in gold 2 because they are broken.

You basically stated that mesmers needed both nerfs in offense and defence. Yet after you proclaim the nerfs to offense, you automatically state because 'the offensive is nerfed' The defenses shouldnt be touched.

I didn't take anything out of context. Quite the opposite considering I linked to the full post.
Maybe third time's the charm: Kindly revisit my last post (which you quoted) and read the bold, italicized part as many times as it takes to see that I agreed with a major nerf to defense.

You know just aswell as me people are not going to read that entire post. I clarified it for those who are reading this thread. Not the other.
This is the only thing you wanted changed about defense: "dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others." And that doesnt even scratch the surface of how many defensives a mesmer has. It is not enough.

I'm so tired of your vague, 'all these defensives' argument. So let's put you in your place.

Distortion: 1-4 seconds of invuln on a 42 second cooldown. So much permanent uptimeEvades: two dodges like everyone else and lower vigor uptime. Axe evade puts clones right onto you, just cleave them or dodge the obvious shatter coming at you. Maybe extras from combat utities but that's a double standard considering anyone can pick utilities.Blocks: Maybe 2 of them. Show me a single mesmer that uses OH sword though.

And before you ree about target breaks there's only 3, almost no one uses Mirage Advance so basically only 2 usable and there's better options than Mirror Images.And since you're the guy who unironically linked Mass Invisibility and Veil, I assume you can count to 5 and 2 respectively? Or interrupt the giant purple pulsar showing off Mass Invis? Are you going to rail about stealth access on other classes or is just Mesmers paltry access to 15 total seconds of stealth too much for you?And before you start arbitrarily looking up defensive traits to present as 'smoking guns' every class can have defensive traits it's not that special.

Seriously stop with the ragefest we get it, you hate Mesmer. The only solid issues I've seen anyone point out is dodge while cc'ed, blinding dissipation spam, and condi output.

sephiroth.4217 · January 22, 2019

If people defend mirage cloak and its capabilities to work outside the combat parameters of every other class, thats fine, but be prepared for other classes to recieve the same treatment.

You could end up with thieves walking through walls and ignoring terrain because its "class mechanic"...Could end with 450 teleports as general movement because "class mechanics"Could end up with the ability to walk under maps because its class mechanicTheres a sadistic side of me that wishes this will happen now just so I can sit there and tell Mirages "its balanced, L2P"

viquing.8254 · January 22, 2019

@"apharma.3741" said:YOU DO NOT WANT TO BRING BACK CLONE DEATH TRAITS!!! - seriously no, please no. We had this and it was horrible.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Debilitating_Dissipation https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Combatants https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippling_Dissipation

One more time it wasn't the on death trait who were problematic but the combo with PU + DE (just look at the damage/duration of what you link to convince you.). And yes i want them back because a third of mesmer gameplay were based on them.Maybe on day people just look at number and saw that a 20/25/15/10/0 or equivalent were not easy to play.That said with the full shatter trait orientation and the boosted clone generation it will not be the same as before.

Crinn.7864 · January 22, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@nativity.3057 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge.

Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to.

1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the

entire

specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

Isn't superspeed on dodge baseline for mirage?

It is but it doesn't account for your need to get out of danger in any direction other than forward. If you need to about face, or go any direction other than forward you're wasting evade frames just to turn even if you use about face to turn as quickly as possible.

First off, There is literally a keybind for performing a instant about face.

Secondly, if you use your mouse to navigate you can rotate your character almost instantly anyways.

Third, the lack of a movement component is not a drawback in PvP in any way. There are very few ground effect cleave skills in this game that last longer than 1s and the ones that do have very little damage per single strike so it's not going to ruin your precious mirage if you take a strike while stepping out.

Fourth, the lack of a movement component is one of the biggest benefits of mCloak because it means that mCloak doesn't interrupt revive, stomp, or skill casts in the way that a regular animation does.

Fifth, the lack of a movement component means that mirage can dodge while on a narrow ledge or jumping puzzle without falling off.

mortrialus.3062 · January 23, 2019

@Crinn.7864 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@nativity.3057 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge.

Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to.

1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the

entire

specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

Isn't superspeed on dodge baseline for mirage?

It is but it doesn't account for your need to get out of danger in any direction other than forward. If you need to about face, or go any direction other than forward you're wasting evade frames just to turn even if you use about face to turn as quickly as possible.

First off, There is literally a keybind for performing a instant about face.

Secondly, if you use your mouse to navigate you can rotate your character almost instantly anyways.

Third, the lack of a movement component is not a drawback in PvP in any way. There are very few ground effect cleave skills in this game that last longer than 1s and the ones that do have very little damage per single strike so it's not going to ruin your precious mirage if you take a strike while stepping out.

Fourth, the lack of a movement component is one of the biggest benefits of mCloak because it means that mCloak doesn't interrupt revive, stomp, or skill casts in the way that a regular animation does.

Fifth, the lack of a movement component means that mirage can dodge while on a narrow ledge or jumping puzzle without falling off.

Did you play demo weekend mirage? No? Okay then.

Crinn.7864 · January 23, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Crinn.7864 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@nativity.3057 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge.

Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to.

1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the

entire

specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

Isn't superspeed on dodge baseline for mirage?

It is but it doesn't account for your need to get out of danger in any direction other than forward. If you need to about face, or go any direction other than forward you're wasting evade frames just to turn even if you use about face to turn as quickly as possible.

First off, There is literally a keybind for performing a instant about face.

Secondly, if you use your mouse to navigate you can rotate your character almost instantly anyways.

Third, the lack of a movement component is not a drawback in PvP in any way. There are very few ground effect cleave skills in this game that last longer than 1s and the ones that do have very little damage per single strike so it's not going to ruin your precious mirage if you take a strike while stepping out.

Fourth, the lack of a movement component is one of the biggest benefits of mCloak because it means that mCloak doesn't interrupt revive, stomp, or skill casts in the way that a regular animation does.

Fifth, the lack of a movement component means that mirage can dodge while on a narrow ledge or jumping puzzle without falling off.

Did you play demo weekend mirage? No? Okay then.

Demo weekend mirage was fine in pvp. The complaints about the dodge not moving you came from PvE where raid and fractal bosses are heavy on the mega-circles-of-instant-wipe, and even then it was mostly a issues of players just not being used to using mCloak.

Twilight Tempest.7584 · January 23, 2019

@Crinn.7864 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@nativity.3057 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics.

By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2.

As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go.

Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic.

Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too?

It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge.

Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to.

1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the

entire

specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

Isn't superspeed on dodge baseline for mirage?

It is but it doesn't account for your need to get out of danger in any direction other than forward. If you need to about face, or go any direction other than forward you're wasting evade frames just to turn even if you use about face to turn as quickly as possible.

First off, There is literally a keybind for performing a instant about face.

Secondly, if you use your mouse to navigate you can rotate your character almost instantly anyways.

Third, the lack of a movement component is not a drawback in PvP in any way. There are very few ground effect cleave skills in this game that last longer than 1s and the ones that do have very little damage per single strike so it's not going to

ruin your precious mirage

if you take a strike while stepping out.

Fourth, the lack of a movement component is one of the biggest benefits of mCloak because it means that mCloak doesn't interrupt revive, stomp, or skill casts in the way that a regular animation does.

Fifth, the lack of a movement component means that mirage can dodge while on a narrow ledge or jumping puzzle without falling off.

Even so, it still takes that extra fraction of a second of human reaction and input time to accomplish comparable movement.

You do raise some clear advantages to MC though. And yes, my mirage is very "precious". :smile:

Will mirage ever get a proper nerf?

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