At what point is a single burst too strong?

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

Well, this isn't about winning Conquest.

I'm simply explaining that bursts like these exist and are unfair. This can be used as a troll method in custom servers, the FFA area and just promote overall toxicity and annoyance in Conquest. Don't even get me started on the implications this has in WvW.

Wait. What? How come this is not about winning?

Why do you even play this game mode?

Winning is nice, sure. But also to

have fun

.

So you guys actually understand that this is not an actual balance problem and that these builds are actually terrible.Yet still come to the forum to complain and ask nerfs about builds that statically can't win kitten.

Just because,

in your opinion,

you believe they are not fun?

Really?

If fun matters, and a lot of people find certain builds anti-fun, should that be ignored?

Various Mesmer builds have been QQ'd about for months as "anti-fun" even when discussion after discussion showed they're not necessarily unbalanced. Did fun-factor not matter there?

Of course not. Why? Because fun is subjective.You hate fighting mesmer?

What about those who actually like the challenge? Or those that actually play mesmer?

People complain about everything. Anything. That at certain point in time they disagree. You can't take balance decisions based on that.Not a wonder why we keep getting completely random patch notes every 6 months. You can't balance a game this way.

Full disclosure: bolded part applies to me. So you're somewhat preaching to the choir. I'm just asking whether fun-factor matters. Because it sure seems like it based on the never-ending mesmer QQ threads we had for months on end, and Anet seems to have "balanced" based on those.

@"anduriell.6280" said:Do i agree 20k one hit is good for the game? No, i don't. But then all classes should be nerfed as all do ridiculous damage at this point.

Or at least change the power damage calculation based in armor... but then this game would drift towards condition builds. So there is that.

I have no issue with that. Condi-builds are vastly overshadowed by power builds right now. Case in point: only two viable condi builds--Scourge and condi-Mirage. And only because they have enough condi pressure to potentially win the race against the ample condi cleanse/resistance going around.

My essay on this if interested: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/872580/#Comment_872580.

[Eurantien.4632]

The thing is. This is melee range. With no teleports or pulls or anything. This requires full glass with every offensive trait, amulet, everything. If you know it's coming you can turn around and walk away and not get hit.

This isn't 100 nades pull and insta die. This isn't backstab from stealth insta die. This isn't 1200 range instant cast daze/immob -> 1 shot. This isn't rev port autoattacks.

It's a ranger that has to self buff and run up to you. If it hits you with swoop the buff isn't gone and you won't get hit so hard. The ranger has to walk. Throw out a cripple. Throw out an immob. Turn around and press W. get good positioning for the max 8s that ranger is Invisible (though it's probably more like 4).

Ranger isn't the same as other dps classes that can instantly kill you even when you know they're there. + ranger is probably the easiest dps class to kill with the lowest minimal kill time.

This is a l2p issue, hands down.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

Well, this isn't about winning Conquest.

I'm simply explaining that bursts like these exist and are unfair. This can be used as a troll method in custom servers, the FFA area and just promote overall toxicity and annoyance in Conquest. Don't even get me started on the implications this has in WvW.

Wait. What? How come this is not about winning?

Why do you even play this game mode?

Winning is nice, sure. But also to

have fun

.

So you guys actually understand that this is not an actual balance problem and that these builds are actually terrible.Yet still come to the forum to complain and ask nerfs about builds that statically can't win kitten.

Just because,

in your opinion,

you believe they are not fun?

Really?

If fun matters, and a lot of people find certain builds anti-fun, should that be ignored?

Various Mesmer builds have been QQ'd about for months as "anti-fun" even when discussion after discussion showed they're not necessarily unbalanced. Did fun-factor not matter there?

Of course not. Why? Because fun is subjective.You hate fighting mesmer?

What about those who actually like the challenge? Or those that actually play mesmer?

People complain about everything. Anything. That at certain point in time they disagree. You can't take balance decisions based on that.Not a wonder why we keep getting completely random patch notes every 6 months. You can't balance a game this way.

Full disclosure: bolded part applies to me. So you're somewhat preaching to the choir. I'm just asking whether fun-factor matters. Because it sure seems like it based on the never-ending mesmer QQ threads we had for months on end, and Anet seems to have "balanced" based on those.

What people define as "fun" is going to vary from person to person, so balancing around "fun" is incredibly difficult. Some people's version of "fun" is trolling others, some people's version of "fun" is wrecking noobs, some people's version of "fun" is executing really skillful combos. If I had to pick which version of "fun" condi mirage was in its previous state, I'd say it's the kind where you're able to wreck almost everyone except those who are specifically designed to counter you. Condi mirage is still viable (I still see it regularly), but it's not so easy to win with now.

[otto.5684]

Without getting too much into detail, we all no Sicem needs a nerf in sPvP. This skill clearly was not designed to give the player 40% bonus damage for 10 secs with 28 sec CD.

[Sampson.2403]

Impossible odds should totally pulse stability

[Eurantien.4632]

I'd rather have high risk high rewards running around than everyone playing tanky stuff that even builds like this can't kill.

[storm.3120]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

Well, this isn't about winning Conquest.

I'm simply explaining that bursts like these exist and are unfair. This can be used as a troll method in custom servers, the FFA area and just promote overall toxicity and annoyance in Conquest. Don't even get me started on the implications this has in WvW.

Wait. What? How come this is not about winning?

Why do you even play this game mode?

Winning is nice, sure. But also to

have fun

.

So you guys actually understand that this is not an actual balance problem and that these builds are actually terrible.Yet still come to the forum to complain and ask nerfs about builds that statically can't win kitten.

Just because,

in your opinion,

you believe they are not fun?

Really?

If fun matters, and a lot of people find certain builds anti-fun, should that be ignored?

Various Mesmer builds have been QQ'd about for months as "anti-fun" even when discussion after discussion showed they're not necessarily unbalanced. Did fun-factor not matter there?

Of course not. Why? Because fun is subjective.You hate fighting mesmer?

What about those who actually like the challenge? Or those that actually play mesmer?

People complain about everything. Anything. That at certain point in time they disagree. You can't take balance decisions based on that.Not a wonder why we keep getting completely random patch notes every 6 months. You can't balance a game this way.

Full disclosure: bolded part applies to me. So you're somewhat preaching to the choir. I'm just asking whether fun-factor matters. Because it sure seems like it based on the never-ending mesmer QQ threads we had for months on end, and Anet seems to have "balanced" based on those.

What people define as "fun" is going to vary from person to person, so balancing around "fun" is incredibly difficult. Some people's version of "fun" is trolling others, some people's version of "fun" is wrecking noobs, some people's version of "fun" is executing really skillful combos. If I had to pick which version of "fun" condi mirage was in its previous state, I'd say it's the kind where you're able to wreck almost everyone except those who are specifically designed to counter you. Condi mirage is still viable (I still see it regularly), but it's not so easy to win with now.In fact everyone been saying regardless of its representation in leadeboards its unfun for them and shouldnt exist and still whine goes on. It needed nerfs but not 67% damage nerfs and taking away somethin that always been there as confusion on traitline that wasnt part of the meta build. Just as all those attempts to nerf cmirage by ruin core class more and nerfing power based builds in process, because when they said they want to reduce condi burst they nerfed to hell power block. Cba to figure out what is the problem, too hard, nerf everything by another 50-70% and trash dodge that doesnt align with ambush itself. Spoiler: its not only bad(and your I SEE THEM REGULARY doesnt make it more viable btw), its unfun to play, especially with clunky scepter that most mesmers dont like.Have fun with scepter chrono now, what else to say. Lets see how long you/'knowledgable community' lasts until next OP NERF

[Vagrant.7206]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

Well, this isn't about winning Conquest.

I'm simply explaining that bursts like these exist and are unfair. This can be used as a troll method in custom servers, the FFA area and just promote overall toxicity and annoyance in Conquest. Don't even get me started on the implications this has in WvW.

Wait. What? How come this is not about winning?

Why do you even play this game mode?

Winning is nice, sure. But also to

have fun

.

So you guys actually understand that this is not an actual balance problem and that these builds are actually terrible.Yet still come to the forum to complain and ask nerfs about builds that statically can't win kitten.

Just because,

in your opinion,

you believe they are not fun?

Really?

If fun matters, and a lot of people find certain builds anti-fun, should that be ignored?

Various Mesmer builds have been QQ'd about for months as "anti-fun" even when discussion after discussion showed they're not necessarily unbalanced. Did fun-factor not matter there?

Of course not. Why? Because fun is subjective.You hate fighting mesmer?

What about those who actually like the challenge? Or those that actually play mesmer?

People complain about everything. Anything. That at certain point in time they disagree. You can't take balance decisions based on that.Not a wonder why we keep getting completely random patch notes every 6 months. You can't balance a game this way.

Full disclosure: bolded part applies to me. So you're somewhat preaching to the choir. I'm just asking whether fun-factor matters. Because it sure seems like it based on the never-ending mesmer QQ threads we had for months on end, and Anet seems to have "balanced" based on those.

What people define as "fun" is going to vary from person to person, so balancing around "fun" is incredibly difficult. Some people's version of "fun" is trolling others, some people's version of "fun" is wrecking noobs, some people's version of "fun" is executing really skillful combos. If I had to pick which version of "fun" condi mirage was in its previous state, I'd say it's the kind where you're able to wreck almost everyone except those who are specifically designed to counter you. Condi mirage is still viable (I still see it regularly), but it's not so easy to win with now.In fact everyone been saying regardless of its representation in leadeboards its unfun for them and shouldnt exist and still whine goes on. It needed nerfs but not 67% damage nerfs and taking away somethin that always been there as confusion on traitline that wasnt part of the meta build. Just as all those attempts to nerf cmirage by ruin core class more and nerfing power based builds in process, because when they said they want to reduce condi burst they nerfed to hell power block. Cba to figure out what is the problem, too hard, nerf everything by another 50-70% and trash dodge that doesnt align with ambush itself. Spoiler: its not only bad(and your I SEE THEM REGULARY doesnt make it more viable btw), its unfun to play, especially with clunky scepter that most mesmers dont like.Have fun with scepter chrono now, what else to say. Lets see how long you/'knowledgable community' lasts until next OP NERF

I'm not sure how your points are relevant to the "fun" factor of playing the game. Are you blaming players for nerfs that the devs themselves chose?

[Zephoid.4263]

@Eurantien.4632 said:The thing is. This is melee range. With no teleports or pulls or anything. This requires full glass with every offensive trait, amulet, everything. If you know it's coming you can turn around and walk away and not get hit.

This isn't 100 nades pull and insta die. This isn't backstab from stealth insta die. This isn't 1200 range instant cast daze/immob -> 1 shot. This isn't rev port autoattacks.

It's a ranger that has to self buff and run up to you. If it hits you with swoop the buff isn't gone and you won't get hit so hard. The ranger has to walk. Throw out a cripple. Throw out an immob. Turn around and press W. get good positioning for the max 8s that ranger is Invisible (though it's probably more like 4).

Ranger isn't the same as other dps classes that can instantly kill you even when you know they're there. + ranger is probably the easiest dps class to kill with the lowest minimal kill time.

This is a l2p issue, hands down.

Or they can stealth. Because rangers get essentially free access with smokescale being one of the best pets in the game from a damage standpoint.

Again, for those who can't read. Smoke assault->ranger steps behind pillar and stealths->I back off expecting LB2->rapid so i readied stun break and poison cloud->takedown->i stun break and try to poison cloud->maul for 24k.

I'm not 'waiting around waiting for long cast time abilities'. I literally had to chose if i was fighting longbow or gs without actually seeing him or knowing how he was going to proceed. He had all of the options on how to attack me. That map has almost no cover and i was literally outside spawn.

[storm.3120]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

Well, this isn't about winning Conquest.

I'm simply explaining that bursts like these exist and are unfair. This can be used as a troll method in custom servers, the FFA area and just promote overall toxicity and annoyance in Conquest. Don't even get me started on the implications this has in WvW.

Wait. What? How come this is not about winning?

Why do you even play this game mode?

Winning is nice, sure. But also to

have fun

.

So you guys actually understand that this is not an actual balance problem and that these builds are actually terrible.Yet still come to the forum to complain and ask nerfs about builds that statically can't win kitten.

Just because,

in your opinion,

you believe they are not fun?

Really?

If fun matters, and a lot of people find certain builds anti-fun, should that be ignored?

Various Mesmer builds have been QQ'd about for months as "anti-fun" even when discussion after discussion showed they're not necessarily unbalanced. Did fun-factor not matter there?

Of course not. Why? Because fun is subjective.You hate fighting mesmer?

What about those who actually like the challenge? Or those that actually play mesmer?

People complain about everything. Anything. That at certain point in time they disagree. You can't take balance decisions based on that.Not a wonder why we keep getting completely random patch notes every 6 months. You can't balance a game this way.

Full disclosure: bolded part applies to me. So you're somewhat preaching to the choir. I'm just asking whether fun-factor matters. Because it sure seems like it based on the never-ending mesmer QQ threads we had for months on end, and Anet seems to have "balanced" based on those.

What people define as "fun" is going to vary from person to person, so balancing around "fun" is incredibly difficult. Some people's version of "fun" is trolling others, some people's version of "fun" is wrecking noobs, some people's version of "fun" is executing really skillful combos. If I had to pick which version of "fun" condi mirage was in its previous state, I'd say it's the kind where you're able to wreck almost everyone except those who are specifically designed to counter you. Condi mirage is still viable (I still see it regularly), but it's not so easy to win with now.In fact everyone been saying regardless of its representation in leadeboards its unfun for them and shouldnt exist and still whine goes on. It needed nerfs but not 67% damage nerfs and taking away somethin that always been there as confusion on traitline that wasnt part of the meta build. Just as all those attempts to nerf cmirage by ruin core class more and nerfing power based builds in process, because when they said they want to reduce condi burst they nerfed to hell power block. Cba to figure out what is the problem, too hard, nerf everything by another 50-70% and trash dodge that doesnt align with ambush itself. Spoiler: its not only bad(and your I SEE THEM REGULARY doesnt make it more viable btw), its unfun to play, especially with clunky scepter that most mesmers dont like.Have fun with scepter chrono now, what else to say. Lets see how long you/'knowledgable community' lasts until next OP NERF

I'm not sure how your points are relevant to the "fun" factor of playing the game. Are you blaming players for nerfs that the devs themselves chose?They used 'its unfun to play against regradless how good it is' and pretty much all nerfs were called by players . Such ridiculous numbers came from devs because when they balance mesmer they can only hand out 50% + nerfs and just dont know what to do with it.Actually... How is "fun" is relevant to balance at all?

[Vagrant.7206]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

Well, this isn't about winning Conquest.

I'm simply explaining that bursts like these exist and are unfair. This can be used as a troll method in custom servers, the FFA area and just promote overall toxicity and annoyance in Conquest. Don't even get me started on the implications this has in WvW.

Wait. What? How come this is not about winning?

Why do you even play this game mode?

Winning is nice, sure. But also to

have fun

.

So you guys actually understand that this is not an actual balance problem and that these builds are actually terrible.Yet still come to the forum to complain and ask nerfs about builds that statically can't win kitten.

Just because,

in your opinion,

you believe they are not fun?

Really?

If fun matters, and a lot of people find certain builds anti-fun, should that be ignored?

Various Mesmer builds have been QQ'd about for months as "anti-fun" even when discussion after discussion showed they're not necessarily unbalanced. Did fun-factor not matter there?

Of course not. Why? Because fun is subjective.You hate fighting mesmer?

What about those who actually like the challenge? Or those that actually play mesmer?

People complain about everything. Anything. That at certain point in time they disagree. You can't take balance decisions based on that.Not a wonder why we keep getting completely random patch notes every 6 months. You can't balance a game this way.

Full disclosure: bolded part applies to me. So you're somewhat preaching to the choir. I'm just asking whether fun-factor matters. Because it sure seems like it based on the never-ending mesmer QQ threads we had for months on end, and Anet seems to have "balanced" based on those.

What people define as "fun" is going to vary from person to person, so balancing around "fun" is incredibly difficult. Some people's version of "fun" is trolling others, some people's version of "fun" is wrecking noobs, some people's version of "fun" is executing really skillful combos. If I had to pick which version of "fun" condi mirage was in its previous state, I'd say it's the kind where you're able to wreck almost everyone except those who are specifically designed to counter you. Condi mirage is still viable (I still see it regularly), but it's not so easy to win with now.In fact everyone been saying regardless of its representation in leadeboards its unfun for them and shouldnt exist and still whine goes on. It needed nerfs but not 67% damage nerfs and taking away somethin that always been there as confusion on traitline that wasnt part of the meta build. Just as all those attempts to nerf cmirage by ruin core class more and nerfing power based builds in process, because when they said they want to reduce condi burst they nerfed to hell power block. Cba to figure out what is the problem, too hard, nerf everything by another 50-70% and trash dodge that doesnt align with ambush itself. Spoiler: its not only bad(and your I SEE THEM REGULARY doesnt make it more viable btw), its unfun to play, especially with clunky scepter that most mesmers dont like.Have fun with scepter chrono now, what else to say. Lets see how long you/'knowledgable community' lasts until next OP NERF

I'm not sure how your points are relevant to the "fun" factor of playing the game. Are you blaming players for nerfs that the devs themselves chose?They used 'its unfun to play against regradless how good it is' and pretty much all nerfs were called by players . Such ridiculous numbers came from devs because when they balance mesmer they can only hand out 50% + nerfs and just dont know what to do with it.Actually... How is "fun" is relevant to balance at all?

Because when the game stops being fun for players, people stop playing. That's why fun matters. Since an oppressively powerful build is only fun for the people playing it, the rest get turned off of the game and go elsewhere.

[storm.3120]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

Well, this isn't about winning Conquest.

I'm simply explaining that bursts like these exist and are unfair. This can be used as a troll method in custom servers, the FFA area and just promote overall toxicity and annoyance in Conquest. Don't even get me started on the implications this has in WvW.

Wait. What? How come this is not about winning?

Why do you even play this game mode?

Winning is nice, sure. But also to

have fun

.

So you guys actually understand that this is not an actual balance problem and that these builds are actually terrible.Yet still come to the forum to complain and ask nerfs about builds that statically can't win kitten.

Just because,

in your opinion,

you believe they are not fun?

Really?

If fun matters, and a lot of people find certain builds anti-fun, should that be ignored?

Various Mesmer builds have been QQ'd about for months as "anti-fun" even when discussion after discussion showed they're not necessarily unbalanced. Did fun-factor not matter there?

Of course not. Why? Because fun is subjective.You hate fighting mesmer?

What about those who actually like the challenge? Or those that actually play mesmer?

People complain about everything. Anything. That at certain point in time they disagree. You can't take balance decisions based on that.Not a wonder why we keep getting completely random patch notes every 6 months. You can't balance a game this way.

Full disclosure: bolded part applies to me. So you're somewhat preaching to the choir. I'm just asking whether fun-factor matters. Because it sure seems like it based on the never-ending mesmer QQ threads we had for months on end, and Anet seems to have "balanced" based on those.

What people define as "fun" is going to vary from person to person, so balancing around "fun" is incredibly difficult. Some people's version of "fun" is trolling others, some people's version of "fun" is wrecking noobs, some people's version of "fun" is executing really skillful combos. If I had to pick which version of "fun" condi mirage was in its previous state, I'd say it's the kind where you're able to wreck almost everyone except those who are specifically designed to counter you. Condi mirage is still viable (I still see it regularly), but it's not so easy to win with now.In fact everyone been saying regardless of its representation in leadeboards its unfun for them and shouldnt exist and still whine goes on. It needed nerfs but not 67% damage nerfs and taking away somethin that always been there as confusion on traitline that wasnt part of the meta build. Just as all those attempts to nerf cmirage by ruin core class more and nerfing power based builds in process, because when they said they want to reduce condi burst they nerfed to hell power block. Cba to figure out what is the problem, too hard, nerf everything by another 50-70% and trash dodge that doesnt align with ambush itself. Spoiler: its not only bad(and your I SEE THEM REGULARY doesnt make it more viable btw), its unfun to play, especially with clunky scepter that most mesmers dont like.Have fun with scepter chrono now, what else to say. Lets see how long you/'knowledgable community' lasts until next OP NERF

I'm not sure how your points are relevant to the "fun" factor of playing the game. Are you blaming players for nerfs that the devs themselves chose?They used 'its unfun to play against regradless how good it is' and pretty much all nerfs were called by players . Such ridiculous numbers came from devs because when they balance mesmer they can only hand out 50% + nerfs and just dont know what to do with it.Actually... How is "fun" is relevant to balance at all?

Because when the game stops being fun for players, people stop playing. That's why fun matters. Since an oppressively powerful build is only fun for the people playing it, the rest get turned off of the game and go elsewhere.If subjective "fun" is that matters then any kind of oneshot build shouldnt ever existed and nerfed to non-existance. As for example I dont find any bit of fun facing holosmiths on any class or sick em/boonbeast, would anet like to delete them for me?

[Eurantien.4632]

@Zephoid.4263 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:The thing is. This is melee range. With no teleports or pulls or anything. This requires full glass with every offensive trait, amulet, everything. If you know it's coming you can turn around and walk away and not get hit.

This isn't 100 nades pull and insta die. This isn't backstab from stealth insta die. This isn't 1200 range instant cast daze/immob -> 1 shot. This isn't rev port autoattacks.

It's a ranger that has to self buff and run up to you. If it hits you with swoop the buff isn't gone and you won't get hit so hard. The ranger has to walk. Throw out a cripple. Throw out an immob. Turn around and press W. get good positioning for the max 8s that ranger is Invisible (though it's probably more like 4).

Ranger isn't the same as other dps classes that can instantly kill you even when you know they're there. + ranger is probably the easiest dps class to kill with the lowest minimal kill time.

This is a l2p issue, hands down.

Or they can stealth. Because rangers get essentially free access with smokescale being one of the best pets in the game from a damage standpoint.

Again, for those who can't read. Smoke assault->ranger steps behind pillar and stealths->I back off expecting LB2->rapid so i readied stun break and poison cloud->takedown->i stun break and try to poison cloud->maul for 24k.

I'm not 'waiting around waiting for long cast time abilities'. I literally had to chose if i was fighting longbow or gs without actually seeing him or knowing how he was going to proceed. He had all of the options on how to attack me. That map has almost no cover and i was literally outside spawn.

Stun break and dodge. LoS and use marks when you can't see them. Don't play necro on a map bad for necro since almost everything kills necro in the open.

You had time to react and didn't and you got punished for it.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

Well, this isn't about winning Conquest.

I'm simply explaining that bursts like these exist and are unfair. This can be used as a troll method in custom servers, the FFA area and just promote overall toxicity and annoyance in Conquest. Don't even get me started on the implications this has in WvW.

Wait. What? How come this is not about winning?

Why do you even play this game mode?

Winning is nice, sure. But also to

have fun

.

So you guys actually understand that this is not an actual balance problem and that these builds are actually terrible.Yet still come to the forum to complain and ask nerfs about builds that statically can't win kitten.

Just because,

in your opinion,

you believe they are not fun?

Really?

If fun matters, and a lot of people find certain builds anti-fun, should that be ignored?

Various Mesmer builds have been QQ'd about for months as "anti-fun" even when discussion after discussion showed they're not necessarily unbalanced. Did fun-factor not matter there?

Of course not. Why? Because fun is subjective.You hate fighting mesmer?

What about those who actually like the challenge? Or those that actually play mesmer?

People complain about everything. Anything. That at certain point in time they disagree. You can't take balance decisions based on that.Not a wonder why we keep getting completely random patch notes every 6 months. You can't balance a game this way.

Full disclosure: bolded part applies to me. So you're somewhat preaching to the choir. I'm just asking whether fun-factor matters. Because it sure seems like it based on the never-ending mesmer QQ threads we had for months on end, and Anet seems to have "balanced" based on those.

What people define as "fun" is going to vary from person to person, so balancing around "fun" is incredibly difficult. Some people's version of "fun" is trolling others, some people's version of "fun" is wrecking noobs, some people's version of "fun" is executing really skillful combos. If I had to pick which version of "fun" condi mirage was in its previous state, I'd say it's the kind where you're able to wreck almost everyone except those who are specifically designed to counter you. Condi mirage is still viable (I still see it regularly), but it's not so easy to win with now.In fact everyone been saying regardless of its representation in leadeboards its unfun for them and shouldnt exist and still whine goes on. It needed nerfs but not 67% damage nerfs and taking away somethin that always been there as confusion on traitline that wasnt part of the meta build. Just as all those attempts to nerf cmirage by ruin core class more and nerfing power based builds in process, because when they said they want to reduce condi burst they nerfed to hell power block. Cba to figure out what is the problem, too hard, nerf everything by another 50-70% and trash dodge that doesnt align with ambush itself. Spoiler: its not only bad(and your I SEE THEM REGULARY doesnt make it more viable btw), its unfun to play, especially with clunky scepter that most mesmers dont like.Have fun with scepter chrono now, what else to say. Lets see how long you/'knowledgable community' lasts until next OP NERF

I'm not sure how your points are relevant to the "fun" factor of playing the game. Are you blaming players for nerfs that the devs themselves chose?They used 'its unfun to play against regradless how good it is' and pretty much all nerfs were called by players . Such ridiculous numbers came from devs because when they balance mesmer they can only hand out 50% + nerfs and just dont know what to do with it.Actually... How is "fun" is relevant to balance at all?

Because when the game stops being fun for players, people stop playing. That's why fun matters. Since an oppressively powerful build is only fun for the people playing it, the rest get turned off of the game and go elsewhere.If subjective "fun" is that matters then any kind of oneshot build shouldnt ever existed and nerfed to non-existance. As for example I dont find any bit of fun facing holosmiths on any class or sick em/boonbeast, would anet like to delete them for me?

The specs/builds you're describing aren't one-shots.

As for the zerk soulbeast... yeah, you're right. It should be nerfed because being one-shot isn't fun in an MMO.

[storm.3120]

@Vagrant.7206 said:The specs/builds you're describing aren't one-shots.

As for the zerk soulbeast... yeah, you're right. It should be nerfed because being one-shot isn't fun in an MMO.

Sic em is not a oneshot? :thinking:Also specs I described are not fun to play for me . Because fun matters ,right ?Some holo I dueled who had default meta build nearly 100-0 me with shield throw for 12k(stolen DH f3 ability that can do 12k damage above 50% heat, on lower cd than original,not powercreep boys) ,blunder for 5k and particle accelerator when I had no evade next to him and that happened nearly instant thanks to quickness . For having such sustain as it gets its highly stupid to get that much damage but since its not conditions its fine, i'm right?Oneshot builds delete you without letting you play the game thus extremely unhealthy and unfun but the same I could say about stunlock to death which holo(not even holo only,I seen some troll doing the same on scrapper)/warrior/chrono/ranger able to do.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

If a burst build can take down a bunker build 1v1 in less than 3 seconds from out of combat and without building up vulnerability or other damage boosting effects, that's clearly too much.
It's also too much when it can be done from stealth.

Stealth and revealed do not always work properly. For example:A model make take a bit to load after being revealed, giving the revealed player 1 or more seconds of extra invisibility.Animations start from the first frame when leaving stealth, instead for the actual animation frame at the time of being revealed. Because of that, it's impossible to know if a revealed enemy ha just started a finishing more or they are finishing, making timing interrupts properly nearly impossible.

Stealth could use some tweaking too. Something like what I mention here. Changing both improving combat with and against stealth.

It would also be nice in both WvW maps and PvP arenas had scattered in them a few 'stealth' areas that cover those inside like bushes, steam, smoke, holographic walls or grass, similar to the crops in the Reaper's Rumble activity and the tall grass in Sandswept Isles. Create some dangerous areas of uncertainty that people should think twice before approaching, giving stealth builds a chance to lay in way for victims without the need of infinite stealth stack.

[Crab Fear.1624]

As long as there are bunkers, no burst is too strong

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:As long as there are bunkers, no burst is too strong

And for those who are neither, one evil does not justify another.

I know you said "burst" but this thread is focused on OHK. Immortal bunkers and OHK are both unfun IMO.

[storm.3120]

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Zephoid.4263 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:The thing is. This is melee range. With no teleports or pulls or anything. This requires full glass with every offensive trait, amulet, everything. If you know it's coming you can turn around and walk away and not get hit.

This isn't 100 nades pull and insta die. This isn't backstab from stealth insta die. This isn't 1200 range instant cast daze/immob -> 1 shot. This isn't rev port autoattacks.

It's a ranger that has to self buff and run up to you. If it hits you with swoop the buff isn't gone and you won't get hit so hard. The ranger has to walk. Throw out a cripple. Throw out an immob. Turn around and press W. get good positioning for the max 8s that ranger is Invisible (though it's probably more like 4).

Ranger isn't the same as other dps classes that can instantly kill you even when you know they're there. + ranger is probably the easiest dps class to kill with the lowest minimal kill time.

This is a l2p issue, hands down.

Or they can stealth. Because rangers get essentially free access with smokescale being one of the best pets in the game from a damage standpoint.

Again, for those who can't read. Smoke assault->ranger steps behind pillar and stealths->I back off expecting LB2->rapid so i readied stun break and poison cloud->takedown->i stun break and try to poison cloud->maul for 24k.

I'm not 'waiting around waiting for long cast time abilities'. I literally had to chose if i was fighting longbow or gs without actually seeing him or knowing how he was going to proceed. He had all of the options on how to attack me. That map has almost no cover and i was literally outside spawn.

Stun break and dodge. LoS and use marks when you can't see them. Don't play necro on a map bad for necro since almost everything kills necro in the open.

You had time to react and didn't and you got punished for it.

This guy imply that we play not in guildwars2 but darksouls :joy:

[Zexanima.7851]

I think OHK is fine, but the stronger the skill/combo the bigger the tell needs to be. High risk, high reward. It shouldn't be do-able from stealth. It shouldn't never be do-able in under a second (the average reaction time is roughly .2 seconds so a second gives them plenty of time to react and consider a counter reaction). It should never be do-able without risk (e.g. Locks you in place with long cast time, you need to slot full glass to make it OHK, the visual and sound is big enough to alert the opponent)

[BlackTruth.6813]

@"Zexanima.7851" said:I think OHK is fine, but the stronger the skill/combo the bigger the tell needs to be. High risk, high reward. It shouldn't be do-able from stealth. It shouldn't never be do-able in under a second (the average reaction time is roughly .2 seconds so a second gives them plenty of time to react and consider a counter reaction). It should never be do-able without risk (e.g. Locks you in place with long cast time, you need to slot full glass to make it OHK, the visual and sound is big enough to alert the opponent)

Maul has a "big tell" but it's spammable 3 3/4 second cd, you run out of dodges to just that.

Now factor in soulbeast AUTOMATIC HIGH SKILL pet and other dodge baits/cd baits the ranger has... not very fair now is it?

Soulbeast won't die fast if you time GS cancel auto properly (God forbid that someone finds a tanky build that still does damage). You can say just catch them at the end of the auto-attack, what is to stop the pet from randomly peeling for the soulbeast.

And not to mention.. they can have a DECENT amount of unblockable uptime so they only have to pay attention to dodges.

Balanced class, hands down. This is why some "pro" ranger mains can make other classes work such as the old grenade engi post slick shoes nerf.

[Zexanima.7851]

@BlackTruth.6813 said:

@"Zexanima.7851" said:I think OHK is fine, but the stronger the skill/combo the bigger the tell needs to be. High risk, high reward. It shouldn't be do-able from stealth. It shouldn't never be do-able in under a second (the average reaction time is roughly .2 seconds so a second gives them plenty of time to react and consider a counter reaction). It should never be do-able without risk (e.g. Locks you in place with long cast time, you need to slot full glass to make it OHK, the visual and sound is big enough to alert the opponent)

Maul has a "big tell" but it's spammable 3 3/4 second cd, you run out of dodges to just that.

Now factor in soulbeast AUTOMATIC HIGH SKILL pet and other dodge baits/cd baits the ranger has... not very fair now is it?

Soulbeast won't die fast if you time GS cancel auto properly (God forbid that someone finds a tanky build that still does damage). You can say just catch them at the end of the auto-attack, what is to stop the pet from randomly peeling for the soulbeast.

And not to mention.. they can have a DECENT amount of unblockable uptime so they only have to pay attention to dodges.

Balanced class, hands down. This is why some "pro" ranger mains can make other classes work such as the old grenade engi post slick shoes nerf.

I agree with you. That's not one hit kill though. It is a problem, but that's a spam issue on maul.

[Pengu.7481]

i dont mind skills hitting for this if the build pulling these numbers are glass cannons in the purest sense. toss in sustain with that burst and it becomes a bit too broken tho xd but was honestly surprised when i saw this 50k dmg in 2 sec dropping me and killed me through downstate.i dunno, if its high risk high reward to play i dont mind at all since it can go either way. ofc not if ure gonna get rekted from stealth tho

[Vagrant.7206]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:The specs/builds you're describing aren't one-shots.

As for the zerk soulbeast... yeah, you're right. It should be nerfed because being one-shot isn't fun in an MMO.

Sic em is not a oneshot? :thinking:Also specs I described are not fun to play for me . Because fun matters ,right ?Some holo I dueled who had default meta build nearly 100-0 me with shield throw for 12k(stolen DH f3 ability that can do 12k damage above 50% heat, on lower cd than original,not powercreep boys) ,blunder for 5k and particle accelerator when I had no evade next to him and that happened nearly instant thanks to quickness . For having such sustain as it gets its highly stupid to get that much damage but since its not conditions its fine, i'm right?

Because I have a hard time understanding what you're saying, I'll say what I think you're saying:

• Holo launches photon wall above 50% heat and hits you for 12k?
• Holo blunderbusses you for 5k?
• Holo hits particle accelerator (and I presume static discharge with that as well)
• You don't go down, but nearly down.

Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.
2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.
3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.
4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

The comparison to DH F3 is an entire other complaint. The skills are similar, but you aren't taking into account how different the two classes are either. Regardless, I think that's a separate complaint that might have merit outside this discussion.

@Odik.4587 said:Oneshot builds delete you without letting you play the game thus extremely unhealthy and unfun but the same I could say about stunlock to death which holo(not even holo only,I seen some troll doing the same on scrapper)/warrior/chrono/ranger able to do.

Stunlocking is not the same as a oneshot build, not even close -- Oneshot builds provide almost no counterplay (they often come as a surprise or in stealth), but stunlock builds do have plenty of counterplay, because of things such as stunbreaks, stability, and teleports, on top of the usual smart positioning, dodging, and blocking. Rampage is potent because of its ability to stunlock, but there is plenty of counterplay to it as well. I don't think Rampage is balanced per se, but it is an example of something that can stunlock consistently, and it can be countered with smart play/buildcraft.

[storm.3120]

@"Vagrant.7206" said:

• Holo launches photon wall above 50% heat and hits you for 12k?
• Holo blunderbusses you for 5k?
• Holo hits particle accelerator (and I presume static discharge with that as well)
• You don't go down, but nearly down.

Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.
2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.
3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.
4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymoreAbout stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)