Kralkatorrik size

[Fenom.9457]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Castigator.3470 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Hesacon.8735" said:Modremoth

is

the entire jungle. The boss at the end of Dragon's Stand is just the Mouth of Mordremoth.

Except you're incorrect

, devs confirmed the situation.

Mordremoth's "main body" is the Mouth of Mordremoth, the vines are effectively "extra bodies", but that's the extent of Mordremoth. The jungle itself isn't Mordremoth, just the corrupted vines beneath the jungle.

Which is already large enough, as these things spread over to Fort Salma, and even past the Shiverpeaks into the Iron Marches. Mordremoth may not have the bulk of Primordus or Kralkatorrik, but Mordy is the elder dragon, whose body managed to stretch under significant amounts of central Tyria.Meanwhile Kralkatorrik has a more classical head, but how much of his body is a storm and how much of it is solid? To me it seems that the body of an elder dragon is actually mutable. This would explain how Primordus in GW1 looked like a fairly standard stone dragon, while in GW2 with all the extra magic, he grew his body to match the amount of available magic. Should the ambient magic recede, he'd have to resort to consuming his minions and eventually shedding parts of his overgrown body, until a compromise between bulk and sustainability is reached. After that, the elder dragons go to sleep, until the next fight/feast period begins.

The boost in magic would also explain how Kralkatorrik was able to cover the entire screen as a stormfront in Storm Tracking. (A most appropriately named mission.)

I don't disagree with your point of Mordremoth. I was just clarifying that Mordremoth isn't "the entire jungle" or the implication that the Mouth of Mordremoth isn't Mordremoth. Though it's less of one body and more of many bodies for Mordy.

As for Kralkatorrik's body, the ending cinematic of Path of Fire shows a silhouette of Kralk's body, which includes a very Shatterer-looking body overall (shattered wings, etc.). We see the clear outline of a classical European body. We even see his back in GW1, though that looked a lot more fleshy (which matches Edge of Destiny's description of him). That said, in Edge of Destiny as well as the final instance of Ep4, Kralkatorrik turns his body into a giant sandstorm (and I do mean giant, jeez), so his body is malleable to

some

degree.

And I'll disagree with semantics over Primordus looking "standard" to not looking standard. His GW2 appearance was a complete stereotypical lava dragon appearance to me, while in GW1 he had tendrils coming out of his shoulders.

I do hope that they go with the whole "Elder Dragons grow in size and become more elemental as they gain more magic". It would alleviate the way-too-drastic changes in appearance for Primordus and Kralkatorrik between the games, and help explain how Primordus didn't cause the entire continent to collapse as he moved underneath, if he was smaller when moving.

That would be an interesting plotline for a Primordus expansion - we have to keep him in the fire islands because now he's so big that if he moves the continent will start to cave in

[Castigator.3470]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And I'll disagree with semantics over Primordus looking "standard" to not looking standard. His GW2 appearance was a complete stereotypical lava dragon appearance to me, while in GW1 he had tendrils coming out of his shoulders.Ah, sorry for not clarifying: By more standard, I mean his body looked a lot closer to the other dragon we met: Glint.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Ah, yes, there was definitely a similarity between GW1 Primordus and Glint.

[Randulf.7614]

I did look at every opportunity into the Brandstorm within the Mists, but we never saw Kralk in Dragon form in the current episode right?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Randulf.7614 said:Correct. He was surrounded by the brandsand storm (which is notably different than a brandstorm), but Blish did see Kralkatorrik just before his final transmission.

Not sure whether I was disappointed at no head in the wall of roiling purple sand or not.

[Castigator.3470]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Correct. He was surrounded by the brandsand storm (which is notably different than a brandstorm), but Blish did see Kralkatorrik just before his final transmission.

Not sure whether I was disappointed at no head in the wall of roiling purple sand or not.

To me this made Kralkatorrik move closer to cosmic horror territory than previously. I mean, Kralkatorrik may have been the greediest of the elder dragons when it came to magic, so him breaking into the Mists is like a child breaking into the sweets factory. Except this child gets more powerful for each bit of sugar it eats.To the point where just being near him kills you.Kralkatorrik has been a mobile Thaumanova accident ever since he awakened, but current Kralkatorrik would have oneshot Balthazar and the warbeast. So I can understand if the ghosts wanted to get Aurene to act quickly, but as Aurene's vision showed, we are past the point where a frontal assault on Kralkatorrik has any chance of success. We need to come up with something else, a weapon maybe, that allows us to salvage the unsalvageable.

[Tyson.5160]

Actually when you play the last mission you can actually see Kralkatorrik off in the distance fighting the ghost spirits. Mind you it’s just his head.

[Randulf.7614]

@Tyson.5160 said:Actually when you play the last mission you can actually see Kralkatorrik off in the distance fighting the ghost spirits. Mind you it’s just his head.

Is this before the running and screaming bit? I'll have look more carefully on my next toon

[Tyson.5160]

Yeah right when you start in the Mists. Look over to your Left.

[squeegee.4320]

This is the kind of thing I dislike. We saw from GW1 that Kralk was huge. The spines on his back formed an entire mountain ridge. But Primordous was almost Glint-sized and didn't look at all the same.The trend of making enemies "big" is totally dumb. For example, why did Lazarus the Dire suddenly grow to 1200 times the size of a normal Mursaat after being awakened?And don't give me the answer of "uhhh, bloodstone".

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@"narwhalsbend.7059" said:This is the kind of thing I dislike. We saw from GW1 that Kralk was huge. The spines on his back formed an entire mountain ridge. But Primordous was almost Glint-sized and didn't look at all the same.The trend of making enemies "big" is totally dumb. For example, why did Lazarus the Dire suddenly grow to 1200 times the size of a normal Mursaat after being awakened?And don't give me the answer of "uhhh, bloodstone".

I will note that mursaat were already a fair bit larger than humans, and bosses even more so. Lazarus was scaled up a bit, but against the larger end of the spectrum in GW1, I'd guesstimate only about 40%.

I will also note that the devs backtracked on the idea of the statue being Primordus last year. They haven't decisively confirmed or denied it, but they're at least playing with the idea that it was only another champion, a la Drakkar.

[squeegee.4320]

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:I will also note that the devs backtracked on the idea of the statue being Primordus last year. They haven't decisively confirmed or denied it, but they're at least playing with the idea that it was only another champion, a la Drakkar.Is there anything that isn't getting changed? I expect it at this point."Oh, btw, Rurik was an Elder Dragon champion all along!" <- I'm waiting for this.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

I sympathize with the sentiment, but this one doesn't bother me too much. Like you pointed out, the statue was puny to be an Elder Dragon, even by the scale established in EotN. The bigger risk here would be losing a pretty cool model for something much more generic, but considering that we've only seen the tip of Primordus' snout so far, we can't really say where the devs will wind up taking him yet.

[Yilia.7509]

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:It would actually have been better if they went with the amorphous interpretation of Elder creatures so big that "Dragon" is a mere reference and the magic they sucked turned them into eldritch horrors with no defined shape. It would then be easy for Kralkatorrik to be a huge mass of tendrils inside a storm that can conjure a dragon head and Primordus to be an immense bobblehead of molten rock spanning miles. Zhaitan would be even easier being composed of a mass of rotten dragon tissue.

Anyway, we have not seen Bubbles yet but I'd wager it is definitely what they planned for "ocean sized" biggest creature contender. They never have to actually show this one fully because lol deep oceans and it has definitely driven the most races out of their home that we know of. It also must have found some pretty sweet Leylines down there because it's basically the only dragon that didn't march dangerously close to mainland Tyria yet, so it is also eating up undisturbed.

As long as he is eating magic in the deep sea that is good for us as he is not a threat for us. The eating of magic is a good thing as it reduces the total free magic on the planet. There is the possibility that he just does his thing and then falls back asleep without us ever seeing him. That could change though if the Largos ask us to help them against him (which wouldn't be like them) or if he moves closer to us (why should he, he has plenty of magic down there) or, and that one is my favorite, we get a cantha expansion and they do have a problem with bubbles down there.

[Yilia.7509]

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:lol lol the Primordus insane size. perhaps but would not it be purposeful? Who knows if they come back with this story that "Mordremoth is the whole jungle" in a "primordus is the whole earth" version.

Maybe he is the whole amount of lava inside the planet. If Tyria is built like our planet, then we would have a problem, as what we live on is just a comparatively tiny crust on a giant blob of lava.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Tyson.5160 said:Actually when you play the last mission you can actually see Kralkatorrik off in the distance fighting the ghost spirits. Mind you it’s just his head.

Strange, I looked around all over at the beginning and only saw the wyverns.

@"narwhalsbend.7059" said:This is the kind of thing I dislike. We saw from GW1 that Kralk was huge. The spines on his back formed an entire mountain ridge. But Primordous was almost Glint-sized and didn't look at all the same.The trend of making enemies "big" is totally dumb. For example, why did Lazarus the Dire suddenly grow to 1200 times the size of a normal Mursaat after being awakened?And don't give me the answer of "uhhh, bloodstone".

The statue was definitely larger than Glint. It's a bit about perspective, but it was more Drakkar size. And that was just the head, neck, shoulders, and those weird shoulder tendril things. And Drakkar was about at least twice Glint's size (we should hit up that_shaman to see if he could dat-dive and compare those models).

And Lazarus wasn't much bigger than in GW1, tbh; his levitation makes him seem larger, and ArenaNet has a habit of enlarging bosses for sake of visibility which has existed since GW1. I believe Lazarus (and disguised Balthazar), uses the norn model in a mursaat outift, which was then upscaled by the system's innate rank-scaling system where veterans, champions, and legendaries are progressively larger than the last/normal+elite foes (elite foes are excluded - or were - due to them originally only being in dungeons).

The norn size matches GW1 perfectly, so then it would just be the upscaling size from making him a legendary ranked foe.

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:I will also note that the devs backtracked on the idea of the statue being Primordus last year. They haven't decisively confirmed or denied it, but they're at least playing with the idea that it was only another champion, a la Drakkar.

Their statement stemmed from the notion of "we never said the statue was Primordus" which simply isn't the case. I had since dug up numerous interviews where they did (specifically, Jeff Grubb did), and had placed such on the wiki. Of course, they now handwave anything not in-game as "semi-canon at best" so they're still likely to go with this falsehood.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Actually when you play the last mission you can actually see Kralkatorrik off in the distance fighting the ghost spirits. Mind you it’s just his head.

Strange, I looked around all over at the beginning and only saw the wyverns.

Start the last mission when you are in the Mists and look left kinda up the hill on the instance border, you will see him in the background.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Their statement stemmed from the notion of "we never said the statue was Primordus" which simply isn't the case. I had since dug up numerous interviews where they did (specifically, Jeff Grubb did), and had placed such on the wiki. Of course, they now handwave anything not in-game as "semi-canon at best" so they're still likely to go with this falsehood.

It's been a long while, so I might be sticking my foot in my mouth here, but if I recall correctly they just said that it'd never been established in-game. I believe there was a sentence or two specifically addressing how it'd been batted back and forth out of game, but that they ultimately didn't want to tie their hands over that.

[Kossage.9072]

Regarding the whole lore about whether the dragon seen at the end of EotN was Primordus or not, the simplest way for ANet to solve this issue and keep everyone happy is explain Primordus's change away by:
1) him nomming on magic over the centuries which changed his appearance (similar to Kralkatorrik appearing more fleshy in Edge of Destiny without that hollow neck we see in the present day in game which could similarly be explained away by magic mutation), or
2) his GW2 form actually being a gigantic protective layer keeping the true, core Primordus (the GW1 model) inside similar to Lavos from Chrono Trigger or titans from Attack on Titan.

I'd actually prefer the second option as it opens lots of cool event ideas for devs to work with. Imagine if we have a story instance or an open world event where we fight the titanic GW2 Primordus in Tyrian version of a hellish landscape (think Primal Kiln from Draconis Mons except times thousand with even more vivid imagery fitting a final boss) and eventually blast through him. Then, in a story instance, we enter the core of Primordus to face his true (and more manageable) form, giving us that mano y mano dragon showdown with Primordus which Avatar of Mordremoth attempted but couldn't because of Mordy's true form being more transcendental than the bipedal attempt to face us. :)

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Yeah, ret-conning or whatever the Primordus statue like that would just be weak and unimaginative, and frankly just a dick move. You can't keep changing things without good reason or waving away things that are inconvenient if you want any of the players to continue to give a shit about the story, much less the game as a whole.

Either use the idea that Primordus changed over the centuries of snacking on magic, or find anther way of explaining why you used a radically different model for him. Your supposed to be able to be creative to be a writer, so put in some effort on that front.

[aceofbass.2163]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Vyko.6953 said:I have Primordus head too, but the size looks unreal. They maybe made that model bad sized, because that head would took the whole zone! :open_mouth: I dont know. But other models looked always correct - im comparing always with character size. Of course I cant compare Kralk, but i think he is in acceptable size.

Here is comparison render of Primordus and Kralkatorrik:

Jeeze, I thought they'd be a bit closer together. That size for Primordus definitely doesn't make any sense after all. Not unless he was a freakin bobblehead dragon. All of Kryta should have collapsed into a sinkhole when Primordus moved to the Ring of Fire.

But now I'm wanting to see the comparison of all four Elder Dragons together, with Zhaitan's original dead model that was just head, neck, and wing. I know Zhaitan and Mordremoth will both be tiny compared to Kralkatorrik's new appearance, but I'm most curious about "what could have been" with Zhaitan's old one, before they scrapped it because it was too big for a fight.

I think i remember in one of the guild chats the devs say the primordus model used in the ring of fire was just placeholder modeled after the crocodiles in SAB scaled up. We still dont know how big or how primordus will look like in gw2.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"aceofbass.2163" said:I think i remember in one of the guild chats the devs say the primordus model used in the ring of fire was just placeholder modeled after the crocodiles in SAB scaled up. We still dont know how big or how primordus will look like in gw2.

I believe what was said was that during development, they had used an upscaled SAB crocodile as a placeholder until they had the model done.

That is Primordus, so we know how big he/his head is, and we know how his head looks.

What they said was "the GW1 statue isn't Primordus, we never said it was" which was, as I pointed out recently, incorrect.

[Randulf.7614]

@aceofbass.2163 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Vyko.6953 said:I have Primordus head too, but the size looks unreal. They maybe made that model bad sized, because that head would took the whole zone! :open_mouth: I dont know. But other models looked always correct - im comparing always with character size. Of course I cant compare Kralk, but i think he is in acceptable size.

Here is comparison render of Primordus and Kralkatorrik:

Jeeze, I thought they'd be a bit closer together. That size for Primordus definitely doesn't make any sense after all. Not unless he was a freakin bobblehead dragon. All of Kryta should have collapsed into a sinkhole when Primordus moved to the Ring of Fire.

But now I'm wanting to see the comparison of all four Elder Dragons together, with Zhaitan's original dead model that was just head, neck, and wing. I know Zhaitan and Mordremoth will both be tiny compared to Kralkatorrik's new appearance, but I'm most curious about "what could have been" with Zhaitan's old one, before they scrapped it because it was too big for a fight.

I think i remember in one of the guild chats the devs say the primordus model used in the ring of fire was just placeholder modeled after the crocodiles in SAB scaled up. We still dont know how big or how primordus will look like in gw2.

One of the guild chats specifically mentioned the head is the final model since they talked long and hard about whether the should reveal his look or not. In the end they went with it.

As for their deciding the statue in GW1 wasn't Primordus, I'm not going to dignify their comments as being true. That was Primordus, end of discussion. If they want to go round it, they can say magic grew and altered it. That is a perfectly acceptable workaround. Precedent is already set given that the spine of Kralk noticeably differs from what he looks like now in terms of skin tone and crystal growths (apparently Kralk also has green blood - I look forward to testing if that has changed too!!)

But them deciding suddenly they don't want that statue to be Primordus just because of semantics on their part is simply a disrespect to their own lore and game. Enough of that has been done in various degrees, I would hope not to see it for this case.

[Castigator.3470]

@Randulf.7614 said:One of the guild chats specifically mentioned the head is the final model since they talked long and hard about whether the should reveal his look or not. In the end they went with it.

As for their deciding the statue in GW1 wasn't Primordus, I'm not going to dignify their comments as being true. That was Primordus, end of discussion. If they want to go round it, they can say magic grew and altered it. That is a perfectly acceptable workaround. Precedent is already set given that the spine of Kralk noticeably differs from what he looks like now in terms of skin tone and crystal growths (apparently Kralk also has green blood - I look forward to testing if that has changed too!!)

But them deciding suddenly they don't want that statue to be Primordus just because of semantics on their part is simply a disrespect to their own lore and game. Enough of that has been done in various degrees, I would hope not to see it for this case.

Why would they need to deny that? They could explain that Primordus works in a similar manner to Gaheron's godform, where the original is still present within the larger object. We're talking about beings with enough power to end civilizations. Why shouldn't they be able to alter their body?

[Randulf.7614]

@Castigator.3470 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:One of the guild chats specifically mentioned the head is the final model since they talked long and hard about whether the should reveal his look or not. In the end they went with it.

As for their deciding the statue in GW1 wasn't Primordus, I'm not going to dignify their comments as being true. That was Primordus, end of discussion. If they want to go round it, they can say magic grew and altered it. That is a perfectly acceptable workaround. Precedent is already set given that the spine of Kralk noticeably differs from what he looks like now in terms of skin tone and crystal growths (apparently Kralk also has green blood - I look forward to testing if that has changed too!!)

But them deciding suddenly they don't want that statue to be Primordus just because of semantics on their part is simply a disrespect to their own lore and game. Enough of that has been done in various degrees, I would hope not to see it for this case.

Why would they need to deny that? They could explain that Primordus works in a similar manner to Gaheron's godform, where the original is still present within the larger object. We're talking about beings with enough power to end civilizations. Why shouldn't they be able to alter their body?

That's exactly what I just said. They should be able to alter their body.