So the commander is he better then the hero of guild wars 1?

[Pax.3548]

@"Teratus.2859" said:As for the White Mantle.. we did more or less wipe them out, after joinging and then turning on them when we realized what they were, we were forced to flee Kryta with the Shining Blade and then sent to the Crystal Desert to undergo ascention.We returned to Kryta many years later with new allies after traveling the world and achieving great feats to once again ally with the Shining Blade and eradicate the Murzaat and White Mantle once and for all in the War in Kryta.The Murzaat were eradicated entirely with the exception of Lazarus and the White Mantle were destroyed, Somehow a few loyalists survived likely as prisoners and overtime rebuilt themselves in secret but in Gw1 we completely destroyed their army, ideology and political power.

Just to complement this I would like to point out how the White Mantle survived:

After the battle of Lion's arch, members of the white mantle (who presumably didn't take part in the battle) fled west towards the maguuma jungle by order of a certain Leader, during some quests we follow Keiran's footsteps after the battle, and there we trail these white mantle and read a certain missive which I'll quote:

"He has spoken. You must lead your forces into the depths of the Maguuma Jungle. Shed your mantle and disappear, but do not fall silent. While your men disperse, we will lead an assault on Beetletun in the guise of the Shining Blade. We will cast doubt over the usurpers, shake their foundation, and become the poison that seals the fate of the traitor, Salma."

I guess the purpose of this was to make sure the mantle survived so that later it could rebuild and recover its strength to take back Kryta.

The White Mantle in Gw2 were nowhere near as powerful as they were in Gw1.. if anything they were more like a sad little cult of fanatics

I wouldn't go that far, if Balthazar didn't pose as Lazarus Kryta would have been invaded by a fully united white mantle behind a evil but talented strategist, and that could have caused some damage, but instead only half its forces remained with Caedecus (who I imagined was so desperate by his situation he began to eat bloodstone, which took away his intelligence and drove him mad) while the other half was, in the end, trashed by Balthazar.

[Susy.7529]

I'd say yes just because we don't need an 8-men party to simply explore a map and kill mobs, unless monsters have become significantly weaker.Also GW1 hero couldn't swim nor jump. xD

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

I wouldn't say "better" but they definitely achieved more at this stage.

And the thing with GW1 is that each campaign is separate so you could be talking about 3 different heroes (1 hero per campaign so 1 hero for Prophecy, another for Factions, another for Nightfall) or you could be talking about one single hero who goes through all three campaigns.

If the case is that it's 3 separate heroes per campaign then that definitely means that the Commander will have achieved more than each GW1 hero.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:If the case is that it's 3 separate heroes per campaign then that definitely means that the Commander will have achieved more than each GW1 hero.

But if it's the case that it's one hero who went through all three campaigns, it draws a similar parallel to whats happening now. They're both globe trotting god-killing heroes facing the threat of eldritch tier world ending monsters and the GW2 commander more or less picks up the duty where the GW1 hero left off.

¯\(ツ)/¯They're both pretty crazy (awesome) people.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:If the case is that it's 3 separate heroes per campaign then that definitely means that the Commander will have achieved more than each GW1 hero.

But if it's the case that it's one hero who went through all three campaigns, it draws a similar parallel to whats happening now. They're both globe trotting god-killing heroes facing the threat of eldritch tier world ending monsters and the GW2 commander more or less picks up the duty where the GW1 hero left off.

¯\

(ツ)

/¯They're both pretty crazy (awesome) people.

Exactly. The hero of GW1 left a Legacy which the Commander is continuing on. So regardless of the Commander's initial race, they continue on where GW1 hero left off. And if the GW1 hero was alive at the time of GW2, I'm pretty sure they would be doing the same things as the Commander (if not working side by side with one another). The actions of characters from GW1 (Koss, Ogden and Glint being the major ones) shows that what the Commander is doing now is not a deviation from the GW1 hero's path.

[adormtil.1605]

Honestly in regards to Glint he destroyed her plans. He basically just plans on the moment and it works. Who needs well thought plans spanning hundreds of years at the sacrifice of entire civilizations. That is for heroes who do not make their own plans.

[crepuscular.9047]

in terms of amplitude in magic, current tyrian beings are probably better because of that extra 200 so years of additional leaking of magic from elder dragons back to the world

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Pax.3548" said:I think you cannot accept these things as archievements on its own right, being biased by our good old time in gw1. I said in my original post that I considered the commander's personal strength to be superior of the gw1 hero because of the fact he could fight, 1 on 1, against many dangerous foes. Yes in some of them he got assisted, but still, he managed to stand up and beat foes one on one, while gw1 hero always fought with his team, never having faced a "boss" character one on one.

Joko not being defeated? seroiusly he was completely deformed by the end of the fight and that wasn't an act, he was defeated, just not killed (because of his inmortality), and he had a trap under his sleeve in case he found himself in that position, as the commander would clearly lower their guard. Killing your opponent isn't a prerequisite to win a fight you know?

Nostalgia of GW1 is irrelevant. Most of those fights - with pretty much two or three exceptions - are not 1 on 1. Just because you wish it to be so doesn't make it so.

Neither the Hero nor the Commander had many one-on-one fights.

I say Joko wasn't defeated because, unlike when Turai defeated Joko, Joko just got right back up and instantly triggered a trap from a prone, dead-like state on the ground that made the Commander completely immobilized. He had a trump card the entire battle, and was merely playing the Commander into letting them think they had the upper hand when Joko had it the entire time. Sure, Joko was beaten down into a crippled state, but even that was just part of the ploy in the end.

If it wasn't Zhaitan but instead one of the gods we fought in the personal story, I think the result would have been similar: a dead god, with a hell of a lot cassualties, just like Zhaitan.

Well, no, there'd be one major difference. Either there'd be a new god at the end of the battle, or the world would be destroyed within minutes. Same with what happened when fighting Abaddon.

For your comparison, keep in mind that the scope of the Crystal Desert is ultimately about four times the size of Orr. Then we have these other facts:And yet it was the combined magic of the 6 gods battling that created it.If we want to get technical, it was from "Abaddon's defeat" which is very ambiguous. Given that Abaddon literally lost his body, there is an implication that it could have been from his body breaking up and his magic momentarily unleashing before being contained in a new vessel that was still Abaddon. Or it could have been from an attack by all five gods against Abaddon, or the clash of Abaddon versus all five, or it could have been from a clash of three gods overpowering Abaddon, or Abaddon clashing with three, or some other wacky combination.

Besides, it was the gw1 hero, a tyrian mortal, who expressed that Abaddon's power could destroy the world, for all we know, the hero could be wrong, or he/she could have had exagerated a bit. But still, only his/her word isn't enough now to still believe a gods divine power alone could destroy a whole world, IMO.

A notion that Kormir reiterated during Facing the Truth though, and the same situation happened with Balthazar but on a much smaller scale. The magical hurricane that Balthazar unleashed, based on the cinematic, covered at least half of Vabbi alone. And Balthazar during PoF was still at a fraction of his old self.

• The rise of a god resulted in warping land dimensions away, while the rise of an Elder Dragon only warped equivalent land nearby.Zhaitan's awakening did change Tyria's landcape, in a manner of speaking. Could you point out me these warped lands? I can't recall any.

Tomb of the Primeval Kings and, more drastically, Nightfallen Garden is the most notable, which reverts after killing Abaddon. There's also the mission-only Nundu Bay, and the would-soon-be Nightfallen Jahai that was about to merge with normal Jahai Bluffs. Then there were the thousands of Abaddon tendrils seen throughout the Desolation, such as in this image, that are no longer present in GW2 except at Lair of the Forgotten and Tombs of the Primeval Kings.

Was literally all over the bloody place.

• The Six can freely enter and leave the Mists, even setting up dominion in the very heart of all reality itself (the Hall of Heroes), while the Elder Dragons - until recently - were trapped in Tyria like most unaided mortals.Gods are beings from the mist, they are connected to it, because of that the ability to create rifts and traverse the mist must be intrinsicate to their magic, its not because of their inmense power that they can do this, its because of what they are that they can (Balthazar could create these rifts, even after he was no longer a god), the elder dragons aren't beings from the mist, but Kralkattorik and Aurene eating Balthazar's magic allowed them to adquire that particular gift.

Regarding the hall of heroes, I believe if all 6 elder dragons worked together (like the gods) and could create rifts, like the gods they too could have easily settled up dominion in the hall of Heroes.

There are bound to be more god-like in the entire multiverse if one random planet they stumbled upon had Elder Dragons. So why haven't any of these beings made their claim for the Hall of Heroes if the Elder Dragons could were they to work together? In the theoretically hundreds if not thousands of planets, are there no group of god-like being that work together? Seems statistically implausible.

And the gods are not originally from the Mists. Like humans, they come from another world. They traveled through the Mists from that world, but do not originate from the Mists any more than humanity or any Tyrian race.

Kralkatorrik created a massive brand on Tyria's landscape simply by breathing... not to mention the very aura that covers the dragon.More than "simply breathing". It was an active choice on Kralkatorrik's part. It was a passive act on Kormir's.Was it an active choice? and where is that mentioned?

Edge of Destiny novel, repeatedly. Pretty much slaps it in your face that Kralkatorrik branding is an active feat of his.

The way its described during the battle against Destiny's Edge could be like the blasts that Kralkatorrik gives in All or Nothing. The one that Braham tried to block, and the one that killed Aurene (and I'm sure there were more).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Teratus.2859 said:Balthazar and Abaddon along with Dhuum are all fallen largely depowered Gods.

Abaddon was still a full fledged god when we fought him in Nightfall.

@Teratus.2859 said:What is curious about the 3 though is that there is a running trend with 2 of them and the 3rd has not been clarified in gw2.When Dhuum was first defeated as a god.. Grenth took his power and ascended to Godhood.Likewise when Abaddon was destroyed.. Kormir ascended to Godhood.When Balthazar was destroyed.. Something wierd happened to Aurine.. and all this talk of ascention in recent patches strongly suggests something similar could have happened to her.Granted we all know what happened in the last episode but i'm not convinced it'll stick.... bad pun intended :P

Balthazar had no divinity in him anymore when he was killed. His position as god was taken already. Aurene can't become the new god of war without massive retcons to lore.

Which, granted, hasn't stopped ArenaNet before. Though this retcon would be on a brand new scale.

@"Arewn.2368" said:So wait, I'm not super familiar with GW1 lore, but you seem to be making some leaps here in determining how powerful Abaddon was. If your only indicator that Abandon is "twice as powerful as the other gods" is that he defeated two gods (at once, presumably), then that in no way indicates he is "twice as powerful". Defeating two of something doesn't make you twice that something. Take, for example, PVP. Someone winning a 1v2 doesn't mean their class is "twice as good". It doesn't even mean their skill was "twice as good". It just means they were appropriately kitted and sufficiently skilled to manage a 2v1.Even if that was true, it would be the sum of the two he faced, and they aren't all equal. Was it the two "weakest" gods? Did he have some sort of inherit advantage against them (water puts out fire)? Not to mention the gods are all very different, and surely some have powers that are more suited to combat then others. A more powerful X could be defeated by a less powerful Y in a fight if Y's power is more suited to fighting. There's just way to much at play to so simply assume "beat two, therefore twice as strong".

"Reach" also isn't indicative of the potency of his power. It's indicative, at most, of the nature of his power. On it's own, it just means the nature of the ED's power requires contact, and the nature of Abaddon's power allows for the kind of reach he demonstrated. Another crude example, an archer can shoot an arrow from a bow a lot farther then a warrior can throw an arrow, but that doesn't make the archer "better". They are just more suitable for launching projectiles great distances.Abaddon had a clear motive and link to mettle with Tyria from the RoT, the ED's haven't had such a situation pushing them to do that.Obviously we have to work with what we have, and there's going to be a lot of assumptions involved, but these things aren't really directly comparable.

From a logical standpoint, your argument holds weight. There is some leeway there. But literary, which is the style of the source for that, "besting 20 men" or the like was equivalent to saying "was as strong as 20 men". It is a very, very common practice - especially among mythologies and pieces trying to sound mythological.

The source doesn't mention which two - or if there is any individual two. It merely says that Abaddon was capable of winning against two gods but not five. The wording implying that it didn't matter which two, he would always win. Which is more than winning once in a 1v2 PvP match, but rather implies that no matter what, that 1v2 match would have the same exact results.

The exact wording is:

"Abbadon was so powerful, even two gods together could not stop him. Finally, under the siege by the five gods, Abbadon was defeated and imprisioned, never to be involved in worldly matters again."https://guildwiki.gamepedia.com/Talk:Abaddon/Archive_1#Background_story_on_Abbadon

"Abaddon was the mightiest of the gods, and for a while, the war went in his favor. In the end, however, he was no match for the combined strength of all the Five."https://web.archive.org/web/20160304180141/http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/76125-why-abaddon-turned-evil/page__st__30?do=findComment&comment=2100579

It's pointblank stated he was mightiest of them, and that two gods were not able to stop him, but five did.

And it wasn't just the reach, but what he was able to do within that reach, and at how much of his full, still locked-away, strength he had while doing such.

[Pax.3548]

Nostalgia of GW1 is irrelevant. Most of those fights - with pretty much two or three exceptions - are not 1 on 1. Just because you wish it to be so doesn't make it so.

I see you didn't get my point, oh well keep believing it.

Neither the Hero nor the Commander had many one-on-one fights.

Sure

I say Joko wasn't defeated because, unlike when Turai defeated Joko, Joko just got right back up and instantly triggered a trap from a prone, dead-like state on the ground that made the Commander completely immobilized. He had a trump card the entire battle, and was merely playing the Commander into letting them think they had the upper hand when Joko had it the entire time. Sure, Joko was beaten down into a crippled state, but even that was just part of the ploy in the end.

I think we can agree to disagree regarding this point.

If we want to get technical, it was from "Abaddon's defeat" which is very ambiguous. Given that Abaddon literally lost his body, there is an implication that it could have been from his body breaking up and his magic momentarily unleashing before being contained in a new vessel that was still Abaddon. Or it could have been from an attack by all five gods against Abaddon, or the clash of Abaddon versus all five, or it could have been from a clash of three gods overpowering Abaddon, or Abaddon clashing with three, or some other wacky combination.

a charged attack from the 5 god that finally struck down Abaddon, I would go for that.

Besides, it was the gw1 hero, a tyrian mortal, who expressed that Abaddon's power could destroy the world, for all we know, the hero could be wrong, or he/she could have had exagerated a bit. But still, only his/her word isn't enough now to still believe a gods divine power alone could destroy a whole world, IMO.

A notion that Kormir reiterated during Facing the Truth though, and the same situation happened with Balthazar but on a much smaller scale. The magical hurricane that Balthazar unleashed, based on the cinematic, covered at least half of Vabbi alone. And Balthazar during PoF was still at a fraction of his old self.

Your're welcome to quote kormir since she said nothing regarding that, she merely replayed the death of abaddon cinematic. And Balthazar absorbed a bloostone, which is said it can cause a nuclear explosion if shattered, which is what we see at his death, as he released its magic (but we got saved by Aurene and, ironically, Kralkatorrik).

Tomb of the Primeval Kings and, more drastically, Nightfallen Garden is the most notable, which reverts after killing Abaddon. There's also the mission-only Nundu Bay, and the would-soon-be Nightfallen Jahai that was about to merge with normal Jahai Bluffs. Then there were the thousands of Abaddon tendrils seen throughout the Desolation, such as in this image, that are no longer present in GW2 except at Lair of the Forgotten and Tombs of the Primeval Kings.

Was literally all over the bloody place.

Oh you meant that? well mordemoth did something similar didn't he? just check Forsaken Thicket raids wings, specially wing 2, you'll clearly see his handy work all over the place and he even got less time than abaddon to do that kind of damage. Oh and the Iron Marches, and fort salma, and concordia. Guess the land shaping capabilities is common for both dragons and gods eh?.

There are bound to be more god-like in the entire multiverse if one random planet they stumbled upon had Elder Dragons. So why haven't any of these beings made their claim for the Hall of Heroes if the Elder Dragons could were they to work together? In the theoretically hundreds if not thousands of planets, are there no group of god-like being that work together? Seems statistically implausible.

Maybe because they aren't interested in doing that? Elder dragons in Tyria focused on one thing, eating magic, its in our cycle that things began to change since elder dragons began to die. Its likely there are more beings similar in power to dragons and gods, but they may not be interested in the affairs of other planets or the mists nor working with other beings who hold equal power to them. But I guess we'll learn more in time.

[Arewn.2368]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:From a logical standpoint, your argument holds weight. There is some leeway there. But literary, which is the style of the source for that, "besting 20 men" or the like was equivalent to saying "was as strong as 20 men". It is a very, very common practice - especially among mythologies and pieces trying to sound mythological.

The source doesn't mention which two - or if there is any individual two. It merely says that Abaddon was capable of winning against two gods but not five. The wording implying that it didn't matter which two, he would always win. Which is more than winning once in a 1v2 PvP match, but rather implies that no matter what, that 1v2 match would have the same exact results.

The exact wording is:

"Abbadon was so powerful, even two gods together could not stop him. Finally, under the siege by the five gods, Abbadon was defeated and imprisioned, never to be involved in worldly matters again."https://guildwiki.gamepedia.com/Talk:Abaddon/Archive_1#Background_story_on_Abbadon

"Abaddon was the mightiest of the gods, and for a while, the war went in his favor. In the end, however, he was no match for the combined strength of all the Five."https://web.archive.org/web/20160304180141/http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/76125-why-abaddon-turned-evil/page__st__30?do=findComment&comment=2100579

It's pointblank stated he was mightiest of them, and that two gods were not able to stop him, but five did.

And it wasn't just the reach, but what he was able to do within that reach, and at how much of his full, still locked-away, strength he had while doing such.

Ah yea that makes sense. I just wasn't sure what context "twice as powerful" came from.The only other thing I would add is that, from what I'm seeing, it took Abaddon 1000 years to do what he did. It's still a great feat, but there's more to the circumstances. A mist traveling god of knowledge spending 1000 years to figure out how to squeak his powers through a seal forged by his own former allies (who were each his lesser) to affect a world he has connections to (there's apparently a rift to the RoT where he fell) from across the mist with the aid of two other demi-god-like figures (menzies and dhuum, from what I'm finding). That's kind of hard to quantify as a feat and compare to, say, the raising and corrupting of Orr. But it does strikes me as less impressive then simply "he twisted the world from a different dimension while at 3/8ths power".

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Well, no, there'd be one major difference. Either there'd be a new god at the end of the battle, or the world would be destroyed within minutes. Same with what happened when fighting Abaddon.

If we want to get technical, it was from "Abaddon's defeat" which is very ambiguous. Given that Abaddon literally lost his body, there is an implication that it could have been from his body breaking up and his magic momentarily unleashing before being contained in a new vessel that was still Abaddon. Or it could have been from an attack by all five gods against Abaddon, or the clash of Abaddon versus all five, or it could have been from a clash of three gods overpowering Abaddon, or Abaddon clashing with three, or some other wacky combination.

A notion that Kormir reiterated during Facing the Truth though, and the same situation happened with Balthazar but on a much smaller scale. The magical hurricane that Balthazar unleashed, based on the cinematic, covered at least half of Vabbi alone. And Balthazar during PoF was still at a fraction of his old self.

The talk of world ending in GW always seems exaggerated to me. The greatest feat of the gods (multiple gods, at that) is turning a small (relative to the world) region into a desert. Impressive, but at most I could see them destroying Tyria (the region), not Tyria (the planet).Are we really to believe that some foreign gods arrive at some magic rich planet, are tame enough to mundanely inhabit and interact with the world, and their greatest feat of power only affected a small region, but should even one of them die the world will end unless you throw a blessed human body into the mix to contain it?Even the talk of the world being destroyed if too many Elder Dragon's die just doesn't connect. Is the planet going to shatter, torn to shreds and scattered through the mists? Become a literal unlivable wasteland? Meteor that wiped out the dinosaur's level? Or more along the lines of Global Warming perhaps? where rapid global changes will make habitation difficult or impossible in many regions (in this case, due to rampant magic)?They like to go on about the world being in danger, but it seems like they're either unreliable narrators, or subject to literary exaggerations.Or maybe the writers just didn't establish the scale very well. There's settings like World of Warcraft where this fits, since they have cosmically powerful planet destroying beings and actually including broken worlds in the setting. But in GW2 it just doesn't feel like they're running the story at that scale, even with the repeated talk of "the world being destroyed".The elder dragons, with their "forces of nature" motif might have a global affect in the capacity that Global Warming/Climate change could, sure. But that's the extent I can really picture it being. The immediate fallout of one of the six dying uncontained still only strikes me as being a regional or continental threat.All of which is of course still very bad and needs combating. It's just not planet ending.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@"Arewn.2368" said:The elder dragons, with their "forces of nature" motif might have a global affect in the capacity that Global Warming/Climate change could, sure. But that's the extent I can really picture it being.

You could say their rise and fall are part of a natural cycle. The world wouldn't stop existing if we left them alone, but the current civilization thats accumulated thus far would be wiped clean. World extinction event. We kinda don't want to lay down and die and we've become united and impressive enough we can resist and fight back these extinction monsters.

And it's not like we couldn't coexist. The current Elder Dragons are just insatiable cosmic jerks who want to gorge themselves until the world (and themselves) fall into a state of dormancy. Glint's plan is to replace the cosmic gluttons with benevolent EDs that can tactfully balance the magic in the world and not kill everyone in the process.

Some Forgotten even tried to "purify" Kralkatorrik himself. It didn't end well. So it's not like we're not trying to get along. They just really don't care about us, with Glint and subsequently her children being the sole exceptions... and if status quo keeps we've run out of potential friendly ED's and instead have a super charged mists hopping one that's probably mighty sore with us.

The immediate fallout of one of the six dying uncontained still only strikes me as being a regional or continental threat.All of which is of course still very bad and needs combating. It's just not planet ending.

The battle and defeat of Abaddon (not death) was enough to create the Crystal Desert from the Crystal Sea. That was merely the fighting and the defeat. Abaddon's actual death in Nightfall was enough to start the current Elder Dragon cycle we're experiencing and his power was unbound for only a moment before Kormir contained it and replaced him. That mere moment was enough to get the ball rolling.

Left uncontained if it didn't destroy the world outright, it would have grievously unbalanced The All and the EDs would have certainly awoken much sooner than they did. Abaddon was never properly stripped of his divinity. He was merely beaten down and imprisoned until the events of Nightfall.

Balthazar's death in his current state (bloodstone and ED charged demi-god) uncontained would have been a continental threat. Most of Elona would have been wiped out. Kralkatorrik and Aurene contained it. But it wouldn't have destroyed the entire world. Balthazar was properly stripped of his divinity and presumably replaced by someone.

Balthazar's entire campaign in finding an opportunity to return to Tyria was to accumulate power from Tyria from it's EDs and bloodstones to become strong enough to challenge and defeat the gods. Which he may well have. The EDs are very powerful and the gods acknowledge a possibility of losing to them. If he succeeded, he would have destroyed the world of Tyria in the process.

It's a pretty safe bet to say that one of the full-divinity gods dying and releasing their uncontained power on the world of Tyria would outright destroy the world in the same way killing too many EDs would.

[Arewn.2368]

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:

You could say their rise and fall are part of a natural cycle. The world wouldn't stop existing if we left them alone, but the current civilization thats accumulated thus far would be wiped clean. World extinction event. We kinda don't want to lay down and die and we've become united and impressive enough we can resist and fight back these extinction monsters.

And it's not like we couldn't coexist. The current Elder Dragons are just insatiable cosmic jerks who want to gorge themselves until the world (and themselves) fall into a state of dormancy. Glint's plan is to replace the cosmic gluttons with benevolent EDs that can tactfully balance the magic in the world and not kill everyone in the process.

Some Forgotten even tried to "purify" Kralkatorrik himself. It didn't end well. So it's not like we're not trying to get along. They just really don't care about us, with Glint and subsequently her children being the sole exceptions... and if status quo keeps we've run out of potential friendly ED's and instead have a super charged mists hopping one that's probably mighty sore with us.

I think you're misunderstanding a little here. I was referring to this being a consequence of too many elder dragons dying.Like if we kill Kralk right now, I can't really picture the world getting destroyed outright, but I could picture the above happening. Based on the scale of the world and what they've actually demonstrated their power to be capable of.

The battle and defeat of Abaddon (not death) was enough to create the Crystal Desert from the Crystal Sea. That was merely the fighting and the defeat. Abaddon's actual death in Nightfall was enough to start the current Elder Dragon cycle we're experiencing and his power was unbound for only a moment before Kormir contained it and replaced him. That mere moment was enough to get the ball rolling.

Left uncontained if it didn't destroy the world outright, it would have grievously unbalanced The All and the EDs would have certainly awoken much sooner than they did. Abaddon was never properly stripped of his divinity. He was merely beaten down and imprisoned until the events of Nightfall.

Balthazar's death in his current state (bloodstone and ED charged demi-god) uncontained would have been a continental threat. Most of Elona would have been wiped out. Kralkatorrik and Aurene contained it. But it wouldn't have destroyed the entire world. Balthazar was properly stripped of his divinity and presumably replaced by someone.

Balthazar's entire campaign in finding an opportunity to return to Tyria was to accumulate power from Tyria from it's EDs and bloodstones to become strong enough to challenge and defeat the gods. Which he may well have. The EDs are very powerful and the gods acknowledge a possibility of losing to them. If he succeeded, he would have destroyed the world of Tyria in the process.

It's a pretty safe bet to say that one of the full-divinity gods dying and releasing their uncontained power on the world of Tyria would outright destroy the world in the same way killing too many EDs would.Bit of a difference in perspective here. You described it as "he didnt even die, and it still cause all that" whereas I see it as "all six gods participated and they merely caused the crystal desert".It's like, what that's it? With all six of these gods and one of them falling, all they could manage was something the scale of the crystal desert? The worlds a pretty big place. That doesn't seem like that much for a fight involving six gods each of whose powers are supposedly capable of ending the world.And waking the dragon's doesn't seem to be that difficult. At least not so difficult that you could take doing so as an indicator of having the power to destroy the world. Scarlet woke one, and Primordus was almost woken early by his champion. So what if his death kick started the next ED cycle, that doesn't really seem to be an indicator that it was a world ending amount of power.I know the story keeps yelling in our face that "this that and the other will destroy the world", and so I guess we have to accept that it would, but looking at what actually goes on it just doesn't feel that way to me.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Arewn.2368 said:

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:

You could say their rise and fall are part of a natural cycle. The world wouldn't stop existing if we left them alone, but the current civilization thats accumulated thus far would be wiped clean. World extinction event. We kinda don't want to lay down and die and we've become united and impressive enough we can resist and fight back these extinction monsters.

And it's not like we couldn't coexist. The current Elder Dragons are just insatiable cosmic jerks who want to gorge themselves until the world (and themselves) fall into a state of dormancy. Glint's plan is to replace the cosmic gluttons with benevolent EDs that can tactfully balance the magic in the world and not kill everyone in the process.

Some Forgotten even tried to "purify" Kralkatorrik himself. It didn't end well. So it's not like we're not trying to get along. They just really don't care about us, with Glint and subsequently her children being the sole exceptions... and if status quo keeps we've run out of potential friendly ED's and instead have a super charged mists hopping one that's probably mighty sore with us.

I think you're misunderstanding a little here. I was referring to this being a consequence of too many elder dragons dying.Like if we kill Kralk right now, I can't really picture the world getting destroyed outright, but I could picture the above happening. Based on the scale of the world and what they've actually demonstrated their power to be capable of.It's been made clear multiple times that killing too many Elder Dragon's or otherwise throwing the balance of The All way off (killing and unleashing ridiculous amounts of alien divine magic into the system IE the human gods) will destroy Tyria.

Unless they can be replaced they're a necessary element of what keeps the world together.

Bit of a difference in perspective here. You described it as "he didnt even die, and it still cause all that" whereas I see it as "all six gods participated and they merely caused the crystal desert".It's like, what that's it? With all six of these gods and one of them falling, all they could manage was something the scale of the crystal desert? The worlds a pretty big place. That doesn't seem like that much for a fight involving six gods each of whose powers are supposedly capable of ending the world.And waking the dragon's doesn't seem to be that difficult. At least not so difficult that you could take doing so as an indicator of having the power to destroy the world. Scarlet woke one, and Primordus was almost woken early by his champion. So what if his death kick started the next ED cycle, that doesn't really seem to be an indicator that it was a world ending amount of power.I know the story keeps yelling in our face that "this that and the other will destroy the world", and so I guess we have to accept that it would, but looking at what actually goes on it just doesn't feel that way to me.

OK. You're not impressed. Your feelings are one thing and the current canon is another.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Boiling away sea and turning it into a desert, however big that sea and subsequent desert is compared to the rest of the world, is still massive and far beyond anything the Elder Dragons have done intentionally, the fact it's just collateral from the Gods' conflict only makes the occasion more notable.

The Elder Dragons intend to corrupt and change the landscape, and do it for a purpose, the Gods did it as collateral from fighting in the region, when it was not their intention to do so.

It is simply fact that the amount of energy it takes to boil away an entire sea over the course of one fight that might have lasted for a week at most, is mind boggling, that people continue to claim it's "not a big deal" honestly staggers me.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Arewn.2368 said:I think you're misunderstanding a little here. I was referring to this being a consequence of too many elder dragons dying.Like if we kill Kralk right now, I can't really picture the world getting destroyed outright, but I could picture the above happening. Based on the scale of the world and what they've actually demonstrated their power to be capable of.

Just gonna focus on this since @"ThatOddOne.4387" summarized my points for the rest well and quickly.

But regarding the Elder Dragons' death = world's death, keep in mind that the Elder Dragons are connected to The All. What causes the world's destruction isn't the power from the Elder Dragons. As Taimi says in Flashpoint, the increase of magic in the world is still reasonable to be fixed after the fact; it was The All's imbalance, caused by Elder Dragon being connected to the six spheres in The All and dying, which would destroy the world.

The increase in magic can be argued to be akin to global warming that increases in spikes with ED deaths. But the All's imbalance would be more akin to, say, the Earth's core going out of whack. If the core ceases to spin and cools down, then the world would die and become like Mars over a (relatively) short period of time making the planet fully inhospitable. Though based on

it'd be a bit more dramatic than that (world actually exploding with four ED deaths).

That's why the "strength of the Elder Dragons" is ultimately irrelevant to their deaths meaning the world's destruction. It has nothing to do with their strength, but rather their connection to The All, which remains a mystery as to what exactly it is beyond "the world's balanced life-force". Effectively, killing the Elder Dragons is like a human losing ~10% of their blood - at 10% it's no big deal (that's the high range for blood donations), but at ~40%, the stress on the body's too great and a human would die from blood loss.

Healthiness of the blood (strength of an Elder Dragon) doesn't matter if you're losing it (killing Elder Dragons) without a blood transfusion (a replacement like Aurene).

Also keep in mind that the Elder Dragons are still in the early phase of their awakening cycle, when they're low on magic and the world's high on magic still, which means that they're still at their weakest points (well, prior to PoF's ending at least). Based on lore about the previous awakening cycle, it could take about 7,000 years for them to drain magic from the world naturally (depending on the discrepancy between the "10,000 years ago" dates and the "3,000 years ago" dates, the former associated with the ED, the latter associated with Glint and the Forgotten). So the Elder Dragons, sans arguably Kralkatorrik and Primordus, would be weaker now than they normally would.

[CETheLucid.3964]

I have a theory that it might be possible the human gods could have acted as ED replacements but that doing so locks you into Tyria forever or until you're replaced (in theory, we still haven't pulled this off) and of course in doing battle with the EDs they might lose and destroy the world/make the situation even worse (Balthazar, but he was going to be a treacherous asshole regardless of the outcome).

The six human gods have taken a "well screw this silly world, we'll just find another" and Glint's plan is/was to fix it by introducing benevolent EDs that won't destroy the civilizations of Tyria in doing what they do which is to uphold the cosmic balance of magic in Tyria. Finding a new world eliminates all those potential risks and it doesn't come with the possible burden of being an immovable magical scale.

I have a further thought we might end up with factions in the future.

---

Assuming we manage to succeed in replacing an ED somehow (we get Aurene back, Aurene can act as an ED from the mists for some reason, we somehow convert Kralkatorrik or another ED to our way of thinking) we develop a long term plan/process to slowly fix Tyria's The All with benevolent EDs per Glint's idea.

VS

A new revelation/full disclosure from the gods/new war god saying hello also quit calling me Balthazar already that they've found or are looking for a better world and anyone that wants to come just has to accept their offer. All races are invited (except maybe sylvari because ED origins, sylvari end up being the foundation of this tyrian loyalists faction to what most humans would be to the gods faction). Big empty bountiful world.

It'll be a min though. Also the migration when it happens might upset The All and the guys trying to fix it (benevolent EDs, tyrian loyalists) really don't appreciate that. Might end up undoing all the work they're doing to fix it. This creates the big strife and the world becomes separated along the Tyrian/Glint loyalists VS the gods and the coming new world.

---

But that's just a theory. In the past the gods and Glint were friendly with each other but Glint does say they were keeping things from her. That they know things she doesn't.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:The six human gods have taken a "well screw this silly world, we'll just find another" and Glint's plan is/was to fix it by introducing benevolent EDs that won't destroy the civilizations of Tyria in doing what they do which is to uphold the cosmic balance of magic in Tyria. Finding a new world eliminates all those potential risks and it doesn't come with the possible burden of being an immovable magical scale.

Personally, I don't think the Six have gone with a "screw this world" mentality. Yes, they left Tyria, but during Crystalline Memories, Glint suggests that the Forgotten not only told the Six about the plan, but more than they've told Glint (this even alludes back to Vlast's memories in Kesho, where he is disgruntled over how the Exalted and Forgotten treat Glint's plan as if it were their own and not hers), similarly in the Garden of the Gods item, there's indication they plan to return to Tyria once finding this world. So to me it seems like the Six are enacting on a contingency plan in case Plan A (Glint's Legacy) and Plan B (whatever the Forgotten didn't tell Glint which we may or may not find out this upcoming episode) fail.

To me, it sounds like they have every intention of returning if Plans A or B work, but they're remain in their distant "just hanging out in the afterlives of Tyria" that they've done recently.

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:A new revelation/full disclosure from the gods/new war god saying hello also quit calling me Balthazar already that they've found or are looking for a better world and anyone that wants to come just has to accept their offer. All races are invited (except maybe sylvari because ED origins, sylvari end up being the foundation of this tyrian loyalists faction to what most humans would be to the gods faction). Big empty bountiful world.

It'll be a min though. Also the migration when it happens might upset The All and the guys trying to fix it (benevolent EDs, tyrian loyalists) really don't appreciate that. Might end up undoing all the work they're doing to fix it. This creates the big strife and the world becomes separated along the Tyrian/Glint loyalists VS the gods and the coming new world.

This would be pretty hard to pull off. Firstly, this seems like an "end of the game" plot, since it works on the notion of leaving Tyria and, effectively, losing the battle. And given the layoff situation, it seems ArenaNet has to make GW2 last with profits. Even then, it'd be hard to justify the mechanics of returning to Tyria from this new world if the plot ever goes through.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:The six human gods have taken a "well screw this silly world, we'll just find another" and Glint's plan is/was to fix it by introducing benevolent EDs that won't destroy the civilizations of Tyria in doing what they do which is to uphold the cosmic balance of magic in Tyria. Finding a new world eliminates all those potential risks and it doesn't come with the possible burden of being an immovable magical scale.

Personally, I don't think the Six have gone with a "screw this world" mentality. Yes, they left Tyria, but during Crystalline Memories, Glint suggests that the Forgotten not only told the Six about the plan, but more than they've told Glint (this even alludes back to Vlast's memories in Kesho, where he is disgruntled over how the Exalted and Forgotten treat Glint's plan as if it were their own and not hers), similarly in the Garden of the Gods item, there's indication they plan to return to Tyria once finding this world. So to me it seems like the Six are enacting on a contingency plan in case Plan A (Glint's Legacy) and Plan B (whatever the Forgotten didn't tell Glint which we may or may not find out this upcoming episode) fail.

To me, it sounds like they have every intention of returning

if

Plans A or B work, but they're remain in their distant "just hanging out in the afterlives of Tyria" that they've done recently.

I hope not. I like Tyria and we're putting in a ton of work to see the world as it is saved. They just seem really really distant and have a very hands off approach to the entire situation.

"If you guys win, that's great... we'll uh... find a new world to hang out in just in case!"

It's for the best I suppose. Don't want the world to blow up.

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:A new revelation/full disclosure from the gods/new war god saying hello also quit calling me Balthazar already that they've found or are looking for a better world and anyone that wants to come just has to accept their offer. All races are invited (except maybe sylvari because ED origins, sylvari end up being the foundation of this tyrian loyalists faction to what most humans would be to the gods faction). Big empty bountiful world.

It'll be a min though. Also the migration when it happens might upset The All and the guys trying to fix it (benevolent EDs, tyrian loyalists) really don't appreciate that. Might end up undoing all the work they're doing to fix it. This creates the big strife and the world becomes separated along the Tyrian/Glint loyalists VS the gods and the coming new world.

This would be pretty hard to pull off. Firstly, this seems like an "end of the game" plot, since it works on the notion of leaving Tyria and, effectively, losing the battle. And given the layoff situation, it seems ArenaNet

has

to make GW2 last with profits. Even then, it'd be hard to justify the mechanics of returning to Tyria from this new world if the plot ever goes through.

That's fair. I didn't really think it through, it was just a thought rattling around in my head. With the loss of Aurene if it sticks, we've lost all of Glint's children. It feels like we've lost.

I'm really curious about this possible Plan B absent a scion. Or if Aurene is really really gone.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@CETheLucid.3964 said:The six human gods have taken a "well screw this silly world, we'll just find another" and Glint's plan is/was to fix it by introducing benevolent EDs that won't destroy the civilizations of Tyria in doing what they do which is to uphold the cosmic balance of magic in Tyria. Finding a new world eliminates all those potential risks and it doesn't come with the possible burden of being an immovable magical scale.

Personally, I don't think the Six have gone with a "screw this world" mentality. Yes, they left Tyria, but during Crystalline Memories, Glint suggests that the Forgotten not only told the Six about the plan, but more than they've told Glint (this even alludes back to Vlast's memories in Kesho, where he is disgruntled over how the Exalted and Forgotten treat Glint's plan as if it were their own and not hers), similarly in the Garden of the Gods item, there's indication they plan to return to Tyria once finding this world. So to me it seems like the Six are enacting on a contingency plan in case Plan A (Glint's Legacy) and Plan B (whatever the Forgotten didn't tell Glint which we may or may not find out this upcoming episode) fail.

To me, it sounds like they have every intention of returning

if

Plans A or B work, but they're remain in their distant "just hanging out in the afterlives of Tyria" that they've done recently.

I hope not. I like Tyria and we're putting in a ton of work to see the world as it is saved. They just seem really really distant and have a very hands off approach to the entire situation.

"If you guys win, that's great... we'll uh... find a new world to hang out in just in case!"

It's for the best I suppose. Don't want the world to blow up.

@CETheLucid.3964 said:A new revelation/full disclosure from the gods/new war god saying hello also quit calling me Balthazar already that they've found or are looking for a better world and anyone that wants to come just has to accept their offer. All races are invited (except maybe sylvari because ED origins, sylvari end up being the foundation of this tyrian loyalists faction to what most humans would be to the gods faction). Big empty bountiful world.

It'll be a min though. Also the migration when it happens might upset The All and the guys trying to fix it (benevolent EDs, tyrian loyalists) really don't appreciate that. Might end up undoing all the work they're doing to fix it. This creates the big strife and the world becomes separated along the Tyrian/Glint loyalists VS the gods and the coming new world.

This would be pretty hard to pull off. Firstly, this seems like an "end of the game" plot, since it works on the notion of leaving Tyria and, effectively, losing the battle. And given the layoff situation, it seems ArenaNet

has

to make GW2 last with profits. Even then, it'd be hard to justify the mechanics of returning to Tyria from this new world if the plot ever goes through.

That's fair. I didn't really think it through, it was just a thought rattling around in my head. With the loss of Aurene if it sticks, we've lost all of Glint's children. It feels like we've lost.

I'm really curious about this possible Plan B absent a scion. Or if Aurene is really really gone.

Plan B:

Kill all the Dragons to create the biggest Firework Tyria has ever seen.

Lets go down in style!

[CETheLucid.3964]

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@CETheLucid.3964 said:The six human gods have taken a "well screw this silly world, we'll just find another" and Glint's plan is/was to fix it by introducing benevolent EDs that won't destroy the civilizations of Tyria in doing what they do which is to uphold the cosmic balance of magic in Tyria. Finding a new world eliminates all those potential risks and it doesn't come with the possible burden of being an immovable magical scale.

Personally, I don't think the Six have gone with a "screw this world" mentality. Yes, they left Tyria, but during Crystalline Memories, Glint suggests that the Forgotten not only told the Six about the plan, but more than they've told Glint (this even alludes back to Vlast's memories in Kesho, where he is disgruntled over how the Exalted and Forgotten treat Glint's plan as if it were their own and not hers), similarly in the Garden of the Gods item, there's indication they plan to return to Tyria once finding this world. So to me it seems like the Six are enacting on a contingency plan in case Plan A (Glint's Legacy) and Plan B (whatever the Forgotten didn't tell Glint which we may or may not find out this upcoming episode) fail.

To me, it sounds like they have every intention of returning

if

Plans A or B work, but they're remain in their distant "just hanging out in the afterlives of Tyria" that they've done recently.

I hope not. I like Tyria and we're putting in a ton of work to see the world as it is saved. They just seem really really distant and have a very hands off approach to the entire situation.

"If you guys win, that's great... we'll uh... find a new world to hang out in just in case!"

It's for the best I suppose. Don't want the world to blow up.

@CETheLucid.3964 said:A new revelation/full disclosure from the gods/new war god saying hello also quit calling me Balthazar already that they've found or are looking for a better world and anyone that wants to come just has to accept their offer. All races are invited (except maybe sylvari because ED origins, sylvari end up being the foundation of this tyrian loyalists faction to what most humans would be to the gods faction). Big empty bountiful world.

It'll be a min though. Also the migration when it happens might upset The All and the guys trying to fix it (benevolent EDs, tyrian loyalists) really don't appreciate that. Might end up undoing all the work they're doing to fix it. This creates the big strife and the world becomes separated along the Tyrian/Glint loyalists VS the gods and the coming new world.

This would be pretty hard to pull off. Firstly, this seems like an "end of the game" plot, since it works on the notion of leaving Tyria and, effectively, losing the battle. And given the layoff situation, it seems ArenaNet

has

to make GW2 last with profits. Even then, it'd be hard to justify the mechanics of returning to Tyria from this new world if the plot ever goes through.

That's fair. I didn't really think it through, it was just a thought rattling around in my head. With the loss of Aurene if it sticks, we've lost all of Glint's children. It feels like we've lost.

I'm really curious about this possible Plan B absent a scion. Or if Aurene is really really gone.

Plan B:

Kill all the Dragons to create the biggest Firework Tyria has ever seen.

Lets go down in style!

[brenda.9723]

I think the gw1 hero faced different challenges then the gw2 commander. In GW1 is it unclear at first who the real enemies are. In GW2 it is very clear which factions and characters are evil and the enemy.

Btw: the hero helping Joko was not a mistake. It was not a perfect option, but the best option the hero had. Because without Joko's help the hero wouldnt been able to defeat Abaddon (a greater problem then joko).

[adormtil.1605]

was flying not an thing back then?

[Pax.3548]

@brenda.9723 said:Btw: the hero helping Joko was not a mistake. It was not a perfect option, but the best option the hero had. Because without Joko's help the hero wouldnt been able to defeat Abaddon (a greater problem then joko).

The questionable thing about this, however, is that the hero didn't deal with Joko after abaddon (they freed him, so they should have dealt with him), they probably underestimated Joko as a threat, but that costed Elona big time.

[RedShark.9548]

@Susy.7529 said:I'd say yes just because we don't need an 8-men party to simply explore a map and kill mobs, unless monsters have become significantly weaker.Also GW1 hero couldn't swim nor jump. xD

Lel, want to talk about metaevents on maps? Where around 50 ppl beat on one enemy...

Your argument is invalid.

Edit: not even meta events, simple group events require sometimes more than 8 ppl.