With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

[Pengu.7481]

@"JETWING.2759" said:They can't do all these things on same build... All Holo builds requires tradeoffs to get access to some thing.

• Invul, for example requires a exclusive utility slot only for 3s invul and stealth and the Holo can't attack or cap point while this state. The CD is 60s for invul and 45s for stealth, access to reduced CD requires equip "Alchemy" and HgH over PoP and IB, loosing acces to more damage by equiping Alchemy and more defense and group support.alchemy is pretty much meta at this point. not a tradeoff. also running elixir holo u can only use HGH since POP is only used by PROT holo and IB was used on exceed builds and dosnt make sense to use on elixir build. im qurious to know what traitline u have in mind to replace alchemy?

• Umblockable requires equip a 60s CD elite that requires a static target that just watch the skill channels. Equip that lazer requires loss of access to more heal, defence, cleanses, CC(Juggernaut and Tornado has more CC than PLB) and damage(Mortar kit and Juggernaut does more damage than PLB).well PLB is an awesome skill to build burst around. u should never just stand still and open/use it (except in stealth ofc so ppl arent seeing the windup). but using it in burst combo its quite deadly to finish a kill. or launch downed targets to deny a ress. but also the only unblockable used in meta build atm so OP's point is kinda mute tbh. Regarding the elixir X , the 50/50% chance for rampage is the most annoying aspect, hence i can see why ppl using PLB since they know what they are getting when pressing the elite skill button. mortar kit is just slow and clunky to use tbh.

• Photon Forge requires loss of acces to kits and ranged attacks while active. On some buids, go overheated means death sentence. On some other builds, go overheated means loss of access to sustain via TRV.and sure photon forge is technically a tradeoff but its also a straight upgrade to engi. pls stop using this argument. if photonforge was a real tradeoff u would see more core engi's / scrapper (not the bunker kind) since ppl would choose those specs for dps since the tradeoff for holo was too much or wasnt to their liking

[Vagrant.7206]

@toxic.3648 said:

• Photon Forge
  requires loss of acces to kits and ranged attacks while active. On some buids, go overheated means death sentence. On some other builds, go overheated means loss of access to sustain via TRV.and sure photon forge is technically a tradeoff but its also a straight upgrade to engi. pls stop using this argument. if photonforge was a real tradeoff u would see more core engi's / scrapper (not the bunker kind) since ppl would choose those specs for dps since the tradeoff for holo was too much or wasnt to their liking

Sigh.

It's not a straight upgrade. There are tradeoffs and drawbacks.

Are these tradeoffs/drawbacks severe? No. Nobody's saying that holo doesn't give you a hell of a lot more than it takes away. But core's in the gutter, and scrapper is... super boring to play. The drawbacks aren't severe precisely for this reason -- the CD on kits isn't a big deal because kits themselves aren't that big a deal any more. The loss of the f5 skill isn't world-shattering because most of them just aren't game-changers. The overheating isn't hard to mitigate with practice. The other minor niggles can be overlooked because PF is quite powerful.

[Pengu.7481]

@toxic.3648 said:

and sure photon forge is technically a tradeoff but its also a straight upgrade to engi. pls stop using this argument. if photonforge was a real tradeoff u would see more core engi's / scrapper (not the bunker kind) since ppl would choose those specs for dps since the tradeoff for holo was too much or wasnt to their liking

@Vagrant.7206 said:Sigh.

It's not a straight upgrade. There are tradeoffs and drawbacks.

Are these tradeoffs/drawbacks severe? No. Nobody's saying that holo doesn't give you a hell of a lot more than it takes away<--(this is the upgrade). But core's in the gutter, and scrapper is... super boring to play. The drawbacks aren't severe precisely for this reason -- the CD on kits isn't a big deal because kits themselves aren't that big a deal any more. The loss of the f5 skill isn't world-shattering because most of them just aren't game-changers. The overheating isn't hard to mitigate with practice. The other minor niggles can be overlooked because PF is quite powerful.

dud u are literally repeating what im saying

[Vagrant.7206]

@toxic.3648 said:

@toxic.3648 said:

and

sure photon forge is technically a tradeoff

but its also a straight upgrade to engi. pls stop using this argument. if photonforge was a real tradeoff u would see more core engi's / scrapper (not the bunker kind) since ppl would choose those specs for dps since the tradeoff for holo was too much or wasnt to their liking

@"Vagrant.7206" said:Sigh.

It's not a straight upgrade. There are tradeoffs and drawbacks.

Are these tradeoffs/drawbacks severe? No. Nobody's saying that holo doesn't give you a hell of a lot more than it takes away<--(this is the upgrade). But core's in the gutter, and scrapper is... super boring to play. The drawbacks aren't severe precisely for this reason -- the CD on kits isn't a big deal because kits themselves aren't that big a deal any more. The loss of the f5 skill isn't world-shattering because most of them just aren't game-changers. The overheating isn't hard to mitigate with practice. The other minor niggles can be overlooked because PF is quite powerful.

dud u are literally repeating what im saying

What you said was:

"It is a tradeoff. But it isn't actually."

That's not a position. That's all positions.

[coro.3176]

If Holo gave up all its toolbelt skills, that would be a serious tradeoff, and would be more in line with the power increase PF currently adds on top of core engi.

Alternatively, if heat was actually difficult to manage (currently, any competent holo will never overheat unless they choose to), it could make the spec actually risky to play. That would be a real drawback. Maybe PF skills could add some % more heat than they currently do.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

@coro.3176 said:If Holo gave up all its toolbelt skills, that would be a serious tradeoff, and would be more in line with the power increase PF currently adds on top of core engi.

Alternatively, if heat was actually difficult to manage (currently, any competent holo will never overheat unless they choose to), it could make the spec actually risky to play. That would be a real drawback. Maybe PF skills could add some % more heat than they currently do.

Perhaps the PF should be shut down five seconds later rather than immediately ，toolbelt skills also need to be different from core.

[Dirame.8521]

I am sorry guys, I really cannot see how Holosmith Elixir build is OP. 15k healing is something to you? For goodness sake, Reaper does 30k on their Reapershroud 4 on the reg, 13-17k on Axe 2 and you're complaining about 15k healing? I can get condi-bombed in 5s by a Scourge and that health lead is zapped so quick I wonder why I even tried.

If you really think Holo is OP ... My goodness you ain't seen nothing yet.

[mortrialus.3062]

@coro.3176 said:If Holo gave up all its toolbelt skills, that would be a serious tradeoff, and would be more in line with the power increase PF currently adds on top of core engi.

Alternatively, if heat was actually difficult to manage (currently, any competent holo will never overheat unless they choose to), it could make the spec actually risky to play. That would be a real drawback. Maybe PF skills could add some % more heat than they currently do.

I'd rather see something like Photon Forge requiring a 10s cooldown to before you have the option to exit.

The main problem with holosmith aside from its overloaded self healing and resustain for 0 stat investment is how spammy it is, photon forge especially. Photon forge is technically a trade off since you lose the elite toolbelt, as hilariously minor as that loss truly is.

The overheat mechanic is supposed to be the inhibitor to counter how spammy Photon Forge can be and how crazy high the skills on it are tuned. Right now heat as an inhibitor is basically a dead mechanic. With a 5 second timer to exit you're always able to leave and never forced to consider holding back on certain skills because of your heat threshold.

[Silinsar.6298]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"coro.3176" said:If Holo gave up

all

its toolbelt skills, that would be a serious tradeoff, and would be more in line with the power increase PF currently adds on top of core engi.

Alternatively, if heat was actually difficult to manage (currently, any competent holo will never overheat unless they choose to), it could make the spec actually risky to play. That would be a real drawback. Maybe PF skills could add some % more heat than they currently do.

I'd rather see something like Photon Forge requiring a 10s cooldown to before you have the option to exit.

The main problem with holosmith aside from its overloaded self healing and resustain for 0 stat investment is how spammy it is, photon forge especially. Photon forge is technically a trade off since you lose the elite toolbelt, as hilariously minor as that loss truly is.

The overheat mechanic is supposed to be the inhibitor to counter how spammy Photon Forge can be and how crazy high the skills on it are tuned. Right now heat as an inhibitor is basically a dead mechanic. With a 5 second timer to exit you're always able to leave and never forced to consider holding back on certain skills because of your heat threshold.

The current CD is 6seconds btw (5 1/4 is due to tools). And playing holo I always consider holding back on skills to not hit the threshold. It is not a dead mechanic, it works as intended. What could be talked about is CD of skills (leap could do with 3 or 4 seconds) and why entering and leaving PF count as TB skills for all traits. Other than that holo just needs some number shaving e.g on heat therapy heal and corona burst's might + vuln application (also damage, and maybe even the traited barrier..., idk, stab is more than fine now but that single skill puts out too much pressure).

10sec is harsh when you assume people actually use (or even "spam") the PF skills. That'd be 20 heat from passive (30 with LDA), 25 from shockwave, 16 from blitz, 10 from corona, 7 from leap and 6 per auto chain. Assuming two auto chains that's already 90%(100%!) but then you don't get to do anything anymore other than that for the rest of the time (the rotation through all the abilities +autos is done in about 6-7sec without quickness, which coincidentally comes close to the current CD). Yes, you can lose heat with exhaust but that depletes another resource, can be prevented (cc) or slowed (weakness). And If you're chilled that'd be up to about 16seconds to exit forge while you can't exit it without damaging yourself. Compare that to weapon sets that can still attack, use skills with <10sec CD again and can be kept active longer if needed without any downsides.

Without feat support a full heat cool down from 100% takes about 15 seconds. With vent exhaust a dodge shaves off 1,5sec of that, more only if you don't give it time / you haven't generated enough heat (which basically means you spent a considerable part of PF time not using its skills) to reach the faster cooling. If you dodge whenever you can and have perma vigor (~1 dodge / secs) that heat cooling period will be about 12 seconds. Which is still a bit more than normal weapons and results in the holo not being able to make proper use of the low CD of some PF abilities.

What I'm trying to say is: there's a lot less wiggle room for heat and more down time & holding back involved in heat management than some think. To be flexible with entering PF sooner again you have to hold back on your big hitters (#5, #4) and heat generators or burn dodges for vent exhaust even when you'd rather keep the endurance for enemy attacks, or hold back with all skills in PF in general for periods of time. A holo that generated a lot if heat, left PF and reenters it too soon will NOT be able to make full use of it. Chill's a pain for holos almost as much as it is for eles (and can pretty much kill it indirectly) and weakness / cc cripples vent exhaust. Entering PF at 40-50% heat left and getting cc'd or chilled might mess up the heat management and prevent the holo from using shockwave for example. Or leave him running around for a few secs not even being able to auto attack because that'd cause overheat.

[Solo.6873]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.I disagree but that doesnt really matter.

So in the UGO core tournament. The final round was completely devoid of core mes. So in a competition of core v core, Engi is was a pick. So it can't be that far in the gutter.

[Crab Fear.1624]

The damage-defense-mobility on this specialization is the least balanced.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Silinsar.6298 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"coro.3176" said:If Holo gave up

all

its toolbelt skills, that would be a serious tradeoff, and would be more in line with the power increase PF currently adds on top of core engi.

Alternatively, if heat was actually difficult to manage (currently, any competent holo will never overheat unless they choose to), it could make the spec actually risky to play. That would be a real drawback. Maybe PF skills could add some % more heat than they currently do.

I'd rather see something like Photon Forge requiring a 10s cooldown to before you have the option to exit.

The main problem with holosmith aside from its overloaded self healing and resustain for 0 stat investment is how spammy it is, photon forge especially. Photon forge is technically a trade off since you lose the elite toolbelt, as hilariously minor as that loss truly is.

The overheat mechanic is supposed to be the inhibitor to counter how spammy Photon Forge can be and how crazy high the skills on it are tuned. Right now heat as an inhibitor is basically a dead mechanic. With a 5 second timer to exit you're always able to leave and never forced to consider holding back on certain skills because of your heat threshold.

The current CD is 6seconds btw (5 1/4 is due to tools). And playing holo I always consider holding back on skills to not hit the threshold. It is not a dead mechanic, it works as intended. What could be talked about is CD of skills (leap could do with 3 or 4 seconds) and why entering

and

leaving PF count as TB skills for all traits. Other than that holo just needs some number shaving e.g on heat therapy heal and corona burst's might + vuln application (also damage, and maybe even the traited barrier..., idk, stab is more than fine now but that single skill puts out too much pressure).

10sec is harsh when you assume people actually use (or even "spam") the PF skills. That'd be 20 heat from passive (30 with LDA), 25 from shockwave, 16 from blitz, 10 from corona, 7 from leap and 6 per auto chain. Assuming two auto chains that's already 90%(100%!) but then you don't get to do anything anymore other than that for the rest of the time (the rotation through all the abilities +autos is done in about 6-7sec without quickness, which coincidentally comes close to the current CD). Yes, you can lose heat with exhaust but that depletes another resource, can be prevented (cc) or slowed (weakness). And If you're chilled that'd be up to about 16seconds to exit forge while you can't exit it without damaging yourself. Compare that to weapon sets that can still attack, use skills with <10sec CD again and can be kept active longer if needed without any downsides.

Without feat support a full heat cool down from 100% takes about 15 seconds. With vent exhaust a dodge shaves off 1,5sec of that, more only if you don't give it time / you haven't generated enough heat (which basically means you spent a considerable part of PF time not using its skills) to reach the faster cooling. If you dodge whenever you can and have perma vigor (~1 dodge / secs) that heat cooling period will be about 12 seconds. Which is still a bit more than normal weapons and results in the holo not being able to make proper use of the low CD of some PF abilities.

What I'm trying to say is: there's a lot less wiggle room for heat and more down time & holding back involved in heat management than some think. To be flexible with entering PF sooner again you have to hold back on your big hitters (#5, #4) and heat generators or burn dodges for vent exhaust even when you'd rather keep the endurance for enemy attacks, or hold back with all skills in PF in general for periods of time. A holo that generated a lot if heat, left PF and reenters it too soon will NOT be able to make full use of it. Chill's a pain for holos almost as much as it is for eles (and can pretty much kill it indirectly) and weakness / cc cripples vent exhaust. Entering PF at 40-50% heat left and getting cc'd or chilled might mess up the heat management and prevent the holo from using shockwave for example. Or leave him running around for a few secs not even being able to auto attack because that'd cause overheat.

To put this into perspective, in the two years since Path of Fire and the 2k+ ranked and unranked matches I have played with holos represented in nearly 100% of them I have never, not even once, ever seen a holosmith over heat in a conquest match. This incudes the couple dozen unranked matches where I have played holosmith and avoided overheating despite literally no experience with the specialization.

Heat is not even remotely a punishing mechanic.

[praqtos.9035]

@Solori.6025 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.I disagree but that doesnt really matter.

So in the UGO core tournament. The final round was completely devoid of core mes. So in a competition of core v core, Engi is was a pick. So it can't be that far in the gutter.Yea, it's just a class main trying his hardest to downplay the viability of his main to avoid the nerf.Cause everyone knows how bad the nerfs for mes are and they are trying REALLY hard to avoid getting eviscerated like we did.Trevor is doing it for SLB too

[praqtos.9035]

@mortrialus.3062 said:To put this into perspective, in the two years since Path of Fire and the 2k+ ranked and unranked matches I have played with holos represented in nearly 100% of them I have never, not even once, ever seen a holosmith over heat in a conquest match. This incudes the couple dozen unranked matches where I have played holosmith and avoided overheating despite literally no experience with the specialization.

Heat is not even remotely a punishing mechanic.

Havent you noticed how Vargrant trying to sell it as being super dangerous for holo?As I mentioned before, it has greater risk with overheatingIn reality they have minimal risk to overheat with perma vigor/enchanced endurance gain/heat drop(and heal) on evade = makes it too trivial to maintain even for an unexperienced user.Invul elixir can forcefully stop your forge, even if you cant deactivate it.Cooldown on the forge/exiting forge is too low. Its one of the reasons why holo literally pooping boons out of nowhere, its 5s conversion of 1-2 condis into boons. Alchemy minor trait is even better than utlity slot on 10s less cooldown, who else get tons of boons because he lost health on ridiculously low cd?

[Silinsar.6298]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Silinsar.6298 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"coro.3176" said:If Holo gave up

all

its toolbelt skills, that would be a serious tradeoff, and would be more in line with the power increase PF currently adds on top of core engi.

Alternatively, if heat was actually difficult to manage (currently, any competent holo will never overheat unless they choose to), it could make the spec actually risky to play. That would be a real drawback. Maybe PF skills could add some % more heat than they currently do.

I'd rather see something like Photon Forge requiring a 10s cooldown to before you have the option to exit.

The main problem with holosmith aside from its overloaded self healing and resustain for 0 stat investment is how spammy it is, photon forge especially. Photon forge is technically a trade off since you lose the elite toolbelt, as hilariously minor as that loss truly is.

The overheat mechanic is supposed to be the inhibitor to counter how spammy Photon Forge can be and how crazy high the skills on it are tuned. Right now heat as an inhibitor is basically a dead mechanic. With a 5 second timer to exit you're always able to leave and never forced to consider holding back on certain skills because of your heat threshold.

The current CD is 6seconds btw (5 1/4 is due to tools). And playing holo I always consider holding back on skills to not hit the threshold. It is not a dead mechanic, it works as intended. What could be talked about is CD of skills (leap could do with 3 or 4 seconds) and why entering

and

leaving PF count as TB skills for all traits. Other than that holo just needs some number shaving e.g on heat therapy heal and corona burst's might + vuln application (also damage, and maybe even the traited barrier..., idk, stab is more than fine now but that single skill puts out too much pressure).

10sec is harsh when you assume people actually use (or even "spam") the PF skills. That'd be 20 heat from passive (30 with LDA), 25 from shockwave, 16 from blitz, 10 from corona, 7 from leap and 6 per auto chain. Assuming two auto chains that's already 90%(100%!) but then you don't get to do anything anymore other than that for the rest of the time (the rotation through all the abilities +autos is done in about 6-7sec without quickness, which coincidentally comes close to the current CD). Yes, you can lose heat with exhaust but that depletes another resource, can be prevented (cc) or slowed (weakness). And If you're chilled that'd be up to about 16seconds to exit forge while you can't exit it without damaging yourself. Compare that to weapon sets that can still attack, use skills with <10sec CD again and can be kept active longer if needed without any downsides.

Without feat support a full heat cool down from 100% takes about 15 seconds. With vent exhaust a dodge shaves off 1,5sec of that, more only if you don't give it time / you haven't generated enough heat (which basically means you spent a considerable part of PF time not using its skills) to reach the faster cooling. If you dodge whenever you can and have perma vigor (~1 dodge / secs) that heat cooling period will be about 12 seconds. Which is still a bit more than normal weapons and results in the holo not being able to make proper use of the low CD of some PF abilities.

What I'm trying to say is: there's a lot less wiggle room for heat and more down time & holding back involved in heat management than some think. To be flexible with entering PF sooner again you have to hold back on your big hitters (#5, #4) and heat generators or burn dodges for vent exhaust even when you'd rather keep the endurance for enemy attacks, or hold back with all skills in PF in general for periods of time. A holo that generated a lot if heat, left PF and reenters it too soon will NOT be able to make full use of it. Chill's a pain for holos almost as much as it is for eles (and can pretty much kill it indirectly) and weakness / cc cripples vent exhaust. Entering PF at 40-50% heat left and getting cc'd or chilled might mess up the heat management and prevent the holo from using shockwave for example. Or leave him running around for a few secs not even being able to auto attack because that'd cause overheat.

To put this into perspective, in the two years since Path of Fire and the 2k+ ranked and unranked matches I have played with holos represented in nearly 100% of them I have never, not even once, ever seen a holosmith over heat in a conquest match. This incudes the couple dozen unranked matches where I have played holosmith and avoided overheating despite literally no experience with the specialization.

Heat is not even remotely a punishing mechanic.

It's not necessarily punishing but it is limiting, which is what it is there for. PF isn't meant to make holos overheat by default (only when screwing up / taking the risk), so I don't see the absence of overheating as evidence that the mechanic isn't working as intended. Increasing the CD as you described would mean being forced to stay in PF while not being able to use its skills much more often, which doesn't make sense imo, which is why I argued for different approaches.

[Vagrant.7206]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.I disagree but that doesnt really matter.

So in the UGO core tournament. The final round was completely devoid of core mes. So in a competition of core v core, Engi is was a pick. So it can't be that far in the gutter.Yea, it's just a class main trying his hardest to downplay the viability of his main to avoid the nerf.Cause everyone knows how bad the nerfs for mes are and they are trying REALLY hard to avoid getting eviscerated like we did.Trevor is doing it for SLB too

Nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:To put this into perspective, in the two years since Path of Fire and the 2k+ ranked and unranked matches I have played with holos represented in nearly 100% of them I have never, not even once, ever seen a holosmith over heat in a conquest match. This incudes the couple dozen unranked matches where I have played holosmith and avoided overheating despite literally no experience with the specialization.

Heat is not even remotely a punishing mechanic.

Havent you noticed how Vargrant trying to sell it as being super dangerous for holo?

Apparently you can't read, and just want to put words in my mouth.

"That said, nobody is arguing that what holo has to give up is in any way comparable to what it gains"

@praqtos.9035 said:Alchemy minor trait is even better than utlity slot on 10s less cooldown, who else get tons of boons because he lost health on ridiculously low cd?

I can't believe we've gotten to the point where 37 HP is seen as OP.

[praqtos.9035]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.I disagree but that doesnt really matter.

So in the UGO core tournament. The final round was completely devoid of core mes. So in a competition of core v core, Engi is was a pick. So it can't be that far in the gutter.Yea, it's just a class main trying his hardest to downplay the viability of his main to avoid the nerf.Cause everyone knows how bad the nerfs for mes are and they are trying REALLY hard to avoid getting eviscerated like we did.Trevor is doing it for SLB too

Nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:Thats you moan that engi is in gutter and mesmer is great,yet, not even single mesmer in the core tournament. What evidence ?What I need to prove? That you and other "mains" trying their best to defend their overperforming class from nerfs? The only one holomain who know how busted it is is a @toxic.3648 ,probs because dont have too much time to play

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:To put this into perspective, in the two years since Path of Fire and the 2k+ ranked and unranked matches I have played with holos represented in nearly 100% of them I have never, not even once, ever seen a holosmith over heat in a conquest match. This incudes the couple dozen unranked matches where I have played holosmith and avoided overheating despite literally no experience with the specialization.

Heat is not even remotely a punishing mechanic.

Havent you noticed how Vargrant trying to sell it as being super dangerous for holo?

Apparently you can't read, and just want to put words in my mouth.I quoted you from your own post, may be you cant read ?

@praqtos.9035 said:Alchemy minor trait is even better than utlity slot on 10s less cooldown, who else get tons of boons because he lost health on ridiculously low cd?

I can't believe we've gotten to the point where 37 HP is seen as OP.Yes,you cant read. Obviously I was talking exactly about this trait! /sMay be you want to learn your own class/traits better?

[Vagrant.7206]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.I disagree but that doesnt really matter.

So in the UGO core tournament. The final round was completely devoid of core mes. So in a competition of core v core, Engi is was a pick. So it can't be that far in the gutter.Yea, it's just a class main trying his hardest to downplay the viability of his main to avoid the nerf.Cause everyone knows how bad the nerfs for mes are and they are trying REALLY hard to avoid getting eviscerated like we did.Trevor is doing it for SLB too

Nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:Thats you moan that engi is in gutter and mesmer is great,yet, not even single mesmer in the core tournament. What evidence ?What I need to prove? That you and other "mains" trying their best to defend their overperforming class from nerfs? The only one holomain who know how busted it is is a @"toxic.3648" ,probs because dont have too much time to play

Again, nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:

If you don't understand what I meant when I said that... click here.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:To put this into perspective, in the two years since Path of Fire and the 2k+ ranked and unranked matches I have played with holos represented in nearly 100% of them I have never, not even once, ever seen a holosmith over heat in a conquest match. This incudes the couple dozen unranked matches where I have played holosmith and avoided overheating despite literally no experience with the specialization.

Heat is not even remotely a punishing mechanic.

Havent you noticed how Vargrant trying to sell it as being super dangerous for holo?

Apparently you can't read, and just want to put words in my mouth.I quoted you from your own post, may be you cant read ?

1. You didn't quote me.
2. You didn't read my actual quote.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:Alchemy minor trait is even better than utlity slot on 10s less cooldown, who else get tons of boons because he lost health on ridiculously low cd?

I can't believe we've gotten to the point where 37 HP is seen as OP.Yes,you cant read. Obviously I was talking exactly about this trait! /sMay be you want to learn your own class/traits better?

Maybe you should actually post the trait you're talking about, instead of shouting random complaints into the ether? I honestly get confused about the complaints about engineer's minor traits these days, because they're getting increasingly preposterous.

[Solo.6873]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.I disagree but that doesnt really matter.

So in the UGO core tournament. The final round was completely devoid of core mes. So in a competition of core v core, Engi is was a pick. So it can't be that far in the gutter.Yea, it's just a class main trying his hardest to downplay the viability of his main to avoid the nerf.Cause everyone knows how bad the nerfs for mes are and they are trying REALLY hard to avoid getting eviscerated like we did.Trevor is doing it for SLB too

Nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:Thats you moan that engi is in gutter and mesmer is great,yet, not even single mesmer in the core tournament. What evidence ?What I need to prove? That you and other "mains" trying their best to defend their overperforming class from nerfs? The only one holomain who know how busted it is is a @"toxic.3648" ,probs because dont have too much time to play

Again, nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:

If you don't understand what I meant when I said that...

click here

.

I mean.If one person says a class at a core level is doing fine. But gives no evidence.Vs the counter arguement saying it's not with evidence.Which one would be more credible?And for a singular point of data. People have used literally less while asking for mesmer nerfs. Not excluding hyperbole and personal bias.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:Alchemy minor trait is even better than utlity slot on 10s less cooldown, who else get tons of boons because he lost health on ridiculously low cd?

I can't believe we've gotten to the point where 37 HP is seen as OP.Yes,you cant read. Obviously I was talking exactly about this trait! /sMay be you want to learn your own class/traits better?

Maybe you should actually

post the trait

you're talking about, instead of shouting random complaints into the ether? I honestly get confused about the complaints about engineer's minor traits these days, because they're getting increasingly preposterous.

Like...I don't main engi and I knew what trait he was talking about...I think you're pulling teeth on that one.Is their another minor trait in alchemy that gives 3+ boons with a health loss prerequisite that would confuse you?

[mortrialus.3062]

@Silinsar.6298 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Silinsar.6298 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"coro.3176" said:If Holo gave up

all

its toolbelt skills, that would be a serious tradeoff, and would be more in line with the power increase PF currently adds on top of core engi.

Alternatively, if heat was actually difficult to manage (currently, any competent holo will never overheat unless they choose to), it could make the spec actually risky to play. That would be a real drawback. Maybe PF skills could add some % more heat than they currently do.

I'd rather see something like Photon Forge requiring a 10s cooldown to before you have the option to exit.

The main problem with holosmith aside from its overloaded self healing and resustain for 0 stat investment is how spammy it is, photon forge especially. Photon forge is technically a trade off since you lose the elite toolbelt, as hilariously minor as that loss truly is.

The overheat mechanic is supposed to be the inhibitor to counter how spammy Photon Forge can be and how crazy high the skills on it are tuned. Right now heat as an inhibitor is basically a dead mechanic. With a 5 second timer to exit you're always able to leave and never forced to consider holding back on certain skills because of your heat threshold.

The current CD is 6seconds btw (5 1/4 is due to tools). And playing holo I always consider holding back on skills to not hit the threshold. It is not a dead mechanic, it works as intended. What could be talked about is CD of skills (leap could do with 3 or 4 seconds) and why entering

and

leaving PF count as TB skills for all traits. Other than that holo just needs some number shaving e.g on heat therapy heal and corona burst's might + vuln application (also damage, and maybe even the traited barrier..., idk, stab is more than fine now but that single skill puts out too much pressure).

10sec is harsh when you assume people actually use (or even "spam") the PF skills. That'd be 20 heat from passive (30 with LDA), 25 from shockwave, 16 from blitz, 10 from corona, 7 from leap and 6 per auto chain. Assuming two auto chains that's already 90%(100%!) but then you don't get to do anything anymore other than that for the rest of the time (the rotation through all the abilities +autos is done in about 6-7sec without quickness, which coincidentally comes close to the current CD). Yes, you can lose heat with exhaust but that depletes another resource, can be prevented (cc) or slowed (weakness). And If you're chilled that'd be up to about 16seconds to exit forge while you can't exit it without damaging yourself. Compare that to weapon sets that can still attack, use skills with <10sec CD again and can be kept active longer if needed without any downsides.

Without feat support a full heat cool down from 100% takes about 15 seconds. With vent exhaust a dodge shaves off 1,5sec of that, more only if you don't give it time / you haven't generated enough heat (which basically means you spent a considerable part of PF time not using its skills) to reach the faster cooling. If you dodge whenever you can and have perma vigor (~1 dodge / secs) that heat cooling period will be about 12 seconds. Which is still a bit more than normal weapons and results in the holo not being able to make proper use of the low CD of some PF abilities.

What I'm trying to say is: there's a lot less wiggle room for heat and more down time & holding back involved in heat management than some think. To be flexible with entering PF sooner again you have to hold back on your big hitters (#5, #4) and heat generators or burn dodges for vent exhaust even when you'd rather keep the endurance for enemy attacks, or hold back with all skills in PF in general for periods of time. A holo that generated a lot if heat, left PF and reenters it too soon will NOT be able to make full use of it. Chill's a pain for holos almost as much as it is for eles (and can pretty much kill it indirectly) and weakness / cc cripples vent exhaust. Entering PF at 40-50% heat left and getting cc'd or chilled might mess up the heat management and prevent the holo from using shockwave for example. Or leave him running around for a few secs not even being able to auto attack because that'd cause overheat.

To put this into perspective, in the two years since Path of Fire and the 2k+ ranked and unranked matches I have played with holos represented in nearly 100% of them I have never, not even once, ever seen a holosmith over heat in a conquest match. This incudes the couple dozen unranked matches where I have played holosmith and avoided overheating despite literally no experience with the specialization.

Heat is not even remotely a punishing mechanic.

It's not necessarily punishing but

it is limiting

, which is what it is there for. PF isn't meant to make holos overheat by default (only when screwing up / taking the risk), so I don't see the absence of overheating as evidence that the mechanic isn't working as intended. Increasing the CD as you described would mean being forced to stay in PF while not being able to use its skills much more often, which doesn't make sense imo, which is why I argued for different approaches.

It's actually explicitly there to punish bad, spammy play. If you watch the original Path of Fire trailers, the original developer talks and live streams about the specializations, heat is a mechanic explicitly there to make Holosmith one of the "more challenging professions to play" and make "every skill in photon a serious calculation" as to whether you can afford it or not, and that they were looking forward to how skilled holosmith players would play with this mechanic (A.E.D. and deliberately overheating was explicitly mentioned). It's not there to make every holosmith explode when they use Photon Forge, but it is there to make Photon Forge a high IQ mechanic.

Right now Holosmith is one of the least skilled, most spammy professions in the game. Even players who are known for being really good, like Boyce and Sindrener, on the last TeaTime both agreed even if Holosmith's design might be more fair than say Scourge, Deadeye, and Mirage, it's also significantly more thoughtlessly spammy.

[MrForz.1953]

"Engie mains" defending Holosmith... Yeah right. I dread that thing, it's not what I signed up for, I won't miss it if it gets buried six feet under until the concept becomes interesting. Nothing cool or cheeky to make, no plans so stupid they might work, just plain reliable offense and defense in cleave.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.I disagree but that doesnt really matter.

So in the UGO core tournament. The final round was completely devoid of core mes. So in a competition of core v core, Engi is was a pick. So it can't be that far in the gutter.Yea, it's just a class main trying his hardest to downplay the viability of his main to avoid the nerf.Cause everyone knows how bad the nerfs for mes are and they are trying REALLY hard to avoid getting eviscerated like we did.Trevor is doing it for SLB too

Nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:Thats you moan that engi is in gutter and mesmer is great,yet, not even single mesmer in the core tournament. What evidence ?What I need to prove? That you and other "mains" trying their best to defend their overperforming class from nerfs? The only one holomain who know how busted it is is a @"toxic.3648" ,probs because dont have too much time to play

Again, nothing like a single data point as evidence. :smile:

If you don't understand what I meant when I said that...

click here

.

I mean.If one person says a class at a core level is doing fine. But gives no evidence.Vs the counter arguement saying it's not with evidence.Which one would be more credible?And for a singular point of data. People have used literally less while asking for mesmer nerfs. Not excluding hyperbole and personal bias.

Anecdote =/= Evidence

We would need some larger datasets to be able to reasonably say one statement is "true."

• In your experience, you believe core mesmer is in the gutter. I don't believe that. I think it's obscured by mirage and chrono clearly being better picks.
• In my experience, I believe core engi is in the gutter. You don't believe that. I presume that's because of holosmith's success and scrapper's recent boost.
• You posted a single instance where engi was picked over mesmer. That's an anecdote.

Know what would resolve this conundrum? Data from ANet on core class success rates in real matches, skill level of those matches, and how often they're used.

@"MrForz.1953" said:"Engie mains" defending Holosmith... Yeah right. I dread that thing, it's not what I signed up for, I won't miss it if it gets buried six feet under until the concept becomes interesting. Nothing cool or cheeky to make, no plans so stupid they might work, just plain reliable offense and defense in cleave.

Yeah, but scrapper is boring AF to play. Unless you're running a healing build.

[mortrialus.3062]

Here are some changes that should really happen to Engineer. Some general goals:

Maintain Holosmith's flavor as a higher risk, higher reward alternative to engineer and scrapper. Trim aspects of holosmith and core engineer that significantly over powered compared to other skills and traits:

Photon ForgePhoton Forge and heat need to be adjusted to make Photon Forge a more skill intensive, less spammy mechanic. Whether it's increasing the cooldown on Exit Photon Forge, adjusting the heat gain on the skills. I personally would like to see Exit Photon Forge be bumped up to 10 seconds baseline.

Heat TherapyHeat Therapy Stacks should be capped at 5. Now that Berserker has crossed that threshold, Photon Forge should have a drawback built into one of the minor traits. Something akin to -300 healing power while in Photon Forge, similar to the Berserk Mode Toughness penalty.

Toss Elixir SNeeds to be nerfed from 5 seconds base 6 seconds traited down to 2s base 2.4s traited. 5 seconds base has always been outrageously out of line for a utility skill, let alone a toolbelt skill. 2 seconds is actually very generous, putting it on par with dedicated stealth utilities despite only being a Toolbelt skill.

Overcharge ShotOvercharge shot needs an animation and a wind up similar to Warrior Longbow's Pin down. A clear tell alerting players that they're about to be CC'd. If a holo rushes you in melee range, Corona Bursts, then drops Photon Forge and immediately Overcharge shots there you are dealing with what is functionally an instant cast blow out skill. And let's be real, while at range Overcharge shot does have a projectile you can see coming. But the skill itself is instant cast and thus in melee or near melee range it is practically an instant cast blow out.

Healing Turret50% nerf on the base healing and regeneration duration, 50% increase in the water field duration. Healing Turret has always been very overtuned for a healing skill, significantly overperforming most heals by a significant degree before you even start accounting for how much value the field itself applies. Healing Turret initial healing per second should be brought down to be more inline with similar healing skills and the field duration should be increased so that skilled and thoughtful engineers aware of their ability to combo in fields can still get more value out of it.

Anticorrosion PlatingIs seriously out of line, making holosmiths and scrappers that take Alchemy and Inventions functionally hard immune to condition damage as an archetype. It deserves a 5 second internal cooldown. Probably higher.

Prime Light BeamCasting Prime Light beam should also put revealed on the Holosmith, similar to Deadeyes and Death's Judgement. It's especially unfair considering it isn't a projectile and thus has no travel time, and it's an unblockable very high damage blowout.

Drastic Cool down increase on Elixir XHopefully Arenanet have been brainstorming what to do about the Rampage Elite on Warriors and Engineers because it's absolutely out of control right now. Frankly Rampage and Elixir X deserve to be pushed up to 180s cooldowns for how impactful they are.

There's probably a few more but these are the easy and obvious changes. I think this list is eminently reasonable and should be uncontroversial.

[Euthymias.7984]

I dont understand all of these ridiculous ideas on longer lockouts and other things when the solutions are much more simple.Is Holo-mode too "spammy"? Raise the amount of heat generated from Photon Skills slightly and slightly weaken Vent Exhaust by like 5% (15% reduced to 10%) heat removed when dodging (note that it would also have an effect on the heal gained from heat removal).Is there too much "passive" healing? Lower the stacks of Heat Therapy from 10 to 5 max.There's no need to complicate things or make the kit extra clunky for the sake of a nerf when value shaving would be enough if its really needed.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"Euthymias.7984" said:I dont understand all of these ridiculous ideas on longer lockouts and other things when the solutions are much more simple.Is Holo-mode too "spammy"? Raise the amount of heat generated from Photon Skills slightly and slightly weaken Vent Exhaust by like 5% (15% reduced to 10%) heat removed when dodging (note that it would also have an effect on the heal gained from heat removal).Is there too much "passive" healing? Lower the stacks of Heat Therapy from 10 to 5 max.There's no need to complicate things or make the kit extra clunky for the sake of a nerf when value shaving would be enough if its really needed.

Cooldown increases are easy shaves, lol.