With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

[rng.1024]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@rng.1024 said:I think you are right, especially given the elite uses 690,5 as weapon strength. I know for a fact is sidesteppable, however the time to do so is minimal and I doubt you can while staying close. I always create a gap as they enter forge to avoid the #4 projectiles or get crippled by the #2, see them charge their elite, then turn my character 90° and press W just as it fires to get out. Could be a movement speed thing as using Q or E to strafe is slower, I'm actually not sure.Its not, unless you can record and reproduce (I think it doesnt matter at this point, if u can make it once in 100 attempts)You have to remember the stealth doesn't regenerate the holo in any way, if you can force the heal turret beforehand they only got Heat Therapy. The resustain is an illusion caused by the low healthpool, as any heal cause alot more recovery of total health since the total is so low. The heal is on a 20 second cooldown to boot, which is a long time to do your burst inbetween. If you interrupt or destroy the turret before they can combo (or even apply poison) then you have a massive advantage.So heal from just the turret for around ~12k + out of 16k ? Your "oh its 20 seconds cd" doesnt make it look any better, its not long time since he can heal in between from therapy and vent exhaust.They reworked heal-cleanses to remove conditions first before heal , good luck I guess?He will blast the turret himself way before you can destroy it, its not 2k health like the mesmer clonesIn my experience most holosmiths are of the type "jump in and hit all buttons, leap out and heal" meaning if you mitigate their initial burst they will want to save their heal until next they enter forge, so it's best to pressure them here getting them low and make them spend it, then burst next when they forge and don't have it available.PF is too spammy, most of this skill are must to dodge and PF is not the only thign you want to dodge.I agree with KrHome that forge should have higher cooldowns on every skill.Why don't you think holo stealth is fine though? You don't provide cap contribution under it, it has a cast time, and you get revealed when attacking. We have reveal skills available, it needs to be properly thrown to hit and is on a higher cooldown than most utility skills even while traited.Its not just holo stealth,its not fine in general, the only 6s stealth duration now is on mesmer elite, pulsing stealth as scrapper gyro elite and engi gets 6s aoe stealth on 32s cd on the toolbelt(I know its duration reduced by the trait). Other stealth skills are 2-3 seconds with 30-40 seconds cooldown on them. Engi is 5s, 40s cd AoE(6s long,32s recharge traited). That is not fine. It must be either shaved to 3s or given way higher cooldown.

I can give it a go tonight no problem. How you get a 12k heal? Last I checked turret+overcharge net you barely 5k and a 3 sec water field with 1 blast, so unless you can spam 4 leaps in there you won't come near 12k. Your best bet is around 8k which is on par with alot of other skills of the same cd, unless you play something off-meta with healingpower.@"toxic.3648" posted so many time about it even with screenshots, he confirmed thats you can do with meta rifle build.As for poison I'm going to keep it short:

• Fields
• Cover conditions
• After cleansing burst
• When heal skill on cdWhy wont we live in a perfect world where you can interrupt his heal/destroy his turret and vomit so many conditions so he cant cleanse ... or passive conversion...What other stealth skills? Come with examples and we can compare. Again I want to remind you it's 45 seconds untraited, has a cast time (unavailable if cc'ed), can be negated before it even hits and must be used on top of the engi for him to also get the benefit - that is alot of counterplay already and you want more? Even a longbow ranger has 45% more stealth from 1 skill in the same timeframe with only hunter's shot.Ye suddenly I confused it with another elixir, not much difference tho :PTo "negate" it you must create huge projectile destruction AoE around engineer. Its hits the ground close to instant so ye, good luck having inhuman reflexes and reaction and having instant AOE projectile denial around engi.Suddenly using elixir on top of himself is a huge downside? How cute.Except ranger wont get stealth if you dont hit anything or you give stealth to someone else if its reflected ( shocking info: its way easier to reflect incoming projectile than creating projectile destruction AoE's around engineer)I wouldnt care less if stealth would be 2-3 seconds at best. Compared to other utilities that gives AoE stealth for allies, this one is completely busted. Shadow refuge is 60 seconds cooldown,once you leave the area you are revealed. To get veil stealth,72 seconds cooldown, for two seconds at least you have to cross the line. They have MASSIVELY longer cooldown, both of them have a cast time, both of them have way more counter play than thow elixir, thats excuse "it must be on top of the engineer to get stealth" seems to be a joke compared to them(elixir that hitting the ground close to instant, lol)Stealths skills you can find here
  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth
  . If you are interested of courseWe cannot just willy nilly compare skills with a recharge reduction trait to skills without, then naturally 1 seems out of balance - which is the entire incentive to pick those traits. If your issue is those traits then that's an entirely different discussion from balancing holosmith.You are wrong, these traits not what is my issue :)

It creates no combo field and can simply be bodyblocked, no need for any projectile denial whatsoever. But I still don't get why it's so wong he gets a few seconds stealth every now and then, either it's offensive and he will reveal himself or it's defensive allowing a quick escape. Since when was this overpowered? It's literally been like that forever.

Same goes for their heal, so they can blast it a little more and all of a sudden it's op?

As far as I can tell your issue is with holosmith sustain as a bruiser compared to the damage they can put out utilizing might. Which they sacrifice an amulet for. A rune aswell. And 2 traitlines. Again I totally get your frustration if you are trying to 1v1 it, but it's just the name of the game and holosmith is not alone in it's sidenoding capacity, meaning you need a +1 to take it down most of the time.

It's not like you don't have options, you can play a bruiser yourself, convert that might, range it, rotate away or kite.

Let's say we increased heal turret's cd to 30 seconds and the elixir to 60 seconds. Would that fix all your issues? No, they would still be able to use those at their leisure and someone good at kiting would do just as well with the increase. A better solution would be to hit the might generation via traits first, and then take a look at protection uptime, because it would reward good skill rotations instead of outright push holosmith out of meta.

[Pengu.7481]

@rng.1024 said:It creates no combo field and can simply be bodyblocked, no need for any projectile denial whatsoever. But I still don't get why it's so wong he gets a few seconds stealth every now and then, either it's offensive and he will reveal himself or it's defensive allowing a quick escape. Since when was this overpowered? It's literally been like that forever.well to be fair the stealth from toss elixir S is a wee bit much considering its aoe 6 sec (toolbelt skills are supposed to be weaker than utility yet i dont know any stealth utility on par with this except for mesmer elite or scrapper elite) no idea what u mean by bodyblock. ur teammate supposed to block the elixir? cuz enemies dont do that (just tested to be sure)the duration should be cut to 3 sec / 4 sec traitedSame goes for their heal, so they can blast it a little more and all of a sudden it's op?well the thing with healing is that u apply counterpressure while healing, also good luck interrupting holo in photon forge when he wanna heal, most likely stab is up from either holo 3 or elixir U. then again most heals ingame can be interrupted so this is not only a holo problem. or kite away(use that 6 sec stealth of ours) to heal up not to mention the heat therapy/vigor synergy/vent exhaustAs far as I can tell your issue is with holosmith sustain as a bruiser compared to the damage they can put out utilizing might. Which they sacrifice an amulet for. A rune aswell. And 2 traitlines. Again I totally get your frustration if you are trying to 1v1 it, but it's just the name of the game and holosmith is not alone in it's sidenoding capacity, meaning you need a +1 to take it down most of the time.what amulet/rune are we sacrificing exactly? demolsiher is pretty much as meta as it gets and boon duration runes are just playing to holo's strenghts since we rely on boons big time and shit them out like we got diarhea besides we dont rly need dmg oriented runes to deal good dmg. heck what traitlines are we sacrificing? alchemy for boons/sustain, tools for utility/10% dmg buff and perma vigor/holo for dmg and heals + utility in form of cleanse and stab. i see no sacrifice other than we are building little for dmg yet have a shitton of it. even utilities are all active defenses / elixir u quickness for offense. i agree the might stacking need to be cut down, mainly minor elixir B is a bit much with HGH. purity of purpose is normally used for prot holo's and ironblodded havent been used since we ran exceed/sd holoIt's not like you don't have options, you can play a bruiser yourself, convert that might, range it, rotate away or kite.ye we can play either spb/soulbeast/necro to counter holo. gl on all the other classes thoLet's say we increased heal turret's cd to 30 seconds and the elixir to 60 seconds. Would that fix all your issues? No, they would still be able to use those at their leisure and someone good at kiting would do just as well with the increase. A better solution would be to hit the might generation via traits first, and then take a look at protection uptime, because it would reward good skill rotations instead of outright push holosmith out of meta.remove regen from healing turret, cut the 10 stacks heat therapy and make 5 baseline/cut down on the vigor/increase holo 2 cd and remove holo 5 100% crit and reduce range. ofc in conjuction with other overperforming specs so we're bringing the powercreep down a notch. no need to scepter 3 nerf it

[Vagrant.7206]

@toxic.3648 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:Highest number I've gotten for healing turret is 9k, maybe 10k (depending - I sometimes play prot holo, which gets an extra chunk of healing power). This does assume, though, that the holo is using the blast + a leap....though I don't find this to be a too unlikely scenario, considering forge#2 exists and rifle#5 can be used after to kite, but take that how you will. Also, most people will include the regen given by HT - imo, primarily because holo actually have enough survivability that the regen actually means something, and becomes not-insignificant because it'll end up stacked with heat therapy and whatever small healing the holo gets from Alchemy. Whereas, say, on a squishier class the value of regen rounds down to zero because the sustain setup is entirely different/won't be in combat long enough for it to make a difference/etc.

The closest point of comparison I've found is DE's Malicious Restoration, which is on a 30 second CD , heals for ~7.2k, and transfers 3 conditions (versus HT's cleanse). I haven't seen anyone ever use Malicious Restoration.

Anyway. Is Healing Turret OP? Maybe...maybe not. It's easy to mistake HT as the issue, imo, which is totally understandable considering what holosmith brings to the table. But HT has been there for ages and hasn't really been a problem (maybe it deserves a minor shave, maybe water fields could use a buff, but I digress).

I still maintain the issue is with heat therapy. Scrapper just got its Rapid Regeneration massacred with a 40%(?) decrease. Used to be around 660 HPS.Warr's healing signet has been repeatedly nerfed. Holosmith essentially has new Rapid regen or signet as an auto-acquire trait with the potential to get double the value (I went from ~300 health per tick to ~600 per tick if I let it drain a little longer).

See what can be done about heat therapy first, THEN see if HT remains an issue. Ofc I'm all for the removal of HT, but I'm probably biased - someone out there suggested they prevent Heat Therapy from stacking as high (capping it at 5 stacks or something, idk). That sounds like a good place to start.

But these massive healing numbers people are attributing to healing turret are utterly ridiculous.

@rng.1024 said:How you get a 12k heal? Last I checked turret+overcharge net you barely 5k and a 3 sec water field with 1 blast, so unless you can spam 4 leaps in there you won't come near 12k. Your best bet is around 8k which is on par with alot of other skills of the same cd, unless you play something off-meta with healingpower.

--- snipHT + blast turret, rifle 5/holo 5 + holo leap - HT toolbelt + holo leap . i waited out the regen and thats the number u end up with. havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy and 370 healing tops from compounding chemicals. this is done on elixir build demo amulet / herald runes (no offmeta healing build like u guys suggest)srsly if u guys are playing holo this isnt news to uso pls stop acting like this isnt a thing

sure u can make the argument that holo5/rifle 5 isnt always available for a healing combo but lets be honest here. 1500 less heal dosnt rly matter at this point

So to clear things up, you're saying...

Regen is OP?Water field is OP?Which is it?

Because most of your heals are not coming from the turret itself. They're coming from combos. The screenshots you posted are about 6-7 seconds worth of casting time plus full heat expended on healing without interruption. Hell, why don't you throw in mortar kit's water field if you feel like it too. Or Elixir Gun #5. Why stop there?

Without any context or combat, anything can look OP.

---

FYI, Engineer is the class that is supposed to have the most interaction with combo fields. It's part of our design. You can pull similar kinds of heals with core engi if you know what you're doing. Doesn't mean you're playing effectively, mind you.

[Nilkemia.8507]

This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@toxic.3648 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:Highest number I've gotten for healing turret is 9k, maybe 10k (depending - I sometimes play prot holo, which gets an extra chunk of healing power). This does assume, though, that the holo is using the blast + a leap....though I don't find this to be a too unlikely scenario, considering forge#2 exists and rifle#5 can be used after to kite, but take that how you will. Also, most people will include the regen given by HT - imo, primarily because holo actually have enough survivability that the regen actually means something, and becomes not-insignificant because it'll end up stacked with heat therapy and whatever small healing the holo gets from Alchemy. Whereas, say, on a squishier class the value of regen rounds down to zero because the sustain setup is entirely different/won't be in combat long enough for it to make a difference/etc.

The closest point of comparison I've found is DE's Malicious Restoration, which is on a 30 second CD , heals for ~7.2k, and transfers 3 conditions (versus HT's cleanse). I haven't seen anyone ever use Malicious Restoration.

Anyway. Is Healing Turret OP? Maybe...maybe not. It's easy to mistake HT as the issue, imo, which is totally understandable considering what holosmith brings to the table. But HT has been there for ages and hasn't really been a problem (maybe it deserves a minor shave, maybe water fields could use a buff, but I digress).

I still maintain the issue is with heat therapy. Scrapper just got its Rapid Regeneration massacred with a 40%(?) decrease. Used to be around 660 HPS.Warr's healing signet has been repeatedly nerfed. Holosmith essentially has new Rapid regen or signet as an auto-acquire trait with the potential to get double the value (I went from ~300 health per tick to ~600 per tick if I let it drain a little longer).

See what can be done about heat therapy first, THEN see if HT remains an issue. Ofc I'm all for the removal of HT, but I'm probably biased - someone out there suggested they prevent Heat Therapy from stacking as high (capping it at 5 stacks or something, idk). That sounds like a good place to start.

But these massive healing numbers people are attributing to healing turret are utterly ridiculous.

@rng.1024 said:How you get a 12k heal? Last I checked turret+overcharge net you barely 5k and a 3 sec water field with 1 blast, so unless you can spam 4 leaps in there you won't come near 12k. Your best bet is around 8k which is on par with alot of other skills of the same cd, unless you play something off-meta with healingpower.

--- snipHT + blast turret, rifle 5/holo 5 + holo leap - HT toolbelt + holo leap . i waited out the regen and thats the number u end up with. havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy and 370 healing tops from compounding chemicals. this is done on elixir build demo amulet / herald runes (no offmeta healing build like u guys suggest)srsly if u guys are playing holo this isnt news to uso pls stop acting like this isnt a thing

sure u can make the argument that holo5/rifle 5 isnt always available for a healing combo but lets be honest here. 1500 less heal dosnt rly matter at this point

So to clear things up, you're saying...

Regen is OP?Water field is OP?Which is it?

Because most of your heals are not coming from the turret itself. They're coming from combos.

None of it individually but the heal turret when you look at the complete package it's over stuffed and always had been.

Compounding Chemicals also derserves a heavy nerf. Its a ridiculous amount of healing with holo and scrappers insane level of boon application. Heat therapy shouldn't exist in this form. Holo by design should not be provided sustaining healing, just from a philosophical perspective.

[Vagrant.7206]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@toxic.3648 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:Highest number I've gotten for healing turret is 9k, maybe 10k (depending - I sometimes play prot holo, which gets an extra chunk of healing power). This does assume, though, that the holo is using the blast + a leap....though I don't find this to be a too unlikely scenario, considering forge#2 exists and rifle#5 can be used after to kite, but take that how you will. Also, most people will include the regen given by HT - imo, primarily because holo actually have enough survivability that the regen actually means something, and becomes not-insignificant because it'll end up stacked with heat therapy and whatever small healing the holo gets from Alchemy. Whereas, say, on a squishier class the value of regen rounds down to zero because the sustain setup is entirely different/won't be in combat long enough for it to make a difference/etc.

The closest point of comparison I've found is DE's Malicious Restoration, which is on a 30 second CD , heals for ~7.2k, and transfers 3 conditions (versus HT's cleanse). I haven't seen anyone ever use Malicious Restoration.

Anyway. Is Healing Turret OP? Maybe...maybe not. It's easy to mistake HT as the issue, imo, which is totally understandable considering what holosmith brings to the table. But HT has been there for ages and hasn't really been a problem (maybe it deserves a minor shave, maybe water fields could use a buff, but I digress).

I still maintain the issue is with heat therapy. Scrapper just got its Rapid Regeneration massacred with a 40%(?) decrease. Used to be around 660 HPS.Warr's healing signet has been repeatedly nerfed. Holosmith essentially has new Rapid regen or signet as an auto-acquire trait with the potential to get double the value (I went from ~300 health per tick to ~600 per tick if I let it drain a little longer).

See what can be done about heat therapy first, THEN see if HT remains an issue. Ofc I'm all for the removal of HT, but I'm probably biased - someone out there suggested they prevent Heat Therapy from stacking as high (capping it at 5 stacks or something, idk). That sounds like a good place to start.

But these massive healing numbers people are attributing to healing turret are utterly ridiculous.

@"rng.1024" said:How you get a 12k heal? Last I checked turret+overcharge net you barely 5k and a 3 sec water field with 1 blast, so unless you can spam 4 leaps in there you won't come near 12k. Your best bet is around 8k which is on par with alot of other skills of the same cd, unless you play something off-meta with healingpower.

--- snipHT + blast turret, rifle 5/holo 5 + holo leap - HT toolbelt + holo leap . i waited out the regen and thats the number u end up with. havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy and 370 healing tops from compounding chemicals. this is done on elixir build demo amulet / herald runes (no offmeta healing build like u guys suggest)srsly if u guys are playing holo this isnt news to uso pls stop acting like this isnt a thing

sure u can make the argument that holo5/rifle 5 isnt always available for a healing combo but lets be honest here. 1500 less heal dosnt rly matter at this point

So to clear things up, you're saying...

Regen is OP?Water field is OP?Which is it?

Because most of your heals are not coming from the turret itself. They're coming from combos.

None of it individually but the heal turret when you look at the complete package it's over stuffed and always had been.

Compounding Chemicals also derserves a heavy nerf. Its a ridiculous amount of healing with holo and scrappers insane level of boon application. Heat therapy shouldn't exist in this form. Holo by design should not exist in it's current form.

You mean this trait? Sure, give me its older version instead. :smile: Also, if we're complaining about 40-80 health on cleanse... I feel like we're really getting into the weeds.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@toxic.3648 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:Highest number I've gotten for healing turret is 9k, maybe 10k (depending - I sometimes play prot holo, which gets an extra chunk of healing power). This does assume, though, that the holo is using the blast + a leap....though I don't find this to be a too unlikely scenario, considering forge#2 exists and rifle#5 can be used after to kite, but take that how you will. Also, most people will include the regen given by HT - imo, primarily because holo actually have enough survivability that the regen actually means something, and becomes not-insignificant because it'll end up stacked with heat therapy and whatever small healing the holo gets from Alchemy. Whereas, say, on a squishier class the value of regen rounds down to zero because the sustain setup is entirely different/won't be in combat long enough for it to make a difference/etc.

The closest point of comparison I've found is DE's Malicious Restoration, which is on a 30 second CD , heals for ~7.2k, and transfers 3 conditions (versus HT's cleanse). I haven't seen anyone ever use Malicious Restoration.

Anyway. Is Healing Turret OP? Maybe...maybe not. It's easy to mistake HT as the issue, imo, which is totally understandable considering what holosmith brings to the table. But HT has been there for ages and hasn't really been a problem (maybe it deserves a minor shave, maybe water fields could use a buff, but I digress).

I still maintain the issue is with heat therapy. Scrapper just got its Rapid Regeneration massacred with a 40%(?) decrease. Used to be around 660 HPS.Warr's healing signet has been repeatedly nerfed. Holosmith essentially has new Rapid regen or signet as an auto-acquire trait with the potential to get double the value (I went from ~300 health per tick to ~600 per tick if I let it drain a little longer).

See what can be done about heat therapy first, THEN see if HT remains an issue. Ofc I'm all for the removal of HT, but I'm probably biased - someone out there suggested they prevent Heat Therapy from stacking as high (capping it at 5 stacks or something, idk). That sounds like a good place to start.

But these massive healing numbers people are attributing to healing turret are utterly ridiculous.

@"rng.1024" said:How you get a 12k heal? Last I checked turret+overcharge net you barely 5k and a 3 sec water field with 1 blast, so unless you can spam 4 leaps in there you won't come near 12k. Your best bet is around 8k which is on par with alot of other skills of the same cd, unless you play something off-meta with healingpower.

--- snipHT + blast turret, rifle 5/holo 5 + holo leap - HT toolbelt + holo leap . i waited out the regen and thats the number u end up with. havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy and 370 healing tops from compounding chemicals. this is done on elixir build demo amulet / herald runes (no offmeta healing build like u guys suggest)srsly if u guys are playing holo this isnt news to uso pls stop acting like this isnt a thing

sure u can make the argument that holo5/rifle 5 isnt always available for a healing combo but lets be honest here. 1500 less heal dosnt rly matter at this point

So to clear things up, you're saying...

Regen is OP?Water field is OP?Which is it?

Because most of your heals are not coming from the turret itself. They're coming from combos.

None of it individually but the heal turret when you look at the complete package it's over stuffed and always had been.

Compounding Chemicals also derserves a heavy nerf. Its a ridiculous amount of healing with holo and scrappers insane level of boon application. Heat therapy shouldn't exist in this form. Holo by design should not exist in it's current form.

You mean this

trait

? Sure, give me its

older version

instead. :smile: Also, if we're complaining about 40-80 health on cleanse... I feel like we're really getting into the weeds.

You need to reread your own profession's traits. Compunding chemicals is 37 health on boon, not cleanse. Adds up when you're holosmiths and scrappers average 7 boons per second while in combat on top of all the other top tier healing they have.

[rng.1024]

@toxic.3648 said:

@"rng.1024" said:It creates no combo field and can simply be bodyblocked, no need for any projectile denial whatsoever. But I still don't get why it's so wong he gets a few seconds stealth every now and then, either it's offensive and he will reveal himself or it's defensive allowing a quick escape. Since when was this overpowered? It's literally been like that forever.well to be fair the stealth from toss elixir S is a wee bit much considering its aoe 6 sec (toolbelt skills are supposed to be weaker than utility yet i dont know any stealth utility on par with this except for mesmer elite or scrapper elite) no idea what u mean by bodyblock. ur teammate supposed to block the elixir? cuz enemies dont do that (just tested to be sure)the duration should be cut to 3 sec / 4 sec traitedSame goes for their heal, so they can blast it a little more and all of a sudden it's op?well the thing with healing is that u apply counterpressure while healing, also good luck interrupting holo in photon forge when he wanna heal, most likely stab is up from either holo 3 or elixir U. then again most heals ingame can be interrupted so this is not only a holo problem. or kite away(use that 6 sec stealth of ours) to heal up not to mention the heat therapy/vigor synergy/vent exhaustAs far as I can tell your issue is with holosmith sustain as a bruiser compared to the damage they can put out utilizing might. Which they sacrifice an amulet for. A rune aswell. And 2 traitlines. Again I totally get your frustration if you are trying to 1v1 it, but it's just the name of the game and holosmith is not alone in it's sidenoding capacity, meaning you need a +1 to take it down most of the time.what amulet/rune are we sacrificing exactly? demolsiher is pretty much as meta as it gets and boon duration runes are just playing to holo's strenghts since we rely on boons big time and kitten them out like we got diarhea besides we dont rly need dmg oriented runes to deal good dmg. heck what traitlines are we sacrificing? alchemy for boons/sustain, tools for utility/10% dmg buff and perma vigor/holo for dmg and heals + utility in form of cleanse and stab. i see no sacrifice other than we are building little for dmg yet have a kitten of it. even utilities are all active defenses / elixir u quickness for offense. i agree the might stacking need to be cut down, mainly minor elixir B is a bit much with HGH. purity of purpose is normally used for prot holo's and ironblodded havent been used since we ran exceed/sd holoIt's not like you don't have options, you can play a bruiser yourself, convert that might, range it, rotate away or kite.ye we can play either spb/soulbeast/necro to counter holo. gl on all the other classes thoLet's say we increased heal turret's cd to 30 seconds and the elixir to 60 seconds. Would that fix all your issues? No, they would still be able to use those at their leisure and someone good at kiting would do just as well with the increase. A better solution would be to hit the might generation via traits first, and then take a look at protection uptime, because it would reward good skill rotations instead of outright push holosmith out of meta.remove regen from healing turret, cut the 10 stacks heat therapy and make 5 baseline/cut down on the vigor/increase holo 2 cd and remove holo 5 100% crit and reduce range. ofc in conjuction with other overperforming specs so we're bringing the powercreep down a notch. no need to scepter 3 nerf it

It's 6 sec traited, HGH needs to do something and that extra second is already not making much of a difference. The toss isn't unblockable, so if you stand on the holo with aegis or anything that blocks, you will effectively deny stealth. The duration is worth a stealth field and 2 blasts - and I don't see how you think it's that big of a problem. Let's say it gets cut to 4 seconds base. How would this be acceptable but 5 isn't?

If you avoid the 3 he has no choice than to pop his elixir to get the heal off - this is the essence of forcing cooldowns. Let him waste his stab while regenerating leaving him wide open for your burst after it ends with no stab and no heal.

Take away the might and test for yourself the "top" damage of a 2086 power holo. They put on sustainy amulets and runes and you expect the same result on glassy ones? Not how the game works. I agree with your changes though, good stuff!

You basically list all duelists. Which are supposed to match holo. On other classes +1 or bunker another node, it's basic conquest logic. Why on earth should others be able to match holo unless you want games with all duelists?

[mortrialus.3062]

@rng.1024 said:

@toxic.3648 said:

@rng.1024 said:It creates no combo field and can simply be bodyblocked, no need for any projectile denial whatsoever. But I still don't get why it's so wong he gets a few seconds stealth every now and then, either it's offensive and he will reveal himself or it's defensive allowing a quick escape. Since when was this overpowered? It's literally been like that forever.well to be fair the stealth from toss elixir S is a wee bit much considering its aoe 6 sec (toolbelt skills are supposed to be weaker than utility yet i dont know any stealth utility on par with this except for mesmer elite or scrapper elite) no idea what u mean by bodyblock. ur teammate supposed to block the elixir? cuz enemies dont do that (just tested to be sure)the duration should be cut to 3 sec / 4 sec traitedSame goes for their heal, so they can blast it a little more and all of a sudden it's op?well the thing with healing is that u apply counterpressure while healing, also good luck interrupting holo in photon forge when he wanna heal, most likely stab is up from either holo 3 or elixir U. then again most heals ingame can be interrupted so this is not only a holo problem. or kite away(use that 6 sec stealth of ours) to heal up not to mention the heat therapy/vigor synergy/vent exhaustAs far as I can tell your issue is with holosmith sustain as a bruiser compared to the damage they can put out utilizing might. Which they sacrifice an amulet for. A rune aswell. And 2 traitlines. Again I totally get your frustration if you are trying to 1v1 it, but it's just the name of the game and holosmith is not alone in it's sidenoding capacity, meaning you need a +1 to take it down most of the time.what amulet/rune are we sacrificing exactly? demolsiher is pretty much as meta as it gets and boon duration runes are just playing to holo's strenghts since we rely on boons big time and kitten them out like we got diarhea besides we dont rly need dmg oriented runes to deal good dmg. heck what traitlines are we sacrificing? alchemy for boons/sustain, tools for utility/10% dmg buff and perma vigor/holo for dmg and heals + utility in form of cleanse and stab. i see no sacrifice other than we are building little for dmg yet have a kitten of it. even utilities are all active defenses / elixir u quickness for offense. i agree the might stacking need to be cut down, mainly minor elixir B is a bit much with HGH. purity of purpose is normally used for prot holo's and ironblodded havent been used since we ran exceed/sd holoIt's not like you don't have options, you can play a bruiser yourself, convert that might, range it, rotate away or kite.ye we can play either spb/soulbeast/necro to counter holo. gl on all the other classes thoLet's say we increased heal turret's cd to 30 seconds and the elixir to 60 seconds. Would that fix all your issues? No, they would still be able to use those at their leisure and someone good at kiting would do just as well with the increase. A better solution would be to hit the might generation via traits first, and then take a look at protection uptime, because it would reward good skill rotations instead of outright push holosmith out of meta.remove regen from healing turret, cut the 10 stacks heat therapy and make 5 baseline/cut down on the vigor/increase holo 2 cd and remove holo 5 100% crit and reduce range. ofc in conjuction with other overperforming specs so we're bringing the powercreep down a notch. no need to scepter 3 nerf it

It's 6 sec traited, HGH needs to do something and that extra second is already not making much of a difference. The toss isn't unblockable, so if you stand on the holo with aegis or anything that blocks, you will effectively deny stealth. The duration is worth a stealth field and 2 blasts - and I don't see how you think it's that big of a problem. Let's say it gets cut to 4 seconds base. How would this be acceptable but 5 isn't?

If you avoid the 3 he has no choice than to pop his elixir to get the heal off - this is the essence of forcing cooldowns. Let him waste his stab while regenerating leaving him wide open for your burst after it ends with no stab and no heal.

Take away the might and test for yourself the "top" damage of a 2086 power holo. They put on sustainy amulets and runes and you expect the same result on glassy ones? Not how the game works. I agree with your changes though, good stuff!

You basically list all duelists. Which are supposed to match holo. On other classes +1 or bunker another node, it's basic conquest logic. Why on earth should others be able to match holo unless you want games with all duelists?

5-6 seconds has always been outrageously out of line for a toolbelt skill or even a full on utility skill. It's indefensible and always has been.

It should be 2 seconds, 3 second traited. Max. It would still be amazing and give you more than enough time to disengage, or heal, or prevent a stomp and rez. It just won't be go into stealth and disengage, then heal to full with your heal skill and 2 leaps and a blast, then use Elixir X and go into Rampage, re-engage into melee, then Throw Boulder point blank while Stealthed levels of good.

[praqtos.9035]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:5-6 seconds has always been outrageously out of line for a toolbelt skill or even a full on utility skill. It's indefensible and always has been.

It should be 2 seconds, 3 second traited. Max. It would still be amazing and give you more than enough time to disengage, or heal, or prevent a stomp and rez. It just won't be go into stealth and disengage, then heal to full with your heal skill and 2 leaps and a blast, then use Elixir X and go into Rampage, re-engage into melee, then Throw Boulder point blank while Stealthed levels of good.I said so. He ignored my post and that I compared to other ally stealth skills. At this point I just cba to argue with him. Elite worth toolbelt skill with ridiculous low cooldown... His "arguments" as you can try to call is like that... are dumb as hell.... Just instanuke the turret, just bomb him with tons of conditions,just kill him in stealth , just BODYBLOCK the elixir!? JUST SIDE STEP THE GIANT LASER!?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"Vagrant.7206 said:"As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.

Just chiming in to +1 both of these statements. Kit engies in particular are exponentially more difficult.That doesn't mean I approve of the current holomancer state.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.

Just chiming in to +1 both of these statements. Kit engies in particular are exponentially more difficult.That doesn't mean I approve of the current holomancer state.

I didnt say that lol

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.

Just chiming in to +1 both of these statements. Kit engies in particular are exponentially more difficult.That doesn't mean I approve of the current holomancer state.

I didnt say that lol

My bad, fixing that quote.

EDIT: Fixed, thanks for pointing out misquote.

[Pengu.7481]

@Vagrant.7206 said:So to clear things up, you're saying...

Regen is OP?Water field is OP?Which is it?

Dud if u bothered to read what im saying u would already have answered ur own question.Since thats not the case im gonna put this snippet for u to make it easy to understand

@toxic.3648 said:remove regen from healing turret, cut the 10 stacks heat therapy and make 5 baseline/cut down on the vigor/increase holo 2 cd and remove holo 5 100% crit and reduce range. ofc in conjuction with other overperforming specs so we're bringing the powercreep down a notch.

[Solori.6025]

@Nilkemia.8507 said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Nilkemia.8507 said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

[Solori.6025]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec. Engineer is not, no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

[Solori.6025]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec. Engineer is not, no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

Ahh yes. So viable it was invisible.Also value is what you statedTheir is no value in having a core mes vs any of the elites. It's value to any team is 0And the core traits were nerfed.Maybe engi does need trait line buffs. But that doesn't make it immune to nerfs to traits that give it too much.It's why warrior traits were nerfed to core level. Thief traits were nerfed on a core level. Guardian, ele, necro, mes, and even rev. Their is no logical reason engi should be immune and I'm sorry but the " no one plays core engi so it's fine" is a poor defense.

Edit: and please tell me when core rev was ever viable or added value to the team.

[praqtos.9035]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec.

Delusional as much as it can get

no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.True for nearly every core spec. Except thief

[Solori.6025]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec.

Delusional as much as it can get

Like. People openly made fun of ithelwen when she played core mes and came to the forums. I guess that means it had value cause one person meme'd it?

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec. Engineer is not, no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

Ahh yes. So viable it was invisible.Also value is what you statedTheir is no value in having a core mes vs any of the elites. It's value to any team is 0And the core traits were nerfed.Maybe engi does need trait line buffs. But that doesn't make it immune to nerfs to traits that give it too much.It's why warrior traits were nerfed to core level. Thief traits were nerfed on a core level. Guardian, ele, necro, mes, and even rev. Their is no logical reason engi should be immune and I'm sorry but the " no one plays core engi so it's fine" is a poor defense.

Edit: and please tell me when core rev was ever viable or added value to the team.

There is rarely any value in having any core spec over any elites. Due to powercreep.

When comparing engie to other classes you have to look at its playable state compared to them at a core level.Core engineer weapons, blow. Mesmer weapons were not in this state.

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about. I dont see its traits as doing to much just because there is a trade off of power for support, if you look at it from a core level. The issue is with holosmith itself, not the core traits.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec.

Delusional as much as it can get

no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.True for nearly every core spec. Except thief

Delusional in what way exactly? Condi mesmer and Power shatter were powerful builds. Or are you saying they were core engineer weak?

[praqtos.9035]

@Solori.6025 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec.

Delusional as much as it can get

Like. People openly made fun of ithelwen when she played core mes and came to the forums. I guess that means it had value cause one person played it?They made fun of incissor despite him being right about revenants and they being OP. All their arguments were "condi mirage crying about rev lululu".This kind of arguments as "it was nerfed before" has no value either, as mesmer wasnt nerfed for an entire year?

[Solori.6025]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec. Engineer is not, no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

Ahh yes. So viable it was invisible.Also value is what you statedTheir is no value in having a core mes vs any of the elites. It's value to any team is 0And the core traits were nerfed.Maybe engi does need trait line buffs. But that doesn't make it immune to nerfs to traits that give it too much.It's why warrior traits were nerfed to core level. Thief traits were nerfed on a core level. Guardian, ele, necro, mes, and even rev. Their is no logical reason engi should be immune and I'm sorry but the " no one plays core engi so it's fine" is a poor defense.

Edit: and please tell me when core rev was ever viable or added value to the team.

There is rarely any value in having any core spec over any elites. Due to powercreep.

When comparing engie to other classes you have to look at its playable state compared to them at a core level.

No other class has been balanced this way. None. Yet engi is supposed to be the exception and have this luxury. Surely you can see how absurd that is.

Core engineer weapons, blow. Mesmer weapons were not in this state.

False. Rifle and pistol/ shield have been part of almost every meta build for holo.

Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.