With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

Vagrant.7206 · June 13, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

-1

why be rude??

He's joking about the intelligence level of warriors. Not being rude to me.

Basically.

The real answer is that being able to have the high amount of healing per second Healing Signet provides with 0 cast time or fear of being interrupted is extremely ideal for Spellbreaker's playstyle. No matter what you're doing, hiding behind shield wall, chaining dodge rolls and evades, going on the offense it's like you're perpetually healing for a full healing skill value quietly in the background and zero fear of being interrupted at a crucial moment, unless you really need the resistance. And that overcomes how strong Mending has been boosted too while no one was looking.

When you see warriors divorced from that play style, or running non-meta builds like Core Warrior or

, builds where they're trying not be under fire 100% of the time they're often running Mending because it is genuinely an extremely strong heal.

And if you're good enough to toss just one hololeap, jump shot, or Holographic Shockwave into Heal Turret it beats Mending, too.

Aye, that is true. But that boosts the casting time of all this healing up to what... 2.5 seconds of casting time? That's a pretty long time for a healing skill.

If we're talking about interruption, healing turret provides many opportunities for enemies to interrupt:

Initial cast can be interrupted.

This is the case with most healing skills.

Turret overcharge can be interrupted with sufficient cleave damage (try putting HT down in the middle of a Reaper's spin2win, you'll see what I mean). If this happens, the engineer effectively only gets 2,520 from their heal, weaker than literally every other heal in the game.
The blast of the water field can be stopped if the turret is destroyed before detonation.

Outside of literally running into a reaper's Death Spiral under what circumstances is your healing turret getting cleaved out before the 0.5 seconds the over charge happens?

Warrior Arc Divider/Whirlwind Attack
Soulbeast Maul/Worldly Impact
Any time the enemy team is focusing me
Other holos can do it
Well-timed shatter mes
Certain ele skill combos can do it
Basically, any sufficiently hefty damage skill(s) with cleave can do it.

@mortrialus.3062 said:You realize turrets still operate on 2012 rules in that they are structures that can't be critically hit and can't suffer conditions?
5,980 is A LOT of health when your critical strike chance, and thus ferocity, and also your condition damage and expertise might as well be zero.

Correct. And it still happens frequently enough that I have to be cautious what the enemy is doing before I lay down the healing turret. I often have to wait until I'm certain the burst is over.

@mortrialus.3062 said:
Any leap or blast can be interrupted, depends on the skill.

Both core Engineer and Holosmith have a lot of abilities to make that more safe.

Regen can be corrupted, stripped, or stolen.I suppose but that's also the least impactful aspect of the skill.

Yes, this is true.

My point is, if you want to talk about counterplay, Healing Turret has way more counterplay than many other healing skills. There are several opportunities to interrupt the process, and I've seen many players unintentionally and intentionally doing it.

mortrialus.3062 · June 13, 2019

@Vagrant.7206 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

-1

why be rude??

He's joking about the intelligence level of warriors. Not being rude to me.

Basically.

The real answer is that being able to have the high amount of healing per second Healing Signet provides with 0 cast time or fear of being interrupted is extremely ideal for Spellbreaker's playstyle. No matter what you're doing, hiding behind shield wall, chaining dodge rolls and evades, going on the offense it's like you're perpetually healing for a full healing skill value quietly in the background and zero fear of being interrupted at a crucial moment, unless you really need the resistance. And that overcomes how strong Mending has been boosted too while no one was looking.

When you see warriors divorced from that play style, or running non-meta builds like Core Warrior or

, builds where they're trying not be under fire 100% of the time they're often running Mending because it is genuinely an extremely strong heal.

And if you're good enough to toss just one hololeap, jump shot, or Holographic Shockwave into Heal Turret it beats Mending, too.

Aye, that is true. But that boosts the casting time of all this healing up to what... 2.5 seconds of casting time? That's a pretty long time for a healing skill.

If we're talking about interruption, healing turret provides many opportunities for enemies to interrupt:

Initial cast can be interrupted.

This is the case with most healing skills.

Turret overcharge can be interrupted with sufficient cleave damage (try putting HT down in the middle of a Reaper's spin2win, you'll see what I mean). If this happens, the engineer effectively only gets 2,520 from their heal, weaker than literally every other heal in the game.
The blast of the water field can be stopped if the turret is destroyed before detonation.

Outside of literally running into a reaper's Death Spiral under what circumstances is your healing turret getting cleaved out before the 0.5 seconds the over charge happens?

Warrior Arc Divider/Whirlwind Attack
Soulbeast Maul/Worldly Impact

So against some of the most universally agreed most ridiculous pure damage power creep in the game.

Any time the enemy team is focusing meSo in exactly the same time most other builds will just straight up die because they can't resustain the way Holosmith can.
Other holos can do itOk.
Well-timed shatter mesLike through a 3 clone mind wrack? You realize against a turret you can't crit that's mathematically impossible with just shatters right?
Certain ele skill combos can do itLike fresh air ele? Fresh air ele is killing your heal turret in .50 second it takes to auto overcharge?
Basically, any sufficiently hefty damage skill(s) with cleave can do it.
@mortrialus.3062 said:You realize turrets still operate on 2012 rules in that they are structures that can't be critically hit and can't suffer conditions?
5,980 is A LOT of health when your critical strike chance, and thus ferocity, and also your condition damage and expertise might as well be zero.

Correct. And it still happens frequently enough that I have to be cautious what the enemy is doing before I lay down the healing turret. I often have to wait until I'm certain the burst is over.Personally speaking I can attest that by the time Healing Turret loads onto the screen, they have both gotten 6k+ healing and there is no way I can stop them in time to prevent Detonate Healing Turret.

@mortrialus.3062 said:
Any leap or blast can be interrupted, depends on the skill.

Both core Engineer and Holosmith have a lot of abilities to make that more safe.

Regen can be corrupted, stripped, or stolen.I suppose but that's also the least impactful aspect of the skill.

Yes, this is true.

My point is, if you want to talk about counterplay, Healing Turret has way more counterplay than many other healing skills. There are several opportunities to interrupt the process, and I've seen many players unintentionally and intentionally doing it.

Healing turret has the same amount of counter play every other healing skill in the game gets as far as I can tell, personally.

Seriously not a joke for reals: Does any of this upset you? Shadowpass has been talking about how I engage in personal attacks and don't argue truthfully and it's genuinely got me insecure, second guessing everything I post because aside from the odd joking and sarcastic response I think should be obvious I feel like I'm very dry and factual.

mortrialus.3062 · June 13, 2019

@Burnfall.9573 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

-1

why be rude??

He's joking about the intelligence level of warriors. Not being rude to me.

https://imgur.com/jPucH5F

White Kitsunee.4620 · June 13, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@White Kitsunee.4620 said:
Increase the cooldown of holoforge by around 3 to 5 seconds.I think Exit should be 10 seconds. Reentering is basically irrelevant.

My bad I meant to write that holoforge 3 and 5 should get a CD increase by a bit

Nerfing the CD on photon forge reinforces the pop in pop out playstyle, which is where healing turret is so strong.

Solori.6025 · June 13, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
Seriously not a joke for reals: Does any of this upset you? Shadowpass has been talking about how I engage in personal attacks and don't argue truthfully and it's genuinely got me insecure, second guessing everything I post because aside from the odd joking and sarcastic response I think should be obvious I feel like I'm very dry and factual.

You shouldn't be self conscious about making post. At the end of the day if someone on the forum is getting their feelings hurt because someone disagreed with them. Then that person needs more help that won't be found in the PVP subsection.No one is going to jump through the screen and scold you because you melted the snowflake they ride on and personally I find the majority of your post to be fine, sometimes funny, and grounded.

Solori.6025 · June 14, 2019

And I just saw this is apparently a mega thread now for Holo

Vagrant.7206 · June 14, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

-1

why be rude??

He's joking about the intelligence level of warriors. Not being rude to me.

Basically.

The real answer is that being able to have the high amount of healing per second Healing Signet provides with 0 cast time or fear of being interrupted is extremely ideal for Spellbreaker's playstyle. No matter what you're doing, hiding behind shield wall, chaining dodge rolls and evades, going on the offense it's like you're perpetually healing for a full healing skill value quietly in the background and zero fear of being interrupted at a crucial moment, unless you really need the resistance. And that overcomes how strong Mending has been boosted too while no one was looking.

When you see warriors divorced from that play style, or running non-meta builds like Core Warrior or

, builds where they're trying not be under fire 100% of the time they're often running Mending because it is genuinely an extremely strong heal.

And if you're good enough to toss just one hololeap, jump shot, or Holographic Shockwave into Heal Turret it beats Mending, too.

Aye, that is true. But that boosts the casting time of all this healing up to what... 2.5 seconds of casting time? That's a pretty long time for a healing skill.

If we're talking about interruption, healing turret provides many opportunities for enemies to interrupt:

Initial cast can be interrupted.

This is the case with most healing skills.

Turret overcharge can be interrupted with sufficient cleave damage (try putting HT down in the middle of a Reaper's spin2win, you'll see what I mean). If this happens, the engineer effectively only gets 2,520 from their heal, weaker than literally every other heal in the game.
The blast of the water field can be stopped if the turret is destroyed before detonation.

Outside of literally running into a reaper's Death Spiral under what circumstances is your healing turret getting cleaved out before the 0.5 seconds the over charge happens?

Warrior Arc Divider/Whirlwind Attack
Soulbeast Maul/Worldly Impact

So against some of the most universally agreed most ridiculous pure damage power creep in the game.

Any time the enemy team is focusing meSo in exactly the same time most other builds will just straight up die because they can't resustain the way Holosmith can.
Other holos can do itOk.
Well-timed shatter mesLike through a 3 clone mind wrack? You realize against a turret you can't crit that's mathematically impossible with just shatters right?
Certain ele skill combos can do itLike fresh air ele? Fresh air ele is killing your heal turret in .50 second it takes to auto overcharge?
Basically, any sufficiently hefty damage skill(s) with cleave can do it.
@mortrialus.3062 said:You realize turrets still operate on 2012 rules in that they are structures that can't be critically hit and can't suffer conditions?
5,980 is A LOT of health when your critical strike chance, and thus ferocity, and also your condition damage and expertise might as well be zero.

Correct. And it still happens frequently enough that I have to be cautious what the enemy is doing before I lay down the healing turret. I often have to wait until I'm certain the burst is over.Personally speaking I can attest that by the time Healing Turret loads onto the screen, they have both gotten 6k+ healing and there is no way I can stop them in time to prevent Detonate Healing Turret.

I'm not saying that it always happens under all these circumstances. The most reliable, as I mentioned, is reaper spin2win. But I have seen it happen in all the circumstances I mentioned.

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
Any leap or blast can be interrupted, depends on the skill.

Both core Engineer and Holosmith have a lot of abilities to make that more safe.

Regen can be corrupted, stripped, or stolen.I suppose but that's also the least impactful aspect of the skill.

Yes, this is true.

My point is, if you want to talk about counterplay, Healing Turret has way more counterplay than many other healing skills. There are several opportunities to interrupt the process, and I've seen many players unintentionally and intentionally doing it.

Healing turret has the same amount of counter play every other healing skill in the game gets as far as I can tell, personally.

As an engineer main, I respectfully disagree.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Seriously not a joke for reals: Does any of this upset you? Shadowpass has been talking about how I engage in personal attacks and don't argue truthfully and it's genuinely got me insecure, second guessing everything I post because aside from the odd joking and sarcastic response I think should be obvious I feel like I'm very dry and factual.

Your tone can be... kind of frustrating? But not upsetting.

My only problem with many of the complaints about OP'ness (for any class, not just engineer) is they often boil down to strict math without any consideration for the actual gameplay or the class design. Or they lean the other way, with a really frustrated player who can't verbalize what pisses them off. Sort of like that guy screaming about the auto attacks for mesmer, without the context for how mesmer plays.

Because I'll definitely tell you that Holosmith is OP. This is absolutely true. The problem is that most of the elite specs are also OP, and I'm not sure how far ahead of the OP curve holosmith is. It has more diversity in build options, which does suggest it is more OP than not. But, engineer is also designed to have more tools at its disposal too. I would like to see it nerfed, along with all the other meta elite specs.

Nimon.7840 · June 14, 2019

@Euthymias.7984 said:

Great. An engi main, defending his class. Should I compare these to necro then?

-Great HealingOnly thing that may need a slight shave, and you can do that by just lowering Heat Therapy to 5 stacks max only instead of a potential 10 stacks over time

Necro worst healing in game.

-Great ArmorNot really. If you spec for it, you could get some good protection uptime I guess, but that's still able to be stripped/corrupted pretty easily.

Necro:If you want good some protection uptime on necro, you need to get a whole (bad) traitline for that.

-MobilityYou can probably increase the cooldown on PF 2 by like 3s, (and up the swiftness given by it to compensate) but aside from that and a utility belt elixir for a few seconds of Superspeed, all thats left is a 1200 unit jump on Rifle. That's not excessive or high mobility in the least. There's also Rocket Boots and trait but that's an investment in mobility over more quickness from KB

Necro: worst mobility in game.

-Great DamageDepends on what you're comparing it to. A lot of things are pretty high up there when it comes to just dealing damage right now.

Necro: highly dependant on corrupting boons. Even on power builds.

-InvulnVery limited, cannot act within it beyond revive/finishing targets or dodging to activate Vent Exhaust

Necro: not a single invuln

-Muh BoonsMostly through conversion if traited/invested into that sort of thing. Still vulnerable to corruption/stripping on its tail-end

Necro: very limited boon access. Least boon access of all classes.

-Unblockable....on an elite that has a windup before it fires and nothing else.

Necro: only on reaper and only if you take that shout

-BlockWithout Shield or Tool Kit, just one on over a 30s CD......

Necro: not a single block.

-SuperspeedOnly on Elixir U Toolbelt or Kinetic Battery trigger, unless they carry and trait Rocket Boots (trading the quickness uptime for more mobility)

Necro: did I mention worst mobility in game?

Holosmith is versatile but I wouldnt say its overwhelmingly strong. A mild shave in its sustain alone would probably be enough when it comes to its overall balance. Though something I'd really like them to consider is making ECSU and PBM a bit more attractive as GM traits. Right now, there's very little reason to take them over Vent Exhaust because its really effective at cutting out your excess Heat both in forge and out of it, allowing much better management of the mechanic. If Heat Therapy gets shaved like I stated above, maybe having heat degradation start up slightly faster might give the other two a bit more use.(Or maybe just making Coolant Blast consume some heat on use....that could be pretty neat.)

Seems like necro is the worst class in the game. Why do people even play it?

Ok. Less joking more realtalk.

Holo IS very strong. Not the strongest but very strong, and if they only nerfed the best builds, holo would be on top after that.Engi just has everything you can ask for tied to the core class traits and the elite specs add something as well.

Aeolus.3615 · June 14, 2019

Holo is damage overperformance, scrapper is tuned for defense.

But imo holo is way overturned, broken berserker f1 was a good challange for holos.

Trevor Boyer.6524 · June 14, 2019

@Dirame.8521 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"Moirg.7560" said:Stupid literal "supersoldier" class that has EVERYTHING. Class has every single offensive utility in the game, ridiculous sustain, boons, stealth, hard cc tied into burst. All able to be managed by a 3 year old.
It's stupid and out of control and a nerf to anything in their toolkit would be a good start. This nonsense is the kind of imbalance that results in unenjoyable gameplay and leads to people quitting.

You forgot:

Reveal
Full heals itself like a Druid, without running any heal stat

If anything, it needs its heal potential dropped down to 3/4ths of what it is now, at the least.

They have like 15k health mate. That's literally 1 Spin to win from a Reaper.

"It's unfair to nerf holosmiths when reapers exist somewhere... out in the distance someplace.... idk never seen them but they're there!"

If Holosmiths were uncounterably broken(like Mirage was and still can be), I would agree to a nerf but if a Core Necro or even core engie can make a holo look like small fry, I don't know what to say to you. It may just be a they got you with a quick burst or something?

And really, that's all they have, a quick burst. Survive that burst and watch them flop into run away mode.

What run away mode? They're going to pop either the Photon Wall or Toss Elixir S, heal to full and be right back in your face charging you. I've already done the math on just how over powered just one aspect of the meta holosmith's sustain is.

That's the thing with meta holosmith, they're rush you hard. And you can avoid it, sure. And you can counter attack in between that, sure. Maybe even burst them down to 25% of their health.

But their ability to resustain and self healing is absolutely over the top. They'll heal to full and have many ways to help ensure they can pull that off, then be back in your face with immense pressure again. And they'll jack hammer you as many times as they need until they either screw up badly enough for you to kill them or they eventually just outpace your cooldowns because their cooldowns are significantly lower and their healing is significantly higher.

Oh come on, you're over exaggerating. As one who as played Prot Holo quite extensively, they definitely cannot heal to full. The calculation you did, and please correct me if I'm wrong, was for the Holo to use his blast finisher skills in combo with HT. And let me tell you, no Holo worth their salt would come back to fight you unless they have those off cooldown.

I literally have the math. Its right up there. You can literly scroll up and see it.

I have caculations with no field interaction at all, only Detonate Healing Turret, Detonate plus one finisher, and 2 finisher. And i have direct comparisons between most other healing skills of similar caliber.

So 7k health is a full heal? They heal a lot more than others, I can agree with you on that but do they really heal to their full complete health? That part is exaggeration.

It's a

lot more

health, very quickly, than

any other

class gets without heals that require extreme circumstances like Herald's Infuse Light. Mathematically it's better than other similar heals by 30-40% without any investment in Healing Power statwise. And that's before you start accounting for Engineers who are decent enough to toss a jump shot, or a holo leap or holographic shockwave as they reengage you in the fight. And before you start accounting for it splashing heals on allies and thus deserves lower self healing, and before you realize it also cleanses conditions, and before you realize it also does damage.

A mediocre holo is getting more healing with much less restrictions from Healing Turret than any other profession. A good holo is wringing 10k from Healing Turret every time they need to. And yeah, at 30% remaining health 10k is indeed a full heal.

They have at least 15-20k health. 10k would only be 75-50% of their health. But hey, you have a point about the heal being strong so I'll leave you to it. Let Anet do what it wills.

It's everything else stacked with Heal Turret. All sources of leaps & blasts in the water field, and small regens, ect ect. This is why Holos walk off node around a barrel and then come back with full health. When I say full health, I do mean full health.

Trevor Boyer.6524 · June 14, 2019

@Vagrant.7206 said:
Because I'll definitely tell you that Holosmith is OP. This is absolutely true. The problem is that most of the elite specs are also OP, and I'm not sure how far ahead of the OP curve holosmith is. It has more diversity in build options, which does suggest it is more OP than not. But, engineer is also designed to have more tools at its disposal too. I would like to see it nerfed, along with all the other meta elite specs.

What makes Holo OP is that it's too versatile for the level of raw power Anet has granted it. It's strong no matter what it does, with no drawbacks. It's good team fighting, it actually has a lot of secondary support through virtue of Heal Turret & water fields alone, it's good as a +, and it's good at side nodding 1v1s. It's a bit too much.

But I honestly believe that almost every problem here is tied specifically to the water field dropped from Heal Turret. That or the excessive amount of leaps & blasts that the Engi has. It heals too much for a class/build running around wearing DPS amulets. For other classes to benefit that kind of heal factor, they have to run Sage, Mender, Harrier.

I don't want to see Holo nerfed into the ground. But it needs to lose a bit of that heal factor.

mortrialus.3062 · June 14, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
Because I'll definitely tell you that Holosmith is OP. This is absolutely true. The problem is that most of the elite specs are also OP, and I'm not sure how far ahead of the OP curve holosmith is. It has more diversity in build options, which does suggest it is more OP than not. But, engineer is also designed to have more tools at its disposal too. I would like to see it nerfed, along with all the other meta elite specs.

What makes Holo OP is that it's too versatile for the level of raw power Anet has granted it. It's strong no matter what it does, with no drawbacks. It's good team fighting, it actually has a lot of secondary support through virtue of Heal Turret & water fields alone, it's good as a +, and it's good at side nodding 1v1s. It's a bit too much.

But I honestly believe that almost every problem here is tied specifically to the water field dropped from Heal Turret. That or the excessive amount of leaps & blasts that the Engi has. It heals too much for a class/build running around wearing DPS amulets. For other classes to benefit that kind of heal factor, they have to run Sage, Mender, Harrier.

I don't want to see Holo nerfed into the ground. But it needs to lose a bit of that heal factor.

Basically. Healing turret should either have below average healing in exchange for having such a long duration water field. Or it should lose the field, and still be brought down in level to similarly tuned heals.

Right now it's both the best healing skill in 90% of situations and it has a field to boost it even further.

Pengu.7481 · June 14, 2019

what about cd increase on holo 2 . removing regen from healing turret. make water field 1 sec so it actually takes timing/skill to do a detonate + leap to get that healing?

mortrialus.3062 · June 14, 2019

@toxic.3648 said:what about cd increase on holo 2 . removing regen from healing turret. make water field 1 sec so it actually takes timing/skill to do a detonate + leap to get that healing?

If you did all that then you've got a healing skill that only provides 20% more healing per second than other similar healing skills across all other professions.

Pengu.7481 · June 14, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@toxic.3648 said:what about cd increase on holo 2 . removing regen from healing turret. make water field 1 sec so it actually takes timing/skill to do a detonate + leap to get that healing?

If you did all that then you've got a healing skill that only provides 20% more healing per second than other similar healing skills across all other professions.

ye but u would also make it alot harder to resustain since holo 2 isnt off cd all the time for when u want to heal = -1000 regen - 1500 leap finisher since u dont have timed the cd's right for when u want to heal

mortrialus.3062 · June 14, 2019

@toxic.3648 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@toxic.3648 said:what about cd increase on holo 2 . removing regen from healing turret. make water field 1 sec so it actually takes timing/skill to do a detonate + leap to get that healing?

If you did all that then you've got a healing skill that only provides 20% more healing per second than other similar healing skills across all other professions.

ye but u would also make it alot harder to resustain since holo 2 isnt off cd all the time for when u want to heal = -1000 regen - 1500 leap finisher since u dont have timed the cd's right for when u want to heal

I think the better solution is to just bring Healing Turrent inline with other healing skills. Any way you slice it it's still healing to much. It heals too much if you cut the regeneration. It heals too much if you cut the field. When you start piling on the regeneration ontop of the field on top of the beyond top tier healing it's genuinely ridiculous. The skill has a lot of parts and if they just stopped at the basic components before adding anything extra it would still be excellent and top tier.

Personally I would reduce direct healing by 50%, increase field duration by the same percentage. Mediocre engineers who can only pop their healing skill get a below average heal, and will likely be better off with Elixir H and Coolant Blast for Holos. Good engineers have extreme potential for self healing with smart play by comboing with the field. Really good engineers can use A.E.D. and use it well and correctly to have top tier healing.

It'd be similar to Ranger's Healing Spring. If all you do is pop the healing skill it's very much below average. If you're in the field long enough to gain full advantage of the regeneration it provides average healing. If you can leap and blast in it the water field it provides it has very, very high potential.

coro.3176 · June 14, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
Because I'll definitely tell you that Holosmith is OP. This is absolutely true. The problem is that most of the elite specs are also OP, and I'm not sure how far ahead of the OP curve holosmith is. It has more diversity in build options, which does suggest it is more OP than not. But, engineer is also designed to have more tools at its disposal too. I would like to see it nerfed, along with all the other meta elite specs.

What makes Holo OP is that it's too versatile for the level of raw power Anet has granted it. It's strong no matter what it does, with no drawbacks. It's good team fighting, it actually has a lot of secondary support through virtue of Heal Turret & water fields alone, it's good as a +, and it's good at side nodding 1v1s. It's a bit too much.

But I honestly believe that almost every problem here is tied specifically to the water field dropped from Heal Turret. That or the excessive amount of leaps & blasts that the Engi has. It heals too much for a class/build running around wearing DPS amulets. For other classes to benefit that kind of heal factor, they have to run Sage, Mender, Harrier.

I don't want to see Holo nerfed into the ground. But it needs to lose a bit of that heal factor.

Sigh. It's NOT THE TURRET. It's Photon Forge.

Photon Forge is a whole weapon set full of ridiculously good offensive skills that lets Holo dedicate a huge portion of its build to defensive options. Holo gets this basically for free with its elite spec. That's why it does so much damage + CC so easily while being so hard to kill. It gets to run 2 defensive traitlines and pack up to 3 defensive utility skills and still be an offensive monster.

The way to balance that is to give Forge better tradeoffs, not nerf the core class...

If you nerf turret, you just make core engi even more unplayable.

mortrialus.3062 · June 14, 2019

@coro.3176 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
Because I'll definitely tell you that Holosmith is OP. This is absolutely true. The problem is that most of the elite specs are also OP, and I'm not sure how far ahead of the OP curve holosmith is. It has more diversity in build options, which does suggest it is more OP than not. But, engineer is also designed to have more tools at its disposal too. I would like to see it nerfed, along with all the other meta elite specs.

What makes Holo OP is that it's too versatile for the level of raw power Anet has granted it. It's strong no matter what it does, with no drawbacks. It's good team fighting, it actually has a lot of secondary support through virtue of Heal Turret & water fields alone, it's good as a +, and it's good at side nodding 1v1s. It's a bit too much.

But I honestly believe that almost every problem here is tied specifically to the water field dropped from Heal Turret. That or the excessive amount of leaps & blasts that the Engi has. It heals too much for a class/build running around wearing DPS amulets. For other classes to benefit that kind of heal factor, they have to run Sage, Mender, Harrier.

I don't want to see Holo nerfed into the ground. But it needs to lose a bit of that heal factor.

Sigh. It's NOT THE TURRET. It's Photon Forge.

Photon Forge is a whole weapon set full of ridiculously good offensive skills that lets Holo dedicate a huge portion of its build to defensive options. Holo gets this basically for free with its elite spec. That's why it does so much damage + CC so easily while being so hard to kill. It gets to run 2 defensive traitlines and pack up to 3 defensive utility skills and still be an offensive monster.

The way to balance that is to give Forge better tradeoffs, not nerf the core class...

If you nerf turret, you just make core engi even more unplayable.

Let's say all the elite specializations got nerfed and core and elite are completely equal in efficacy and representation. Just imagine the dream balance scenario we all are hoping for.

Healing Turret would still be heads and shoulders the best healing skill in the game and run nearly 100% of the time on Engineer regardless of core or elite specialization, just like we see now.

Personally I think the reason Arenanet has left Healing Turret so deliberately over tuned since it's inception is because of the voice acting tied directly to it and the flavor of it.

Dirame.8521 · June 14, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"Moirg.7560" said:Stupid literal "supersoldier" class that has EVERYTHING. Class has every single offensive utility in the game, ridiculous sustain, boons, stealth, hard cc tied into burst. All able to be managed by a 3 year old.
It's stupid and out of control and a nerf to anything in their toolkit would be a good start. This nonsense is the kind of imbalance that results in unenjoyable gameplay and leads to people quitting.

You forgot:

Reveal
Full heals itself like a Druid, without running any heal stat