With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Solori.6025 said:Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

This is a significant issue. When Mirage first was being presented, a heavy amount of mesmers Screamed that Elusive mind was overpowered, and that the mechanic of being unaffected by cc/being able to evade while CC could not go live. Instead, Anet pushed it anyway, then:

Nerfed power core builds.Nerfed Portal, for some reason.Added more condi damage to mirage, then took it away again.Nerfed Confounding suggestions for some reason.Added Exhaustion to EM even though baseline mirages could still evade without taking the trait, thus making the trait completely useless and not fixing the problemNerfed Jaunt, for some reason.Increased the Exhaustion on EM even though nobody was taking it (why would you? The functionality of that trait is provided baseline.)Reduced the timeframe on evasion and still not addressing the fact that mirages could dodge while under cc.Nerfing power on Axes of symmetry even though it wasn't doing anything. (power build nerf again)Probably some other junk that I didn't see that would also make me squint.

They could have easily fixed that entire train of nonsense by just making it so mirages could not evade while stunned (they have the tech for it since they cannot evade while channeling tranquility, that patch was made specifically for that) unless they take elusive mind. Then the hard to pin down mirages would do less damage since they would take EM, and not infinite horizons (thus theyd have a damage nerf), and the ones that wanted to run infinite horizon would explode if they didnt play perfectly or got cced.

Instead none of that happened. It's almost like nobody on the balance team at that time played mirage, and realized maybe it wasn't a good idea to have a class immune to cc also put the only conditions on the game that punish you for moving and acting on you Then when metrics and forum salt got too high, they nerfed everything -but- the problem.

@mortrialus.3062 said:"OMG its so unfair my build got nerfed because it shared some aspect of this other build that was OP, deserved to be nerfed. But mine wasn't OP and didn't! deserve nerfs"Has been the chorus of people playing OP specs since Vanilla before Elite Specializations were ever a thing. "NeRf ThE eLiTe NoT cOrE" is just a really easy scapegoat when there absolutely are OP and unhealthy stuff in every class's core traitlines. OP elite specializations can only reach that status with two strong core trait lines at it's back.

Thaaaat ain't it chief, personally.If the core spec had heavy counters/counterplay, and then the introduction of an elite spec suddenly makes the elite overpowered af , then all they need to do is nerf the elite, instead of reaching into the classes innards. If it was not a problem with core, it should not be a problem with elite.

Unfortunately, as Solori said, they don't have a habit of doing this.

@mortrialus.3062 said:The Boosted AF Scrublord's Prayer:My build is fine.And if you complain you're bad.And if you aren't bad you just don't know what you're talking about.And if you do know what you're talking about you just need to tweak your build.And if you're build is good you're biased against my class.And if you aren't biased, you're just bitter about previous nerfs.And if you aren't bitter, my build can't be touched or the entire class wouldn't be viable anymore.And if would be then what about these OTHER OP builds?And if you want changes in other classes too, I deserve to be OP because of this time years ago when I was underpowered.

kek[#]PraiseJoko

[mortrialus.3062]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Solori.6025 said:Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

This is a significant issue.

When Mirage first was being presented, a heavy amount of mesmers

Screamed

that Elusive mind was overpowered, and that the mechanic of being unaffected by cc/being able to evade while CC could not go live. Instead, Anet pushed it anyway, then:

Nerfed power core builds.Nerfed Portal, for some reason.Added more condi damage to mirage, then took it away again.Nerfed Confounding suggestions for some reason.Added Exhaustion to EM even though baseline mirages could still evade without taking the trait, thus making the trait completely useless and not fixing the problemNerfed Jaunt, for some reason.Increased the Exhaustion on EM even though nobody was taking it (why would you? The functionality of that trait is provided baseline.)Reduced the timeframe on evasion and still not addressing the fact that mirages could dodge while under cc.Nerfing power on Axes of symmetry even though it wasn't doing anything. (power build nerf again)Probably some other junk that I didn't see that would also make me squint.

They could have easily fixed that entire train of nonsense by just making it so mirages could not evade while stunned (they have the tech for it since they cannot evade while channeling tranquility, that patch was made specifically for that) unless they take elusive mind. Then the hard to pin down mirages would do less damage since they would take EM, and not infinite horizons (thus theyd have a damage nerf), and the ones that wanted to run infinite horizon would

explode if they didnt play perfectly or got cced.

Instead

none of that happened.

It's almost like nobody on the balance team at that time played mirage, and realized maybe it wasn't a good idea to have a class immune to cc also put the only conditions on the game that punish you for moving and acting on you Then when metrics and forum salt got too high, they nerfed everything -but- the problem.

Basically. Such is the sad story of Mirage.

@"mortrialus.3062" said:"OMG its so unfair my build got nerfed because it shared some aspect of this other build that was OP, deserved to be nerfed. But mine wasn't OP and didn't! deserve nerfs"Has been the chorus of people playing OP specs since Vanilla before Elite Specializations were ever a thing. "NeRf ThE eLiTe NoT cOrE" is just a really easy scapegoat when there absolutely are OP and unhealthy stuff in every class's core traitlines. OP elite specializations can only reach that status with two strong core trait lines at it's back.

Thaaaat ain't it chief, personally.If the core spec had heavy counters/counterplay, and then the introduction of an elite spec

suddenly makes the elite overpowered af

, then all they need to do is nerf the elite, instead of reaching into the classes innards. If it was not a problem with core, it should not be a problem with elite.

Unfortunately, as Solori said, they don't have a habit of doing this.

Nah. As I said, there is no OP elite specialization build that doesn't also have two over performing traitlines backing it up. Even if you smiter's booned all the elite specializations into the dustbin of history, chances are the core traitlines they're running now would 100% still be run. And it's not just "Gutting 2012 stuff that was never a problem". A lot of stuff on the core classes are absolutely either over tuned, unhealthy, or just gets power crept. Look at warrior. Perfect example.

Peak Performance and Might Make Right are completely new core traits. They were added with or after Path of Fire. As is evading 6k critting Bull's Charge, 6 condi cleanse 2 ammo Shake It Off and reduced cooldown Rampage. Rampage's mechanics might not have been changed, but the cooldown was reduced 180 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and it gained the Peak Performance 10% damage modifier, which gives it a traited 72 second cooldown so its up every single fight. This isn't just "2012 core warrior" stuff these are changes that happened to core warrior traits and skills with or after Path of Fire. Combine them with Magebane Tether's ridiculous might generation and you get a build which has top tier mobility, damage, active mitigation, endurance regeneration, and self healing all rolled into one.

Might Makes Right is also a very reckless trait for Arenanet to have ever added to the Strength traitline in particular. Strength is the power DPS tree, with tons of might generation and damage modifiers. They've given the tree based around doing the most power damage one of the best traits for sustain and self healing and endurance regeneration? That just doesn't seem well thought out aside from "This fits thematically with Strength. Stick it there.". This sort of healing should be something you'd find in the Tactics Tree as a grandmaster trait designed for group healing and support and would heal you and your allies when you gain might.

Core stuff absolutely needs to be looked at for a number of professions and is looked at by Arenanet, and rightly so.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Solori.6025 said:Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

This is a significant issue.

When Mirage first was being presented, a heavy amount of mesmers

Screamed

that Elusive mind was overpowered, and that the mechanic of being unaffected by cc/being able to evade while CC could not go live. Instead, Anet pushed it anyway, then:

Nerfed power core builds.Nerfed Portal, for some reason.Added more condi damage to mirage, then took it away again.Nerfed Confounding suggestions for some reason.Added Exhaustion to EM even though baseline mirages could still evade without taking the trait, thus making the trait completely useless and not fixing the problemNerfed Jaunt, for some reason.Increased the Exhaustion on EM even though nobody was taking it (why would you? The functionality of that trait is provided baseline.)Reduced the timeframe on evasion and still not addressing the fact that mirages could dodge while under cc.Nerfing power on Axes of symmetry even though it wasn't doing anything. (power build nerf again)Probably some other junk that I didn't see that would also make me squint.

They could have easily fixed that entire train of nonsense by just making it so mirages could not evade while stunned (they have the tech for it since they cannot evade while channeling tranquility, that patch was made specifically for that) unless they take elusive mind. Then the hard to pin down mirages would do less damage since they would take EM, and not infinite horizons (thus theyd have a damage nerf), and the ones that wanted to run infinite horizon would

explode if they didnt play perfectly or got cced.

Instead

none of that happened.

It's almost like nobody on the balance team at that time played mirage, and realized maybe it wasn't a good idea to have a class immune to cc also put the only conditions on the game that punish you for moving and acting on you Then when metrics and forum salt got too high, they nerfed everything -but- the problem.

Basically. Such is the sad story of Mirage.

@mortrialus.3062 said:"OMG its so unfair my build got nerfed because it shared some aspect of this other build that was OP, deserved to be nerfed. But mine wasn't OP and didn't! deserve nerfs"Has been the chorus of people playing OP specs since Vanilla before Elite Specializations were ever a thing. "NeRf ThE eLiTe NoT cOrE" is just a really easy scapegoat when there absolutely are OP and unhealthy stuff in every class's core traitlines. OP elite specializations can only reach that status with two strong core trait lines at it's back.

Thaaaat ain't it chief, personally.If the core spec had heavy counters/counterplay, and then the introduction of an elite spec

suddenly makes the elite overpowered af

, then all they need to do is nerf the elite, instead of reaching into the classes innards. If it was not a problem with core, it should not be a problem with elite.

Unfortunately, as Solori said, they don't have a habit of doing this.

Nah. As I said, there is no OP elite specialization build that doesn't also have two over performing traitlines backing it up. Even if you smiter's booned all the elite specializations into the dustbin of history, chances are the core traitlines they're running now would 100% still be run. And it's not just "Gutting 2012 stuff that was never a problem". A lot of stuff on the core classes are absolutely either over tuned, unhealthy, or just gets power crept. Look at warrior. Perfect example.

Peak Performance and Might Make Right are completely new core traits. They were added with or after Path of Fire. As is evading 6k critting Bull's Charge, 6 condi cleanse 2 ammo Shake It Off and reduced cooldown Rampage. Rampage's mechanics might not have been changed, but the cooldown was reduced 180 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and it gained the Peak Performance 10% damage modifier, which gives it a traited 72 second cooldown so its up every single fight. This isn't just "2012 core warrior" stuff these are changes that happened to core warrior traits and skills

with or after

Path of Fire. Combine them with Magebane Tether's ridiculous might generation and you get a build which has top tier mobility, damage, active mitigation, endurance regeneration, and self healing all rolled into one.

Might Makes Right is also a very reckless trait for Arenanet to have ever added to the Strength traitline in particular. Strength is the power DPS tree, with tons of might generation and damage modifiers. They've given the tree based around doing the most power damage one of the best traits for sustain and self healing and endurance regeneration? That just doesn't seem well thought out aside from "This fits thematically with Strength. Stick it there.". This sort of healing should be something you'd find in the Tactics Tree as a grandmaster trait designed for group healing and support and would heal you and your allies when you gain might.

Core stuff absolutely needs to be looked at for a number of professions and is looked at by Arenanet, and rightly so.

See now, here's the thing-

I'll agree with you about rampage and its synergy with peak performance, but I'm gonna have to disagree about MMR and Shake it Off. MMR overperforms specifically when paired with Magebane Tether, which does too much as it stands. When not paired with spellbreaker, MMR only relies on might gen from GS, swaps and courage, which is acceptable to me.

You could fix the synergy by nerfing Magebane (The elite.).As for Shake It Off: Gonna need something to live through condi bombs. That shout became that way because of the current nature of condibombs. Zerker stance got whined down to very situational effectiveness, without enough given back on its cooldown, so-

I'm aware that there are some overperformances when it comes to spellbreaker right now, but I'm not convinced that gutting the core (for any class) is what the game needs. most of these things come to a head when focused through an elite, and only particular elites at that. MMR run on, say, a zerker would be far less impactful, even with Decap as it is now.

Rampage being buffed by peak performance and Magebane might gen, however? Yeah. those can be stripped. they give too much for too little effort.

also dodge bulls charge I dont actually care if bulls charge gets a damage nerf or not, its mostly a setup and if you get caught by it you're going to take cyclone axe/whatever burst I have armed if you dont immediately stunbreak anyway.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Solori.6025 said:Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

This is a significant issue.

When Mirage first was being presented, a heavy amount of mesmers

Screamed

that Elusive mind was overpowered, and that the mechanic of being unaffected by cc/being able to evade while CC could not go live. Instead, Anet pushed it anyway, then:

Nerfed power core builds.Nerfed Portal, for some reason.Added more condi damage to mirage, then took it away again.Nerfed Confounding suggestions for some reason.Added Exhaustion to EM even though baseline mirages could still evade without taking the trait, thus making the trait completely useless and not fixing the problemNerfed Jaunt, for some reason.Increased the Exhaustion on EM even though nobody was taking it (why would you? The functionality of that trait is provided baseline.)Reduced the timeframe on evasion and still not addressing the fact that mirages could dodge while under cc.Nerfing power on Axes of symmetry even though it wasn't doing anything. (power build nerf again)Probably some other junk that I didn't see that would also make me squint.

They could have easily fixed that entire train of nonsense by just making it so mirages could not evade while stunned (they have the tech for it since they cannot evade while channeling tranquility, that patch was made specifically for that) unless they take elusive mind. Then the hard to pin down mirages would do less damage since they would take EM, and not infinite horizons (thus theyd have a damage nerf), and the ones that wanted to run infinite horizon would

explode if they didnt play perfectly or got cced.

Instead

none of that happened.

It's almost like nobody on the balance team at that time played mirage, and realized maybe it wasn't a good idea to have a class immune to cc also put the only conditions on the game that punish you for moving and acting on you Then when metrics and forum salt got too high, they nerfed everything -but- the problem.

Basically. Such is the sad story of Mirage.

@mortrialus.3062 said:"OMG its so unfair my build got nerfed because it shared some aspect of this other build that was OP, deserved to be nerfed. But mine wasn't OP and didn't! deserve nerfs"Has been the chorus of people playing OP specs since Vanilla before Elite Specializations were ever a thing. "NeRf ThE eLiTe NoT cOrE" is just a really easy scapegoat when there absolutely are OP and unhealthy stuff in every class's core traitlines. OP elite specializations can only reach that status with two strong core trait lines at it's back.

Thaaaat ain't it chief, personally.If the core spec had heavy counters/counterplay, and then the introduction of an elite spec

suddenly makes the elite overpowered af

, then all they need to do is nerf the elite, instead of reaching into the classes innards. If it was not a problem with core, it should not be a problem with elite.

Unfortunately, as Solori said, they don't have a habit of doing this.

Nah. As I said, there is no OP elite specialization build that doesn't also have two over performing traitlines backing it up. Even if you smiter's booned all the elite specializations into the dustbin of history, chances are the core traitlines they're running now would 100% still be run. And it's not just "Gutting 2012 stuff that was never a problem". A lot of stuff on the core classes are absolutely either over tuned, unhealthy, or just gets power crept. Look at warrior. Perfect example.

Peak Performance and Might Make Right are completely new core traits. They were added with or after Path of Fire. As is evading 6k critting Bull's Charge, 6 condi cleanse 2 ammo Shake It Off and reduced cooldown Rampage. Rampage's mechanics might not have been changed, but the cooldown was reduced 180 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and it gained the Peak Performance 10% damage modifier, which gives it a traited 72 second cooldown so its up every single fight. This isn't just "2012 core warrior" stuff these are changes that happened to core warrior traits and skills

with or after

Path of Fire. Combine them with Magebane Tether's ridiculous might generation and you get a build which has top tier mobility, damage, active mitigation, endurance regeneration, and self healing all rolled into one.

Might Makes Right is also a very reckless trait for Arenanet to have ever added to the Strength traitline in particular. Strength is the power DPS tree, with tons of might generation and damage modifiers. They've given the tree based around doing the most power damage one of the best traits for sustain and self healing and endurance regeneration? That just doesn't seem well thought out aside from "This fits thematically with Strength. Stick it there.". This sort of healing should be something you'd find in the Tactics Tree as a grandmaster trait designed for group healing and support and would heal you and your allies when you gain might.

Core stuff absolutely needs to be looked at for a number of professions and is looked at by Arenanet, and rightly so.

See now, here's the thing-

I'll agree with you about rampage and its synergy with peak performance, but I'm gonna have to disagree about MMR and Shake it Off. MMR overperforms specifically when paired with Magebane Tether, which does too much as it stands. When not paired with spellbreaker, MMR only relies on might gen from GS, swaps and courage, which is acceptable to me.

You could fix the synergy by nerfing Magebane (The elite.).

Might Makes Right has excellent synergy with warrior and strength tree in general. Magebane Tether is the stupidist synergy, but it's great in general and it's very problematic to put something that gives so much healing and endurance in the DPS tree with all the

As for Shake It Off: Gonna need something to live through condi bombs. That shout became that way because of the current nature of condibombs.

That's what Berserker stance is for. On Spellbreaker you have access to Feathfoot Grace, Shake It Off and Berserker Stance and weapon swap. And at that point you've reached an area where you're literally nigh invulnerable to condition damage. And I know everyone hates condition damage because "Oh my god it's so cheap" but the fact of the matter is that you sh

And condi bombs don't exist anymore. Only corrupt bombs on necro.

I'm aware that there are some overperformances when it comes to spellbreaker right now, but I'm not convinced that gutting the core (for any class) is what the game needs. most of these things come to a head when focused through an elite, and only particular elites at that. MMR run on, say, a zerker would be far less impactful, even with Decap as it is now.

Rampage being buffed by peak performance and Magebane might gen, however? Yeah. those can be stripped. they give too much for too little effort.

Another problematic aspect of core warrior is Arcing Slice. It has the same amount of damage regardless of adrenaline level, the only thing higher adrenaline usage gets out of it is more fury up time. The end result is that GS's burst attack damage isn't impacted at all one Spellbreaker, which is supposed to reduce your traditional bursts for access to full counter.

Arcing Slice's damage should be tiered like all other bursts.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Arcing sliceGo for it. That seems fair to me.MMRHeavily not convinced on this, especially since the endurance gen got nerfed from 5 to 2 per stack. We will have to agree to disagree about which line it belongs in. I like having a smidge of sustain in the strength line, as someone who runs Str/Disc/Zerker. That is part of the only sustain I have, since I avoid running stances for my own particular luls. You shouldnt have to run tactics, a line focused on team support, for sustain for yourself, and defense already has a good amount of it and probably should not have anything additional added to it.Condi BombsThere are still some builds with heavy condi pressure out there that necessitate shake it off. If it gets toned down because the most egregious of them has been pulled back, I'd like additional cd on zerker stance with the same uptime. I've run into too many condi builds that put dots on you then immediately start kiting, that -also- have instant or close to instant cast interrupts to rely on swaps/mending for that. In addition to that condi bombs -should- exist. They just should have specific condi pools that they stick to that leave room for playstyles getting around them, instead of torment and confusion being stacked together, for instance. (/tinybitter)

They did it well for revenant/renegade, and even condi ranger.

You shave some time off of zerk stance though, I'll play with 4 seconds of resist on a cd.

[Daishi.6027]

To me holo needs the nerf bat more than Ranger.

Unbalanced sustain (damage or defense) will always be more overpowered than unbalanced one shot damage you can avoid in a single dodge.

Not to say Ranger doesn't need nerfs almost as much for many reasons as well; But Engie as a whole lives way to safely for the amount, and how frequently it can do it's as damage as holo, while backed by stability and good CC.

Anyone who makes the argument about top placements and representation as validity to why engie shouldn't be nerfed; well sorry that's not good enough.The same could have been said for Mirage back in seasons 10 - 12.

I'd have actually agreed that it's good enough reason to spare it nerfs; But hey, the precedent has been set.

[coro.3176]

@Daishi.6027 said:To me holo needs the nerf bat more than Ranger.

Unbalanced sustain (damage or defense) will always be more overpowered than unbalanced one shot damage you can avoid in a single dodge.

2 dodges, actually, (2 for rapid fire, 2 for maul + WI)

.. and block doesn't work because unblockable.. and stealth doesn't work because of Sic Em

But agree that Holo needs a good smack. It still doesn't feel like a risky glass cannon while putting out that much damage+CC. It really should.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Daishi.6027 said:To me holo needs the nerf bat more than Ranger.

Unbalanced sustain (damage or defense) will always be more overpowered than unbalanced one shot damage you can avoid in a single dodge.

Not to say Ranger doesn't need nerfs almost as much for many reasons as well; But Engie as a whole lives way to safely for the amount, and how frequently it can do it's as damage as holo, while backed by stability and good CC.

Anyone who makes the argument about top placements and representation as validity to why engie shouldn't be nerfed; well sorry that's not good enough.The same could have been said for Mirage back in seasons 10 - 12.

I'd have actually agreed that it's good enough reason to spare it nerfs; But hey, the precedent has been set.

On NA at least Holosmith mains do have showings in the top 10 and in the top 20, and in the top 30, and all throughout the top 100. It's won multiple MATs including one just this April. Holosmith is performing far better than Mirage in terms of actual performance after the portal nerf. It's placements and representation point towards it deserving nerfs along side Spellbreaker and Rev.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Arcing sliceGo for it. That seems fair to me.MMRHeavily not convinced on this, especially since the endurance gen got nerfed from 5 to 2 per stack. We will have to agree to disagree about which line it belongs in. I like having a smidge of sustain in the strength line, as someone who runs Str/Disc/Zerker. That is part of the only sustain I have, since I avoid running stances for my own particular luls. You shouldnt have to run tactics, a line focused on team support, for sustain for yourself, and defense already has a good amount of it and probably should not have anything additional added to it.Condi BombsThere are still some builds with heavy condi pressure out there that necessitate shake it off. If it gets toned down because the most egregious of them has been pulled back, I'd like additional cd on zerker stance with the same uptime. I've run into too many condi builds that put dots on you then immediately start kiting, that -also- have instant or close to instant cast interrupts to rely on swaps/mending for that. In addition to that condi bombs -should- exist. They just should have specific condi pools that they stick to that leave room for playstyles getting around them, instead of torment and confusion being stacked together, for instance. (/tinybitter)

And yet aside from scourge all of those heavy condition pressure builds are garbage, and are both out bursted and out sustained DPS'd by literally all of their power equivalent builds because condition cleansing as reach a point where tons of builds are just immune to conditions as a damage archetype because nothing you throw at them will stick for longer than a second. And nothing should have that level of damage immunity. We don't see it with power. We shouldn't see it with condition damage. Condition Cleanses are crazy power crept to the point where almost nothing condition is viable anymore.

If these condition damage builds were sooooooo deadly, sooooooo strong we'd see them. People would run them, and they would do well competitively. We don't because literally nothing can keep up with the level of condition cleanses and secure a kill in the game except scourge anymore. Period. Every single build in the game can full wipe 5+ conditions multiple times over the course of a 20 second fight except revs at this point.

The idea that spellbreaker, a build that had already the tools to permanently stall out a condition mirage while contesting the node back when condition mirage was at it's absolute deadliest, needed more and better tools to survive against conditions is nonsense.

[apharma.3741]

@mortrialus.3062 @"Azure The Heartless.3261"

Something you both and maybe the wider community might want to think about and talk about is what constitutes core and elite?

Now I know this seems obvious, if it's in a core trait line it's core but it's really not in many cases.

Might Makes Right is not a trait that was in the game before elite specs, it was never in the core game. Indeed it was added just before PoF indicating it was in some parts added to perform a synergy with magebane tether almost specifically. -Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might_Makes_Right

So is it fair game for adjustment and to be lumped in with elite specs?

This is where the discussion needs to be had as it's not a binary yes or no statement or choice. There are so many skills and traits that have been added or power creeped from core that I do feel that it's disingenuous to say that a core trait shouldn't be touched because of the elite spec as a blanket statement.

However there are some core traits that haven't been changed since the specialisation changes or even before then and I do think these by and large should be changed almost as a last resort unless clearly too good on all builds. Example: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_Infusion

[Engal.6359]

@Arkantos.7460 said:no plz nerf soulbeast beforetheir arrogance has grown to far

I smell an engi main...

[praqtos.9035]

@Engal.6359 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:no plz nerf soulbeast beforetheir arrogance has grown to far

I smell a rev main...

[Engal.6359]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:no plz nerf soulbeast beforetheir arrogance has grown to far

I smell a rev main...

First of all that's not the actual quote. Second I main mirage not rev. But now that you brought it up rev is also insanely powercrept in pvp and needs a nerf...

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Engal.6359 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:no plz nerf soulbeast beforetheir arrogance has grown to far

I smell a rev main...

First of all that's not the actual quote. Second I main mirage not rev. But now that you brought it up rev is also insanely powercrept in pvp and needs a nerf...

Just make condi-mirage viable (not OP) and rev is fine. No nerf needed. :smile:

[praqtos.9035]

@Engal.6359 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@"Arkantos.7460" said:no plz nerf soulbeast beforetheir arrogance has grown to far

I smell a rev main...

First of all that's not the actual quote. Second I main mirage not rev. But now that you brought it up rev is also insanely powercrept in pvp and needs a nerf...Dude you quote is a rev main thats why I "fixed" your message.

[Engal.6359]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:no plz nerf soulbeast beforetheir arrogance has grown to far

I smell a rev main...

First of all that's not the actual quote. Second I main mirage not rev. But now that you brought it up rev is also insanely powercrept in pvp and needs a nerf...

Just make condi-mirage viable (not OP) and rev is fine. No nerf needed. :smile:

Codi mirage is viable. It's just not as OP as it was.

[Engal.6359]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@"Arkantos.7460" said:no plz nerf soulbeast beforetheir arrogance has grown to far

I smell a rev main...

First of all that's not the actual quote. Second I main mirage not rev. But now that you brought it up rev is also insanely powercrept in pvp and needs a nerf...Dude you quote is a rev main thats why I "fixed" your message. I am fake news and apologize for not accepting your wisdom oh great one.

Here I "fixed it" ?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Arenet is clueless about their own game. Just as their clueless about soulbeast their clueless about holo and the rest of their game. Holo is so busted it literally is great at everything.sustain,hard cc knockdowns and insane burst to follow it with yet the balance team neuters other classes so they cant compete all because whiny little cry babies that fill most of the community but atleast their fotm classes are op. Good job devs as usual lmao cant wait to see how this game is in a yr. Probobly be no different.

[Asuran.5469]

Holo needs to lose some healing. Fixed.

[MrPhantasia.5924]

@Engal.6359 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:no plz nerf soulbeast beforetheir arrogance has grown to far

I smell a rev main...

First of all that's not the actual quote. Second I main mirage not rev. But now that you brought it up rev is also insanely powercrept in pvp and needs a nerf...

Just make condi-mirage viable (not OP) and rev is fine. No nerf needed. :smile:

Codi mirage is viable. It's just not as OP as it was.

Condi mirage sucks. With the scepter nerf it doesn't have kill potential on most classes with how many classes have crazy power crept condition cleanses.

Power is better. The handful of mesmers on the leaderboard are all running power because its just better. Higher burst, higher sustained pressure, and your damage actually applies rather than being gone the second it lands.

[Ten.2617]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.

• Great healing
• great armor
• great mobility
• great damage
• invuln
• stealth
• boon fart extraordinaire
• multi foe sustainability
• unblockable
• blocks
• superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
• stability and stability access
• mega might stacking
• They are also CC machines.
• oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

They can't do all these things on same build... All Holo builds requires tradeoffs to get access to some thing.

• Invul, for example requires a exclusive utility slot only for 3s invul and stealth and the Holo can't attack or cap point while this state. The CD is 60s for invul and 45s for stealth, access to reduced CD requires equip "Alchemy" and HgH over PoP and IB, loosing acces to more damage by equiping Alchemy and more defense and group support.
• Umblockable requires equip a 60s CD elite that requires a static target that just watch the skill channels. Equip that lazer requires loss of access to more heal, defence, cleanses, CC(Juggernaut and Tornado has more CC than PLB) and damage(Mortar kit and Juggernaut does more damage than PLB).
• Photon Forge requires loss of acces to kits and ranged attacks while active. On some buids, go overheated means death sentence. On some other builds, go overheated means loss of access to sustain via TRV.

There are much more tradeoffs to show, but requires a big list.

Please, show us what Holo build has access to all these things!

[shadowpass.4236]

@JETWING.2759 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.

• Great healing
• great armor
• great mobility
• great damage
• invuln
• stealth
• boon fart extraordinaire
• multi foe sustainability
• unblockable
• blocks
• superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
• stability and stability access
• mega might stacking
• They are also CC machines.
• oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

They can't do all these things on same build... All Holo builds requires tradeoffs to get access to some thing.

• Invul
  , for example requires a exclusive utility slot only for 3s invul and stealth and the Holo can't attack or cap point while this state. The CD is 60s for invul and 45s for stealth, access to reduced CD requires equip "Alchemy" and HgH over PoP and IB, loosing acces to more damage by equiping Alchemy and more defense and group support.
• Umblockable
  requires equip a 60s CD elite that requires a static target that just watch the skill channels. Equip that lazer requires loss of access to more heal, defence, cleanses, CC(Juggernaut and Tornado has more CC than PLB) and damage(Mortar kit and Juggernaut does more damage than PLB).
• Photon Forge
  requires loss of acces to kits and ranged attacks while active. On some buids, go overheated means death sentence. On some other builds, go overheated means loss of access to sustain via TRV.

There are much more tradeoffs to show, but requires a big list.

Please, show us what Holo build has access to all these things!

He's talking about the meta holo build that's been around for the past year or so.

[zoopop.5630]

Nerf Static discharge so it isn't as easy to spam dps, Nerf Healing Turret , and Nerf Rampage. We'll then See holo in a better state overall the DPS they have is fine IMO and they are Easy to kill/pick off as it is. Nerfing healing turrent so they don't gain over 8k in health back would be pretty big and would help people stop complaining so much about the class.

Soulbeast Needs a Nerf in Longbow and Dps in general. This Class the ability to dash around the map, Dps from CLOSE range and FAR while still being able to self sustain itself fairly well.

Also Nerf rev some more the class is completely broken at the moment.

Nerf List -ScrapperHoloSoulBeastRevWarrior

[Ten.2617]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:He's talking about the meta holo build that's been around for the past year or so.

Great build on propper hands!But it's a melee spec and the damage and defense isn't so good. May be their users that are being one shooted currently, or are asking for nerfs on some bunkers build because they dont equips enough damage out.

Look! very weak against condi bombs, for example(Go down in 2 seconds against a burn guardian "for example again"), and Leadership's Rune Works bad with this elite(will be cced or killed while try convert the conditions).

Stills a great build, but not close of overpower like the Op talks.

[shadowpass.4236]

@JETWING.2759 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:He's talking about the

meta holo build

that's been around for the past year or so.

Great build on propper hands!But it's a melee spec and the damage and defense isn't so good. May be their users that are being one shooted currently, or are asking for nerfs on some bunkers build because they dont equips enough damage out.

Look! very weak against condi bombs, for example(Go down in 2 seconds against a burn guardian "for example again"), and Leadership's Rune Works bad with this elite(will be cced or killed while try convert the conditions).

Stills a great build, but not close of overpower like the Op talks.

Mmm I respectfully disagree. In terms of ranged damage, it uses a rifle and has access to photon blitz + prime light beam. Also, while it's not a pure bunker build like Scrapper, the meta holo build's defense, survivability, and ability to counter-pressure are still very strong. Of course, this comes with the territory as a side noder (bruiser) build.

This build isn't weak against condis either. Whilst prot holo is nigh-invulnerable to condis, tools holo can cleanse 2 conditions every 13 seconds with healing turret, 2 conditions every 6 seconds with prismatic converter, lesser elixir c (transmute trait), leadership runes, and cleansing sigil (can be taken instead of intel/agility/courage). If you just count the heal and prismatic converter, that's 6 conditions removed roughly every 12 seconds. Those two alone are more than enough to survive a condi bomb/sustained condi pressure.

Even though tools holo isn't dominating the meta, I believe it is (and has been) overtuned for a while. That goes without saying that it's definitely not the only build that falls into that category.