With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

thijsken.5031 · June 13, 2019

Nerf holo pls

Yuff.4650 · June 13, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:I did the math on this a while ago and yeah, while Healing Turret has always been overturned it's actually shocking how over tuned it is.
To preface this, healing skills tend to come in a handful of basic models. In intense fights you can expect to have to be activating your healing skill close to on cooldown depending on the situation, so you look at the healing the skill provides divided by the cooldown to determine the Healing Per Second. You can also expect heals to provide less self healing in exchange for splashing heals out to your allies as a general principal. If you know the game you can skip the next section down to where I start dissecting Healing Turret itself.
On the bottom tend to be heals that also do damage in and of themselves or heavily facilitate damage through something like reducing cooldowns, or some other extremely obvious combat utility like Block. These include Arcane Brilliance, Enchanted Daggers, Signet of Vampirism, Signet of the Ether, Bloodfiend, Shelter. They' provide deliberately under tuned healing per second as a result of them being balanced with their theoretical damage utility in mind. They tend to range between 120-200 healing per second.
Next up tend to be general purpose healing skills that are good in nearly every situation and are instant active heals with minimal requirements. These include Withdraw, To The Limit, Signet of Mercy, Glyph of Elemental Harmony, Mirror, Hide in Shadows. They're very pop and forget, very forgiving to use. They tend to range between 200-280 Healing Per Second. Healing Turret actually falls into this category, but we'll get back to that.
Next up tend to be heals that happen over longer periods of time, gradually. These include Troll Unguent(339 hps), False Oasis(324 hps), Healing Signet(344 hps), Medic Gyro (281 hps but also heals team), Well of Blood (282 hps but also heals team). They're tuned to have higher healing per second as a result of being gradual healing over time. These tend to range between 280 and peak out at 344 with warrior's Healing Signet.
And finally you have healing skills with very specific requirements or costs to getting the most out of them. These are typically the most powerful heals when used correctly by a serious margin, as their costs or requirements can be considerably more tricky and costly in the context of a fight. These include A.E.D., Defiant Stance and Infuse the Light, Natural Healing, Litany of Wrath and Blood Reckoning, Ether Feast, Skelk Venom, Mantra of Restoration if you include the full channel. The Healing Per Second is very high, the best in the game usually, often reaching 400-500 HPS or more, even incalculable levels of healing per second in theory.
Now onto Healing Turret itself.
If you just account for the healing, the regeneration, the over charge healing and regeneration, and the only benefit from the field being Detonate Healing Turret, which even beginner Engineers who don't understand the value of the field are going to get, it adds up to 7400 on a 20 second cooldown.
2520+390+2520+650+1,320 (blast) = 7400
7400 healing on a 20 second cooldown is 370 healing per second.
This out performs all of the gradual healing skills while still being an instant acting healing skill. And we haven't even properly factored in the benefit of the field. It's trivial, between jumpshot and Holographic Shockwave and Holo Leap for a holosmith to not at least get 1-2 finishers out of this heal every time. I mean heck, what's the first thing a holosmith is going to do once they heal up? They're going to go into photon forge and reengage 3>5>2>, 90% of the time. That's another 1,320 or 2,640 added on top of the healing skill. Now we're looking at potentially 436 healing per second or 502 healing per second. That's mental. That's better than Natural Healing with none of the downsides like removing all your boons. That's almost as good as A.E.D. (554 healing per second) with none of the unreliability or need for prediction.
Even if you completely removed the field so that they can't get a blast finisher from the turret itself it's still over tuned for what it is at 304 healing per second. That's better than any other fast pop healing skill like that even still. And it cleanses conditions. And it splashes out heals to your allies and gives them a field to leap and blast in too.
And that's just how much Healing Turret is over tuned. It's always been this way. There's a reason why you never ever see Holosmiths run Elixir H, or Coolant Blast despite those being very fine heals well tuned for what they are. It's all right there, in the math for everyone.
And we haven't even talked about the Toolbelt, which is nice 1,158 healing in regeneration and another Water Field to leap and blast in, or Heat Therapy which is very, very, strong and with vent exhaust turns your dodge rolls into 786 heals, or Compounding Chemicals (36 health per boon received) which adds up to a ton of healing when Holosmiths and Scrappers average something like 7 boons per second. It's why when you fight a holosmith you might be able to dodge all of their abilities, their CC, their burst damage, and then counter burst him back for most of their health, but then have to deal with him being immediately full health again without having to completely disengage from the fight they way a lot of builds would have to. Often 2-3 times until either they finally make a big enough mistake to die or they eventually wear you down and kill you.
Serious question: Does Sage's SD Weaver even have this level of ability to instantly heal to full on the level of a Holosmith? Does Mender's SD Weaver?

Sage weaver is paper and has very weak heal,

This weaver lives as long as has protective skills (4 evades, some CC and small barrier), push him non-stop 20 seconds then he will diebest tactic is to push without burst, and as soon as he will have everything on CD - burst him easily.
Another option is just to freeze him, then his heal will be non existing.
Also CC/stun is easy way to kill weaver considering lack of stun breaks in weaver builds (good for war, revenant, etc), stun and burst = you win
Fire Sage weaver has lack of conditions removal, so any condi-bomb build kills him easily.

Noha.3749 · June 13, 2019

Idk, i only find holo 2 being somewhat "overtuned" given its low CD and high damage. Holo 3,4 & 5 are fine imo, highly telegraphed, relatively slow animations with a big boom.

Dirame.8521 · June 13, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"Moirg.7560" said:Stupid literal "supersoldier" class that has EVERYTHING. Class has every single offensive utility in the game, ridiculous sustain, boons, stealth, hard cc tied into burst. All able to be managed by a 3 year old.
It's stupid and out of control and a nerf to anything in their toolkit would be a good start. This nonsense is the kind of imbalance that results in unenjoyable gameplay and leads to people quitting.

You forgot:

Reveal
Full heals itself like a Druid, without running any heal stat

If anything, it needs its heal potential dropped down to 3/4ths of what it is now, at the least.

They have like 15k health mate. That's literally 1 Spin to win from a Reaper.

mortrialus.3062 · June 13, 2019

@Dirame.8521 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"Moirg.7560" said:Stupid literal "supersoldier" class that has EVERYTHING. Class has every single offensive utility in the game, ridiculous sustain, boons, stealth, hard cc tied into burst. All able to be managed by a 3 year old.
It's stupid and out of control and a nerf to anything in their toolkit would be a good start. This nonsense is the kind of imbalance that results in unenjoyable gameplay and leads to people quitting.

You forgot:

Reveal
Full heals itself like a Druid, without running any heal stat

If anything, it needs its heal potential dropped down to 3/4ths of what it is now, at the least.

They have like 15k health mate. That's literally 1 Spin to win from a Reaper.

"It's unfair to nerf holosmiths when reapers exist somewhere... out in the distance someplace.... idk never seen them but they're there!"

Dirame.8521 · June 13, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"Moirg.7560" said:Stupid literal "supersoldier" class that has EVERYTHING. Class has every single offensive utility in the game, ridiculous sustain, boons, stealth, hard cc tied into burst. All able to be managed by a 3 year old.
It's stupid and out of control and a nerf to anything in their toolkit would be a good start. This nonsense is the kind of imbalance that results in unenjoyable gameplay and leads to people quitting.

You forgot:

Reveal
Full heals itself like a Druid, without running any heal stat

If anything, it needs its heal potential dropped down to 3/4ths of what it is now, at the least.

They have like 15k health mate. That's literally 1 Spin to win from a Reaper.

"It's unfair to nerf holosmiths when reapers exist somewhere... out in the distance someplace.... idk never seen them but they're there!"

If Holosmiths were uncounterably broken(like Mirage was and still can be), I would agree to a nerf but if a Core Necro or even core engie can make a holo look like small fry, I don't know what to say to you. It may just be a they got you with a quick burst or something?

And really, that's all they have, a quick burst. Survive that burst and watch them flop into run away mode.

It would be nice to know what classes y'all are playing so it is easier to identify why you have a hard time with them.

mortrialus.3062 · June 13, 2019

@Dirame.8521 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"Moirg.7560" said:Stupid literal "supersoldier" class that has EVERYTHING. Class has every single offensive utility in the game, ridiculous sustain, boons, stealth, hard cc tied into burst. All able to be managed by a 3 year old.
It's stupid and out of control and a nerf to anything in their toolkit would be a good start. This nonsense is the kind of imbalance that results in unenjoyable gameplay and leads to people quitting.

You forgot:

Reveal
Full heals itself like a Druid, without running any heal stat

If anything, it needs its heal potential dropped down to 3/4ths of what it is now, at the least.

They have like 15k health mate. That's literally 1 Spin to win from a Reaper.

"It's unfair to nerf holosmiths when reapers exist somewhere... out in the distance someplace.... idk never seen them but they're there!"

If Holosmiths were uncounterably broken(like Mirage was and still can be), I would agree to a nerf but if a Core Necro or even core engie can make a holo look like small fry, I don't know what to say to you. It may just be a they got you with a quick burst or something?

And really, that's all they have, a quick burst. Survive that burst and watch them flop into run away mode.

What run away mode? They're going to pop either the Photon Wall or Toss Elixir S, heal to full and be right back in your face charging you. I've already done the math on just how over powered just one aspect of the meta holosmith's sustain is.

That's the thing with meta holosmith, they're rush you hard. And you can avoid it, sure. And you can counter attack in between that, sure. Maybe even burst them down to 25% of their health.

But their ability to resustain and self healing is absolutely over the top. They'll heal to full and have many ways to help ensure they can pull that off, then be back in your face with immense pressure again. And they'll jack hammer you as many times as they need until they either screw up badly enough for you to kill them or they eventually just outpace your cooldowns because their cooldowns are significantly lower and their healing is significantly higher.

Widmo.3186 · June 13, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:Serious question: Does Sage's SD Weaver even have this level of ability to instantly heal to full on the level of a Holosmith? Does Mender's SD Weaver?

No, it doesn't. Holo is just a 1,5 Weaver class, outranking it in every single way. Outranging (Shockwave is 600, while Weave Self is 360, same goes with leap against flame uprising, sometimes bugged natural frenzy range vs blitz, not even mentioning rifle outside PF), outdamaging (I think i dont have to explain this one), outsustaining (Holo can be perfectly fine without even looking at healing power stat and massively healing without even need to stop DPSing because of going into water rotation like ele needs to, try doing same while playing Weaver, go ahead), outhitboxing (Holo hitboxes and hit range is sometimes hillarious compared to Weaver) etc. etc.Good holo will always be on winning ground against good weaver, at best it will be stalemate. The only thing that Weaver has and holo doesn't is blink ability: leap (hehehe, with 15s cd) and flash (40s cd).Honestly, im playing this class solely because I like the design and that it is in niche. Otherwise wouldn't even consider picking it over holo, lol.

Dirame.8521 · June 13, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Dirame.8521 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@"Moirg.7560" said:Stupid literal "supersoldier" class that has EVERYTHING. Class has every single offensive utility in the game, ridiculous sustain, boons, stealth, hard cc tied into burst. All able to be managed by a 3 year old.
It's stupid and out of control and a nerf to anything in their toolkit would be a good start. This nonsense is the kind of imbalance that results in unenjoyable gameplay and leads to people quitting.

You forgot:

Reveal
Full heals itself like a Druid, without running any heal stat