Should Skyscale have unrestricted flight?

[Lady Celtaine.3760]

The green bar could do with lasting a bit longer just to give it potential distance comparable to Griffon since on the up you can expend it too quickly by mistake and end up touching ground way sooner than you would have on a Griff when jumping off the same cliff (I checked). But absolute free flight would be game breaking and OP not least in that it would mean even less challenge for mapping achievements and make travel extremely dull after the initial novelty wears off.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Tails.9372 said:

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:A scale with unlimited flight is the default choice of mount for the vast majority of content

And of course you're not giving us any reason as for why it would be "the default choice" nor are you going to attempt to cause deep down you know how nonsensical that notion truly is.

Frankly no, I don't feel the need to argue on why the only mount with unrestricted flight in a game would be considered superior to any other. Anyone with even a modicum of common sense can figure it out on their own.

[Alatar.7364]

Neither, but it needs almost twice as big/long flight meter that also doesn't consume near third of it just by jumping in the air.

[Adrianna.3092]

@Empanda.4617 said:Kinda Yes. I wish you had added an OTHER to the poll. Since I don't care if it has unrestiricted flying I just wish it could maintain the height even when the flight meter runs out (If you don't have any red on your bar) Otherwise its just a weirdly mechnic based griffin. Cause at that point its another glider and not really to much of a helicopter its like a really really really bad jetpack with glider mechanics. though I love the look of them. But the decend that is glider is just....very annoying

what you said... i agree with 100%... the griffon can maintain altitude by flapping their wings and even gain altitude thru bond of vigor... but the skyscale will slowly descend as though they were a normal glider... i feel if you reached your max height you should still be able to fly forward without dropping so that you are at least on par with what the griffon can already do at a much faster speed.

[Substance E.4852]

@Adrianna.3092 said:the griffon can maintain altitude by flapping their wings and even gain altitude thru bond of vigor... but the skyscale will slowly descend as though they were a normal glider... i feel if you reached your max height you should still be able to fly forward without dropping so that you are at least on par with what the griffon can already do at a much faster speed.

A: Griffon still loses altitude flapping their wings

B: Bond of vigor has an insane cooldown and totally negates the downside to the beetle making it the fastest mount by far but no one cares about that

C: You're trading air time for the explicit ability to gain altitude by hovering in place. The griffon can glide for longer but needs to start at a high point to do so and lacks precise landing.

Mounts are about trade offs, not just being progressive power creep. Raptor is faster than Jackal but the jackal has better evasion. Griphon can traverse terrain the easiest but raptor is still faster on a clear shot. Beetle's the fastest once charged but needs even terrain and loses momentum on turns.

[Adrianna.3092]

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Adrianna.3092 said:the griffon can maintain altitude by flapping their wings and even gain altitude thru bond of vigor... but the skyscale will slowly descend as though they were a normal glider... i feel if you reached your max height you should still be able to fly forward without dropping so that you are at least on par with what the griffon can already do at a much faster speed.

A: Griffon still loses altitude flapping their wings

B: Bond of vigor has an insane cooldown and totally negates the downside to the beetle making it the fastest mount by far but no one cares about that

C: You're trading air time for the explicit ability to gain altitude by hovering in place. The griffon can glide for longer but needs to start at a high point to do so and lacks precise landing.

Mounts are about trade offs, not just being progressive power creep. Raptor is faster than Jackal but the jackal has better evasion. Griphon can traverse terrain the easiest but raptor is still faster on a clear shot. Beetle's the fastest once charged but needs even terrain and loses momentum on turns.

yes... but skyscale is the ONLY mount that actively punishes you for using bond of vigor... as doing so gives you a red flight bar which FORCES you to descend even faster... the griffon can stay in the air much longer and isnt punished for using bond of vigor like the skyscale is...

Alot of the skyscales mechanics are there to restrict it... which makes it feel less fun.

[Substance E.4852]

@Adrianna.3092 said:

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Adrianna.3092 said:the griffon can maintain altitude by flapping their wings and even gain altitude thru bond of vigor... but the skyscale will slowly descend as though they were a normal glider... i feel if you reached your max height you should still be able to fly forward without dropping so that you are at least on par with what the griffon can already do at a much faster speed.

A: Griffon still loses altitude flapping their wings

B: Bond of vigor has an insane cooldown and totally negates the downside to the beetle making it the fastest mount by far but no one cares about that

C: You're trading air time for the explicit ability to gain altitude by hovering in place. The griffon can glide for longer but needs to start at a high point to do so and lacks precise landing.

Mounts are about trade offs, not just being progressive power creep. Raptor is faster than Jackal but the jackal has better evasion. Griphon can traverse terrain the easiest but raptor is still faster on a clear shot. Beetle's the fastest once charged but needs even terrain and loses momentum on turns.

yes... but skyscale is the ONLY mount that actively punishes you for using bond of vigor... as doing so gives you a red flight bar which FORCES you to descend even faster... the griffon can stay in the air much longer and isnt punished for using bond of vigor like the skyscale is...

Then that's a bug / unintended interaction and not a problem with the mount itself.

Asking for standard benefits from a skill is different than demanding the bar decrease slower by default, or god forbid, the bar never run out.

[Lord Voldemort.6189]

I voted yes.

Now when I say yes I'm not say yes to total free flight, as if you could then you would be able to see the boundaries of the map that some mounts can already do on some maps and it's emersion breaking. What I would like to see is that the Skyscale can hover right, and that's awesome, but I would also like to see it be able to sustain level flight and not suffer from the slow decent that the griffon suffers from. Also they could add more masteries for the Skyscale to be able to do more with it. I don't think 3 is enough considering that the 3 we get are lame to say the least.

Just look at the glider mastery that removed the limits on gliding, that was the best mastery ever.

[Adrianna.3092]

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Adrianna.3092 said:

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Adrianna.3092 said:the griffon can maintain altitude by flapping their wings and even gain altitude thru bond of vigor... but the skyscale will slowly descend as though they were a normal glider... i feel if you reached your max height you should still be able to fly forward without dropping so that you are at least on par with what the griffon can already do at a much faster speed.

A: Griffon still loses altitude flapping their wings

B: Bond of vigor has an insane cooldown and totally negates the downside to the beetle making it the fastest mount by far but no one cares about that

C: You're trading air time for the explicit ability to gain altitude by hovering in place. The griffon can glide for longer but needs to start at a high point to do so and lacks precise landing.

Mounts are about trade offs, not just being progressive power creep. Raptor is faster than Jackal but the jackal has better evasion. Griphon can traverse terrain the easiest but raptor is still faster on a clear shot. Beetle's the fastest once charged but needs even terrain and loses momentum on turns.

yes... but skyscale is the ONLY mount that actively punishes you for using bond of vigor... as doing so gives you a red flight bar which FORCES you to descend even faster... the griffon can stay in the air much longer and isnt punished for using bond of vigor like the skyscale is...

Then that's a bug / unintended interaction and not a problem with the mount itself.

Asking for standard benefits from a skill is different than demanding the bar decrease slower by default, or god forbid, the bar never run out.

Thats the thing though... its not a bug its intended... thats the problem with alot of the skyscales design.. alot of it is designed that way to restrict it deliberately because they are afraid of it being too good... like how they constantly nerf mesmer because they are afraid of it being too powerful because of pvp... but really guardians and scrappers can be basically unkillable while also being able to 1-2 shot players easily.

The point is that alot of the skyscale was "nerfed" before it was even released because they fear it being too good.. so alot of the conditions they have in place (like the red flight bar when you use any abilities that push you past normal limits) are specifically there to hinder you because they are afraid of what skyscale could do if those restrictions weren't in place... but heres the thing... you can already get to pretty much any location by using any combination of the other mounts (with some exceptions) so there is no reason to deliberately restrict skyscales with this whole red bar mechanic for using abilities to get past their normal limits when no other mount has this penalty except skyscale.

[Substance E.4852]

@Adrianna.3092 said:Thats the thing though... its not a bug its intended..

Do you have a single fact to back that up?

Keep in mind I'm talking about the negative effect of Bond of Vigor. Not what ever perceived fault you find with the mount because it's not a WoW flying mount.

[Adrianna.3092]

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Adrianna.3092 said:Thats the thing though... its not a bug its intended..

Do you have a single fact to back that up?

Keep in mind I'm talking about the negative effect of Bond of Vigor. Not what ever perceived fault you find with the mount because it's not a WoW flying mount.

They themselves mentioned this in their skyscale discussion video thing... thats the reason the red flight bar exists... the red flight bar basically calculates how far you are outside of your intended range.. no matter how you got to that point and it accelerates your fall speed the more of it you have until you are back with your normal range... but that is just stupid...

Im fine with not recharging bond of vigor or endurance when on a wall... that makes sense... id even be ok if you couldnt regain end or bond of vigor recharge while you were hovering... again that makes sense your dragon isnt resting after all...

however making you fall faster because you used your own abilities to get farther than you were meant to? that just doesn't feel right.. or fun.. it feels like a very gamey way to make sure you dont get too far past what was intended... im sure there could have been other ways to restrict you than this..

oh not to mention the fact that you use like 10%-20%-ish of your flight bar just to take off the ground is also stupid... its already painfully short so using 10-20% of it on takeoff is also ridiculous..

[Merendel.7128]

A few tweeks sure but I dont think it should have unrestricted. I played WoW back both before and after flying mounts were implemented. As fun as mostly unrestricted flight was it also took something away from the game.

[Olterin Fire.5960]

Fully unrestricted would make it a no-skill lazy mount that doesn't have any effort attached to it. So that gets a big fat "no" from me. However, if it had a non-descending canopy, and slightly more (like, 10% tops) flight meter (or alternatively, started at full instead of somewhat emptied - I know why it starts emptied, but it feels wrong). A mastery could give it one more dodge bar and slightly better endurance regen, but that's as far as I would go. That wouldn't make it immediately superior for reaching places to a griffon.

And no, I'm not even going to begin arguing that it'd break the maps - it already breaks the maps in somewhat hilarious fashions. Much like the bunny/griffon combo does. Making it less of a hassle to use is all it needs, it would have plenty of utility if the harsh canopy wasn't a thing.

Also, this is unlikely to happen - the devs working on it stated as much. The idea behind the mount was that this one loves obstacles (to regenerate), while all other mounts are made to either dodge obstacles or get over them. Such a core departure from the original design as "completely uncapped flight" will never happen, and I'm afraid even my own silly wishlist of changes won't. :(

[Tails.9372]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:That is strait up incorrect. Base flying mounts in WoW were slower than epic ground mounts.

By how much? 5%? 20%? 50%? 75%? If the epic ground mount would be able to complete tasks considerably faster than the "Base flying mounts" then they wouldn't be "superior in every regard" now would they? The only reason why a slow free flying mount would still be "better for the job" is if it's able to get across stuff like gigantic canyons which the other mounts can't. But that's not really a problem in GW2. This game is not WoW both mount and map design are completely different, the "WoW argument" doesn't hold up because you're comparing apples to oranges here.

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

@Substance E.4852 said:C: You're trading air time for the explicit ability to gain altitude by hovering in place. The griffon can glide for longer but needs to start at a high point to do so and lacks precise landing.

Dunno about that last part. I can land Griffy on the exact spot I want quite easily. While Griffy can't hover, it can descend vertically or at a slow rate in any horizontal direction, under precise control.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:That is strait up incorrect. Base flying mounts in WoW were slower than epic ground mounts.

By how much? 5%? 20%? 50%? 75%? If the epic ground mount would be able to complete tasks considerably faster than the "Base flying mounts" then they wouldn't be "superior in every regard" now would they? The only reason why a slow free flying mount would still be "better for the job" is if it's able to get across stuff like gigantic canyons which the other mounts can't. But that's not really a problem in GW2. This game is not WoW both mount and map design are completely different, the "WoW argument" doesn't hold up because you're comparing apples to oranges here.

The epic ground mount had a 100% speed increase, the basic flying mount 60%. The flying mounts was better in every regard, even with reduced speed since it was able to pass over all objects.

You are correct though, this is not WoW. I'll add to that though that EVERY MMO that has unchecked flying (via mounts or in other ways) has run into the same issues. That might not be a GW2 issue right now, it will be if an unlimited flying mount gets added. You can deny and argue all you want, unchecked flying has caused serious disconnects in EVERY MMO where it was introduced to.

That's why developers now are way more careful with adding such a feature (not only in GW2 by the way).

[arielwind.8921]

I don't think free flight make the game interesting. It would destroy terrain and adventures.Do you remember what happened when Springer came? Every corner of the map and cliffs became UGLY. I hope this won't happen if GW3 comes.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Tails.9372 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:Frankly no, I don't feel the need to argue

Of course you don't because you have no argument here.

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:on why the

only

mount with unrestricted flight in a game would be considered superior to any other

The notion of a mount with unrestricted flight being "superior" only holds true if every mount has roughly the same speed which they don't. But of course you have to be willfully ignorant of this fact otherwise your whole narrative of it being "superior by default" just crumbles down.

Ok, I'll bite and let you in on a secret that most of humanity knows for a few centuries already. Traversing above obstacles is always more efficient than traversing through them. Raptor is the fastest mount in the game. And yet, if it went against a scale with free flight, it would be a supercar stuck in traffic against an average helicopter. It would have to go through hills ,cliffs, water, quicksand,mob aggro and a myriad of other things, while the scale merrily flies above all that.

And now that you caught up to this shocking fact of life, feel free to keep arguing about the water not being wet. Although, I get the feeling you are the one pretending to be ignorant, since it doesn't serve your argument. Just be honest and say you want an OP mount to justify all that grind.

@Tails.9372 said:But that's not really a problem in GW2. This game is not WoW both mount and map design are completely different, the "WoW argument" doesn't hold up because you're comparing apples to oranges here.

Well it's a good thing then, that the developers of this game, not WoW, claim that skyscale with free flight would invalidate all other mounts.

[Tails.9372]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:I'll add to that though that EVERY MMO that has unchecked flying (via mounts or in other ways) has run into the same issues. That might not be a GW2 issue right now, it will be if an unlimited flying mount gets added. You can deny and argue all you want, unchecked flying has caused serious disconnects in EVERY MMO where it was introduced to.

Actually no, that's not the case at all. There are several MMOs with unrestricted flight which don't have this kind of problem. It all depends on how the content is designed, all you do is making assumptions based on games with a vastly different content structure but that's about it. And no, I'm not "denying what it did to other games" or whatever you want to make up here. I'm saying that it's irrelevant what it did to other vastly different games if you can't show how it also applies to GW2 which is something you guys constantly failed to do. But go ahead, explain to me how a skyscale with unrestricted flight would be "the superior default choice" if I want to get to another lane asap after the chak gerent on my lane died. A skyscale with unlimited flight would be "the superior choice" for sightseeing and "getting up a cliff" but that's about it. Everything else is a trade-off.

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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:Ok, I'll bite and let you in on a secret that most of humanity knows for a few centuries already. Traversing above obstacles is always more efficient than traversing through them. Raptor is the fastest mount in the game. And yet, if it went against a scale with free flight, it would be a supercar stuck in traffic against an average helicopter. It would have to go through hills ,cliffs, water, quicksand,mob aggro and a myriad of other things, while the scale merrily flies above all that.

And now that you caught up to this shocking fact of life, feel free to keep arguing about the water not being wet. Although, I get the feeling you are the one pretending to be ignorant, since it doesn't serve your argument. Just be honest and say you want an OP mount to justify all that grind.

Nice try but you're still ignoring that the other mounts would be significantly faster despite the fact that they have to deal with obstacles along the way.

.

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:Well it's a good thing then, that the developers of this game, not WoW, claim that skyscale with free flight would invalidate all other mounts.

Which seems to be rather unfounded as they too failed to back up this claim.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Tails.9372 said:

Which seems to be rather unfounded as they too failed to back up this claim.

I would suggest you apply for a job at Anet, to finally show them the error of their ways with your superior dev skills then. It might take a while, since I don't think they are looking after February, but with enough patience and dedication you might get your chance.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:I'll add to that though that EVERY MMO that has unchecked flying (via mounts or in other ways) has run into the same issues. That might not be a GW2 issue right now, it will be if an unlimited flying mount gets added. You can deny and argue all you want, unchecked flying has caused serious disconnects in EVERY MMO where it was introduced to.

Actually no, that's not the case at all. There are several MMOs with unrestricted flight which don't have this kind of problem. It all depends on how the content is designed, all you do is making assumptions based on games with a vastly different content structure but that's about it. And no, I'm not "denying what it did to other games" or whatever you want to make up here. I'm saying that it's irrelevant what it did to other vastly different games if you can't show how it also applies to GW2 which is something you guys constantly failed to do. But go ahead, explain to me how a skyscale with unrestricted flight would be "the superior default choice" if I want to get to another lane asap after the chak gerent on my lane died. A skyscale with unlimited flight would be "the superior choice" for sightseeing and "getting up a cliff" but that's about it. Everything else is a trade-off.

Go ahead, name some and how the content in those games was designed to work with unlimited flight. I'd love to hear since I know of none which do not have to deal with severe content skipping.

Are you for real? The Skyscale already bypasses terrain and is superior in certain situations as long as it has energy. Have you even unlocked the mount and used it?

[Turkeyspit.3965]

Nope. The devs have had a 100% track record regarding mount design and functionality. Each mount in the game has a purpose, and each mount has a circumstance / situation where it has an advantage over other mounts.

Given the choice, I'll put my trust in the developers rather than the playerbase on this issue.

[Tails.9372]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

Which seems to be rather unfounded as they too failed to back up this claim.

I would suggest you apply for a job at Anet, to finally show them the error of their ways with your superior dev skills then. It might take a while, since I don't think they are looking after February, but with enough patience and dedication you might get your chance.

Translation: you're trying to distract from the argument because you don't have a rebuttal to what I just said

.

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Go ahead, name some and how the content in those games was designed to work with unlimited flight.

Are you for real? The Skyscale already bypasses terrain and is superior in certain situations as long as it has energy. Have you even unlocked the mount and used it?

I can name some but what's the point if the game design vastly differs from GW2? Like I said: apples and oranges. Just because it doesn't work for one game doesn't mean that it wouldn't work for another and vice verca which is why I asked you to explain how it applies to GW2 (I even gave you a practical example to work with) which you again failed to do. All you guys are doing just echoing the notion that it would somehow become "the superior default choice" and how obvious it supposedly is but when pressed on practical examples you got nothing otherwise you would have properly addressed the examples I brought up earlier.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Tails.9372" said:I can name some but what's the point if the game design vastly differs from GW2? Like I said: apples and oranges. Just because it doesn't work for one game doesn't mean that it wouldn't work for another and vice verca which is why I asked you to explain how it applies to GW2 (I even gave you a practical example to work with) which you aggain failed to do. All you guys are doing just echoing the notion that it would somehow become "the superior default choice" and how obvious it supposedly is but when pressed on practical examples you got nothing otherwise you would have properly addressed the examples I brought up earlier.

The Skyscale already allows players to bypass enemies better than any mount currently available even with limited energy.

As to your exmaple, the Skyscale would fly over the entire bottom layer terrain making the raptor, beetle and bunny obsolete (the bunny becomes completely obsolete with limiteless flight). The raptor would at best allow slightly faster adjacent lane transition but loses on lane further away. The beetle needs perfect maneuvering and loses on slopes. The griffon can't take up speed on such low horizontal area. The skyscale can bypass ALL enemies which might dismount.

Also your supposed different design is a cheap cop out. Content design, map design and quest design is very similar among most MMOs. Nice try though.

[Clyan.1593]

I voted yes because i have unrealistic and unreasonable expectations.