More Frequent Balance Updates

[zealex.9410]

The notion that you trade quality for speed is a wrong one, what u trade is quantity and its what we've been asking for.

[zealex.9410]

@Ben K.6238 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Ben K.6238 said:So how do you do 1% of a complete rebuild of Scrapper, Chronomancer etc. every week?

you incrementally change the given build. If you think this Mega dump of fixes is going to be 'the one' your sadly mistaken, get ready for your next 3 month wait.

Nope - it just changes things around a bit. The somewhat overpowered soulbeast and scrapper builds get a few nerfs, everything else gets a shake-up, and people try new builds.

As usual, I'd expect a few tweaks over the following weeks to adjust things ANet isn't happy with, and then it'll stay roughly where it is until the next time they shake things up in another 3 months. This sort of system is more geared towards providing variety than trying to approach a final, optimal balance state.

Laughs in the varriety of mesmer portal being garbo for 2 patches now, such balance, much variety.

[Alin.2468]

@zealex.9410 said:

Is it not bad advertising when ppl quit because the game is boring?

Not quite. This game is without subscription, it's more like a one time buy, so for every player leaving because of boredom, there will always be another to buy the game and play it solo. Let's not forget holidays when game is sold as gift for children.

Sometimes I feel this game is not for veterans, but for new casual players who taste the game and leave constantly. This cycle repeats on and on; so they have so many sold copies, yet so little active players. This is just my opinion. Back on topic: from such point of view balance patches have no meaning, because veteran players opinions are irrelevant... only new casual players are targeted.

[zealex.9410]

@Alin.2468 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

Is it not bad advertising when ppl quit because the game is boring?

Not quite. This game is without subscription, it's more like a one time buy, so for every player leaving because of boredom, there will always be another to buy the game and play it solo. Let's not forget holidays when game is sold as gift for children.

Sometimes I feel this game is not for veterans, but for new casual players who taste the game and leave constantly. This cycle repeats on and on; so they have so many sold copies, yet so little active players. This is just my opinion. Back on topic: from such point of view balance patches have no meaning, because veteran players opinions are irrelevant... only new casual players are targeted.

New players wont buy if they dont see signs of a growing game with a strong community and good updates comming. Expacs do that and those are nowhere to be heard.

[Alin.2468]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Alin.2468 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

Is it not bad advertising when ppl quit because the game is boring?

Not quite. This game is without subscription, it's more like a one time buy, so for every player leaving because of boredom, there will always be another to buy the game and play it solo. Let's not forget holidays when game is sold as gift for children.

Sometimes I feel this game is not for veterans, but for new casual players who taste the game and leave constantly. This cycle repeats on and on; so they have so many sold copies, yet so little active players. This is just my opinion. Back on topic: from such point of view balance patches have no meaning, because veteran players opinions are irrelevant... only new casual players are targeted.

New players wont buy if they dont see signs of a growing game with a strong community and good updates comming. Expacs do that and those are nowhere to be heard.

New players do buy it, because their first interaction with community is not on forums or Reddit where people complain, but inside the game. A new player will always see some other players (example Lion's Arch) and will decide to buy the game so he may whisper or use the TP, or ask for help or for gold in writing.

Regarding "Expacs"... new players don't like to buy many expansions, but one expansion and enjoy the full game with a small amount of money. Besides: 1st expansion was more than 3 years after release (2015), 2nd expansion was ~2 years after first expansion. Most likely somewhere before Christmas there will be a 3rd expansion, because Christmas is the best time to make game sales, but they will also make bundles for new players to join, because new players are the main target.

[TwiceCookedPorkins.8940]

I'd love if a game dev company could actually, you know, admit their mistakes? Roll back changes if they don't end up working as intended? That would be far more valuable than more frequent updates.

But Anet isn't going to be that company, so...

[Obtena.7952]

@Widmo.3186 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:We dont need more frequent balance updates. What we need is

PROPER

balance updates. I dont care if balance patch appears every 3 months, or even every 6 months as long as it clears all (most) the problems and if it kitten up somewhere, then there happen to be

POST

Balance Patch clearing what was made wrong.

In most causes community will notice problems during first week after update, ANet should stay around, read those threads and think whether there is actually a real problem or it is just a Q_Q l2p issue. That happened to zerker Arc Divider, maybe with bit of postpone, but still happened.

Dev sees one "Pls nerf rev thread"? Okay, random player got one-shoted and started whining on forum, happens. 4 threads during 2 weeks? Okay, maybe actually we should take a closer look and do sth about it.Atm I think most Q_Q threads are about rev, holo, scrapper, few about Spellbroken (Rampage) and Mezmer in general. While mezmer and teef are cried all over and over every patch, do you think other (lets say 4 classes) are getting nerfed/adjusted next patch? No, they are not. At best there will be Rampage nerf, one other class (lets say holo) nerf and during same time 3 other things (for example revert rev changes, core engi gets some sick condi adjust and DH gets +50% dmg overall) will get buffed.

Which makes -2 overperfoming things adjusted, +3 overperforming things added and 2 other left alone in their unhealthy state.Ends as one step backward instead of one step forward.

And it will go on and go on until Devs will start actually caring about balance state and listen to the community, at least the higher rank part of this community instead of taking 99% of threads as granted l2p and whining issues. Because atm it looks like that, like lost children wandering in the mist.

//Despite fact that this thread is in "general discussion" i talked solely about PvP, because there are the most issues. Lets be honest, what ppl care about is when you try to play PvP and get one-shoted by evade machine with 25k hp stealth and 12k healing potential (just an example, not that this monster actually exist). Problem of having 12k dps instead of 18k dps and making you switch from Core Ele to Weaver Ele is...not a problem. And dont even try dealing with this fact.

Your missing the point, the lack of 'proper' balance fixes is a side effect of low frequency changes. You will never ever get it right over time by making changes every 3 months.its a fundamentally flawed and dated approach that is proven not to work. Also agree its pvp where the damage is done with poor balancing. There are real people involved, not just npc's, and the focus on kitten damage on bosses is a big fail - but a separate discussion.

Ive cursorily read your posts above. Why do you try to convince all other ppl, that have different opinion than you, that you are the right one? Lol, just let them/us be.

The poster doesn't realize that there isn't an indefinitely increasing relationship between increasing balance patch frequency and quality ... but he's got 20 years so ... he must be right.

[zealex.9410]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:We dont need more frequent balance updates. What we need is

PROPER

balance updates. I dont care if balance patch appears every 3 months, or even every 6 months as long as it clears all (most) the problems and if it kitten up somewhere, then there happen to be

POST

Balance Patch clearing what was made wrong.

In most causes community will notice problems during first week after update, ANet should stay around, read those threads and think whether there is actually a real problem or it is just a Q_Q l2p issue. That happened to zerker Arc Divider, maybe with bit of postpone, but still happened.

Dev sees one "Pls nerf rev thread"? Okay, random player got one-shoted and started whining on forum, happens. 4 threads during 2 weeks? Okay, maybe actually we should take a closer look and do sth about it.Atm I think most Q_Q threads are about rev, holo, scrapper, few about Spellbroken (Rampage) and Mezmer in general. While mezmer and teef are cried all over and over every patch, do you think other (lets say 4 classes) are getting nerfed/adjusted next patch? No, they are not. At best there will be Rampage nerf, one other class (lets say holo) nerf and during same time 3 other things (for example revert rev changes, core engi gets some sick condi adjust and DH gets +50% dmg overall) will get buffed.

Which makes -2 overperfoming things adjusted, +3 overperforming things added and 2 other left alone in their unhealthy state.Ends as one step backward instead of one step forward.

And it will go on and go on until Devs will start actually caring about balance state and listen to the community, at least the higher rank part of this community instead of taking 99% of threads as granted l2p and whining issues. Because atm it looks like that, like lost children wandering in the mist.

//Despite fact that this thread is in "general discussion" i talked solely about PvP, because there are the most issues. Lets be honest, what ppl care about is when you try to play PvP and get one-shoted by evade machine with 25k hp stealth and 12k healing potential (just an example, not that this monster actually exist). Problem of having 12k dps instead of 18k dps and making you switch from Core Ele to Weaver Ele is...not a problem. And dont even try dealing with this fact.

Your missing the point, the lack of 'proper' balance fixes is a side effect of low frequency changes. You will never ever get it right over time by making changes every 3 months.its a fundamentally flawed and dated approach that is proven not to work. Also agree its pvp where the damage is done with poor balancing. There are real people involved, not just npc's, and the focus on kitten damage on bosses is a big fail - but a separate discussion.

Ive cursorily read your posts above. Why do you try to convince all other ppl, that have different opinion than you, that you are the right one? Lol, just let them/us be.

The poster doesn't realize that there isn't an indefinitely increasing relationship between increasing balance patch frequency and quality ... but he's got 20 years so ... he must be right.

And you realised that from?

[b k.1648]

@zealex.9410 said:Laughs in the varriety of mesmer portal being garbo for 2 patches now, such balance, much variety.

Arcane Thievery has been trash since launch. Fortunately, there are ways to play the game that don't require it.

[zealex.9410]

@Ben K.6238 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Laughs in the varriety of mesmer portal being garbo for 2 patches now, such balance, much variety.

Arcane Thievery has been trash since launch. Fortunately, there are ways to play the game that don't require it.

Unfortunately that doesnt really mean anything, its the job of balance to bring up weaker alternatives or nerf the stronger ones, if balance happens every quarter and something isnt touched that doesnt help.

[b k.1648]

Oh, I'd agree. But if they're not changing it on a 3-monthly basis they won't change it on a shorter update cadence either. If a skill doesn't get adjusted, that would indicate that they don't see the need to do so yet.

[Obtena.7952]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:We dont need more frequent balance updates. What we need is

PROPER

balance updates. I dont care if balance patch appears every 3 months, or even every 6 months as long as it clears all (most) the problems and if it kitten up somewhere, then there happen to be

POST

Balance Patch clearing what was made wrong.

In most causes community will notice problems during first week after update, ANet should stay around, read those threads and think whether there is actually a real problem or it is just a Q_Q l2p issue. That happened to zerker Arc Divider, maybe with bit of postpone, but still happened.

Dev sees one "Pls nerf rev thread"? Okay, random player got one-shoted and started whining on forum, happens. 4 threads during 2 weeks? Okay, maybe actually we should take a closer look and do sth about it.Atm I think most Q_Q threads are about rev, holo, scrapper, few about Spellbroken (Rampage) and Mezmer in general. While mezmer and teef are cried all over and over every patch, do you think other (lets say 4 classes) are getting nerfed/adjusted next patch? No, they are not. At best there will be Rampage nerf, one other class (lets say holo) nerf and during same time 3 other things (for example revert rev changes, core engi gets some sick condi adjust and DH gets +50% dmg overall) will get buffed.

Which makes -2 overperfoming things adjusted, +3 overperforming things added and 2 other left alone in their unhealthy state.Ends as one step backward instead of one step forward.

And it will go on and go on until Devs will start actually caring about balance state and listen to the community, at least the higher rank part of this community instead of taking 99% of threads as granted l2p and whining issues. Because atm it looks like that, like lost children wandering in the mist.

//Despite fact that this thread is in "general discussion" i talked solely about PvP, because there are the most issues. Lets be honest, what ppl care about is when you try to play PvP and get one-shoted by evade machine with 25k hp stealth and 12k healing potential (just an example, not that this monster actually exist). Problem of having 12k dps instead of 18k dps and making you switch from Core Ele to Weaver Ele is...not a problem. And dont even try dealing with this fact.

Your missing the point, the lack of 'proper' balance fixes is a side effect of low frequency changes. You will never ever get it right over time by making changes every 3 months.its a fundamentally flawed and dated approach that is proven not to work. Also agree its pvp where the damage is done with poor balancing. There are real people involved, not just npc's, and the focus on kitten damage on bosses is a big fail - but a separate discussion.

Ive cursorily read your posts above. Why do you try to convince all other ppl, that have different opinion than you, that you are the right one? Lol, just let them/us be.

The poster doesn't realize that there isn't an indefinitely increasing relationship between increasing balance patch frequency and quality ... but he's got 20 years so ... he must be right.

And you realised that from?

It's common sense ... if Anet balanced patched every 10 minutes, I can GUARANTEE you that they are not high quality changes.

[zealex.9410]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:We dont need more frequent balance updates. What we need is

PROPER

balance updates. I dont care if balance patch appears every 3 months, or even every 6 months as long as it clears all (most) the problems and if it kitten up somewhere, then there happen to be

POST

Balance Patch clearing what was made wrong.

In most causes community will notice problems during first week after update, ANet should stay around, read those threads and think whether there is actually a real problem or it is just a Q_Q l2p issue. That happened to zerker Arc Divider, maybe with bit of postpone, but still happened.

Dev sees one "Pls nerf rev thread"? Okay, random player got one-shoted and started whining on forum, happens. 4 threads during 2 weeks? Okay, maybe actually we should take a closer look and do sth about it.Atm I think most Q_Q threads are about rev, holo, scrapper, few about Spellbroken (Rampage) and Mezmer in general. While mezmer and teef are cried all over and over every patch, do you think other (lets say 4 classes) are getting nerfed/adjusted next patch? No, they are not. At best there will be Rampage nerf, one other class (lets say holo) nerf and during same time 3 other things (for example revert rev changes, core engi gets some sick condi adjust and DH gets +50% dmg overall) will get buffed.

Which makes -2 overperfoming things adjusted, +3 overperforming things added and 2 other left alone in their unhealthy state.Ends as one step backward instead of one step forward.

And it will go on and go on until Devs will start actually caring about balance state and listen to the community, at least the higher rank part of this community instead of taking 99% of threads as granted l2p and whining issues. Because atm it looks like that, like lost children wandering in the mist.

//Despite fact that this thread is in "general discussion" i talked solely about PvP, because there are the most issues. Lets be honest, what ppl care about is when you try to play PvP and get one-shoted by evade machine with 25k hp stealth and 12k healing potential (just an example, not that this monster actually exist). Problem of having 12k dps instead of 18k dps and making you switch from Core Ele to Weaver Ele is...not a problem. And dont even try dealing with this fact.

Your missing the point, the lack of 'proper' balance fixes is a side effect of low frequency changes. You will never ever get it right over time by making changes every 3 months.its a fundamentally flawed and dated approach that is proven not to work. Also agree its pvp where the damage is done with poor balancing. There are real people involved, not just npc's, and the focus on kitten damage on bosses is a big fail - but a separate discussion.

Ive cursorily read your posts above. Why do you try to convince all other ppl, that have different opinion than you, that you are the right one? Lol, just let them/us be.

The poster doesn't realize that there isn't an indefinitely increasing relationship between increasing balance patch frequency and quality ... but he's got 20 years so ... he must be right.

And you realised that from?

It's common sense ... if Anet balanced patched every 10 minutes, I can GUARANTEE you that they are not high quality changes.

And how does hyperbole help your arguement?

[Obtena.7952]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:We dont need more frequent balance updates. What we need is

PROPER

balance updates. I dont care if balance patch appears every 3 months, or even every 6 months as long as it clears all (most) the problems and if it kitten up somewhere, then there happen to be

POST

Balance Patch clearing what was made wrong.

In most causes community will notice problems during first week after update, ANet should stay around, read those threads and think whether there is actually a real problem or it is just a Q_Q l2p issue. That happened to zerker Arc Divider, maybe with bit of postpone, but still happened.

Dev sees one "Pls nerf rev thread"? Okay, random player got one-shoted and started whining on forum, happens. 4 threads during 2 weeks? Okay, maybe actually we should take a closer look and do sth about it.Atm I think most Q_Q threads are about rev, holo, scrapper, few about Spellbroken (Rampage) and Mezmer in general. While mezmer and teef are cried all over and over every patch, do you think other (lets say 4 classes) are getting nerfed/adjusted next patch? No, they are not. At best there will be Rampage nerf, one other class (lets say holo) nerf and during same time 3 other things (for example revert rev changes, core engi gets some sick condi adjust and DH gets +50% dmg overall) will get buffed.

Which makes -2 overperfoming things adjusted, +3 overperforming things added and 2 other left alone in their unhealthy state.Ends as one step backward instead of one step forward.

And it will go on and go on until Devs will start actually caring about balance state and listen to the community, at least the higher rank part of this community instead of taking 99% of threads as granted l2p and whining issues. Because atm it looks like that, like lost children wandering in the mist.

//Despite fact that this thread is in "general discussion" i talked solely about PvP, because there are the most issues. Lets be honest, what ppl care about is when you try to play PvP and get one-shoted by evade machine with 25k hp stealth and 12k healing potential (just an example, not that this monster actually exist). Problem of having 12k dps instead of 18k dps and making you switch from Core Ele to Weaver Ele is...not a problem. And dont even try dealing with this fact.

Your missing the point, the lack of 'proper' balance fixes is a side effect of low frequency changes. You will never ever get it right over time by making changes every 3 months.its a fundamentally flawed and dated approach that is proven not to work. Also agree its pvp where the damage is done with poor balancing. There are real people involved, not just npc's, and the focus on kitten damage on bosses is a big fail - but a separate discussion.

Ive cursorily read your posts above. Why do you try to convince all other ppl, that have different opinion than you, that you are the right one? Lol, just let them/us be.

The poster doesn't realize that there isn't an indefinitely increasing relationship between increasing balance patch frequency and quality ... but he's got 20 years so ... he must be right.

And you realised that from?

It's common sense ... if Anet balanced patched every 10 minutes, I can GUARANTEE you that they are not high quality changes.

And how does hyperbole help your arguement?

Clearly appealing to logic doesn't help so maybe that will. I don't actually know how this isn't obvious to people. Frequency has nothing to do with quality of patches or some idea that we get to 'better' faster. Whatever process Anet has, it makes no sense for anyone to assume it could be faster to get us balance because no one knows what their process is. It's such a flawed bit of nonsense.

What people want doesn't automatically align to what Anet delivers just because it's more often or faster or whatever.

[zealex.9410]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:We dont need more frequent balance updates. What we need is

PROPER

balance updates. I dont care if balance patch appears every 3 months, or even every 6 months as long as it clears all (most) the problems and if it kitten up somewhere, then there happen to be

POST

Balance Patch clearing what was made wrong.

In most causes community will notice problems during first week after update, ANet should stay around, read those threads and think whether there is actually a real problem or it is just a Q_Q l2p issue. That happened to zerker Arc Divider, maybe with bit of postpone, but still happened.

Dev sees one "Pls nerf rev thread"? Okay, random player got one-shoted and started whining on forum, happens. 4 threads during 2 weeks? Okay, maybe actually we should take a closer look and do sth about it.Atm I think most Q_Q threads are about rev, holo, scrapper, few about Spellbroken (Rampage) and Mezmer in general. While mezmer and teef are cried all over and over every patch, do you think other (lets say 4 classes) are getting nerfed/adjusted next patch? No, they are not. At best there will be Rampage nerf, one other class (lets say holo) nerf and during same time 3 other things (for example revert rev changes, core engi gets some sick condi adjust and DH gets +50% dmg overall) will get buffed.

Which makes -2 overperfoming things adjusted, +3 overperforming things added and 2 other left alone in their unhealthy state.Ends as one step backward instead of one step forward.

And it will go on and go on until Devs will start actually caring about balance state and listen to the community, at least the higher rank part of this community instead of taking 99% of threads as granted l2p and whining issues. Because atm it looks like that, like lost children wandering in the mist.

//Despite fact that this thread is in "general discussion" i talked solely about PvP, because there are the most issues. Lets be honest, what ppl care about is when you try to play PvP and get one-shoted by evade machine with 25k hp stealth and 12k healing potential (just an example, not that this monster actually exist). Problem of having 12k dps instead of 18k dps and making you switch from Core Ele to Weaver Ele is...not a problem. And dont even try dealing with this fact.

Your missing the point, the lack of 'proper' balance fixes is a side effect of low frequency changes. You will never ever get it right over time by making changes every 3 months.its a fundamentally flawed and dated approach that is proven not to work. Also agree its pvp where the damage is done with poor balancing. There are real people involved, not just npc's, and the focus on kitten damage on bosses is a big fail - but a separate discussion.

Ive cursorily read your posts above. Why do you try to convince all other ppl, that have different opinion than you, that you are the right one? Lol, just let them/us be.

The poster doesn't realize that there isn't an indefinitely increasing relationship between increasing balance patch frequency and quality ... but he's got 20 years so ... he must be right.

And you realised that from?

It's common sense ... if Anet balanced patched every 10 minutes, I can GUARANTEE you that they are not high quality changes.

And how does hyperbole help your arguement?

Clearly appealing to logic doesn't help so maybe that will. I don't actually know how this isn't obvious to people. Frequency has nothing to do with quality of patches or some idea that we get to 'better' faster. Whatever process Anet has, it makes no sense for anyone to assume it could be faster to get us balance because no one knows what their process is. It's such a flawed bit of nonsense.

What people want doesn't automatically align to what Anet delivers just because it's more often or faster or whatever.

What logic? Logic if we take the prospective of someone with experience (at least more experience here than you and me) and look at other games with pvp says that shorter balance circle does the trick better than longer ones.

Now if you think anet doing a patch every quarter is somehow them having a fast aproach to balance then you clearly dont know what fast or slow is. Anet is doing relatively big patches every quarter and they rarely adress glarring issues post patch until the next one which again takes a quarter. No matter how you look at it a quarter isnt FAST.

Further more jobody is claiming we will start seeing result immidiately as the team would need time ti abjust to the new process. Tackling a problem faster from the moment it apears is almost universally better, the only case i can imagine it not being is if we dont know the nature of said problem which in our case is a non issue because if theres a problem the playerbase has it found and documented within a week 2 weeks tops.

[ardhikaizecson.3697]

changing stats on ascended armor, let alone the trinkets are expensive yo.

[Obtena.7952]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:We dont need more frequent balance updates. What we need is

PROPER

balance updates. I dont care if balance patch appears every 3 months, or even every 6 months as long as it clears all (most) the problems and if it kitten up somewhere, then there happen to be

POST

Balance Patch clearing what was made wrong.

In most causes community will notice problems during first week after update, ANet should stay around, read those threads and think whether there is actually a real problem or it is just a Q_Q l2p issue. That happened to zerker Arc Divider, maybe with bit of postpone, but still happened.

Dev sees one "Pls nerf rev thread"? Okay, random player got one-shoted and started whining on forum, happens. 4 threads during 2 weeks? Okay, maybe actually we should take a closer look and do sth about it.Atm I think most Q_Q threads are about rev, holo, scrapper, few about Spellbroken (Rampage) and Mezmer in general. While mezmer and teef are cried all over and over every patch, do you think other (lets say 4 classes) are getting nerfed/adjusted next patch? No, they are not. At best there will be Rampage nerf, one other class (lets say holo) nerf and during same time 3 other things (for example revert rev changes, core engi gets some sick condi adjust and DH gets +50% dmg overall) will get buffed.

Which makes -2 overperfoming things adjusted, +3 overperforming things added and 2 other left alone in their unhealthy state.Ends as one step backward instead of one step forward.

And it will go on and go on until Devs will start actually caring about balance state and listen to the community, at least the higher rank part of this community instead of taking 99% of threads as granted l2p and whining issues. Because atm it looks like that, like lost children wandering in the mist.

//Despite fact that this thread is in "general discussion" i talked solely about PvP, because there are the most issues. Lets be honest, what ppl care about is when you try to play PvP and get one-shoted by evade machine with 25k hp stealth and 12k healing potential (just an example, not that this monster actually exist). Problem of having 12k dps instead of 18k dps and making you switch from Core Ele to Weaver Ele is...not a problem. And dont even try dealing with this fact.

Your missing the point, the lack of 'proper' balance fixes is a side effect of low frequency changes. You will never ever get it right over time by making changes every 3 months.its a fundamentally flawed and dated approach that is proven not to work. Also agree its pvp where the damage is done with poor balancing. There are real people involved, not just npc's, and the focus on kitten damage on bosses is a big fail - but a separate discussion.

Ive cursorily read your posts above. Why do you try to convince all other ppl, that have different opinion than you, that you are the right one? Lol, just let them/us be.

The poster doesn't realize that there isn't an indefinitely increasing relationship between increasing balance patch frequency and quality ... but he's got 20 years so ... he must be right.

And you realised that from?

It's common sense ... if Anet balanced patched every 10 minutes, I can GUARANTEE you that they are not high quality changes.

And how does hyperbole help your arguement?

Clearly appealing to logic doesn't help so maybe that will. I don't actually know how this isn't obvious to people. Frequency has nothing to do with quality of patches or some idea that we get to 'better' faster. Whatever process Anet has, it makes no sense for anyone to assume it could be faster to get us balance because no one knows what their process is. It's such a flawed bit of nonsense.

What people want doesn't automatically align to what Anet delivers just because it's more often or faster or whatever.

What logic? Logic if we take the prospective of someone with experience (at least more experience here than you and me) and look at other games with pvp says that shorter balance circle does the trick better than longer ones.

Now if you think anet doing a patch every quarter is somehow them having a fast aproach to balance then you clearly dont know what fast or slow is. Anet is doing relatively big patches every quarter and they rarely adress glarring issues post patch until the next one which again takes a quarter. No matter how you look at it a quarter isnt FAST.

Further more jobody is claiming we will start seeing result immidiately as the team would need time ti abjust to the new process. Tackling a problem faster from the moment it apears is almost universally better, the only case i can imagine it not being is if we dont know the nature of said problem which in our case is a non issue because if theres a problem the playerbase has it found and documented within a week 2 weeks tops.

Again ... there is a limit to and it seems at your convenience, you want to ignore it. That doesn't make it go away. You don't know their process, so you can't ignorantly make statements like faster will be better. Unlike you, I'm NOT going to make assumptions to justify why something should be different, because that's ridiculous. I don't know ... and neither do you. What I do know is that there is no correlation between how fast something can be done and how well it will be done unless you know how they do things.

[zealex.9410]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:We dont need more frequent balance updates. What we need is

PROPER

balance updates. I dont care if balance patch appears every 3 months, or even every 6 months as long as it clears all (most) the problems and if it kitten up somewhere, then there happen to be

POST

Balance Patch clearing what was made wrong.

In most causes community will notice problems during first week after update, ANet should stay around, read those threads and think whether there is actually a real problem or it is just a Q_Q l2p issue. That happened to zerker Arc Divider, maybe with bit of postpone, but still happened.

Dev sees one "Pls nerf rev thread"? Okay, random player got one-shoted and started whining on forum, happens. 4 threads during 2 weeks? Okay, maybe actually we should take a closer look and do sth about it.Atm I think most Q_Q threads are about rev, holo, scrapper, few about Spellbroken (Rampage) and Mezmer in general. While mezmer and teef are cried all over and over every patch, do you think other (lets say 4 classes) are getting nerfed/adjusted next patch? No, they are not. At best there will be Rampage nerf, one other class (lets say holo) nerf and during same time 3 other things (for example revert rev changes, core engi gets some sick condi adjust and DH gets +50% dmg overall) will get buffed.

Which makes -2 overperfoming things adjusted, +3 overperforming things added and 2 other left alone in their unhealthy state.Ends as one step backward instead of one step forward.

And it will go on and go on until Devs will start actually caring about balance state and listen to the community, at least the higher rank part of this community instead of taking 99% of threads as granted l2p and whining issues. Because atm it looks like that, like lost children wandering in the mist.

//Despite fact that this thread is in "general discussion" i talked solely about PvP, because there are the most issues. Lets be honest, what ppl care about is when you try to play PvP and get one-shoted by evade machine with 25k hp stealth and 12k healing potential (just an example, not that this monster actually exist). Problem of having 12k dps instead of 18k dps and making you switch from Core Ele to Weaver Ele is...not a problem. And dont even try dealing with this fact.

Your missing the point, the lack of 'proper' balance fixes is a side effect of low frequency changes. You will never ever get it right over time by making changes every 3 months.its a fundamentally flawed and dated approach that is proven not to work. Also agree its pvp where the damage is done with poor balancing. There are real people involved, not just npc's, and the focus on kitten damage on bosses is a big fail - but a separate discussion.

Ive cursorily read your posts above. Why do you try to convince all other ppl, that have different opinion than you, that you are the right one? Lol, just let them/us be.

The poster doesn't realize that there isn't an indefinitely increasing relationship between increasing balance patch frequency and quality ... but he's got 20 years so ... he must be right.

And you realised that from?

It's common sense ... if Anet balanced patched every 10 minutes, I can GUARANTEE you that they are not high quality changes.

And how does hyperbole help your arguement?

Clearly appealing to logic doesn't help so maybe that will. I don't actually know how this isn't obvious to people. Frequency has nothing to do with quality of patches or some idea that we get to 'better' faster. Whatever process Anet has, it makes no sense for anyone to assume it could be faster to get us balance because no one knows what their process is. It's such a flawed bit of nonsense.

What people want doesn't automatically align to what Anet delivers just because it's more often or faster or whatever.

What logic? Logic if we take the prospective of someone with experience (at least more experience here than you and me) and look at other games with pvp says that shorter balance circle does the trick better than longer ones.

Now if you think anet doing a patch every quarter is somehow them having a fast aproach to balance then you clearly dont know what fast or slow is. Anet is doing relatively big patches every quarter and they rarely adress glarring issues post patch until the next one which again takes a quarter. No matter how you look at it a quarter isnt FAST.

Further more jobody is claiming we will start seeing result immidiately as the team would need time ti abjust to the new process. Tackling a problem faster from the moment it apears is almost universally better, the only case i can imagine it not being is if we dont know the nature of said problem which in our case is a non issue because if theres a problem the playerbase has it found and documented within a week 2 weeks tops.

Again ... there is a limit to and it seems at your convenience, you want to ignore it. That doesn't make it go away. You don't know their process, so you can't ignorantly make statements like faster will be better. Unlike you, I'm NOT going to make assumptions to justify why something should be different, because that's ridiculous. I don't know ... and neither do you. What I do know is that there is no correlation between how fast something can be done and how well it will be done unless you know how they do things.

And what i know is that the current state of things is far very far from ideal and things could improve and looking at other titles are fsr better.

There is a correlation between how slowly something will be done and much the game will be worse because of said slow speed at adressing issues. If a problem has been identified for weeks then what purpose does it serve to not attempt to solve it fast rather than looking at a quarter sized w8ing time.

By your pov there would be nothing wrong with having one balance patch per year.

[Obtena.7952]

I agree it's not ideal ... but just being desperate and trying to promote any idea no matter how absurd isn't the answer either. I agree there is a correlation to speed and how that stagnation affects the players ... I'm not going to agree that more frequent balance patches is going to fix that, because only Anet knows what their process is for how they balance the game. Lots of frequent bad balance patches are just as bad as the one bad balance patch. They aren't different, except in the mind of anxious players that aren't happy with the balance.

let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? Are players going to be MORE satisfied because Anet put 10 patches in and got the same result if they only put in 1? I don't think people are being honest with themselves here ... desperate people rarely are.

[zealex.9410]

@Obtena.7952 said:let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? Are players going to be MORE satisfied because Anet put 10 patches in and got the same result if they only put in 1? I don't think people are being honest with themselves here ... desperate people rarely are.

But this example doesnt line up with your stance on how things work neither with how anet performs.

What I do know is that there is no correlation between how fast something can be done and how well it will be done unless you know how they do things.

We've seen imbalances, bugs, skill breaking issues go on for a long time, often spamming multiple patches without being adressed and in your opinion speed of tackling a problem in the case of anet doesnt garantee success.

If the goal is to adress a problem:It could take 10 patches over x months or it could take the 1 patch to be fixed, it could be adressed by the 1st patch of the 10 or the the 1 patch every x months could miss the mark, everyone of the 10 patches could possibly adress it over these x months or only the 1 patch over these x months could.

So basically what you are asking me is:Would i rather have 1/10th of the w8 between each patch for a maybe or the full w8 per patch for a maybe?

Id take the 1/10th of a w8, tho i consider having 10 patches every x months or 1 to be kind of an extreme disparity. I think an ok starting point would be 2 patches every quarter and then one big patch every half a year or so. Dont forget anet themselves talked about doing more balance patches so they too see value in having them occur more often.

[The Ace.9105]

@Widmo.3186 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:We dont need more frequent balance updates. What we need is

PROPER

balance updates. I dont care if balance patch appears every 3 months, or even every 6 months as long as it clears all (most) the problems and if it kitten up somewhere, then there happen to be

POST

Balance Patch clearing what was made wrong.

In most causes community will notice problems during first week after update, ANet should stay around, read those threads and think whether there is actually a real problem or it is just a Q_Q l2p issue. That happened to zerker Arc Divider, maybe with bit of postpone, but still happened.

Dev sees one "Pls nerf rev thread"? Okay, random player got one-shoted and started whining on forum, happens. 4 threads during 2 weeks? Okay, maybe actually we should take a closer look and do sth about it.Atm I think most Q_Q threads are about rev, holo, scrapper, few about Spellbroken (Rampage) and Mezmer in general. While mezmer and teef are cried all over and over every patch, do you think other (lets say 4 classes) are getting nerfed/adjusted next patch? No, they are not. At best there will be Rampage nerf, one other class (lets say holo) nerf and during same time 3 other things (for example revert rev changes, core engi gets some sick condi adjust and DH gets +50% dmg overall) will get buffed.

Which makes -2 overperfoming things adjusted, +3 overperforming things added and 2 other left alone in their unhealthy state.Ends as one step backward instead of one step forward.

And it will go on and go on until Devs will start actually caring about balance state and listen to the community, at least the higher rank part of this community instead of taking 99% of threads as granted l2p and whining issues. Because atm it looks like that, like lost children wandering in the mist.

//Despite fact that this thread is in "general discussion" i talked solely about PvP, because there are the most issues. Lets be honest, what ppl care about is when you try to play PvP and get one-shoted by evade machine with 25k hp stealth and 12k healing potential (just an example, not that this monster actually exist). Problem of having 12k dps instead of 18k dps and making you switch from Core Ele to Weaver Ele is...not a problem. And dont even try dealing with this fact.

Your missing the point, the lack of 'proper' balance fixes is a side effect of low frequency changes. You will never ever get it right over time by making changes every 3 months.its a fundamentally flawed and dated approach that is proven not to work. Also agree its pvp where the damage is done with poor balancing. There are real people involved, not just npc's, and the focus on kitten damage on bosses is a big fail - but a separate discussion.

Ive cursorily read your posts above. Why do you try to convince all other ppl, that have different opinion than you, that you are the right one? Lol, just let them/us be.Irl Im working in lab, my specialization are genes and mutations. If you start working on genes of some organisms, deleting/adding/changing them, then you need to stick around because there might occur some unhealthy and far from controllable mutations. Here yes, frequency = quality because there are other factors than those intended by ppl.

In gw2 you dont have other factors than those made by developers. Game is stable, its neither evolving nor devolving. After changing things in balance patch there wont occur any mutations, the only thing that might happen is that some ppl invent a new build (that happened for example after Mirage nerf when Chrono got some attention, maybe "new build" is too much but lets say it just got more "popularized"). If u do a balance patch every 3 months and take care of

all

problems while listening to community, then you should get a proper quality. Ppl noticed that 3 classes are overperforming, we nerf them (bit enough, not to the ground) and see what happens. During first weeks community will say whether problem is solved or its not enough/went too far. Then ANet should add

Post Balance Patch

adjusting things.Example? Swipe. Half range for unblockable was really a bad deal. Most teefs that previously were playing d/p (me included) switched from d/p to s/d. So maybe we should consider community response and for example change 600 to 900/1k and leave/take back unblockable, after 1/2 weeks. Win-win situation.

Now lets see what could possibly happen with more frequent patches. Lets say every month. ANet wont get enough time to gather responses, consider them and make proper buffs/nerfs. Maybe during first few months it wont be so visible, but after some time there will occur situation where they have to handle bad decisions from last month, still not cleared situation of buffs/nerfs from 2 months ago and ofc add new buffs/nerfs from present month. And this will go on and on. More chaos, and this chaos is not a ladder.Thats one thing that could happen if they would listen to community. If they wouldnt then 1 month would be probably taken as not enough time to gather enough informations about state of the game so we would see at best only few skills adjusted, rest wouldn't be even touched because devs wouldn't be sure whether its OP or its not. As unhealthy as chaos described above.

Anet doesn't gather responses nor listen to them unless there's 6 months worth of crying in the forums. There was a feedback discord that consisted of legend players, content creators, ex esl, anet partners etc. They gave anet feedback for 4-5 months and made suggestions and ideas directly to the balance team and what ended up happening? Anet made the next balance that was supposed to have the feedback on them purely based on statistics and they had ignored every suggestion/feedback they had got and that discord died.

Anet has a balance schedule and they just look at the statistics and maybe use a week or 2 to make the changes slowly and then they push out the balance patch. That is all there is to it. The balance devs don't only work on balance but do other stuff as well so it's not a full time team. The balance comes from statistics mostly and then they have internal discussions between themselves on what they want to do. They don't gather the information about the state of the game nor they look at the things that should be the best things that should be adjusted.

[Obtena.7952]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? Are players going to be MORE satisfied because Anet put 10 patches in and got the same result if they only put in 1? I don't think people are being honest with themselves here ... desperate people rarely are.

We've seen imbalances, bugs, skill breaking issues go on for a long time, often spamming multiple patches without being adressed and in your opinion speed of tackling a problem in the case of anet doesnt garantee success.

If the goal is to adress a problem:It could take 10 patches over x months or it could take the 1 patch to be fixed, it could be adressed by the 1st patch of the 10 or the the 1 patch every x months could miss the mark, everyone of the 10 patches could possibly adress it over these x months or only the 1 patch over these x months could.

So basically what you are asking me is:Would i rather have 1/10th of the w8 between each patch for a maybe or the full w8 per patch for a maybe?

Id take the 1/10th of a w8, tho i consider having 10 patches every x months or 1 to be kind of an extreme disparity. I think an ok starting point would be 2 patches every quarter and then one big patch every half a year or so. Dont forget anet themselves talked about doing more balance patches so they too see value in having them occur more often.

So you just want more frequent and could care less about what the result is? I don't see the value of that. You still get the same result AND the risk is higher for bugs, unintended results, etc ... I mean, look at Soul Eater getting nerfed next Tuesday ... seems to me that's EXACTLY what the kind of scenarios you would see with more frequent patches.

[zealex.9410]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? Are players going to be MORE satisfied because Anet put 10 patches in and got the same result if they only put in 1? I don't think people are being honest with themselves here ... desperate people rarely are.

We've seen imbalances, bugs, skill breaking issues go on for a long time, often spamming multiple patches without being adressed and in your opinion speed of tackling a problem in the case of anet doesnt garantee success.

If the goal is to adress a problem:It could take 10 patches over x months or it could take the 1 patch to be fixed, it could be adressed by the 1st patch of the 10 or the the 1 patch every x months could miss the mark, everyone of the 10 patches could possibly adress it over these x months or only the 1 patch over these x months could.

So basically what you are asking me is:Would i rather have 1/10th of the w8 between each patch for a maybe or the full w8 per patch for a maybe?

Id take the 1/10th of a w8, tho i consider having 10 patches every x months or 1 to be kind of an extreme disparity. I think an ok starting point would be 2 patches every quarter and then one big patch every half a year or so. Dont forget anet themselves talked about doing more balance patches so they too see value in having them occur more often.

So you just want more frequent and could care less about what the result is? I don't see the value of that. You still get the same result AND the risk is higher for bugs, unintended results, etc ... I mean, look at Soul Eater getting nerfed next Tuesday ... seems to me that's EXACTLY what the kind of scenarios you would see with more frequent patches.

The risk of bugs is higher if they try to retain the size of balance patch but cut the w8ing time to 1/10th. Thats not what im asking, im asking for them to slim down the balance changes and instead focus of speed to make sure the big issues and imbalances dont go un addressed for long period of time.

Ofc my goal is to have problems fixed but my goal is also for those problem to not exist for months unadressed, spoiler the experience of players.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? Are players going to be MORE satisfied because Anet put 10 patches in and got the same result if they only put in 1? I don't think people are being honest with themselves here ... desperate people rarely are.

We've seen imbalances, bugs, skill breaking issues go on for a long time, often spamming multiple patches without being adressed and in your opinion speed of tackling a problem in the case of anet doesnt garantee success.

If the goal is to adress a problem:It could take 10 patches over x months or it could take the 1 patch to be fixed, it could be adressed by the 1st patch of the 10 or the the 1 patch every x months could miss the mark, everyone of the 10 patches could possibly adress it over these x months or only the 1 patch over these x months could.

So basically what you are asking me is:Would i rather have 1/10th of the w8 between each patch for a maybe or the full w8 per patch for a maybe?

Id take the 1/10th of a w8, tho i consider having 10 patches every x months or 1 to be kind of an extreme disparity. I think an ok starting point would be 2 patches every quarter and then one big patch every half a year or so. Dont forget anet themselves talked about doing more balance patches so they too see value in having them occur more often.

So you just want more frequent and could care less about what the result is? I don't see the value of that. You still get the same result AND the risk is higher for bugs, unintended results, etc ... I mean, look at Soul Eater getting nerfed next Tuesday ... seems to me that's EXACTLY what the kind of scenarios you would see with more frequent patches.

It's "couldn't care less", "could care less" makes no sense for the meaning you're trying to use it.

But yeah, more frequent updates might sound nice "on paper", but in reality they most probably wouldn't be as good as some people here claim.

[The Ace.9105]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Jski.6180 said:The faster you can brake up the meta the better. At best ppl are just asking for one way to play the game for months on end with longer time in-between updates.

This shows a big misunderstanding of the goals of balancing. It's not there to break up meta and meta never goes away either. Also, it is important to maintain so sense of continuity in a class. For the meta to 'break up', you need to smash something pretty hard.

Braking up meta is part of that goal of balancing.

You don't know if that is a goal of Anet's balancing. I can't actually think of a reason Anet would make that a goal of their balancing; just changing meta from one thing to another has really low value. Again, that sounds more like wishful thinking than an actual useful think to do. If you need a reminder of the 'goals' Anet sets for balance, you can check my sig.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:I am 99% sure that ANet would like to offer more balance updates, too. The question is: how do they pay for it, given the resource limitations and plans that they already have?

Like with most of the stuff they do for the game its an investent. They invest in faster balance with the hope it will lead to overall better balance and that will bring/retain more players.

This is more of that wishful thinking going on.... why would ANYONE at this point in the game think faster balancing efforts would lead to a result different than what we seen for the last 7 years? That doesn't make sense. If anything, if Anet is rushed to more frequent balancing patches ... I would expect WORSE results, not better.

The fact is this: balancing is a low value proposition because balance efforts isn't something players in this game value highly enough to invest in.

OH, it does make sense. You are wrong if you think that faster balance wouldn't make the game better when for example there was a clearly broken scourge spec after pof release and cause this game has a balance every 3-4 months that actually changes stuff and doesn't fix skill bugs. This killed the pvp scene even more. Imagine having a spec that kills ppl just by spamming instant abilities and that class is there for 3 months and after it gets nerfed it isn't nerfed enough and then there's another 3 months of that horror until they finally fix it after 6 months of just pure frustration.

What does this do to a game? Clearly, it's not making the people stay in the game.

Pvp scene in gw2 is pretty much dead solely just because of too slow and poor balance patches and nothing else.

As far as their balancing goes, the team works on balance a week or 2 before the patch and it's made purely from statistics and internal discussions on where they wanna go in the future. The rest of the 3-4 months the balance team works as part of other projects on anet.

The balance feedback discord that gave anet 4-5 months worth of balance suggestions was ignored completely and anet used purely statistics to balance. As a result the pvp and wvw are in a really bad shape and after seeing the recent balance preview it isn't getting any better.

Your general attitude makes me think you work for anet to just only buff forums and cause extreme toxicity to annoy people who actually want to get a better game. Nice try 5/5.